I'm taking a little survey here. I have two yes/no questions:
(1) Do you own any ToneCore pedals?
and if the answer to #1 is yes:
(2) Based on your experience, do you see yourself getting more?
I'm not looking to debate digital or anything like that. I'm really just looking for one of two super basic answers; either Yes & No, or Yes & Yes.
Thanks everyone! I appreciate it! 8)
Am I missing something Peter, or should there be a poll at the top of this post? If so, I'm not seeing anything.
Anyway, I don't own any...but I rarely buy pedals. :icon_biggrin:
Yes. Yes.
Doug
I don't own any but I would really like to get an Echo Park and maybe a Roto-machine. However, they are a little to expensive for me right now.
Yes (Echo Park)
Yes (Verbzilla)
1) I have a Liquaflange on the way...
BTW, Music 123 has a deal on some non-factory sealed units right now
http://www.music123.com/Guitar-Effects-q21d733o.music?o=5 (http://www.music123.com/Guitar-Effects-q21d733o.music?o=5)
2) I'll have to answer this one after I get the Liquaflange, but I might be interested in the Echo Park or Otto Filter, and to a lesser extent Verbzilla or Roto-Machine.
-- T. G. --
Not Yet...
Considering Echopark and liquaflange.
Yes, but they should make the body out of Titanium :-)
Yes. Yes.
NO / NO
(though it seems, that "no" is no answer...)
You missed the echo park thread a while back. I learned alot from that one. But I have yet to test drive one. Sounds pretty good. There was some powersupply issues. From what I understand you will get noise using a PS with other pedals. But as long as you use a dedicated PS for the echo park I understand unwanted noise is not an issue.
I own a boss dd-5 and i love it but recording I hate it. I am going to send it off to analogman to get the HI-Cut mod, which cut's the high's on the repeats so it sounds more like an analoge delay. Moral of the story the dd-5 repeats are identical to the dry signal, which is the problem I hear from most digital delay's. Sorry for being the thread terrorist and hijacking.
yes, maybe (liqua flange?)
Kerry M
no
QuoteYou missed the echo park thread a while back. I learned alot from that one. But I have yet to test drive one. Sounds pretty good. There was some powersupply issues. From what I understand you will get noise using a PS with other pedals. But as long as you use a dedicated PS for the echo park I understand unwanted noise is not an issue.
As a beta tester for Line 6, I tried to duplicate the noise and power supply problems with the Tonecore pedals. I was unable to do that under any circumstances using a whole collection of Tonecore pedals. I had the earliest Echo Park versions and never had any hiss... and I exchanged modules numerous times during the testing and none of them had the problem.
With regard to the power supplies, I have used OEM switching power supplies, the Line 6 adapter, a cheap Radio Shack adapter and more - then daisy-chained two Tonecores together, then two Tonecores with some Boss or Ibanez pedals and could not ever get the power supply hum issues.
That's not to say that some people did not expereince problems but I suspect that many of the alleged problems were in the pedalboard or guitar of the person trying them. It may be that there was a grounding issue with the persons guitar or amp?? I just know that I have never been able to duplicate any of the noise complaints though I have tried several times.
In my estimation, the whole issue has been VASTLY overblown. Maybe Mark can throw in some comments on his experiences with them.
regards, Jack
I don't have the breadth of experience with the Line 6 gear as Jack or the other beta-testers, but I have a roto-machine and have played with the liqua-flange at the store. I have not experienced any noise problems with either one of these- none, zip, nada, neither with the battery or wall-wart. Matter of fact, the roto-machine is pretty quiet and only gets a slight background hiss when you crank up the drive control, as you would normally expect.
After seeing some of these comments on other gear forums I've noticed that a lot of the complainaints are using multi-effect "pedalboard power supplies" and etc. I suspect that is the root of the problem in some cases. I power my stuff with individual wall-warts plugged into a power strip and have no problems at all.
Doug
I have not tested mine under the rigourous conditions that Jack has, but I have noticed no noise issues, and whatever hiss there may have been was WAY less than anything analog delivers, and way less than what I was getting on my Zoom unit or my DOD multi-FX floor unit. I have used mine only with very low-end "rehabilitated" wall-warts (translation: I added another cap for smoothing), and have experienced no bizarreness as a consequence of that. Given the high current demands of the unit, it may be the case that folks sharing a PS across several pedals "starve" the EP a bit o occasion, but that's obviously just a shot in the dark. They're not all idiots, but I'm not that confident, however, that the average musician would do the math and calculate what sort of current capabilities are needed in the PS to be shared across pedals. To be fair, not all stompboxes provide the sort of information that might be useful or easily accessible to do such calculations.
In the autumn of 2004, or maybe the winter of 2004-2005, the beta testers got a note from Line 6 indicating that a software upgrade had provided improved noise gate functioning and that we could/should return out modules for a quieter upgraded one. I did not until recently receive mine, and for a variety of reasons involving the customs people and Fedex and individual schedules spent a lengthy period between the old and new modules with no pedal to test. I would not trust my instincts in this instance, for comparison purposes. The new one is problem-free, though.
Suffice it to say, that they would not have sent us that note unless there were some initial customer complaints about the first production modules that warranted changes, and unless the changes had improved things. Some 15 months or so after their initial release, I would assume that all the initial first-run ones have been sold, or recalled or whatever. Having said that, however, if the only place you have found one is that local small-town music store that has had the same 4 pedals in the display case for the last 3 years, next to the polka sheet music and those 3 really bad Chinese amplifiers with the 6" speakers, it might be best to order yours from an outlet that has higher turnover of stock and is assured of having the most recent production ones. It's a bit like buying cigars or smokes - you buy them from a place that sells them fast.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 11, 2006, 10:28:15 AM
Given the high current demands of the unit, it may be the case that folks sharing a PS across several pedals "starve" the EP a bit o occasion, but that's obviously just a shot in the dark.
That's an excellent observation, Mark. Given that these dsp pedals are notorious battery killers, much moreso than the typical analog gear, I wonder if people take that into acct when they plug it into their pedal power pack.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 11, 2006, 10:28:15 AM
They're not all idiots, but I'm not that confident, however, that the average musician would do the math and calculate what sort of current capabilities are needed in the PS to be shared across pedals. To be fair, not all stompboxes provide the sort of information that might be useful or easily accessible to do such calculations.
One of the nice things I discovered when I got home with my roto-machine was that they did provide that info right there in the manual. In fact, I don't recall seeing the typical "must use authorized XXX co. power supply or all matter of hellfire will rain down upon you" statement in there. Instead the tone was more like "you can use our pwr supply or one that can handle this voltage and current - whatever...". Pretty refreshing for a big corporation. I was also surprised that my boss wall-warts had enough juice for this thing. I had already bought the L6 supply at the store before I knew this, but it's nice to know I could use the boss unit if I had to.
Doug
I haven't been following the debate/dialogue on other forums regarding this issue/nonissue. Do people mention the power context they find themselves in? E.g., do we know what the current rating of the wallwarts used is, and/or what the current requirements of any concurrently used pedals might be?
I say this because there may be a real noise issue that only arises under certain conditions. It would be useful to identify those conditions accurately so that people can avoid them.
Mark, I was following a thread at TGP here: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=101875 (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=101875)
Funny, after you read it you realize it was basically only one guy complaining (and he did have some specific info about his power setup) and some others chiming in that either didn't like Line6, DSP, didn't get along with their parents when they were kids, etc, etc... In any case, I agree with Jack in that it is "VASTLY overblown". In fact, if you read through the thread (I think) there are more people that really like the tonecore pedals vs. a small yet vocal minority who don't. Typical internet stuff...
But anyway, your idea about current starving gave me an idea and I did some investigation. It appears that according to the info provided by the original poster about his power box (pedalpower II) he may have been on the hairy edge wrt the current reqts of the tonecore pedals. (Read my post at the end of the thread for the details.) I suspect what we are seeing are people coming to terms with the vastly higher current reqts of DSP, and not really understanding what they are seeing yet.
Doug
I've probably mentioned it before, but there is a concept in social psychology, referred to as the "availability heuristic". The basic principle is that humans estimate the frequency with which something has occurred, based on how easily examples come to mind. As heuristics go, that's not a bad one since when things happen all the time examples will come to mind very easily.
The problem arises that when one or two people go on and on about someting, providing robust memories for us that pop into our heads quickly, we overestimate the frequency. This leads to another social phenomenon, described in the typical intro psych text, called "false consensus", or the impression that there is widespread agreement about something. Should one friend go to a restaurant and go on and on about how lousy the food and service was, chances are pretty good that if someone asked us on another occasion if that restaurant was any good, we would be likely to say "I've heard that it's not very good from a bunch of people".
That's one of the problems with forums that function as gossip pages, in the way that HC and others do. A couple of people go on and on about something and others come to the mistaken impression that either product X experiences such problems all the time, or alternatively that product Y makes everyone happy all the time. In both cases the actual frequency of consumer satisfaction or dissatisfaction may be highly overestimated.
You got to watch out for the weaknesses of the human mind! :icon_wink:
Unfortunately I think Ton was a victim of the same thing with the Hoax...
Doug
I've heard it said more than once that you can tell people 999 good things and 1 bad thing, and they'll center on the bad thing, forgetting the good that out numbers it by 1000:1. This is why the tabloid papers (and all major commercial media) are so negative-centric.
To head back towards positive; Thanks for the information everyone. 8)
I talked to Jeorge at Line 6 and he said that the noise problems were supply related and only reported by those who tried to share supplies. ToneCore pedals must contain a 3.3V power supply for the DSP and that's going to be a switcher given the efficiency of such designs. I see opportunity for ground loop noise there, but not when each pedal gets it's own (isolated) supply. He mentioned people using carbon-zinc batteries too. Those have discharge curves that digital stuff does not appreciate.
I compared my Memory Man to the Echo Park and was amazed at just how much noise my Memory was emitting. WOW!
Oh well.... it must mask my mistakes. ;D
Yes - Verbzilla.
No - taking Verbzilla back to store.
The Verbzilla eats up batteries too fast. It sounds good with my new pedal steel, but takes up more floor space than I would like (pedal steels don't leave much room for pedals). For simple playing into my amp, I will use my Boss RV-3, which doesn't sound as good, but takes less room and has a much longer battery life. For recording, I can program better reverbs than the Verbzilla in either MAX/MSP or Supercollider. The Verbzilla algorithms are nice and dense, but they don't have the swirl I like - I prefer to add a bit of modulation in select places so that no discernable echo pattern can be heard, even with infinite repeat.
Sean Costello
QuoteI talked to Jeorge at Line 6 and he said that the noise problems were supply related and only reported by those who tried to share supplies.
I daisy-chained two Tonecores with two other cheap pedals on a single inexpensive switching power supply and could not duplicate the noise problems people were having with them... I still have one of the original base units that has not been modified to add the extra power supply filtering and it gives me no problems. I do believe that someone with a big pedalboard could have some grounding issues though.
Also, these things eat up batteries very fast! Sometimes in just minutes! I can attribute some of the problems that were reported to low battery power, as a player would put in a new battery and when the pedal started sounding funny 15 minutes later - he probably would not think about the battery.
regards, Jack
Yes (Echo Park)
Yes (Roto machine, Liqua flange)
They shouldn't even bother putting a battery compartment on a DSP pedal. Batteries are effectively useless with DSP. Everyone needs to learn that and get on the same page wrt the power requirements of these things. Don't buy a DSP pedal without planning on powering it externally.
Doug
Quote from: Doug_H on January 12, 2006, 09:13:21 AM
They shouldn't even bother putting a battery compartment on a DSP pedal. Batteries are effectively useless with DSP. Everyone needs to learn that and get on the same page wrt the power requirements of these things. Don't buy a DSP pedal without planning on powering it externally.
Doug
Yes and no. Not every music store is the sort of place where you can say "Can I try that out?" and the salesperson tears themselves away from talking gear, gigs, and gals with his buddy long enough to find you a suitable wallwart and available outlet behind the wall of amps. In some respects, the inclusion of a battery life of any minimal sort is to permit the salesperson to say "Yeah", hand you the pedal, and you plug in with the two patch cords draped over the amp. If you can try the pedal out, there is a good chance that you might buy it.
Keep in mind that the Tone core series uses essentially the same dock for a variety of pedals, even though the DSP circuitry may be asked to complete tasks of varying degrees of demandingness depending on the effect and mode. The more work is required to accomplish the effect, the faster the battery drain. You can stick a battery in the same dock, with the Tap Tremolo module plugged in (also stereo outs), and it will last much longer than a Verbzilla or Liqui-Flange module in the very same dock. I haven't compared the various distortin modules with respect to battery life, but I imagine there is variation there too, with some of the modules delivering much longer battery life than others, despite the same hardware.
The battery, then, is a power option that works better in some instances, and worse in others, but since the pedals use the same dock for a range of modules, that option will seem useless in some instances. Not sure what's worse, omitting a battery compartment when it could be useful for future modules in the line, or including it when you know some modules will eat batteries like popcorn.
Quote from: Doug_H on January 12, 2006, 09:13:21 AM
They shouldn't even bother putting a battery compartment on a DSP pedal. Batteries are effectively useless with DSP. Everyone needs to learn that and get on the same page wrt the power requirements of these things. Don't buy a DSP pedal without planning on powering it externally.
Tell that to my Boss RV-3! I run this thing for hours at a time on batteries. In fact, I can't remember when I last changed the battery. My Boss PH-3 doesn't run as long on batteries, but it can be plugged in for several hours on batteries. It is strange that the PH-3 uses more battery power, as the phaser algorithms should be simpler than the reverbs.
I think that the problem is selecting a DSP based on CPU power, while putting power consumption at a lower priority. The Motorola DSP has plenty of computing power, but is pretty clearly a battery hog. The Blackfin DSPs I work with supposedly have low power consumption modes, but I don't know if they would work with a 9 volt battery for that long - they seem to be targeted at things like MP3 players that use rechargable batteries.
I'm sure that Line 6 took all of the above into account when designing the Tone Core pedals. My guess is that they needed the extra cycles for some of their algorithms. Any of their pedals that have overdrive or distortion (the rotary simulator, as well as the tape simulator) will be using a lot of cycles for the oversampling.
Sean Costello
I don't own one yet but I have been considering the Uber Metal for a while.
Brad
http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2588 (http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2588)
A-HA!!!
I asked Jeorge and Angelo whether there were plans to do that a couple of times. My questions were prompted by the ease of access to the modules, and also their sealed form. In other words, there was so little risk to damaging the dock or module that I figured customer access HAD to be in the plans. But they were silent on the matter. I was holding out hope, but understood that there was still plenty of production cost-effectiveness for using the format and that it didn't HAVE to be targetting user replacement down the road, even though it could. So I let it drop.
Late last year, those of us in the beta-test team received an inquiry about whether we were interested or perhaps knew of those interested in developing 3rd party modules. (No, I'm not going to. I know nothing about DSP programming) The idea was that the docks provided a platform which could easily accommodate other people's ideas about interesting effects using the same DSP. In a sense, the R&D or the dock system itself gets paid off by allowing others to exploit it under license. Not only does it provide Line 6 with revenue, but it extends the lifespan of the dock/DSP system as a product line without them having to do much R&D themselves to renew it. It's what they might call an "evergreen" product. If the consumer could buy new and interesting effects without having to invest in new docks for every little effect, they would be more inclined to at least feel justified in buying a couple of docks, as opposed to being shy to commit to that system.
The proof, of course, will be in the eating of the pudding, and the range, inventiveness, and sonic quality of any 3rd party modules that might enter the market. I'm gathering that they (Line 6) got enough of a nibble from their initial inquiry to justify making this move. This also works for those who have the expertise to develop DSP-based effects, but lack the resources and time to develop the hardware system that must necessarily accompany it. So, in a sense, everyone wins, Line 6, developers and startups, retailers, and consumers. Early last year I old Jeorge that the modularity of the Tone Core line was probably the most brilliant aspect about it (the effects themselves aren't too shabby, either!). I'm convinced now more than ever. Incidentally, it would not surprise me a bit if prices eventually came down if these things took off. Especially if the range of 3rd party modules was extensive enough that retailers had to do something to move stock.
And just so folks know, mono modules will work on stereo docks, so buy the stereo docks to be able to use stereo modules when you want. It's the stereo on these things that really brings out their best.
This is good marketing strategy, both for the company and the consumer. It's definitely more likely that I'd buy a few more modules than I would whole pedals. They get more sales, and I get more sounds!
I did receive my Liqua-Flange BTW, and am quite pleased with it. No noise at all yet, but I've only used it with a single supply so far, not on a pedal supply "chain". It's somewhat inspiring yet daunting how all of the controls act quite differently in the three models. I say "inspiring" because the possiblities are quite extensive, and I say "daunting" because I've already hit on a few cool sounds in my tweaking that I've been unable to get back to! I gotta start writing this stuff down...
-- T. G. --
Sweet...now I can get the Verbzilla module. I've already got the Echo Park and Tap Tremelo. They need to make a single base that will hold 3 or more modules.
Good job Line6!
Yeah, I might get the Rotary emulator. I broke down and kept the Verbzilla. It does sound really nice with my pedal steel.
Sean Costello
Quote from: ShoeGazer on January 20, 2006, 08:10:21 PM
Sweet...now I can get the Verbzilla module. I've already got the Echo Park and Tap Tremelo. They need to make a single base that will hold 3 or more modules.
If it has a studly power supply, that would be great. I'm eyeing the Verbzilla as well as the Liqua-Flange to go with my EP.
Kerry M
I talked with Jeorge briefly about a multi-core dock, but he said that they didn't have any motivation to produce one at that time.
I have an Echo Park which I like very much, but it's not for 9V batteries ;). To be fair, I'm sure not going to expect a general purpose DSP to be too light on power consumption. Special purpose chips can cut the transistor count and power consumption by fairly vast amounts. The tape emulation algorithms in the Echo Park seem to really chow the power down.
Thanks for all the replies everyone! 8) 8) 8)
1) Yes ( tap tremolo,Space Chorus,Crunchtone,Roto Machine )
2) Yes ( Liqua Flange module - when and if available ! )
The only dissapointing one is the "Crunchtone" which I tried to sell twice on Ebay and had no bids !
MM.
no , i don't have one i have 2 :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:
- tom
i wonder if they'll start selling dummy modules, for individuals to put what they want on them... that would be wonderful for the system, because that could lead to downloading effects from the internet, saving them on pedals, and trying new codes whenever they please... maybe a subscription based effects system?
I strongly doubt that. Makes no commercial sense.
Besides, no manufacturer with that much reputation to risk would want to have substandard or unreliable effects walking around parading in their trademark chassis. Indeed, the very reason behind trademark law is to prevent others from producing inferior products whose resemblance to the trademark owner's product detracts from their reputation and consequently attractiveness to the consumer.
Although they (Line 6) are toying with the idea of having 3rd party modules available, I think you can safely bet that no license would be granted to anything that did not meet the standards they have set for the Tone Core line. The reason why Jack, myself, Aron, and many others were asked to be beta-testers was to assure that there was no "mystery combination" of control settings that resulted in problems before the product's release. This IS a pedal that uses software, after all, so there is always the possibility for bugs in the programming under exotic conditions. We all received a note asking us to put the Liqui-Flange through some rather bizarre (at least to me) moves to verify whether a reported glitch was reproducable or not (wasn't in my case, anyways). If you think a company that goes to that extent is going to permit just anyone to plunk a hasty piece of weekend coding into what is visibly THEIR pedal, and then trot it around town where others will get a quick peek and possibly interpret it as a formal Line 6 offering....think again.
So, nahh, my money says it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.