DIYstompboxes.com

DIY Stompboxes => Building your own stompbox => Topic started by: MetalGod on October 15, 2006, 07:16:43 AM

Title: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: MetalGod on October 15, 2006, 07:16:43 AM
Just wondering what the best way to dispose of Ferric Chloride is - a student friend said Bicarbonate Of Soda would neutralise it.

Anyone?
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Seljer on October 15, 2006, 07:33:09 AM
I've been wondering the same thing, I've got a bucket full of used etchant under my sink.

though to what I know of highschool chemistry, baking soda neutralises acids so I guess it should work.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Thomas P. on October 15, 2006, 08:00:21 AM
Where I live this kind of waste to collected once every half year by the "ökomobil" or you can take it directly to the waste facilities.
Dumping it into the toilet would be illegal (even though you neutralize it)! But that can differ from country to country.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: majormono on October 15, 2006, 08:19:18 AM
Sure, you can neutralise the hydrolysated Fe-III-Chloride with a base (NaOH, don't forget to check the pH!) but the environmental problem is actually the Copper (which you usually can't analyze at home, limit is 500µg/l here in germany... not very much!). And don't forget that you may theoretically generate toxic chloride gas in the process - one reason why I  use sodium peroxodisulfate.
Best thing: Bring noxious substances clearly marked to a disposal center without messing with them, alternatively the chemistry department of a university may help (if you know someone there ;-).
Appears trivial, but toxic waste (and that's what it is) is nothing to take lightly - your health and good ole mother nature will thank you. 

Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: MetalGod on October 15, 2006, 08:26:24 AM
There is no waste collection service in the UK that will pickup chemical waste from your home.  I may look into this further but I think the neutralising of the CF should be enough - it's not like I'm using gallons of the stuff every week.  Just wanted to see how everyone else got rid of this stuff.

As for health reasons - I use a face mask and goggles when dealing with this stuff.  I've breathed this stuff in once and it wasn't a very nice experience (eyes were watering too).

 8)
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Horace on October 15, 2006, 08:28:22 AM
probably best to take it to a waste management agency....or grow some funky crystals http://www.raphnet.net/divers/cristaux/cristaux_en.php .
seriously, this might be a far better alternative to ferric chloride and reuseable http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/PCB/etching_CuCl/index.html
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Mark Hammer on October 15, 2006, 08:36:55 AM
Baking soda (NOT baking powder) will produce a chemical reaction with ferric chloride that will render the solution relatively harmless to the environment.  It is how I have been disposing of my etchant for decades now.

Note the following, though:
The thing about the etchant is that it may LOOK completely treated when it isn't.  You may have just a small residual film at the bottom of the container, and when you dump a few tablespoons of soda on it, it starts foaming like crazy.  You will want to keep applying the soda until the rust-coloured mess you have is fairly dry in texture.  Once you have turned it from wet and dangerous into dry and harmless, you can simply pour all those crumbly bits into a garbage bag and set it out with all the other household waste.

Finally, etchant can often be extended for use a bit longer.  If you have a way of safely storing and transferring the stuff to another container, let your bath sit idly for a couple of days (at least) so that all the copper precipitates are sitting like a thick mud at the bottom.  GENTLY pour the still-useful etchant from the top into another container.  Now you can dump your baking soda into the thick stuff to finish using up whatever molecules of ferric chloride are still around. 
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: markm on October 15, 2006, 08:45:34 AM
Before I started etching everything I come in contact with  :icon_twisted:  I used to just dump it into the pot and flush but now, with enclosure etching and circuit boards, I have been saving it in a jar. I think I may try your method Mark, sounds like a good plan.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: R.G. on October 15, 2006, 09:03:56 AM
Once it's been neutralized by baking soda, you can use the remaining etchant liquid and some additional water to mix up a part of a bad of ready mixed concrete. This sets into a lump that's environmentally benign. Or you can make a garden wall with etchant-bricks.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: petemoore on October 15, 2006, 09:12:41 AM
  Isn't there some 'precision cut' dremel that could cut traces...better yet LAzer cutting with a precision lazer controller or maybe a lazer template so the whole board can be zapped across but only where the template allows the light to pass will be cut...
  Not to be contrare' and hijack the thread, but all that chemical schtuff seems a little bit 'klunky'...Dirty, alot to do, mess with, and observe about it, adding more chemicals etc....I know some of that stuff ends up as 'drain cleaner', or 'weed killer' when it shouldn't.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: GibsonGM on October 15, 2006, 09:37:45 AM
Hi Guys,

I used to work as an environmental consultant...all the negative effects of industry on the environment got me out of that!  I did learn that (as majormono said) limits for releases to the environment of substances such as copper are VERY low.  500 micrograms per liter in his case, similar in the US. I think you might approach that level after a few boards. 

What that means is that if you dump this in your yard, and there's a well nearby, you could easily contaminate it.  Or, if someone goes to sell the house, and a guy like me in my former life does some soil or water tests (and it happens more than you might think!), we'd find it.  Then we would dig up something like 50 cubic yards of your yard to dispose of the wasted soil.  If it's in the groundwater, we'd have to pump and treat that, too.  Makes your property worth about nothing afterwards  ;)  Very, very expensive, too!

Please keep in mind the acute problems of using etchant (burns, eye & lung damage, etc), but also the chronic, long-term things...I know all you guys take the spent solution somewhere to be properly disposed of.  :) Mark Hammer's method is great, I highly endorse that level of responsibility   ;D

Like with anything else in the modern world, a little thought goes a long way.  There's no reason to stop etching, just do some thinking ahead of time.

Rock on!
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: puretube on October 15, 2006, 10:45:18 AM
Mark: does that 7-10x volume foam
reduce to normal, after drying up?
(or can you make it smaller, mechanically?)
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: petemoore on October 15, 2006, 11:54:47 AM
  I just had a full glass of fresh, clean-er-ed, filtered tap water....ahhh nothing better than fresh pure water.
   What Mark Hammer described as a way to deal with this...could be news to etchant dumpers.
  I've not used copperless perfboard [nameword?], because I couldn't figure out a good way to connect/mount sockets without the copper pads.
   +8 for perfboard and RTS PCB's...not really that much more time/trouble compared to etching...I can only guess, 'cause I've not etched a board.
  Makes me wonder how much etchant our group has dumped down the toilet in a recent unit of time...not to sound too hostile when referring to those who are hostile to the environment but..accountability by guilt?
 
   
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Peter Snowberg on October 15, 2006, 12:12:53 PM
I stopped etching my own boards a long time ago. Board houses recycle their etched copper (usually using it to plate additional copper onto boards.

I live very close to Silicon Valley and the environmental damage the electronics industry has caused here is massive.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Dirk_Hendrik on October 15, 2006, 12:29:38 PM
Looking on how eager people on this board tend to be on intellectual property I'd say at least the same amount but preferably more attention might be permanenty be directed to this toxic waste issue.

GibsonM makes some very stiking remarks towards the impact of non-responsive disposal of used chemicals and the semi-long term effects of doing so. Therefore I'd say that the environmental awareness raised in this thread suggests a sticky saying something similar in a general perspective.

Thanks for this thread MetalGod.
Title: i need some help...
Post by: pit on October 15, 2006, 12:38:41 PM
i'm new here
can you help me by telling me how to start?
i need some ideas and directions....
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: markm on October 15, 2006, 12:46:18 PM
Since I began etching more and more, I have saved the spent stuff because I did not want to do harm to the environment.
I have the convenience of a HazMat disposal near me and I intend to bring them my spent FC.
This is certainly an eye-opening topic for sure.
Although, what was industry doing before the environmentalists stepped in?  :icon_eek:
We here are probably just a drop in the bucket  :icon_wink: but, it's a serious problem none-the-less.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: puretube on October 15, 2006, 12:49:12 PM
In our town, the tap water is purer than most botteled "table waters" that are for sale in this country.
I want to stay it that way,
a.o., cause it`s the same water, the local breweries use for their beer.

One way to minimize the waste-material I have bring to the local toxic disposal collection
centre,
is to:
LAYOUT the to-be-etched PCBs such,
that only little copper needs to be etched away.

No "spaghetti" layouts, but nice large groundplanes
and broad supply-rails,
with distances between pads & traces as small as the circuit allows.

I`ve proposed that to "the industry", where I could...

makes your etchant last longer, too.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: markm on October 15, 2006, 12:58:00 PM
LAYOUT the to-be-etched PCBs such,
that only little copper needs to be etched away.

No "spaghetti" layouts, but nice large groundplanes
and broad supply-rails,
with distances between pads & traces as small as the circuit allows.

I`ve proposed that to "the industry", where I could...

makes your etchant last longer, too.

That's been my attempt in my Layouts.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: gez on October 15, 2006, 01:02:46 PM
Once it's been neutralized by baking soda, you can use the remaining etchant liquid and some additional water to mix up a part of a bad of ready mixed concrete. This sets into a lump that's environmentally benign. Or you can make a garden wall with etchant-bricks.

I do something similar: mix it with plaster of paris then bin it. 

Metal God, in the UK you can buy a 'safe' kit made by Seno (Rapid sell it, and perhaps ESR) that comes with a bag of plaster/neutraliser.  Although it looks a bit of a rip-off when you get it through - a bag and some rods?? - the etchant that comes in the kit is better than the stuff I've bought anywhere else so it's worth it for that alone, plus it is a very clean way of etching.

http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?kw=seno%20etchant&tier1=Tools%2c+Fasteners+%26+Production+Equipment&tier2=PCB+Equipment&tier3=Etching&tier4=Seno+GS+etching+system&moduleno=29446
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: petemoore on October 15, 2006, 01:46:12 PM
We here are probably just a drop in the bucket.
  Aren't All drops in all buckets just 'other' drops in the bucket, if taken one at a time?
  Is the same is true for a drop in the eye?
  Those questions are harsh, but so is F.C.
  Markm, or anyone who believes in F, I mean B ucket theory...How big is 'the bucket' ?
 
 
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Dirk_Hendrik on October 15, 2006, 01:55:07 PM
Especcially since all those bucket drops probably contaminate more than those few companies who dump their waste irresponsibly.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: petemoore on October 15, 2006, 01:59:51 PM
  Hate to be a nose rubber, but who's going to clean that Schtuff up...nobody?
  WAYYY Easier to not 'dispose' of it improperly...WAYYYYY WAYYYY WAYYY X100X easier.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Hiwatt25 on October 15, 2006, 02:42:19 PM
I just finished neutralizing the Ferric Chloride I used for the board I just posted about.  God I love arm and hammer.  Is there anything that stuff won't do?  You can clean silver, brush your teeth and neutralize deadly chemicals with it.  I poured the baking soda in sloooooowly and sure enough, I ended up with what looked like a very bad, very thick marinara sauce. 

I originally come from Seattle where everyone is an earth nut and it makes me feel good to know my hobby isn't going to kill any indigenous fish or wildlife or....me.  Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Seljer on October 15, 2006, 03:06:09 PM
you only used it for one board?  ??? you can save the stuff and reuse it for a couple more before its all used up
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: gez on October 15, 2006, 04:16:14 PM
Or a lot more if you don't mind each board taking longer than the last.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: MetalGod on October 15, 2006, 04:38:29 PM
Thanks for all the replies.  I'm really happy that this thread has at least caused a few people to consider how they dispose of this stuff.

 8)
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: markm on October 15, 2006, 05:40:12 PM
Here's my spent FC.

(http://aronnelson.com/gallery/albums/album24/FXFC.jpg)
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Hiwatt25 on October 15, 2006, 07:56:00 PM
Crap!  Oh well, I'll know next time.  That stuff gets down right unpleasant when it's finally dry and crumbly.  :o
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Dave_B on October 15, 2006, 08:45:14 PM
  Isn't there some 'precision cut' dremel that could cut traces...
Sort of.  Some people are building CNC machines for PCB's.  Here's one of many examples on the 'net.  http://cq.cx/pcb-router.pl (http://cq.cx/pcb-router.pl) For people on dial-up, the page has a lot of images.  This photo (http://cq.cx/pics/next-milling-machine-iso.jpg) will give you an idea.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: petemoore on October 16, 2006, 12:33:29 AM
  Well I'm feeling a little better about this subject.
  I'd feel great if I knew none of this stuff got dumped.
  It appears many take the "Extra Kudos" Environmental Preservation steps to PCB production.
  Kind of a toxic subject, I wish I hadn't stepped in it.
  ...And got a bit activist when jumping on Markm about 'drop in the bucket' ...please accept my apologies...it appears your'e taking the time and dealing with the toxic waste...KUDOS !!!
  None of this entered into the water supply is the message I'd like to remain pristine.
 
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: markm on October 16, 2006, 07:16:49 AM
No need to apologize to me at all.
Unfortunately, what I do with this hobby I generate more waste than perhaps the average person but, I handle it properly as well.


Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: GibsonGM on October 16, 2006, 08:24:09 AM
Aww, don't feel bad guys, LOL!  I'm a little green, but I was working FOR companies that pollute, keeping them in compliance. Saw a lot of 'negative externalities'...and my company was very selective on what they 'saw'.  One thing I learned...there's always a down-side when we use chemicals.  FeCl is no worse than mineral spirits or muriatic acid over the long haul, and the amt. of copper taken from a board isn't huge.   I'm more pointing towards the property damage end of things than health.  The health risk is immediate and decreases over time...the copper build-up, iron and cl components accumulate over time.
 
So, if you would be ok to paint something out in your yard, you have the environmental skills to etch boards, lol.  Just take Mr. Hammer's advice, use the baking soda, and don't dump it on the ground!  ;)  A couple of phone calls might locate a good place to take it, or just dry it up & in the trash it goes.  Photographers have similar problems, on a larger scale (they use silver, very bad!), and manage to get by...
Good topic, worth talking about  :)
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: sfr on October 16, 2006, 08:40:42 AM
In my area, there's a big truck that drives to towns in the county on various days of the month and picks up hazardous waste for free.  Things like old paint, used auto fluids, cleaning chemicals, all sorts of stuff, and takes care of it for you.   All you need to do is make sure it's in a decent container and properly labelled.  I believe there's a limit of how much you can bring, to try and keep businesses from taking advantage of the free disposal, but it's convenient.  They also take hazardous chemicals at several of the waste disposal sites, although there is a small fee.  (Depending on the quantity.  For the amount I bring, they often don't bother to charge me - they're mostly just happy that it's not getting dumped down a drain.)

I had never heard of any of this stuff at all until I called up the fine folks at the dump, who directed me to the county waste district, and asked them "what can I do with this?" they where more than happy to point me in the right directions, and gave me several options.  I'm sure there are similar situations in many places.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: RLBJR65 on October 16, 2006, 09:31:19 AM
You need to find out  how that truck disposes of those chemicals. I used to work at a machine shop where we rebuilt engines. The owner was paying a disposal company to pick up the used oil, solvent etc. Years later he found out that the stuff was being shipped in tanker trucks to somewhere in NewJersey where it was diluted with sea water to a legal parts per million mixture then dumped in to the Atlantic!!!! All totally legal but not very environmentally friendly.

Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: petemoore on October 16, 2006, 10:49:26 AM
In my area, there's a big truck that drives to towns in the county on various days of the month and picks up hazardous waste for free.
  Great idea...I wish we had that around here.
  I worked as a mechanic, once every two weeks or so, about 50 gallons of hydraulic jack oil [for the lift] would be 'added', because of a leaky cylinder in the jack...where did the other 50 gallons go? Anti-Freeze drained into the drain instead of into the recycle container...etc. Lots Of Environmentally Unfriendly acitivities went on there, I asked if the Jacks' seal could be repaired, citing that it's probably cheaper to just fix the thing than to frequently reload it with new hydraulic oil [as well as making the lift safe again, it would get to bouncing the front end of the car up/down...]...it got fixed 3 days later, before I had to mention informing the EPA. I don't think the manager liked it and I was gone 3 weeks after that...it's hard to hold people 'in charge' responsible, especially when they don't do it themselves, often you have to 'become the antagonist' first..getting them to admit they fight to pollute without the influence getting turned into 'fightin' words' is difficult.
  In the early days of oil exploration in Ohio [1970's- 80's] Brine dumping was common, sick people, cows, and polluted streams got people mad. Dumpers caught got hammered down hard, and many dumpers got put out of business as a result, the other result was the environment, cows and people were allowed to become healthy again. It is hard to watch every stream all day and night, indefinitely...
 
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Pushtone on October 16, 2006, 12:41:58 PM
Great topic. I'm very concerned about all the etching going on around here and no talk about best practices.

I pour it back into the container it comes in. When it's spent the container is marked as "USED".

I contacted a recycle. Nice folks. They offered to take it for no charge as I generate a small amount compared to their reg customers.
I plan on dropping off several small containers when I get the chance. It's about an 1.5 hour drive.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Mark Hammer on October 16, 2006, 02:21:45 PM
1) The number of sincere and conscientious responses from people who inquired about safe disposal is gratifying.

2) Safe disposal by municipal hazmat folks iscommendable, but far better to render the hazardous materials NONhazardous and make their job easier.  The "baking soda solution" (NOT my idea, incidentally, just something I read about somewhere a while back) permits an otherwise difficult substance to become benign and as treatable a waste product as your coffee grounds and poop.

3) Note that a number of other things around your house are also made from copper that can be etched by ferric chloride.  Most notably, the plumbing you flush it down!  So, even if you cared not a whit for the future, drinking water, and subsequent generations, the potential plumbing bills arising from irresponsible use of ferric chloride can be substantial.  That alone is reason enough to sate its hunger for copper by filling it up on sodium bicarbonate.


QUESTION:  I've never worked with any of the alternate etchants.  What sorts of disposal problems do they present, and what (if any) are preferable methods for safe disposal?
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: RLBJR65 on October 16, 2006, 04:25:36 PM
Quote
  I worked as a mechanic, once every two weeks or so, about 50 gallons of hydraulic jack oil [for the lift] would be 'added', because of a leaky cylinder in the jack...where did the other 50 gallons go?

Pete I think everyone of those darn old lifts leaked! At least every one that I ever used. Yuck! One of the worst things I ever did was getting down in the pit to help remove one for repair. Some of the nastiest slimy smelly goop you have ever seen down there. I'm sure a lot of the oil was leaching into the ground to. BTW the owner of that lift didn't decide to fix it until a brand new pickup got bounced off and landed on to its side. He didn't give a rats behind about the environmental issues. Actually neither did I back then, to young and dumb. Good for you for taking a stand!

Quote
QUESTION:  I've never worked with any of the alternate etchants.  What sorts of disposal problems do they present, and what (if any) are preferable methods for safe disposal?

Mark thats a very good question! I was going to pose that question awhile back since I have never used anything else either. I got about half way through the posts here concerning etchants and then got side tracked:( Lazy? A.D.D.? C.R.S? don't know which. Anyway my intention was to gather as much info as possible about other etchants that are out there, have a list with safety concerns, ease of use, mixing, pros and cons, safe / proper disposal etc. I was thinking something that could be put in the WIKI or FAQ page for all to use.

Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Austin73 on October 16, 2006, 04:44:45 PM
Great topic chaps will bare this in mind if i ever get round to making pcb's! ha ha But my god the CNC route is a bit sledgehammer cracking the nut kinda thing don't you think!

Aus
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Dave_B on October 17, 2006, 03:04:54 PM
But my god the CNC route is a bit sledgehammer cracking the nut kinda thing don't you think!
For most of us, definately.  It would be a good way to go if you were making PCB's like GGG or Tonepad, since it could also drill the holes for you.  For me it's a solution looking for a problem.   :)
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: orgaqualia on October 17, 2006, 03:34:56 PM
I have a friend in the graphics industry who has a printer that uses actual metal foil for things like fake gold leaf on wedding invitations. I've often thought about the potential of that particular procedure. I would imagine that if you could get it to work on bare board you would be rather limited to small current designs as the film is very thin. But still, I keep thinking that there has to be a better way. all of these chemicals seem so primitive...

PS whats the best way to get rid of the developer for photo resist boards?
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: MikeH on October 17, 2006, 03:38:39 PM
Aww, don't feel bad guys, LOL!  I'm a little green, but I was working FOR companies that pollute, keeping them in compliance. Saw a lot of 'negative externalities'...and my company was very selective on what they 'saw'.  One thing I learned...there's always a down-side when we use chemicals.  FeCl is no worse than mineral spirits or muriatic acid over the long haul, and the amt. of copper taken from a board isn't huge.   I'm more pointing towards the property damage end of things than health.  The health risk is immediate and decreases over time...the copper build-up, iron and cl components accumulate over time.
 
So, if you would be ok to paint something out in your yard, you have the environmental skills to etch boards, lol.  Just take Mr. Hammer's advice, use the baking soda, and don't dump it on the ground!  ;)  A couple of phone calls might locate a good place to take it, or just dry it up & in the trash it goes.  Photographers have similar problems, on a larger scale (they use silver, very bad!), and manage to get by...
Good topic, worth talking about  :)

I used to be in Environmental consulting as well.  If you neutralize your etchants and turn them into bricks or whatever, big kudos to you.  But if you've flushed a little in the past, don't feel too bad; that's absolutely nothing in comparison to what industry has done to the environment.  The amount of etchant waste that comes from DIY pedal makers probably accounts for one trillionth of the polution on the planet.  But still, I'd certainly encourage anyone to dispose of toxic materials in a safe and environmentally responible manner.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Transmogrifox on October 18, 2006, 04:35:42 PM
Yeah.  I walk down to the stream behind my house and dump it in.  It's only a few hundred yards to the ocean...and we all know that dilution is the solution to pollution.  :)

Actually, I don't do that.  My last bit of etchant went out with my motor oil to HazMat.  Who knows if they dispose of it any better than dumping it in a creek, but at least they make me feel like a responsible citizen for using their services...
Title: newsflash...
Post by: puretube on March 09, 2007, 07:31:47 AM
WOW: there is a nice lake here, right outside of town (~20 minutes by bike).

A pond were carpers are being bred (breeded?), where you can go skating when winters are like they used to be,
and where on summer weekends thousands of inhabitants go swimming, picknicking, bbq-ing, sailing
and we had an annual 3-day "Sea-Rock-Festival" there, too for 20 years...

The last 3 or 4 summers there was a blue-algal bloom each time when the weather was at its best,
and hence swimming was prohibited for weeks...


NOW they (the municipal government) found a solution to fight the problem
(which is mainly being caused by too much phosphates from the surrounding agricultural fields):

they actually are gonna dump Fe-Cl3 into the lake:

https://secure.erlangen.de/eris/downloadPDF.do;jsessionid=aJ5R7rAUQglg;jsessionid=aJ5R7rAUQglg?id=1153533 (https://secure.erlangen.de/eris/downloadPDF.do;jsessionid=aJ5R7rAUQglg;jsessionid=aJ5R7rAUQglg?id=1153533)

5000 kilos per year...

well, I could help them out a little...  :icon_eek:
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Paul Perry (Frostwave) on March 09, 2007, 09:57:55 PM
Keep us posted on that one, Puretube!
I'd be really suprised if it works well.. ferric chloride in this application just works as a coagulant, so the algae sinks & decomposes. I think you will end up with a smelly lake!
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Meanderthal on March 09, 2007, 11:02:43 PM
Quote
A pond were carpers are being bred

Quote
The last 3 or 4 summers there was a blue-algal bloom each time when the weather was at its best,
and hence swimming was prohibited for weeks...

 I have a spring in my yard that had caused a big patch of mud to be in my backyard(down in the hollow), a big PITA to mow.

 I planted weeping willow trees to drink it up... nope, didn't work... I got to thinking, since it's wet, why not have a pond? So I dug a 'test hole' about 3 feet deep, 1 foot wide, and watched the water level for a year. Yep, even in the hottest dryest part of mid summer, there was standing water. So I started digging a pond.

 Well, the first year I got pea soup. Yuck! I tried a couple wal-mart solutions, but the damn stuff came right back. I tried scooping it all out, same results. Winter came, the goo subsided, and I got to spend some time not having to worry bout it for a while...

 Then sping came. And MOSQUITOES! And pea soup. Well, I figured, go get some goldfish(carp) to eat the larvae, since they can survive in nasty water like that. Went to a pet store, bought 50 feeder fish for $5.00, dumped them in. Carrots for the pea soup...

 And... the pond scum was gone in 2 weeks! This puzzled me, since the only thing I did was add goldfish...

 I was at a store shortly afterwards, and saw some goldfish food on a shelf.  :icon_idea: I looked at the ingredients. First on the list- algae. Well whaddya know, goldfish eat algae, not just bugs and stuff! Haven't had an algae problem since. Nor a mosquito bite. The pond is FULL of fish, and I don't feed them at all. Never saw a dead one yet.

 Just a suggestion, but maybe more fish would help...(yeah, I know, it's not your personal pond to make those decisions).


 
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Meanderthal on March 09, 2007, 11:12:31 PM
 Oh, and the 2 times I used FeCl I let it dry in the tray, then threw the whole thing in the trash. Took quite a while to dry.

 BTW, I do NOT want to encourage anyone to dump it down the drain, but I worked building houses (masonry actually) for quite a while, including new, old, and historic old houses as well as commercial buildings, and have never seen a single copper sewer pipe. Nor heard of one. Iron, yes, though. Copper is just way too expensive to use for large pipes like that. PVC is the most common. Not trying to be contradictory, but just trying to keep the info accurate. ;)
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: km-r on March 10, 2007, 12:56:36 AM
the river
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: markm on March 10, 2007, 01:17:50 AM
the river

....wait 'til pete moore gets a look at this..... :o
It's really NOT going to be pretty!  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: jonathan perez on March 10, 2007, 01:39:57 AM
yeah, rivers only need water and fishys...



and occasionally the brunette down the road...
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: km-r on March 10, 2007, 01:40:53 AM
one weekend im gonna catch a copper-clad catfish in our river...

Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: puretube on March 10, 2007, 03:54:34 AM
or I`m gonna bring my PCBs to the lake, to get them etched...
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: markm on March 10, 2007, 12:24:11 PM
or I`m gonna bring my PCBs to the lake, to get them etched...

 :icon_eek:
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: gez on March 10, 2007, 01:29:37 PM
Took my Chevy to the levee, but the levee was green...
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: puretube on April 18, 2007, 06:51:46 PM
Keep us posted on that one, Puretube!
I'd be really suprised if it works well.. ferric chloride in this application just works as a coagulant, so the algae sinks & decomposes. I think you will end up with a smelly lake!

tomorrows local newspaper:

http://www.erlanger-nachrichten.de/artikel.asp?art=634480&kat=19

(sorry: german...)
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Paul Perry (Frostwave) on April 19, 2007, 10:28:27 AM
I may have been wrong about the ferric salt being a coagulant, apparently the idea is for it to srtrip out phosphates by precipitating ferric phosphate (I would never have guesed this was insoluble!). This assumes the excess algae is caused by phosphate from farm fertilisers.
Well, we'll see! Ironically, in the ocean, algae growth is limited by there being not enough iron! The world is very complicated..

Keep up the reports, Puretube!
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: KORGULL on April 19, 2007, 07:22:31 PM
Any new/good tips on deactivating and/or disposing of ammonium persulphate? I'm saving it in a bottle and hoping it is something they accept at the yearly hazardous waste collection that is held in my area, but I'd like to know of options for neutralizing it.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Paul Perry (Frostwave) on April 20, 2007, 03:34:40 AM
The remains from persulphate, is going to be copper sulphate. Any unused persulphate gradually loses oxygen & turns to ammonium or sodium sulphate.
Copper sulphate isn't highly toxic, it is regularly dumped down drains to discourage root growth.
I wouldn't put it in a septic tank, though.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: stobiepole on April 20, 2007, 03:55:48 AM
And if you have any dogs around your house, make sure you keep solvents away from them - they absorb them through the skin very easily which will make them deaf VERY quickly. And for those in cold climates - antifreeze is highly dangerous (dogs love the taste AND it kills them).

Things to consider if you're a dog owner.
Chris
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: mattpocket on April 20, 2007, 04:01:54 AM
I am planning to start etching PBCs on my next project, I emailed my local council to find out the arrangements for toxic waste disposal. Looks like I will have to take it to the tip.  Failing that I will be neutralising it and putting it in a refuse bag...

Matt
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: ambulancevoice on April 20, 2007, 08:21:06 AM
that lazer cutting tool looks interesting
im going to start using FeCl3 soon, and this topic has been really informative
here in aus, there trying to start to use purified recycled water from the sewage system because of our drought
its actually cleaner than the water in taps we use now, but the state (queensland) im in still hasnt agreed to
start using it (i think), because the publics like "eewwww recycled sewage water" being the ignorant people they are

Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: ambulancevoice on April 20, 2007, 08:22:12 AM
so, dumping it down the toilet wouldnt be a go i idea
ill try this baking soda method
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: mattpocket on April 20, 2007, 08:55:38 AM
I think we already have recycled water in the UK?

Matt
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: puretube on May 24, 2007, 02:23:04 AM
So the weather got warm enough to go swimming...
guess what: (latest newspaper report (http://www.erlanger-nachrichten.de/artikel.asp?art=649709&kat=19));

the ferric chloride only got rid of the algae where the "fresh" (phosphated) water enters the lake;

but the large part of the water already being in the lake however, has started to "bloom" again,
still having too strong a phosphate concentration.

Now they have added LIME (calcium/Kalk)...

I do wonder, how they`re going to mix the lime in a better way with the water content...
 :icon_rolleyes:

Tomorrow (getting 30° summer temperatures till over the weekend) the authorities will anounce
whether bathing will beprohibited again, because of the algae...
(The Lime & FeCl3 are OK for the swimmers, so they say)!
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Paul Perry (Frostwave) on May 24, 2007, 06:54:14 AM
Thanks for the feedback, puretube! nothing worse than threads that end in mid-air......
I think it is time for them to use mechanical filtration, try to comb it out with nets (works for whales!)
http://www.pondsbytom.com/lakefiltration.html maybe you should tell the local paper about this.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: RaceDriver205 on May 24, 2007, 07:14:25 AM
I dispose of mine in the Lake at my local Natural Wildlife Reserve. I figure it'll make the fish a bit tastier for the Pelicans.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Meanderthal on May 24, 2007, 07:42:46 AM
 Dammit! The algae is back in my pond! 2 years clear, now pea soup. Well, I guess more fish ain't the answer, maybe I have more fish poop now...
 It's getting overrun with frogs too... but tadpoles eat algae... but fish eat tadpoles...

 Maybe I need to add some FeCl!
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: RaceDriver205 on May 24, 2007, 08:09:13 AM
Quote
here in aus, there trying to start to use purified recycled water from the sewage system because of our drought
its actually cleaner than the water in taps we use now, but the state (queensland) im in still hasnt agreed to
start using it (i think), because the publics like "eewwww recycled sewage water" being the ignorant people they are
Amen. They're happy to take 20minute showers and water the lawn though. People watch Big Brother, what do you expect.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: nephsuperman on May 24, 2007, 02:28:59 PM
I am switching from ferric to the muriatic acid method laid out by John's PCB Making tips, its just so much cheaper.  I would think that using baking soda with it will produce the same neutralizing results.  Any thoughts on this to the contrary?
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: sfx1999 on May 24, 2007, 03:24:52 PM
nephsuperman: That should work, actually. In fact, once you get the pH low enough, you could flush it.

I don't know if the hydrogen peroxide is good to flush, though.

The other considerations are I don't know if that produces heat, whether it bubbles, or if the CO2 produced could suffocate you.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: nephsuperman on May 24, 2007, 04:04:16 PM
thanks.  Those are good thoughts.  I would bet there there will be some reactions like you mentioned. I'll just make sure that I add the baking soda slowly and do it outside.  I am excited!
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: sfx1999 on May 24, 2007, 04:30:00 PM
You should probably test its pH when finished, too.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: markm on May 24, 2007, 04:31:46 PM
I am switching from ferric to the muriatic acid method laid out by John's PCB Making tips, its just so much cheaper.

Unless you live in Europe, I can't imagine that Ferric Chloride is all that expensive?
Radio Shack sells it for less than $5 a bottle.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: nephsuperman on May 24, 2007, 04:45:47 PM
I got ferric at the shack for 10 bucks for a liter.  Using john's method, it is much cheaper.  plus, its clear so you can see the etching in process.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: puretube on May 24, 2007, 04:49:28 PM
FeCl3 ain`t that expensive in Europe...
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: nephsuperman on May 24, 2007, 05:07:27 PM
puretube and markm are right, its only 5 bucks for 16 oz.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Chuck on May 25, 2007, 05:48:53 AM

Find someone you hate and pour it on their car.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: remmelt on May 25, 2007, 07:50:48 AM
Segor.de has 1kg of FeCl3 for 6,40 euro. 250g in one liter of water. A liter is really WAY too much for etching PCBs, I use a quarter of a liter and use it multiple times. I've just recently put in more FeCl3 for etching some enclosures. It doesn't even look like I've dented the supply ;)
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: sfx1999 on May 26, 2007, 09:18:57 PM
I forgot to mention, some muriatic (hydrochloric) acid precautions:

Wear safety gear (goggles, gloves), make sure that they can handle exposure to it
Don't use a metal etching tank. Use something that can handle it
NEVER POUR WATER INTO ACID. Remember, A to W (acid to water)
Do not pour it down the drain. I know I said it could be done, and it could if neutralized with baking soda, but it has copper in it. Copper BAD.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: markm on May 26, 2007, 10:42:17 PM
I forgot to mention, some muriatic (hydrochloric) acid precautions:

Wear safety gear (goggles, gloves), make sure that they can handle exposure to it
Don't use a metal etching tank. Use something that can handle it
NEVER POUR WATER INTO ACID. Remember, A to W (acid to water)
Do not pour it down the drain. I know I said it could be done, and it could if neutralized with baking soda, but it has copper in it. Copper BAD.

This stuff seems almost as "bad" as FeCl.  ???
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Paul Perry (Frostwave) on May 29, 2007, 04:26:58 AM
One difference between HCl and FeCl3: you already have hydrochloric acid in your stomach naturally!
They are both deadly corrosives, but FeCl3 is also fatal because of the iron.

As to mixing acid and water - mixing hydrochloric and water is OK, it's concentrated sulphuric and water that is dangerous (a lot of heat is generated, and if you aren't careful, you can get some of the water boiling & spitting sulphuric acid into your face, a BAD THING).

But I guess you have to be careful no matter what you are doing... when it comes to PCB etching, I'm a persulphate fan.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: markm on May 29, 2007, 07:09:49 AM
Thanks for than info Paul, quite interesting.
Title: Re: how do you all dispose of Ferric Chloride?
Post by: Meanderthal on May 29, 2007, 07:38:00 AM
 If ya buy 10% Hcl it's going to be extremely hard to hurt yourself with it... others have discussed 40% concentration, which would rip the hide right off ya. I'd recommend the weaker dilution, about as safe as vinegar. Till ya get it all full of copper anyway.

 Ditto the stomache thing, we heartburn sufferers know that only too well. :icon_mad:

 It won't do anything scary when you pour water into it. I did that countless times. With a hose.