Sorry I didn't get this out earlier. I've been completely consumed in some new designs. Several people wanted me to post it when they came out. Workhorse amps shipped to dealers in late October. Quantities are small as yet, but they are out there. Most dealers that pre-ordered got one or two of each size, Pony (30W - 1x12) and Stallion (60W - 2x12). They shipped simultaneously worldwide.
If you're interested, contact your local dealer that carries Visual Sound stuff to see if they have one. I think the web page has a dealer list, too.
If you try one and have an opinion either way, I'd welcome the feedback.
Hubcap speaker grills!
(http://www.visualsound.net/images/Workhorse_Ad.jpg)
cool, will try a production model at NAMM, maybe with one of our new pedals, good luck with it!!!
Great news R.G. and congradulations on the shippment.
I guess you'll be taking orders at NAMM again.
I want one!
But the problem is... When I call my local dealer listed on the web page they are CLUELESS.
They would rather pitch me on the Mesa F30 they have in stock.
What would be really helpfull would be a list of dealers that bought and got shipments.
I've asked my local dealer, Long and McQuade in Canada, and all I get is puzzled looks and doubt, FUD.
If I was sure there was one in, say Seattle, I would call the dealer, hold it, and make the 3 hour drive to buy it.
I know a shipping list would be a hassle. But that would help. Not that these amps will have any problems selling.
The problem is GETTING ONE it seems.
I haven't played it, but just from looking at it, here are my thought:
The hubcap grilles are a fantastic idea sonically, but they're a bit "out there" and I dunno how/if they will catch on. Personally I'd have put in something like the Weber "Beam Blockers" to do the same job. They'll do the same thing more or less, but are less likely to scare somebody away.
Only one channel. I know this is marketed as a good thing, and I'm not saying it isn't a good idea (clean channels sound much nicer overdriven than the fizzy 12ax7 distortion on my dirty channels). It's just that when you get this high in the price range most people expect more features.
Great idea with the 9v output.
The 1000 dollar pricetag on a 30w amp with these features is a bit on the high side IMO. The fact is, you have the Vox AC30 for the same price, and same wattage, but with the Vox you get two channels, tremolo, reverb, effects loop (I'm surprised you don't have these, as the amp is marketed for use with pedals, or so it seems, and some effects do sound better in the effects loop), and then it's a trusted name that everybody knows of and is familiar with. To be honest, I don't really see your amp having much of a chance at all. And on top of that, you're pushing a new look and new features nobody has seen before in an amp and they might be skeptical/scared of.
This is all from a marketing point of view. I'm sure it's a great amp, but there are so many amps out there with more features, for the same price, and cheaper.
I'm interested in hearing your thoughts R.G.
nice one RG, any info on the amps - can't find much out there on the web.
so what's the story with the metal grille? - I asume it's some kind of diffusion device to stop the cab being so directional and to promote a wider spread of sound (???). gotta admit, I'm not keen on the look of the metal grille - I'd put some grillcloth over it myself.
I'm sure the amps sound great - pity that I'm unlikely to see one here in the UK. I wish you all the best in this venture.
Here (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=50662.0)
This was posted a while back. Maybe it will help explain things.
Quote from: rockgardenlove on December 30, 2006, 04:10:34 PM
This is all from a marketing point of view. I'm sure it's a great amp, but there are so many amps out there with more features, for the same price, and cheaper.
Same price, more features, sure.
But.. probably not with the same maintainability. And, it's designed & sold on the basis of being what a gigging musician wants and needs. The 'features' on mass produced amps often just get in the way of a professional, who has to cover all the styles.
I don't think they will sell a million of these, but I don't think I'll see any put out with the trash either!!
An amp designed for working musicians? That's pretty novel!
I would only buy that amp if it had "spinners" on that hub cap, perhaps with a motor hooked up to spin it, then you could get a fake leslie sound. ;D
[Meta note: Will you guys slow down and let me get this polemic posted?? I can't type that fast. ;D ]
Yeah, it's always a speculative venture when you put out something that's not in line with the other stuff in the market. Who knows? It may not be that attractive to many people.
But since you ask, here's the reasoning which went into those facets of the amp design. I'll try not to make this a blast of marketing-speak. If I get too wound up, pinch me. :icon_biggrin:
QuoteThe hubcap grilles are a fantastic idea sonically, but they're a bit "out there" and I dunno how/if they will catch on. Personally I'd have put in something like the Weber "Beam Blockers" to do the same job. They'll do the same thing more or less, but are less likely to scare somebody away.
People fall into two classes when they see these - they love them or they hate them based on the way they look. I can't argue with that at all. My first reaction to them was not all that positive either. They are definitely "out there".
However, I've now listened to them a lot. In comparison to beam blockers, they do a much better job of spreading treble instead of just blocking it. The sweet spot in front of the amp is actually huge compared to most amps. Miking a Workhores is easy because of this. We thought about putting a condenser mike capsule into the hubcaps and bringing it out the back to make the amp self miking, but decided against it because people have so many different preferences in which mike they use.
If someone really hates them, the grilles are paintable... :)
QuoteOnly one channel. I know this is marketed as a good thing, and I'm not saying it isn't a good idea (clean channels sound much nicer overdriven than the fizzy 12ax7 distortion on my dirty channels). It's just that when you get this high in the price range most people expect more features.
Good point, and one that we spent a long time working on. That's the line of reasoning that led to the J&H being included. A single channel amp is kind of dull all by itself, but the J&H adds two independently voiced distortion channels which are stackable. We just didn't put that inside the amp. If you think of the J&H being just the footswitch which cuts in channels 2, 3, and 4 does that help?
We did a lot of talking to session musicians and touring musicians about amp setups before we did this. Almost none of them use the distortion channels in their amps on stage. They pretty uniformly set the amps to play clean-ish and get their tone out of their pedalboards. It makes the amp setups critical, and most of the functions in the amps don't get used.
Using just a single channel is not just marketing-speak (which regular readers here will know I have this aversion to). There's a reason for it. If you do tone shaping and any delay effects before you do distortion, the distortion can make sonic hash out of your carefully EQ-ed and delayed sound. If you do delays - like chorus, flanging, and reverb - after any distortion, it's a much different sound.
In fact, one way to look at it is that effects loops exist because the amps have built in distortion channels in their amp/preamps. If you do your distortion in your amp's preamp, then you pretty much have to have an effects loop to stick delay effects into to avoid the sonic-cement-mixer effect of distorting after delay.
If you do distortion then delay, you can actually hear the delayed sounds. So the principle of doing distortion and delay in your effects ahead of the amp is logically consistent. The Workhorse amps were designed specifically to be effects-friendly, including the case where you want a distortion pedal and a delay pedal. Done this way, an effects loop is not particularly needed. That's not to say that there aren't other uses for an effects loop, but you don't need an effects loop to make up for the fact that the preamp is doing a lot of distortion.
QuoteThe 1000 dollar pricetag on a 40w amp with these features is a bit on the high side IMO. The fact is, you have the Vox AC30 for the same price, and similar wattage, but with the Vox you get two channels, tremolo, reverb, effects loop (I'm surprised you don't have these, as the amp is marketed for use with pedals, or so it seems, and some effects do sound better in the effects loop), and then it's a trusted name that everybody knows of and is familiar with. To be honest, I don't really see your amp having much of a chance at all. And on top of that, you're pushing a new look and new features nobody has seen before in an amp and they might be skeptical of.
This is all from a marketing point of view. I'm sure it's a great amp, but there are so many amps out there with more features, for the same price, and cheaper.
All excellent points, and ones that we worried about.
I view the Workhorse amps as a step sideways, out of the mainstream of guitar amps.
We put our manufacturing money into things that are not all that flashy or easy to see. There are not many knobs on a Workhorse. But every knob that is there can be repaired in under 15 minutes without even pulling the chassis out of the cabinet. You might crack the grille or destroy the speaker by dropping the amp out of a truck, but you probably won't crack the extra-thick PCB or the triple-thick copper on it. In fact, with the steel stiffeners on the board, it likely will not even flex.
At $40-50 per visit to bias tubes when you replace them, you'll make up several hundred dollars of service calls you don't pay for because of the owner-biasing in the amps, so they get comparatively cheaper the more you use them. If something in the circuitry does burn out, an amp tech can get to both sides of the main PCB without removing it from the chassis, so unlike some amps, the tech does not have to remove 20 knobs, then unscrew the nuts on 20 pots, six jacks, and a few switches to remove the PCB to work on it. We interviewed a number of techs and asked "what do you hate about servicing modern amps?" and they told us about that, at length, in four-part harmony.
I could go on with this, as there's a lot more of the insides that were done for durability and longevity for the player who uses his amp a lot. The idea was to make something that is not what people expect today - lowest cost construction with all the bells and whistles that can be loaded on for cheap. Instead, the focus is on building a working musician's tool set - sounds good, durable, easy to use and flexible in application. It's an old fashioned way to build amps, but with modern materials and design.
Is reliability you won't see for years going to make people buy an amp with fewer fancy gadgets on it? I honestly don't know.
Modern marketing theory holds that this is the wrong way to sell stuff. According to the MBAs, we should be making stuff that just lasts as long as the warranty period, with as many flashy eye-catching things as we can and all of the features per dollar that we can cram in. That would let us compete with the big names.
A little googling shows an AC30-212 with Celestion alnico blues for $1600 on sale. The AC30-212 CC without the blues is $1000 "on sale", and the AC30 CC-112 is $700 although it lists for $1400. My ears tell me that the AC30CC is not the same amp as the original AC30. The Pony has one twelve inch Celestion, and goes at a street price of about $850. A boutique AC30 clone will be over $2k. The 212 Stallion is a 60W amp as compared to the AC30 212's 30W. The AC30 has the name and the history. They are ...heavy... A Pony is the same power, a bit quieter by having only one 12", but you can put your cords and the J&H into the pockets on the side of the padded cover, pick up the Pony with one hand and your guitar in the other and go play a gig. If you put a bad rectifier tube or shorted-heater output tube into the AC30 or the boutique clones and turn them on, they will destroy a multi-hundred-dollar power transformer. Do the same thing to a Workhorse and it pops a $0.50 fuse. An intermittent speaker jack on a main-line amp can cause arcing on the output sockets and may kill your output transformer. On the Workhorses, it trips the transient-eating MOV across the output transformer primary.
What I do know is that some very picky musicians and session players are impressed with the flexibility of the amp. There's a whole lot of different sounds that can be made with the Workhorse amps and that J&H pedal. I'm an AC30 bigot personally. Love the things. But an AC30 is always an AC30, you can hear it instantly. The Workhorse amps don't have a single sound. We have had people go from chicken picking to ear-bleeding metal by messing with the knobs and the J&H. Yes, I know that sounds like sheer marketing blather, but honestly, it surprised me. They are very flexible - as a good working man's amp should be.
On the other hand, we did stick a CD input on the Pony, and there is a speaker-emulated line out on both of them. Taking the amp into a mixing board is a breeze. It's just not a very sexy feature.
What do I make out of all that? To me, they're apples and oranges.
I honestly don't know whether they will be commercially successful. I sure hope so, but then there are reasons that the MBAs get rich. I did aim directly at the working musician and the guy who wants to craft his or her own sound, or the sessions guy who has to produce whatever the session needs.
Quotenice one RG, any info on the amps - can't find much out there on the web.
We pulled in our horns on advertising when it took so much time to get them produced in quantity. It has been a real struggle to get any reasonable quantity produced. But they are now being manufactured.
Quoteso what's the story with the metal grille? - I asume it's some kind of diffusion device to stop the cab being so directional and to promote a wider spread of sound (Huh). gotta admit, I'm not keen on the look of the metal grille - I'd put some grillcloth over it myself.
It is. The grille is actually a support for a cone that spreads the treble out of the middle of the speaker so the sound is more consistent, not a beam of treble in the middle and muffled off-axis. That actually works surprisingly well. And did I mention the grille is paintable...
QuoteI'm sure the amps sound great - pity that I'm unlikely to see one here in the UK.
You might be surprised. There are not many there, but we did ship all over the world. Some went to the UK, although I don't know if they're near where you are. There are at least a few in Finland, some in Germany, France, Italy, a couple in Ukraine I think.
QuoteI don't think they will sell a million of these
Me neither. I'd be perfectly happy with selling 100K of them.... lemme see, where's that smiley for an evil grin? :icon_wink:
Quote from: rockgardenlove on December 30, 2006, 04:10:34 PM
The fact is, you have the Vox AC30 for the same price, and same wattage, but with the Vox you get two channels, tremolo, reverb, effects loop (I'm surprised you don't have these, as the amp is marketed for use with pedals, or so it seems, and some effects do sound better in the effects loop), and then it's a trusted name that everybody knows of and is familiar with. To be honest, I don't really see your amp having much of a chance at all. And on top of that, you're pushing a new look and new features nobody has seen before in an amp and they might be skeptical/scared of.
On the other hand, maybe the point is not in competing with the well established manufacturers. If the new amp was just like Vox AC30 (or some other well known amp) it would be hard to compete, because it would be just the same, and Vox would have the well known Vox logo on it. So, maybe the target buyer is someone who wants something else than the the same old things that the other brands put out. Those people may be a minority, but I believe they exist.
And bear in mind that the price includes one pedal that should be quite verstaile.
If I was in need of that kid of power I might buy one, but I only play at home to my bedroom walls. 30 watts is a bit of an overkill for that.
Quote from: MetalGod on December 30, 2006, 05:32:34 PM
I'm sure the amps sound great - pity that I'm unlikely to see one here in the UK.
I wouldn't be so sure... One of the local stores here in Helsinki (Finland) seem to sell them: http://www.musamaailma.fi/bandikamat/tuotteet/136/154/256/workpony.phtml
I don't know if they actually have them in the store, but at its on their catalog. Next week I might go and see as I work in the same building.
Edit:
Quote from: R.G. on December 30, 2006, 06:48:37 PM
You might be surprised. There are not many there, but we did ship all over the world. Some went to the UK, although I don't know if they're near where you are. There are at least a few in Finland, some in Germany, France, Italy, a couple in Ukraine I think.
Duh... I should have reviewed my message when the red text told me to. :icon_confused:
With regard to the "hubcaps", I think they might look more appealing to most people if they were flat black instead of the chrome. Just my two centavos. :icon_wink:
I don't know what these will end up costing by the time they get to the UK, but $1,000 seems pretty reasonable to me.
Like most things it's a case of horses for courses, all I need from an amp is a good loud clean sound. I'd take the exact opposite position to rockgardenlove I'd rather spend my money on an amp that does one job really well than on an amp that gives me the sound I want but has a load of extras I don't need. I currently use a Twin but only use the clean channel, so I don't need the dirty channel or the FX loop. I'd take the extras the Workhorse offers over those any day.
I guess this will also appeal to the boutique crowd as well, after all if you're spending $300 on a TS clone then $1,000 on a "boutique" amp to play it through is pretty good value.
with regard to the hubcaps I quite like 'em. Then again I like 70s big headstock Strats so what do I know ;D
Quote from: slacker on December 30, 2006, 07:43:12 PM
I don't know what these will end up costing by the time they get to the UK, but $1,000 seems pretty reasonable to me.
Like most things it's a case of horses for courses, all I need from an amp is a good loud clean sound. I'd take the exact opposite position to rockgardenlove I'd rather spend my money on an amp that does one job really well than on an amp that gives me the sound I want but has a load of extras I don't need. I currently use a Twin but only use the clean channel, so I don't need the dirty channel or the FX loop. I'd take the extras the Workhorse offers over those any day.
I guess this will also appeal to the boutique crowd as well, after all if you're spending $300 on a TS clone then $1,000 on a "boutique" amp to play it through is pretty good value.
I'm not necessarily talking about my personal tastes (though I do LOVE the AC30's and I am a total trem+'verb nut). Most guitarists will go for more stuff. Dirty channel, or no dirty channel? They'll go for the amp with the dirty channel almost all the time. And if you can throw in tremolo too, why not?
Quote from: Elektrojänis on December 30, 2006, 07:09:02 PM
Quote from: rockgardenlove on December 30, 2006, 04:10:34 PM
The fact is, you have the Vox AC30 for the same price, and same wattage, but with the Vox you get two channels, tremolo, reverb, effects loop (I'm surprised you don't have these, as the amp is marketed for use with pedals, or so it seems, and some effects do sound better in the effects loop), and then it's a trusted name that everybody knows of and is familiar with. To be honest, I don't really see your amp having much of a chance at all. And on top of that, you're pushing a new look and new features nobody has seen before in an amp and they might be skeptical/scared of.
On the other hand, maybe the point is not in competing with the well established manufacturers. If the new amp was just like Vox AC30 (or some other well known amp) it would be hard to compete, because it would be just the same, and Vox would have the well known Vox logo on it. So, maybe the target buyer is someone who wants something else than the the same old things that the other brands put out. Those people may be a minority, but I believe they exist.
And bear in mind that the price includes one pedal that should be quite verstaile.
If I was in need of that kid of power I might buy one, but I only play at home to my bedroom walls. 30 watts is a bit of an overkill for that.
I don't think you can produce an amp without competing somewhat with amps already on the market. You may not be marketing them as the same thing, but they're both tube guitar amps. That itself puts them in the same group, and whether you like it or not, they will be put up against other amps already on the market by potential buyers.
Good point with the effects loop, I suppose if the preamp isn't distorting at all anyways there isn't much of a reason for one. Still, it is a feature that people will see and think is lacking.
I suppose a big factor is that we here on the forums are significantly more educated when it comes to this sort of stuff. Most guitarists don't dive in as deep as we do. I know heaps of guitarists who don't bias, they just plug in their tubes and go, and are perfectly happy. We here know it's a good idea to protect expensive transformers, and how horrible it is to service an amp that's got strangely arranged guts (my Classic 30 is hell inside) and we know what traces are and that thicker is better.
And I don't quite understand why when you say that your improvements aren't easy to see you don't try and point them out. After reading your post I'm significantly more impressed. You might as well let potential customers know this too, eh?
I'm drooling over one of these. Hopefully the bonusese at work are decent this year.
I wonder if you can "slam" the front end with a booster enough to get some breakup? That's my prefered overdrive.
As far as the hubcaps go - I'm not sold 100% on the looks, but honestly, 90% of the time I make custom grill cloths out of breathable fabric so all our amps match. Not certain having not seen one in person, but there seems to be enough room and the cap seems recessed enough that I could mount my standard fabric-stretched-over a wood frame method of making a grill cloth (I used to have an amp with switchable grill cloths) in there, and then you don't see the hubcap at all.
Love the idea of mounting an mic capsule on the inside of the hubcap. (Also agree with Slacker on giant 70's Fender headstocks)
Hi. My 2c...
RG, I think you are under-selling your amps. Or maybe assuming that people know the benefits of the features you list. For example, "toroidal transformer" doesn't mean much to most people, but "Toroidal transformer for less hum than regular amps" immediately says that this amp is better than most out there wrt transformer noise.
The features that you mention in this thread could be attractive to buyers. "Heavy duty circuit board" and "extra thick tracks" are two that conjure up attractive mental images and will make people desire these over the myriad of ordinary amps out there. The many people who only vaguely understand about "tracks" will still appreciate that the engineer was concerned about them, wanted to improve them, and made them "extra thick" in this amp.
QuoteIf someone really hates them, the grilles are paintable...
A black option would be good for people like me that think the concept is cool, but the grilles themselves are a bit much visually.
Concerning the channel thing. I have a JTM60 - the 1990s re-issue that was given a distortion channel in addition to the original JTM channel. I agree that a lot of stuff can be covered with a clean channel and a booster and distortions. However, the convenience of a built-in distortion channel is significant, too, so maybe a little market research is needed to find out how your customers (and potential customers) would use the amp, and what they would be prepared to pay for an extra channel.
Your choice of classic power valves (especially EL34s at high voltage for 60W) is something that experienced amp buyers would or should be looking for.
Good luck.
Congratulations! I'll be looking forward to try one at NAMM...with a couple of of my own noise-toys, of course!
SD
RG,
I'm an electronics technician, working on mainly pro audio stuff like power amps and mixing desks but also SS guitar amps. If I was a guitarist I'd definitely buy one of these. It's ridiculous having to take every knob off and unscrew every pot and socket just to diagnose a fault, let alone repair it. Most companies don't care about serviceability, and they probably make more money because of this. I've worked on some high priced modern R*ndall amplifiers and they are built incredibly shoddily. Most of the others are not much better.
I hope it sells well. I know they'll hold their value well.
Cheers,
Stew.
makes me wish i had planned to go to NAMM this year. unfortunately, i work a real job in addition to my part-time at the music shop, and i'm out of vacation time :) R.G., what are the chances you could make one available for my boss to purchase for me at NAMM?? :)
Heh personally, I like one chanell amps! 4 knobs? Now that's my idea of an amp ;)
Amp rant ahead...
During the non internet era (pre 94) and mid 90-ties, lots of amps were generally underrated and could be bought for small cash, take for instance any Sunn amp, Carlsbro, even Orange, etc etc... Okay I could question the reliabilty of some of the amps, but most of these thingies actually sounded very very good...
Nowadays, sunns and oranges went so up in the price department! 1000$ for a one channel non master volume 120W tube amp? You must be mad! That's right, it's the tone - that's been there for 30+ years, just some bloke from some famous band brought that amp to the stage and everyone started asking questions - "what's that amp", 5 mins later, newsgroups and bulletin boards were full of it, 10 mins later price of the amp went from 300$ to 800$, it's plain and simple.
How did Ibanez became so popular? With their nice guitars? Probably yes! But what sold them to the public, were Satriani and Vai first and foremost! Now every shredder today wants to own an Ibanez, but they make nice "regular" guitars like Artist series and such, these aren't so popular ;)
Similiar thing happend to Fender. Jaguar and Mustang were actually considered crap at the time they came out, crap tuners, crap tremolo systems, and they soon put them out of production. There you have early 90's, bunch of indie guitarists using these axes, Cobain too, and soon kids began to search for these guitars, Fender started to produce them again...
R.G.'s amp could be the next great thing in amp business. Get some famous guitar bloke to use it or to advertise it, and you're half way there! ;)
ps: I've seen the promo video (someone posted it in the lounge some time ago), and I totally respect the build approach, the ease of servicing, biasing, 9V supply, those things are here for ages and finally someone decided to do it, two thumbs up!
There are so many categories of musicians and it's impossible to please everyone... Touring bands will still use marshall stacks because they're reliable and road worthy, get the tone, repaired in every city.. On the other hand, there are numerous bands playing at a certain different level, that need gear that will get them excellent sound results, not just the work done by the end of the day, and these people will love Workhorses, will pay for them no matter how much they cost and hopefully attract more customers!
pps: I've been diy-ing pedals and amps for 7 years now, i'm 25, and only recently heard of Genz-Benz amps, what the heck are those? Apparently there is a whole subculture of ex-shredders that play weddings who worship these amps, as I work in a club as a soundguy, last two years I never saw this things, and I saw a bunch of different amps, even the anonymous Italian brands ;) Guess I need to go some wedding featuring a band with a guitar shredder to hear genzbenz hehe
Apparently there is a market for those amps, easily there could be a market/genre of musicians that will buy Workhorses!
ppps: I hate when amps or effects feature led's behind the tubes to make the "glow" - four thumbs up for NOT doing that ;)
OK, two questions for RG
1. Will you have any of the PONY's to sell at NAMM?
2. What is the Visual Sound booth number?
Oopps never mind found that one...
Company: Visual Sound LLC
Booth: 5721
Suggestion: Since one of the big advantages of the design you're selling is reliability, a video showing off the easy-repair parts and biasing and general durability would be pretty cool. I mean, if you took one of them and hit the grille with a 2x4 or something crazy like that, and threw it up on youtube? ;)
^You know, that's not a half bad idea.
R.G., here's my 2 cents.
I like one channel amps too, I'd much prefer a great sounding one channel amp to an alright sounding multi-channel amp. I run a '59 Bassman Reissue with about 14 pedals in front of it and while I might not be as loud as my jam buddies 120 Watt multi-channel tube heads (Peavey Ultra 120's), I know I'm sounding better. I've never liked effects loops either, they seem to take away much of the character from my pedals, which I rely on quite heavily during jams to get the different sounds that I like to play with.
I look forward to trying out these Workhorse amps, hopefully I'll be able to find one in Lubbock to play with. Where is the NAMM show being hosted this year (or is it in Austin every year)? I've been wanting to attend a NAMM show for years now, but I always put it in the back of my mind and forget about it. Someday...
Oh and I agree with the suggestion made earlier, black grilles on the Workhorse amps would really clean up the looks. Also, like someone else mentioned earlier, be sure to include information about how durable these amps were designed, that's a pretty important feature to most gigging musicians.
I had a look at the video & while it appeals to ME, I felt it was a bit negative in that the emphasis on ease of repair, could make ignorant people think that meant it was likely to break down (where we know it is the very opposite).
But focusing on the working musician, that's the thing.
"affordable, useable, maintainable"
although personally I prefer getting distortion from the amp (a typical Marshall circuit), R.G. is not alone in his thinking. Pete Cornish does a Marshall mod that turns a head into a clean amp so the tone can be mainly generated from effects for the same sorts of reasons (flexibility IIRC). So here is example of an experienced "name" guy with the same approach, but I think he charges an arm and leg for the mod. I don't know about the hubcaps though (although I'm sure they function well), just in terms of the look.
All this fuss about the hubcaps confirms what I have always thought: on average, musicians are the most conservative people in the world.
(yeah, a few shining counterexamples on this board! but, overall... you're going to have to paint that chrome :icon_wink: )
Quoteon average, musicians are the most conservative people in the world.
If you think musicians are conservative, you should work with aircraft manufacturers.
Not to hijack the thread too much, I'm drooling over these amps. Luckily, there is a Visual Sound dealer in the Phoneix area other than Sam Ash!
i don't know why i need one of these at NAMM. i just realized visual sound is in spring hill, TN, which is about 45 minutes from me :)
Where is Namm this year?
Quote from: Cliff Schecht on January 01, 2007, 03:56:06 AM
Where is Namm this year?
the website says Anaheim, California
Quote from: R.G. on December 30, 2006, 06:48:37 PMIf you put a bad rectifier tube or shorted-heater output tube into the AC30 or the boutique clones and turn them on, they will destroy a multi-hundred-dollar power transformer. Do the same thing to a Workhorse and it pops a $0.50 fuse. An intermittent speaker jack on a main-line amp can cause arcing on the output sockets and may kill your output transformer. On the Workhorses, it trips the transient-eating MOV across the output transformer primary.
This is what made me smile. I understand why big companies making a million amps don't take the time to install features like this that add to the longevity and repairability of the amp, since bottom line pennies on a million unit line add up quick. But it still pisses me off! I have repaired a few amplifiers, and the first things to go in are always a high voltage secondary fuse and an output transformer fuse. I see HV secondary fuses in some Marshalls, but never in a Fender. And like you said, now you blow a filter cap or your speaker jack shorts and the amp dies...and you replace a part that literally costs pennies instead of shelling out a couple hundred dollars for a new transformer. The old saying that I think of is "a stitch in time saves nine". In other words, do a little work now (by installing extra fuses) and then when it goes in the toilet you'll be doiugn a quick, ceahp fix and not an expensive one.
I don't know what an MOV is. Something over voltage? I put a fuse in the HV feed to the OT and make it accessible on the back panel (usually taking up the spot of the old ground switch). I figure the speaker cord might be broken or unplugged or something hinky might happen and pop that fuse real quick (I use fact-acting fuses there) and you can replace it and keep playing. The HV secondary fuse is buried in the amp. I figure if THAT one dies, you've got a blown filter cap or power tube or something bad and you're gonna have to take the chassis out anyways.
Thanks for thinking of the details like that. I agree with the one channel thing anyways. I do not own a channel-switching amplifier; I just use my pedals. My cousin uses a HRD and hates the dirty channel, same thing. It's a bunch of extra tubes costing you money and taking up space and not adding much benefit in some cases.
Quote from: rockgardenlove on December 30, 2006, 08:13:13 PM
I don't think you can produce an amp without competing somewhat with amps already on the market.
I actually didn't mean it would not be competing with the existing stuff. I meant that in some cases it might be better to compete with a different set of features instead of competing with the same features that the competitors allready have (with the nice well known logo).
Quote from: sfr on December 30, 2006, 08:16:07 PM
As far as the hubcaps go - I'm not sold 100% on the looks, but honestly, 90% of the time I make custom grill cloths out of breathable fabric so all our amps match. Not certain having not seen one in person, but there seems to be enough room and the cap seems recessed enough that I could mount my standard fabric-stretched-over a wood frame method of making a grill cloth (I used to have an amp with switchable grill cloths) in there, and then you don't see the hubcap at all.
Actually, it would be really great if Visual Sound could add some sort of mounting mechanism to make it easy to mount that kind of wood frame. They might even be able to sell some different extra grills with some fancy colours etc. to put on top of that hubcap. With some clever attaching mechanism, they could even be made so easy to change, that the palyer could select those to suit the mood he is in. :) It might be bit different for guitar amps, but that kind of stuff sells quite well for iPods and other stuff like that.
Quote from: Branimir on December 31, 2006, 01:18:00 AM
Touring bands will still use marshall stacks because they're reliable and road worthy, get the tone, repaired in every city..
...And Marshalls usually fit their mental image of what looks cool on stage.
I remember that when Peavey released their drums with a special "floating rims" system, that sounded great
but looked like "cotton reels" - that's all that "muso's" remembered about them .... oh and the snare
that looked like a "Big Mac" !!
People in general dont go for stuff that looks "different" .... I'm NOT one of them BTW :D
Best of luck with them
MM.
Hey RG, I just watched the video. The amps look great. The insides look great also. I really dig the idea of a killer clean amp combined with an OD pedal that can give up to 4 channels. I think that is a great idea, not to mention the DIY biasing when changing tubes. I hope you do well with this. Also, it's cool seeing an actual person instead of the letters "R.G." 8)
First off it's great to see these finally amps come out. Congrats R.G. and Visual Sound!
The speaker grill doesn't really bug me that much but I do have a habit of suspending my beliefs if there is chance at improved tone. I presume the grill is removable. If so then if someone does not think it is doing anything for them they can take it off. Maybe a suggestion though would be to put grill cloth (that is maybe removable for the option of either setups ?) on to cover the diffuser. It might help calm the musicians down who are whining about the grill. If need be you could offset the baffle to accommodate the grill cloth frame. I personal dislike having my speaker directly exposed to the performance environment so it bothers me a bit at that level. I'm sure R.G. will kicking to correct or explain the reasoning if need be.
Andrew
maybe if they were painted in a way where they look less obviously like hubcaps stuck to the front of the amp. Paint a big V over the front or something.
I'm doubting R.G. and Mr. Weil are going to make the cover removable (actually, it already looks removable by the screws surrounding it), it seems they put quite a bit of research into just that little tidbit and I'm betting the grilles aren't very cheap to produce.
besides that, i think adding grill cloth might take away from some of the high frequency-preserving aspects of the grill.
Language I'd change in the ad:
1) "Protection circuitry...all critical components" - change to something like "Protection circuitry prevents costly power component failures"
2) "Toroidal power transformer" - "Lightweight, low noise toroidal power transformer". Surely the toroidal power saves a pound or two in the final weight, no? I'd think that'd help sell to a gigging musician who doesn't know a toroid tranny from a burnt donut.
And hey just think, if you'd made the amp self mic'd you could've included the speaker in a NFB loop! ;)
Yeah, like I was saying, there's a lot of stuff I feel Visual Sound left out in their advertising that shouldn't have been, there's a hell of a lot of great ideas that people aren't going to know about without the initial word being spoken.
Barcode: I was thinking the same thing, a grill cloth would baffle the sound a bit.
R.G.: Do you know of any units being sent to any guitar stores in Lubbock? I'm really curious about the 60 Watt Workhorse and would love to try one out. How much do they weigh?
My personal experience with grill cloths is that if you can comfortable breath through the fabric when placing it over your mouth, it doesn't seem to affect sound at all. I generally use lightweight, colourful fabrics from the fabric store, as opposed to the heavy-duty stuff you usally see on grille cloths, as mine is merely decorative. As such, I have no experience with the heavy duty stuff.
I used light weight cloth on my cabs that don't alter my sound in any major way. It is just decorative to cover and provide basic protection of the speakers. The grill cloth is really a compromise to get some of the advantages of the grill without having to alter the "classic" amp look that maybe scaring some musicians away. While the grills are paint-able some people will just dislike them either in shape or perhaps even in function since beauty can be found in the imperfections. ;) Some may also view them as another mojo thing being pushed despite the fact that it may work. That could be enough of a turn off for a sale.
As for the realiabilty feature I look at it with a comparison of software. Software sells based on new features not realiabilty. If Microsoft forthcoming Vista had no new features but was actually made stable and secure how many copies would they really sell ? Yes there are some that will praise the stabilty and perhaps admins would like the security but honestly people don't care about those things. They would sit say "I paid alot of money to get the same thing I had before." They would not appricate the added robustness...well not until something bad happen of course.
So it might be hard to sell those amps based on that feature. I would put alittle more focus on the flexibility that R.G. mentioned before. Maybe explain better that the J&K pedal is being included as a replacement for multiple amp channels. As of now it just looks like a throw in to get people to buy the amp like a free T-shirt.
Andrew
Well put Tonegod. That was the other point that I forgot actually :). He should probably explain (in marketing terms) why the J&K is being included. People are just going to think that the included pedal is just a gimme and won't consider a part of the amp, as you intended.
I'm going to make a post about these amps on the Guitarworld forums, if that's alright with you R.G. :D.
Thank you all for your comments.
Re: NAMM
Winter NAMM is in Anaheim, in about two weeks. I don't know whether the plan is to take amps that will be sold. Those of you who will be attending and have ambitions along those lines I suggest you drop me a PM so I can get you in touch with the guys who do that planning.
Re: Grilles
As I said, people either love them or hate them.
The sound diffuser grille is easily removable, from the front. Six screws hold it on its rubber gasket to the front of the baffle. The screws are independent of the fixing for the speaker, so you can remove the grille from the front, no problems. Did I mention that it's paintable? :icon_biggrin:
The speaker is held by machine screws from the inside into Tee-Nuts set into the front baffle. The machine screws cure a pet peeve of mine that replacing a speaker once usually wobbles out the holes unless special woodscrew/machine screw hanger bolts are used. I like the Tee-nuts, as they increase the strength of the baffle at the speaker's edge, instead of reducing it like screws into the baffle wood do.
The baffle is inset so that the grille does not make contact if you lay the amp on its face. So there is room to add a wooden frame and speaker cloth at the front of the amp by placing fixing fittings in each corner of the baffle board.
The grille design was actually fairly complicated. The spokes, for instance, are rounded to the inside, not the outside. This minimizes diffraction lobing from the spokes. There were a lot of different shaped diffusion cones that were tried before the specific shape that's in there got fixed. In spite of the design calculations, the final testing on the grille was by listening.
Re: Speakers
The speakers that are in the Workhorse are the result of interviewing substantially every Eminence and Celestion and other brands in a 12" guitar speaker. The selection was done literally by A-B listening tests of a zillion 12" speakers in a reference enclosure. The particular Celestion that's in there preserves bass thump at low volumes without being muddy at high volume. The treble and mid balance is nice, perhaps a bit of luck with the acoustics of the enclosure. But then speaker tone is a personal taste, too.
Re: Language I'd change in the ad:
Good points. I'll pass them along. Thanks!
Re: ..just think, if you'd made the amp self mic'd you could've included the speaker in a NFB loop!
... um ... that just might cause intractable oscillation and burnouts... How do I know this? :icon_redface:
Re: Units in Lubbock, or Toronto, or Denmark, or Denver, or Tierra del Fuego...
The best way to find a dealer who may have one is to look at the dealer list at visualsound.net, then call up your local dealer and ask them if they ordered any. Besides, if they didn't and get requests, they just might see the error of their ways and order them... :icon_twisted:
I feel pretty happy with some of the things that the amps have already done. The last few NAMMs I got a steady stream of techies looking the amps over and muttering about the 9Vdc output and the biasing indicators. I think these just might start showing up in other amps. I was considering applying for patents on them, but found what I considered prior art, in expired patents no less. So there is not a problem using the ideas, even if I had to rediscover them. Bummed me out to have come in to the party late again though. Did I ever tell you about when I invented the ground-effect lawn mower? :icon_lol:
Re: weight
The 60W is ... heavy... about 72 pounds as I remember, although that's been a while. The thing is about the size of any other 2-12 combo, uses normal speakers and normal OT and choke iron, although we did save about 10 pounds off the normal E-I power transformer iron by using a toroidal. The cabinet is 3/4" (18mm) thick plywood, so that ate some of the 10 pounds back. The 30W Pony is actually a good place to look first. It's quite loud for an amp of its size. It sounds good at bedroom practice volumes because it has good bass response at low volumes, and its distortion does not depend on the amp being pushed into distortion. So you can get pleasing tone, even muddy blues distortion or ear-bleed tone at low volumes. My brother-in-law and I were doing this over Christmas.
Here's a trick that didn't get into the ad copy yet. If you have an amp simulator box and want to warm up the tone, you can plug it right into that "CD In" jack on the Pony. It goes right into the power amp input, no tone shaping on it. In effect, you use the DSP box for its emulation of whatever amp you like, and get to borrow the tube output section directly. I like what comes out in the limited testing I've done.
Re: Grille cloth
My experience is that the old saw from hifi about speaker grille cloth is true - optical transparency is a good predictor of acoustic transparency.
Re: J&H and channels
Good points. Thank you. We probably should hit that harder in ad copy.
Re: Selling reliability
You're absolutely correct - modern marketing methodology holds that visible features per dollar wins. Trying to step around that mantra is a calculated risk. Fortunately, Bob is a musician-oriented guy, not an MBA. He wants to build tools for musicians that work for them. That slogan "Real tone for real people" is not just something catchy to say. Musicians really ought to be able to buy an amp that is flexible and works well for a long time, and is easy to fix if it does break.
Once again, thank you for the comments, both ways.
QuoteRe: Units in Lubbock, or Toronto, or Denmark, or Denver, or Tierra del Fuego...
The best way to find a dealer who may have one is to look at the dealer list at visualsound.net, then call up your local dealer and ask them if they ordered any. Besides, if they didn't and get requests, they just might see the error of their ways and order them... icon_twisted
So from the looks of it, the only place that gets Visual Sound stuff is the smallest guitar shop in Lubbock, who probably won't carry the amp outside of special order :(. I'll have to talk to those guys and see if they can get one in... I'm sure they'll be quite curious as well.
What is the price for the 60w version?
I'll have to look into these, simply for the single-channel factor. That's the entire reason I got my crate powerblock. I use pedals, never the "dirty channel," so it was the right choice for me. Now, if there was a head version, I'd be sold! I don't need another big box sitting around, room is tight in the practice room already.
couple other thoughts about generating the sound through pedals instead of amp distortion. Seems to me Hendrix's "Marshall distortion" was in a large part from a pedal (i.e. Fuzz Face), and some fans say this (that the Marshall was basically a power amp). Amp generated distortion (while it can be highly satisfying) can present all sorts of problems in trying to control the acoustic volume while maintaining the tone. Look at all the extraneous equipment out there to try to deal with this--attenuators (Hot Plate, Power Brake, Air Brake, etc.), external loading then re-amplifying, specialized attenuators with solid state circuitry in the attenuator unit (the "Ultimate Attenuator") or circuitry inside the amp ("power scaling"), etc. I think the volume is more controllable when generating the tone mainly through pedals, IME. When trying to get distortion the old fashioned way from an old amp, the noise level can be pretty bad too, sometimes. Lastly, I think the diffusors should stay (sounds like a good idea) and grill cloth isn't necessary, it's just the aesthetics!