Moogerfooger schems? WherE?
In their filing cabinet.
DO EXPECT to find schematics for pedals "floating around" when the pedals have a cheap retail price and the manufacturer expects someone else to do the servicing/repair.
DO NOT EXPECT to find schematics of pedals "floating around" when the manufacturer charges a premium price and expects to provide servicing/repair themselves.
On the other hand, there are many schematics floating around for different Moog synthesizer products over the years....just not the pedals.
Exactly, I found schems for their synths but not for the pedals...
But than again, ZVex pedals are expensive (although not much as the Moog) and there are some things floating around in the web. But we can't compare 600$ pedals to 300$ pedals... :-[
Tucked down Bob Moog`s underpants where NOOOBODY`S gonna find them!!! :icon_lol:
sick :P
I'm inexperienced but I'm sure instead of doing a Moog pedal look at some of the synth module schems on the net and build one of them that has similar features
Lots of CA3086 and LM13600 chips. If you are gonna do DIY, you can come up with a simpler design.
Besides, I keep having noise issues with my Moogerfooger LPF. Great sound, but now there is a whine in the sound, probably from the charge pump to produce a bipolar supply.
Sean Costello
Very nice moog stuff in this page.
http://www.fantasyjackpalance.com/fjp/sound/synth/synthdata/16-moog-minimoog.html (http://www.fantasyjackpalance.com/fjp/sound/synth/synthdata/16-moog-minimoog.html)
schematics and layout for mini moog, micro mooog stuff to, could help.
QuoteDO NOT EXPECT to find schematics of pedals "floating around" when the manufacturer charges a premium price and expects to provide servicing/repair themselves.
The biggest problem with most of the people is that they know so much what is not true.
http://analogguru.an.funpic.de/schematics/Moog_307A_2aPhaser.gif
http://analogguru.an.funpic.de/schematics/Moog_307A_2bPhaser.gif
http://analogguru.an.funpic.de/schematics/Moog_307A_3aPhaser.gif
http://analogguru.an.funpic.de/schematics/Moog_307A_3bPhaser.gif
http://analogguru.an.funpic.de/schematics/Moog_307A_3cPhaser.gif
I believe you only need to replace 2 of the CA3094 with 1 LM13600 and the CA 3046 with CA3086 - any problems ?
After looking at the schematic you will get a feeling about the difference between Moog and Zvex, even when both of them charge high prices. One is clear: the 12-stage-phaser was not developed on the kitchen-table.
analogguru
Those 307A phaser circuits may or may not have anything to do with the current stompbox phaser bearing the name Moog.
And, one reason they are floating about, is that the company that made it went out of business twenty years ago.
There is no commercial relationship between the extinct original Moog company, and the present moog company (except that both of them, at some time, had the late Bob Moog as one of their designers).
My guess is that the current Moog phaser is much simpler. Also, I would also guess that LM13600 chips are used for EVERYTHING. Bypass, phasing, VCLFO, resonance paths, you name it. The LPF I have uses the LM13600 for bypass (which I do not think is a good thing, as it is pretty noisy sounding with my amps), and the ring modulator uses the LM13600 for the ring modulation and squelch, which seems to work out, as it is very low noise.
It is probably a safe gess that the basic OTA-style phase shifting is the same in both the old and new Moog phasers.
Sean Costello
Some time ago I had the chance to look inside a moogerfoooger phaser and wanted to trace the schematic and it did not appear to be simpler than the old 12-stage-phaser. I had the impression that it is a modernized reiissue of the old circuit. Duble-sided-PCB was full of components. Finally I didn´t trace the schematic cause for the money it is sold it is not worth to "rebuild" it. Sadly it is not a rack-unit, as a rack-unit it would have more commercial success. For the guitarist it is too expensive and studio/synth guys don´t like stompboxes - but it is sounding amazingly, you can get an addict.
analogguru
Big difference may be the presence/absence of the limiter/compressor on the original Moog rackmount phaser. I do not know if the Moogerfooger has a similar subcircuit. As for complexity of the floor pedal vs the rackmount, well, there are concrete limits to how simple you can make an allpass filter based around an OTA. Once you have 12 allpass stages, that circuit is going to look busy, no matter how you slice it.
http://modezero.com/moog-12-stage-phaser.htm
http://modezero.com/moogerfoogerphaser.htm
Other major differences include the substantially different sweep rates on the two products (10hz maz vs 250hz), and the rackmount's capability of selecting not only more phasing tap points (4, 6, 8, 10, 12) but also where the regeneration tap point is.
Certainly, the fact of being 12-stage units, and the fact of being OTA-based units, will create many commonalities in how they can sound, but the two are clearly different beasts. Anyone looking at the scanned schems for the older rackmount unit surely has something delicious to look at, and a great source of information, but it is NOT the floor pedal and should not be confused with it.
I can not vouch for what anyone might have in their personal off-line collection, or what may or may not have been reverse engineered. However, I stand by my assertion that in general one should not expect to see factory schematics in circulation for expensive, complex circuits that the manufacturer does not expect guys at the repair bench in your local music store to be working on.
Doesn't matter if they are simple things like Cornish pedals, either. If the manufacturer wishes to assert their "brand" by maintaining quality control over repairs and product performance, they keep the schem/information to themselves. The alternative is that somebody with insufficient expertise attempts repairs/mods, and their poor work ends up being the first and only time somebody gets to hear that product. Not a great advertisement. In the case of things like Boss, DOD, etc., there are enough pedals in circulation and on display in stores that some local guy's poor soldering job is unlikely to form the basis of any prospective consumer's idea of the pedal, so they don't mind releasing the info that will permit the local guy to do that lousy soldering job. Most of us here, though, will have limited opportunity to try out the higher-end pedals or hear them. Those manufacturers want that occasion to feel like you're driving a Ferrari, each and every time it happens. Eventually, the information WILL leak out and disseminate, but the intent is to maintain control over the brand for as long as possible, until it is well established and nothing can dislodge it.
Quote from: GREEN FUZ on May 07, 2007, 05:49:02 PM
Tucked down Bob Moog`s underpants where NOOOBODY`S gonna find them!!! :icon_lol:
:icon_eek:
Very nice eight stage LM13700 phaser, including high quality PCB for sale: http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth/PHASESHIFTER2007/PHASESHIFTER2007.php
I can recommend Ray.
could the mfos 8 stage phaser be used with +9/-9 power supply? maybe with a 1044 charge pump?
Quote from: trevize on May 09, 2007, 04:03:09 AM
could the mfos 8 stage phaser be used with +9/-9 power supply? maybe with a 1044 charge pump?
Surely 2 batteries would be better?
Quote from: Paul Perry (Frostwave) on May 08, 2007, 09:08:57 PM
Very nice eight stage LM13700 phaser, including high quality PCB for sale: http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth/PHASESHIFTER2007/PHASESHIFTER2007.php
I can recommend Ray.
It's things like this I'm looking for. Great stuff! Thks
Check this out:
http://home.debitel.net/user/jhaible/hj.html
Aharon
Quote from: StephenGiles on May 09, 2007, 07:04:18 AM
Quote from: trevize on May 09, 2007, 04:03:09 AM
could the mfos 8 stage phaser be used with +9/-9 power supply? maybe with a 1044 charge pump?
Surely 2 batteries would be better?
Ray notes on his site that current needs are 20ma a side at +/-12v. Not great for battery life, and pushing the capabilities of a charge pump.
You know what we need? We need a little retrofit board for conversion of 9-12VAC to +/-9vdc or +/-12vdc. Something you can stick inside a pedal and conveniently use an AC wallwart to get the requisite bipolar supply. Choose your regulator value (9, 12, 15) from the 78L series (they all fit in the same space) and away you go.
FWIW - pic of the 'fooger phaser here...
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=42404.msg308295#msg308295
~ Charlie
going back in time with the Search Butt On (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=19493.msg118263#msg118263)
Quote from: Mark Hammer on May 09, 2007, 08:18:19 AM
Ray notes on his site that current needs are 20ma a side at +/-12v. Not great for battery life, and pushing the capabilities of a charge pump.
You know what we need? We need a little retrofit board for conversion of 9-12VAC to +/-9vdc or +/-12vdc. Something you can stick inside a pedal and conveniently use an AC wallwart to get the requisite bipolar supply. Choose your regulator value (9, 12, 15) from the 78L series (they all fit in the same space) and away you go.
Mark is right, (Ray's stuff is really for use with modular synths, that typically have +-15 or +-12 rails) but remember, the 78L series positive regulators and the 79L negative regulators have different pinouts. When I troubleshoot anything with a TO220 reg, I have to remember that the metal case of a 78 reg is ground - very handy - BUT, for the 79, the case is the - output!!!
QuoteYou know what we need? We need a little retrofit board for conversion of 9-12VAC to +/-9vdc or +/-12vdc. Something you can stick inside a pedal and conveniently use an AC wallwart to get the requisite bipolar supply. Choose your regulator value (9, 12, 15) from the 78L series (they all fit in the same space) and away you go.
Now I don't normally like to help out you stuck up stompbox dudes ;), but I like Ray so if it'll get some of y'all to turn that awesome phasor into stompbox form well, here you go.
http://modular.fonik.de/soundlab/sl_psu.pdf
hope this helps.
:)
What a man!! What a citizen!!! Thanks brother zebra! :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
Just out of curiosity, because I don't have any means at my disposal to evaluate it at the moment, is that the sort of thing that can fit in a 1590BB lying on its side?
You know what Mark, I'm not sure. I have not seen any completed builds. But if you were to open it in acrobat that would be the actual size, cause I think it's ready for PNP. Here is the topic at electro-music http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12968 It is a pretty swell circuit, could come in real handy.
Looks like maybe 4.25 by 1.50 Can't remember what size that hammond is. All right lets see some synth based diy guitar pedals!
Quote from: Wild Zebra on May 10, 2007, 01:06:48 PM
http://modular.fonik.de/soundlab/sl_psu.pdf
??? Don't those regulators want to see 3 (or is it 2) volts above their output?
Right, they do. The board accommodates 9v regulators seamlessly and they WILL work with the 12.73v you get when you rectify 9VAC. Alternatively, you can just plug in a 12VAC wallwart without any changes to the board itself and get roughyly 17V rectified, which will do you for a +/-12VDC supply. That's the beauty of AC - it gets turned into something else by the regulation and plug polarity is moot. The working assumption with DC is that the wallwart voltage IS the voltage and that the pin and shankpolarities ARE the ones needed for power..
Doesn't the diode and cap arrangment make some sort of voltage multiplier? Which probably gets you enough DC for the 12 volt regulators.
Kind of like 2 of the second version on this page http://www.play-hookey.com/ac_theory/ps_v_multipliers.html (http://www.play-hookey.com/ac_theory/ps_v_multipliers.html)
More or less. The conversion factor is roughly 1.414. Rectify 9VAC in the absence of a regulator and you get 12.726VDC. The regulator wants at least 2VDC more at its input than at its output. With a 9VAC wallwart, you could make use of essentially any 3-pin regulator at 10VDC or below.
Note that while the conversion yields 12.726VDC in this instance, that supply voltage is not particularly ripple free. Depending on the cap size you've selected for the PSU board (stock shows 2200uf but that's a chunky cap) and the needs of the effect circuit itself, you MIGHT be able to get away without the regulators and just take the power from the non-ground side of C3 and C4. Certainly makes for a smaller board, but you probably want to make 60hz drones a vital part of your music if you choose to go that route. :icon_wink:
Right I've figured it out now. I'd misundstood the term multiplier and thought it meant you'd get more than 12.7 volts per side, but then the penny dropped :) It's basically full wave rectifying both "sides" of the AC to give you +12.7 DC and -12.7 DC. As oppsed to using a bridge rectifier to full wave rectify 9 volts AC into just +12.7 DC so thats where the term multipler comes from.
Bingo!