Firstly, lets get the terminology right – this is a vibrato (pitch modulation), not a tremolo (amplitude modulation). Tube vibrato is not an original concept, similar schematics proliferate in vintage tube amps. I was also inspired by mac's 'Fet Phaser Idea' DIY Stompboxes thread (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=67167.0), Rick Campbell's 'Possible Start On a Tube Phaser/Vibrato Pedal Project' AX84 thread (http://www.ax84.com/bbs/dm.php?thread=331347) and R.G.'s The technology of phase shifters and flangers at GEOFEX (http://www.geofex.com/).
So I thought I'd try something similar using two 6111 submini tubes at 12 volts. This allows for only two stages of phase shift, but the effect is very pleasing and useable. More stages could be added for a deeper effect. The advantage of using just two tubes is that it keeps the milliamp requirements down - it's quite logical to run the two tubes' heaters in series from 12 volts, keeping the current draw down to just ~300ma (!!). I dare say that the 6111's could be replaced with 12AU7 without too much trouble, or indeed with 6021 or 7327 subminis.
The LFO is modified from the one I used in my Vibracaster (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=70160.0) (which was actually a tremolo – confusing huh?). I've added a 'Range' switch to give more control over the speed. I made my own little vactrol using a 3mm red LED and two LDRs which I filtched from a kid's toy (sorry kid). They are all soldered to a little piece of perf and light insulated.
This is how it is on my breadboard right now, I've been tweaking away at it all week and I have to say that I'm pretty pleased with it. As usual, I don't claim to be a whizzbang EE, so any suggestions, improvements, mod, hacks or derision welcome. Theoretically it should also be possible to modify the circuit for phasing - that has so far eluded me - any suggestions?. I'll get some soundclips together over the next few days.
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/VintageVibe.jpg)
Oh, yeah. Quite nice man, quite nice.
WOW! Very cool ckt! Looking fwd to the sound clips! :D
Keep up the great work and keep us posted on the progress! ;)
oh please.....post a schematic using 5672's........please...... ;)
Dan
Quote from: svstee on February 14, 2009, 01:54:26 PM
Oh, yeah. Quite nice man, quite nice.
Quote from: tranceracer on February 14, 2009, 02:09:26 PM
WOW! Very cool ckt! Looking fwd to the sound clips! :D
Keep up the great work and keep us posted on the progress! ;)
Thank you gentlemen!
Quote from: danielzink on February 14, 2009, 02:18:10 PM
oh please.....post a schematic using 5672's........please...... ;)
Dan
Sorry Dan it's not possible to do this with 5672's. The second and third stages are cathodyne phase inverters, the signal at the plate is 180 degrees out of phase with the signal at the cathode. With the 5672 the cathode is internally connected to the heater +ve, which does not allow it to be biased in the same way. Basically the cathode bias of a 5672 is fixed at the +ve heater voltage and inaccessible.
Nice one, look forward to hearing it!
how's the sound compared to an opamp based phaser? Have you tried to implenent any feedback, like a resonance control yet? This is a very cool idea.
Quote from: Boogdish on February 15, 2009, 10:27:35 PM
how's the sound compared to an opamp based phaser? Have you tried to implenent any feedback, like a resonance control yet? This is a very cool idea.
Well, it's not a phaser at the moment, it's a vibrato. The vibrato I would describe as 'wobbly' and 'underwatery' !! As I undestand it, a phaser is a vibrato with the addition of a feedback loop. I've tried a few ways to implement this, and have got tonal change (and whistling!), but nothing I would say is a usable resonance control. Any suggestions?
sorry, I meant to say vibrato. I had just finished reading GEO article on phasers/flangers and had phasers on the brain.
wouldn't a phaser just include some feedback and a dry blend?
Quote from: caress on February 16, 2009, 11:30:48 AM
wouldn't a phaser just include some feedback and a dry blend?
Yeah - I'm having trouble implementing that for some reason. What I though should work doesn't work as I expected. Anyone care to draw me a diagram?
all tube - you could use another 6111 as a splitter/buffer stage. just split the signal and use 1/2 the 6111 for the clean blend, 1/2 to go to vibe section. resistor/pot passive output mixer.
for resonance you could tap off pin 7 from the second 6111 and send back to pin 7 of the first 6111? maybe check out the ross phaser schematic, they use an opamp in their feedback loop... not 100% sure why, though.
here's the schem for reference:
(http://www.home-wrecker.com/ross_phaser_orange2.png)
a bit BIG!
OK, here's a soundclip: http://www.aronnelson.com/DIYFiles/up/Vintage_Vibe.mp3
Signal path:
Squier Telecaster Custom (HB) > Vintage Vibe > Roland Bolt 60 watt tube combo > Shure SM58 > Event Echo Gina 24 soundcard > Wavelab
No other processing. It's a montage of a few different settings. There are a few crackles because it's a breadboard not a pedal.
I've pretty much decided to build the Vintage Vibe as it is now, without modding it to do phasing too. I'll develop a phaser from it later on and do a seperate pedal - I've had a few hints from a certain 'tubey' gentleman. ;)
Love it! Wish I had time to breadboard it, but it's going to have to wait a month or so unfortunately.
In the middle of my build right now. I'm using 7327 tubes instead of 6111, they are identical functionally. While swapping tubes out on my breadboard I've noticed that some are louder than others, so I think I'm going to have to tweak a couple of resistor values to get unity when I finish my build. Here's the layout I'm using,:
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/VintageVibeLayout.jpg)
Parameters of LDR?
Quote from: German on February 19, 2009, 06:18:09 PM
Parameters of LDR?
Typical dark resistance = 1M Typical light resistance = 2K - 4K
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/LDR.jpg)
I've completed both boards and tested the oscillator:
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0002-13.jpg)
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0003-10.jpg)
........and here's the prototype on breadboard - sheesh what a mess:
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0001-11.jpg)
You can see my homemade optocoupler on the right, covered in black foam. The mass of caps and diodes on the left is a MAX1044 charge pump circuit delivering ~70 volts - used in 'other experiments'.
Again, beautiful work Rick. That rainbow ribbon wire makes me so jealous, but glad the 7327's are working out!
Phew, that breadboard isn't a mess at all - better looking than some of my finished builds! Your idea of writing the component values on bits of tape like that is sheer genius. Love all these tube circuits you've come up with, I must source some tubes and start playing.
Rob.
Could two 12AU7s be subbed for the 6111? EDIT: Read the opening post, so I guess so.
With two 12AU7s with 12V DC this thing would draw just over 600mA wouldn't it?
Quote from: sweetwilly on February 20, 2009, 07:17:51 AM
Again, beautiful work Rick. That rainbow ribbon wire makes me so jealous, but glad the 7327's are working out!
Thanks Willy, though I've got to stop work on it for a few days to build a 'Murder One' for some dodgy geezer.
Quote from: ralley on February 20, 2009, 08:04:53 AM
Your idea of writing the component values on bits of tape like that is sheer genius.
Thats because I can't read resistor colour codes - I use a multimeter to check them.
Quote from: ralley on February 20, 2009, 08:04:53 AM
Love all these tube circuits you've come up with, I must source some tubes and start playing.
Thanks! And yes you must!
Quote from: kurtlives on February 20, 2009, 09:25:51 AM
Could two 12AU7s be subbed for the 6111? EDIT: Read the opening post, so I guess so.
With two 12AU7s with 12V DC this thing would draw just over 600mA wouldn't it?
Hi Chris,
A 12AU7 will draw 150ma @ 12.6 volts. Or 300ma @ 6.3 volts using the centre tap. So two 12AU7 @ 12volts will draw 300ma. Or you can use the centre taps and run the two tube's 'half filaments' in series - that would still draw 300ma.
So the answer is that yes you should be able to sub 12AU7 for the 6111. And whether you use 12AU7 or 6111 the current draw will be the same. If I were using two 12AU7 I would run both the tube's heaters at 12 volts and leave the centre taps unused.
I have just finished my build. I built directly from the layout that I posted above, so I can verify that the layout is 100% correct! :icon_lol:
Photos to follow......................
Quote from: frequencycentral on February 20, 2009, 12:44:31 PM
Quote from: sweetwilly on February 20, 2009, 07:17:51 AM
Again, beautiful work Rick. That rainbow ribbon wire makes me so jealous, but glad the 7327's are working out!
Thanks Willy, though I've got to stop work on it for a few days to build a 'Murder One' for some dodgy geezer.
Hmmm... I resemble that remark! ;D
Here's my completed pedal, works a treat and identically to the version still on my breadboard.
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0006-12.jpg)
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0007-9.jpg)
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0010-5.jpg)
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0008-7.jpg)
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0009-9.jpg)
Quote from: frequencycentral on February 27, 2009, 11:30:26 AM
Here's my completed pedal, works a treat and identically to the version still on my breadboard.
Excellent work! That's a beautiful build!
Looks great Rick!
I am contemplating putting a similar circuit in a pre-amp I am working on. So does it use two LDRs that are joined with one LED?
Quote from: kurtlives on February 27, 2009, 12:35:59 PM
Looks great Rick!
I am contemplating putting a similar circuit in a pre-amp I am working on. So does it use two LDRs that are joined with one LED?
Thanks Chris. Yes, two LDR's and one 3mm red LED is what I used, you can see them mounted together on the oscillator board here, bottom left:
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0003-10.jpg)
I didn't have to encapsulate them, as I thought I would, though my enclosure has vents in and a status LED. I just put a piece of card (a cut up submini tube box - what else!) to isolate the LDRs from the vents and the status LED. You can see that clearly in one of the gutshots. You may have to consider sealing the LDR's/LED against external light sources depending on the nature of your build. Having said that, even with the back off the enclosure the effect still works, it just isn't very deep.
EDIT: I can't vouch for how the LDR's/LED will wok with different size or different colour LED's to the one I used. I guess you would have to tweak the resistor value that is in series with the LED and Depth pot.
hot damn!
sounds so sweet i melted .... seems like the vibrato i'd definitely use on vibraphone or piano for some tiki-lounge vibe (no pun intended)
great!
Hey Rick
Which effect would you recommend to use for a surf sound? the vintage vibe or the vibecaster?
If I go with the vibecaster, I could just add it to my existing valvecaster. The valvecaster is running at 157 volts DC two transformers back to back 120/12-12/120 I'd run the transistor portion at 12 volts of course :-)
Glen
Quote from: biggy boy on March 16, 2009, 11:50:17 PM
Hey Rick
Which effect would you recommend to use for a surf sound? the vintage vibe or the vibecaster?
If I go with the vibecaster, I could just add it to my existing valvecaster. The valvecaster is running at 157 volts DC two transformers back to back 120/12-12/120 I'd run the transistor portion at 12 volts of course :-)
Glen
Being a British rock type, I only have a vague idea what surf sound actually is...........in my book there are only two types of music: Rock 'n Roll. :icon_biggrin:
Have a listen to both soundclips and judge for yourself.
The Vibracaster mod is so easy to add to an existing Valvecaster, you should do it anyway.
The Vintage Vibe is different again, getting almost into chorus territory.
Do both!
Quote from: frequencycentral on March 17, 2009, 03:24:57 AM
Being a British rock type, I only have a vague idea what surf sound actually is...........in my book there are only two types of music: Rock 'n Roll. :icon_biggrin:
So you don't know bands like The Shadows?! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadows)
They are British!!! :icon_evil:
Quote from: Renegadrian on March 17, 2009, 11:23:37 AM
Quote from: frequencycentral on March 17, 2009, 03:24:57 AM
Being a British rock type, I only have a vague idea what surf sound actually is...........in my book there are only two types of music: Rock 'n Roll. :icon_biggrin:
So you don't know bands like The Shadows?! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadows)
They are British!!! :icon_evil:
Yeah I know The Shadows - I used to be in a band many years ago with the daughter of Tony Meehan. The Shadows were surf sound? OK!
A lot of their songs are said to be surf, a little different from the Beach Boys stuff, my sicilian friends from Adels are also Surf sometimes, check'em out on --> myspace (http://www.myspace.com/adelsrockabilly)
I love the track called El Siciliano, tipically Shadows...
Quote from: Renegadrian on March 17, 2009, 01:11:37 PM
I love the track called El Siciliano, tipically Shadows...
Love it - very Quentin Tarantino. As a kid I was obsessed with 'Apache'.
Yeah, we're relaxing and going a bit OT...Back to my breadboard, there's a 12BL6 waiting for me... :icon_razz:
Quote from: Renegadrian on March 17, 2009, 01:11:37 PM
A lot of their songs are said to be surf, a little different from the Beach Boys stuff, my sicilian friends from Adels are also Surf sometimes, check'em out on --> myspace (http://www.myspace.com/adelsrockabilly)
I love the track called El Siciliano, tipically Shadows...
Adriano!
Your right that song is great!!!
Now thats surf! :icon_cool:
And the song called Don't call me daddy. It's surf meets rock-a-billy
I was at your site and listened to your stuff using the vibracaster Surf Rider nice!
Glen
:icon_wink:
Hey, frequencycentral, did you alredy made a phaser?
Have you seen this one - http://www.solorb.com/elect/musiccirc/liquidator1/index.html
Quote from: German on March 21, 2009, 02:01:51 AM
Hey, frequencycentral, did you alredy made a phaser?
Have you seen this one - http://www.solorb.com/elect/musiccirc/liquidator1/index.html
If I had already made a phaser you would already know about it! It's next on my to-do-list, at the moment I'm busy building a few Murder One amps for people and finishing my Sub Zero design.
Yeah, I saw that phaser you linked to, Mark Hammer posted a thread about it a while back. It's a big piece of kit! And full of transformers. Mine will be submini............
Did you see this one: http://www.effectrode.com/website/phaseomatic/pm_main.htm
Found this site
It's a simple all tube phase shift osilator (tube vibrato) He's running it at a high voltage.
Not sure if it would work at 12-24 volts?
http://terrydownsmusic.com/technotes/vibratocircuits/vibrato_circuits.htm
Glen
Quote from: biggy boy on March 21, 2009, 09:47:22 AM
Found this site
It's a simple all tube phase shift osilator (tube vibrato) He's running it at a high voltage.
Not sure if it would work at 12-24 volts?
http://terrydownsmusic.com/technotes/vibratocircuits/vibrato_circuits.htm
Glen
Tube PSO's don't work at low voltage. :( It's no real loss, as a transistor PSO sounds the same as a tube PSO, ie neither are in the signal path.
Though it might be do-able using a tapered PSO: http://www.freewebs.com/valvewizard2/TaperedPhaseShiftOscillators.pdf
didn't have 6111, so i tried it using some 12au7s
got nothing resembling vibrato or something of that sort
did you try this on other tubes, freq?
Quote from: nordine on March 22, 2009, 12:40:02 PM
didn't have 6111, so i tried it using some 12au7s
got nothing resembling vibrato or something of that sort
did you try this on other tubes, freq?
I've tried both 6111 and 7327 subminis with success. I can't see any reason why it should not work with two 12AU7. You just need to ensure that the two cathodyne phase inverters are giving out signals at the plate and cathode that when mixed cancel each other out.
EDIT: With 12AU7 you may also need to change to plate and cathode resistors on the first and last stages to achieve unity wit the bypassed signal, as those tubes have different gain to the ones I used.
Would anyone be interested in a Vero layout for this? I want to build it, but if I'm just makeing one for myself I'll use the Perf one that frequencycentral generously did. If anyone else thinks they might find a Vero layout useful, however, I'll give it a shot, and I prefer
Vero over Perf anyways.
i would like a vero
now that smallbear supplies 6111's i can jump on all these tube projects :icon_cool:
I seem to have most of the parts for this project in my parts box except the 6111s and the LDRs. Is there a UK or European supplier of 6111s at all? I've never bought LDRs before, what kind of specs should I look for when I'm browsing Rapid or Maplin?
Thanks a lot!
I used these LDR's:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5-x-LDR-Miniature-Light-Dependant-Resistor_W0QQitemZ120048292522QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET?hash=item1bf36f92aa
I buy my 6111 from this guy:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-NOS-Raytheon-6111-submini-Vacuum-Tubes_W0QQitemZ200394265207QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea86dd277
Brilliant - thanks a lot!
frequencycentral - did you get your stompbox enclosure from Maplin? If so, do you have an order code for it?
Thanks!
Quote from: letterbeacon on November 26, 2009, 05:45:39 PM
frequencycentral - did you get your stompbox enclosure from Maplin? If so, do you have an order code for it?
Thanks!
Alloy Box 111 x 60 x 27
N89BQ £3.79 http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?moduleno=43713
.....but I get mine from Rapid: EDDYSTONE CASE 111 X 60 X 27MM (RC)
30-1532 £2.95 http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?&tier1=Tools%2c+Fasteners+%26+Production+Equipment&tier2=Cases&tier3=Metal+Cases&tier4=Eddystone+series+diecast+aluminium+enclosures&moduleno=71713&catref=30-1532&kw=30-1532
Hi Rick!
It's been a while since I've been active here.
But I have seen all your work, and it's great to see so much stuff you've done!
And I have a question about the Vibe.
I'm in a build of one right now.
But there is a lot of loss in the heights ( especially when the led is bright ).
Is this normal?
And keep on doing all that great stuff Rick! ;)
Hi Jimmy, long time no see!
I'd agree there's loss of highs at maximum depth, should be ok around 2 or 3 o'clock though. I was happy enough not to worry about it when the depth is maxed out - it's kind of a different effect. I usually have my depth set at around halfway. This would definately depend on the luminosity of the LED you're using. You could try increasing the 6k8 resistor before the depth pot to suit where you want maximum luminosity to be.
Hi, is it possible to add 5mm LED, which behave in a similar way as the main LED? I would like to put it on the outside, as a status LED.
if you mean as a rate indicator, then, yes you can. look here:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=90809.msg772915#msg772915
this vibe also uses a phase-shift oscillator. you should be able to work it out .......
[edit:] and now I look at frequency central's circuit, I remember he uses a buffer transistor in his osc. I have built, and prefer his setup, and have fiddled a rate led into it, but it is on the other machine, so it will take me a few days.
[edit again:] probably just insert the led between the 10k to positive and the base of the top transistor. can't hurt.
Hello guys, just signed up been lurking for a long time. I'm new at pedal building but have had years of practice as my dad is an electrical technician.
This was my first tube project. If anyone can help out here, maybe rick is out there I've built the vintage vibe a few months ago its one of my all time favs! Only thing is now it seems I've lost 50% of my volume and gain, tube heaters still light up well but I'm guessing one has died. Any thing else I could look at before I dig out the two tubes? Would the ldr cause a loss of volume if one fails, maybe wishful thinking.
These tubes really need sockets of some sort, maybe screw in wire terminals.
Stay well!
Quote from: dileobass on August 19, 2014, 08:27:51 PM
Hello guys, just signed up been lurking for a long time. I'm new at pedal building but have had years of practice as my dad is an electrical technician.
This was my first tube project. If anyone can help out here, maybe rick is out there I've built the vintage vibe a few months ago its one of my all time favs! Only thing is now it seems I've lost 50% of my volume and gain, tube heaters still light up well but I'm guessing one has died. Any thing else I could look at before I dig out the two tubes? Would the ldr cause a loss of volume if one fails, maybe wishful thinking.
These tubes really need sockets of some sort, maybe screw in wire terminals.
Stay well!
I doubt an LDR has died, in any case it wouldn't cause loss of volume. More likely a tube stage, or maybe even a dry joint. It would be worth overflowing all the soldering.
Hey thanks for the reply Rick, love your work BTW
I will have a look at the joints and see where there may be a dry one, i can find, on one tube, the affect from the LED in relation to resistance, however the other tube shows no affect.
Anyway I'll order some more tubes if i can fix it then i have some spares to play with! ;D
All done and swapped a tube over which was reading some high resistance, i took more a guess on it also. Working well again.
when i figure out how to post pics I'll add one in.
Cheers
Sorry I know this is old now but trying to source ldr for this and can't find anything that matches the specs there is any old eBay link but it has expired anyone know where I can get them?