Curious to see what everyones favorite phase build is. I've seen PCBs for the Phase 45, 90, 100 and the Small Stone, but are there any more out there? Ones you like better? Worse? Reasons you like/dislike them? Complexity?
:)
+1 on this. I was just about the post the same question, so I'll just bump.
I'm looking to build a phase next, and I want something with some versatility, but not over the top complex. I want more than a Phase 45, or a phozer, but not something I'm gonna pull my hair out over.
I have a tonepad p90 modded and i'm building a new one with other mods. I like it, with that swirl which is very warm at any settings. I am thinking to build a bad theory mark 2. It sounds great too.
I've built the 45 and the 90. 45 was far too subtle for my taste, 90 is cool. Both are rife with modding opportunitites. I tried to build a small stone but got a little impatient with it. It is now in what I refer to as the "Pile of Failure", i.e., circuits I never got to work and now are just used to salvage parts from.
Anyone else want to chime in on this?
this is the right topic at the right moment...
this morning I decided I'm gonna build a Morley PFA!!!!
after months of tweaking of my ross phaser, I'm just not able to reach that level of control and madness as with the PFA... no chance! there were few flaws in the PFA I think I can fix, some which look quite difficoult, as no layout available, 5 or more trimpots which have to be set by ear/luck and dual/dual supply: 20,0V and +12,0,-12V... and also the problem to find the correct photocells, as the res values shown on the schem don't match with what is sold as "morley replacement photocells"
So, if anybody is interested in this plan, with no certainty and lots of obstacles... please let me know, then we could share the price!
Jfets...gotta mess with picking them out [Jfet matching fixture...many Jfets].
Opto...gotta mess with the right ones etc.
CA3080 or similar...have to find one.
Vibes can be luscious and tasty, Ph90-Jfets are sweet sound, Small Stone could use a mix or depth knob, or to be used on 'one side' of dual-mono, otherwise it's a nice, 'dense' phase tone, seems like it's easily swamped by hotter input signals, the output needs 'balanced' to just enough under unity to be stable and sound like unity, I put a booster there though..
Phase 45 is J-fet sweet, has a really nice 'through the phase tone' tone, even though it has a 'mild' sweep to it, the circuit can be whipped up ['careful' selection from Jfets...whew] with 'Jfets' [required matched pair can work...if you swap enough of them to find the 'two'].
Then there's the ROSS, which Mr. Hammer has dissected, inspected, redirected, and says it has lots of useful control modification and modification possibilities.
Phase 90 all the way!
I built a Phase 90 and love it.
Do it the easy way-
- Get the pcb from Tonepad (saves a lot of headaches)
- Order a bunch of JFETs and set up a simple tester on the breadboard to sort them, all you need are 4 matches
Then just follow the directions... It's a great phaser.
The Ross Phaser (Ropez project at www.tonepad.com) is a good 4-stage phaser that can be modified in lots of interesting and useful ways. Best of all, the LM13600 chips it uses require NO MATCHING or testing.
Well, I've looked over the tonepad ROSS phaser project, and I think i'm gonna go with that! Thanks for all the suggestions, and thanks to the OP for letting me jump on his thread.
If you happen to be in Italy you can have mine...
Did anyone ever tried a Bad stone from EHX?
Are you really that dissatisfied with it Marco? Listening to the sound samples, it sounds like just what I'm looking for. Also the difficulty level is just right. Not to mention the real fun starts when you start to play around and mod the circuit. You can send me your Ross Marco, but only if you take it completely apart first, so I can build it again, that's half the fun!
;) well, I'm not REALLY disappointed, just not happy enough!
it is not bad sounding phaser at all!! and I really like it in univibe mode... with only wet signal passing... that's fun!! but of course we all are not looking for the same kind of effect... and this time I was looking for something more versatile, and extreme if needed...
probably I'm just still in love with the PFA :icon_cry: ... by the way... would it be a problem using 2 tl074 instead of 8 lm741? or is that extra mojo needed?
Hmm sounds like the Ross Phaser is pretty good. I wouldn't mind doing the vibrato mod and the phase filter mods. I also see that there are two values for the univibe mod. Would it be worth while to make all the caps have different switchs? Or just the two univibe caps on one switch, then two separate switches for each phase filter cap? Or all 4 caps on switch?
Also, the extra phase stages looks really cool. I assume they are able to be switchable? So you could go from 4 to 8 stages with a switch, then 8 to 12 with another switch. It's still possible to do this with the vibrato mod right?
Another thing i was thinking, someone mentioned you can't do the extra stages and the filter switch mods... what if you just make sure you are back at four stages (the other board(s) for the stages are switched out)? Then they will work right?
Finally... 16 stage phaser??? would it be worth it?
This is going to be one massive switching/phasing machine :icon_mrgreen:
Thanks to all who responded, i really appreciate your input.
Heemis - it's your thread as much as it is mine :)
1) The Ross/Ropez is so easy and cheap to build that it simply makes no sense to futz around with all the wiring and changes that would need to be made to Uni-Vibe it. Just buy/make another board, stick in the right caps, install a vibrato switch and be done with it. I hasten to remind you that a) Uni-Vibes sound like crap with any regeneration, and b) the range of speeds and sweep widths you'll want for a Uni-Vibe are different than what you'll want for a phaser. So just let the Uni-Vibed Ropez be itself, and let the phaser do what it does best. Yes, it's two boards and two builds, but soooooo many fewer headaches.
2) You can use a 50k pot for the Speed control on the Uni-Vibe version. Nobody can hear any effect with them when the rate gets much slower than maybe one sweep every 2 seconds. Remove the Regen pot, and the pair of 1uf caps and 27k resistors associated with it. You won't need 'em. Run a 47uf cap from the OTA side of the 10k resistor (where the drawing says "LFO") to ground. That will smooth out the sweep as you turn up the speed.
3) There tends to be diminishing returns for more than 12 stages of phase shift unless you use it to process very harmonically rich wide-bandwidth signals, like the sort you might get playing synth pads or phasing a mixed-down track in post-production. Guitars simply don't deliver in that regard, even when fuzzed up.
4) If you do go with more than 4 stages, consider tapping your phase-only signal for vibrato purposes from 2, 4, 6, or 8 stages. The more phase-shift, the bigger the wobble.
Thanks mark.
So, don't bother with the univibe switches. Don't bother with more then 12 stages for guitar. Only use vibrato on 2,4,6,8 stages on phaser. I think I got it. Can this thing do 2 and 6 stages? I thought it was bound to 4,8,12 with the boards?
Also, any comment on the phase filter switching? Is it correct to assume that if you have the two extra boards (for 8 and 12 stages) switched out, the filter switch mods will work as planned? Worth having a seperate switch per cap on those two, or just one switch for both?
Can this thing get the classic Phase 90 Time kind of sound?
Thanks :)
1) The shape of the sweep is different than the P90, so while they are both 4 stages, it won't sound identical.
2) I'm not saying you HAVE to have vibrato after 2, 4, 6, etc. stages. Rather, you may find the vibrato derived from les/more stages more to your liking, so don't assume it HAS to be 4 or nothing.
3) The boards come in groups of 4 stages, but nothing says you have to tap the phase-shifted signal after every 4th stage. Feel free to tap it in the middle too.
4) Just make yourself a 4-stager to start with, and do the phase-filter thing for two stages just to see if you like. I know I talk it up a lot, but you may not like it at all once you hear it.
Start small. See what you like, and expand as necessary.
Quote from: SISKO on March 04, 2009, 05:50:39 PM
Did anyone ever tried a Bad stone from EHX?
I did and I'm surprised that more people haven't done this one. It uses common parts and it sounds good. It's also the only commonly available phaser with a manual option. i built mine into a standard box with the manual pot on the side with a big knob that I could operate with my foot (similar to the big Maestro wedge shaped boxes). Even cooler would be to put it in a old wah or volume pedal.
I built it using a layout I found on line somewhere, but don't ask me where.
Ok..media players got the troubles.
About time to get the 90 out again and see what I can figure out went wrong this time...I've been using the SS w/treadle speed pedal with Jfet boost [wah case], nice pedal, have to fix that Ph90 now though..
Decided to let the quick fix do the trick for now, again...hopefully the added insu-sheet on the bottom [which seems to suddenly allow it to be k nocked about and work uninteruptedly]. Sweet Sweep to it for sure, 'Vibe-90' [somewhere between] capacitor values have always sounded great in this one.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on March 04, 2009, 04:21:03 PM
The Ross Phaser (Ropez project at www.tonepad.com) is a good 4-stage phaser that can be modified in lots of interesting and useful ways. Best of all, the LM13600 chips it uses require NO MATCHING or testing.
Mark, what do the Phase Filter switches do?
You can read more about the original inspiration for it here: http://hammer.ampage.org/files/Device1-6.PDF
By making two stages swept lowpass, what you get is an LFO-modulated autowah with a rolloff just above where the notch produced by the remaining 2 stages is located. When wet and dry are combined, the effect is what Craig Anderton called an "animated" sound rather than an obvious notch sweep. personally, the cool stuff enters for me when the dry is cancelled and you have only the 2-allpass/2-lowpas signal. It produces a fascinating mélange of vibrato (from the 2 allpass alone), autowah (from the 2 lowpass), and tremolo (from the signal loss occurring as a result of a notch and moving treble rolloff). Set just right, it is a really sultry effect. Think the sexiest sweatiest version of Slim Harpo's "Baby, Scratch My Back" that you've ever heard ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tWQ6xITMT8&feature=related ) and that's the sound (though that cowbell kicks ass...). Does really nice things for heavily distorted chords that you hold for a while.
After living with it for a while, I've come to prefer an arrangement where the cap values used for the lowpass/phase-filter stages are slightly lower than those for the allpass stages. Iaresee borrowed one of mine, and in that one I used the standard 3300pf for the allpass stages, and 3000pf for the two lowpass stages. If one was modding a Small Stone, then I guess a combnation of 6800 and 5600pf might be okay. The idea is that what makes a good range for a moving notch (with treble intact) is not necessarily a good range for a moving treble rolloff. A smaller cap value separates the notch and rolloff a bit more, and also keep enough treble to retain note definition. I leave it to others to decide what their ideal spread ought to be, but the general strategy of using slightly lower values for the lowpass stages strikes me as solid and sensible.
If you do the mod, and wish to have it selectable, there are 2 ways to do it. One is to leave the OTA side of the cap in place (at pins 5/7 or 10/12) and use a toggle to move the other end from the input to ground. The other way is to leave the input side, and the ground side, of two sets of caps in place, and use a toggle to connect pins 5/7 or 10/12 to the free end of whichever cap you wish to use. That way you can have all 3300pf for 4 allpass, or 3300pf for the 2 allpass, and 3000 (or 2700pf) for the lowpass. Expect some pop, though.
Note that turning up the regen on a Ropez in phase-filter/wet-only mode gets you an interesting robust auto-wah sound, but cranking the regen on a Small Stone will kill the sound big time. If one owns a DOD FX20, the same mod can also be done...if you can find room for it.
The "univibe mod" sounds intriguing. I tried that with the Phase90 when I had it on the breadboard but it did not sound very good to me. I was not using regen but it just didn't sound very "vibey" to me. Would be fun to try this on another more suitable phase circuit though.
Personally, I think that "Uni-Vibing" anything involves not only the spread of cap values and creation of shallow broad notches (that barely deserve to be called "notches"; they're more like dents), but the suitable location of those dips in the audio spectrum. That, in turn, means not only getting them to start at the "right" point, but also not sweep any higher than a certain point. It also requires complete absence of any regeneration/feedback; feedback on a Uni-Vibe sucksfarts off dead bears...seriously, it's useless, and using more of it diminishes tone. The first part of that you can easily do in a P90, via the bias trimpot used to set the default resistance value of the FETs. The second part is something you need a Sweep Width control to achieve, and a stock P90 does not come with that. The third part is simply a matter of lifting the connection from feedback signal to mixing point. If you still have a 22k, 24k or other resistance looping back from stage 4 to stage 2, then you may find that no amount of meticulousness about cap choice will deliver a pleasing Uni-Vibe sound.
in my opinion the best one is Tonepad's phase 45 with matched transistors........... ;D but that's just my opinion
Quote from: richard the sailor on March 05, 2009, 11:19:10 AM
in my opinion the best one is Tonepad's phase 45 with matched transistors........... ;D but that's just my opinion
No need to retreat or be bashful. Your ears hear what they hear. Every opinion counts.
Thanks for everyones replies, and thanks to mark hammer for answer mine and others questions!
Now it comes down to, for me, the phase 90 or the Ross phaser.
Time for some reflection :P 8)
My understanding is the Ross is somewhat similar to the Small/Bad Stone, from descriptions I've read (maybe it's the use of OTA's?) So if you have an opportunity to compare a phase 90 to a small stone in a music store, that might help you decide.
I'll throw my two pennys in here for Vactrol based phasing - my favourite phaser is the EHX Polyphase, it is a funky phaser.
My favourite one is the phaser that comes with my Musicman (HD212-150) and it's vactrol based i think, and it can be so deep. The nice feature is that there a pull switch so it become a kind of treble EQing boost...I think i'll try to boxed him up apart someday, when i'll have more knowledge! ::)
Anyway here's a link to schem:
http://www.gigabytesrus.com/musicman/schematic.jpg
The phaser section is at the bottom.
There's some sound sample there to: http://www.gigabytesrus.com/musicman/
but they're not really good as it should be.
Oh! I like the mxr p45 pretty much too!
Dan
Quote from: nelson on March 05, 2009, 12:58:52 PM
I'll throw my two pennys in here for Vactrol based phasing - my favourite phaser is the EHX Polyphase, it is a funky phaser.
The polyphase is very cool. I wish it wasn't so big and so expensive. I like the env control function on it the most.
Quote from: DougH on March 05, 2009, 12:19:25 PM
My understanding is the Ross is somewhat similar to the Small/Bad Stone, from descriptions I've read (maybe it's the use of OTA's?) So if you have an opportunity to compare a phase 90 to a small stone in a music store, that might help you decide.
The Ross is very close to the first issue Small Stone in many ways, but actually quite different than the Bad Stone. The Bad Stone used the FETs in a hex invertor chip, and did not employ a "hypertriangular" LFO. That doesn't necessarily make it sound bad, but it
was different.
Vactrol-based phasers sound nice for a bunch of reasons:
1) Vactrols/LDRs contribute negligible noise
2) They don't crumple under hot signals so you can squeeze optimum S/N ratios out of them.
3) There is generally no need to match them.
4) They naturally adjust the LFO waveshape and sweep width as speed is increased.
Dan "The French Connection",
I wonder if the phase section of the Music Man could be pulled from the schematic and be made into a pedal. I would be interested in this.
I am not that good at figuring all that out on my own tho. Maybe someone could help with this.
Peace!
Arn C.
Arn, I think you might be on to something... I've been looking at this schematic, and although my EE knowledge is (very) limited, I think this would be a cool project to try. The phaser section appears to be comprised of 3 dual op amps, 1 for the LFO, and 2 for the phasing stages. The only thing I'm not sure of is the -16v line... Does anyone know any reason why that portion of the schematic couldn't simply be ripped out and plugged into a stompbox format? Mark, I'm looking at you here.
Given that you're looking at me (Are you looking at ME? Cuz I don't see anyone else here. :icon_mrgreen:), I'll respond. No, there is no reason why it couldn't be taken out and used on its own. And the same goes for the MXR Phase 100 which is essentially the same thing except with more stages. There is nothing especially remarkable about the Music Man sub-circuit. It is entirely textbook. That's not a flaw. rather, feel free to cast your gaze in a greatmany other directions (including the Morley LDR-based phaser) for precisely the same thing. personally, I find it hard to tell from the drawing how to implement, or what portions to implement, of the LFO that is shown.
Does anyone know any reason why that portion of the schematic couldn't simply be ripped out and plugged into a stompbox format?
The reverse probably took place, a phase type effect [common to SB's] was plugged into Amp format, I believe the 2nd thing to do would be do it [starting with the PS], the 1rst would be to find where others may have left off with vactrol phase effect in SB's.
Quote from: Arn C. on March 06, 2009, 09:46:12 AM
Dan "The French Connection",
I wonder if the phase section of the Music Man could be pulled from the schematic and be made into a pedal. I would be interested in this.
I am not that good at figuring all that out on my own tho. Maybe someone could help with this.
Peace!
Arn C.
I'll really like to see that but i'm far from being an EE. In fact, i can help on that, except if there's some protein structure to determine by FTIR spectrocopy, fluorescence quenching or structural bioinformatics. Maybe, i could help if it's DNA chips. :icon_rolleyes: Unless then, i'm useless. If Mr. Hammer think it would be hard to implement, i think it's futile to try.
Anyway here's a vid of a musicman phaser sound:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjRzzKzJaZw
Cheers!
Dan
I built a P90 using tonepad pcb and ultra-matched BF245A's. It sounds excelent.
I also have a Univibe clon, a Funky Vibe, http://www.sabbadiusfte.com.ar/ , different from a P90 but a nice phaser.
But I prefer my own LDR/LED phase project,
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=67167.0
mac
Quote from: Mark Hammer on March 05, 2009, 10:56:43 AM
Personally, I think that "Uni-Vibing" anything involves not only the spread of cap values and creation of shallow broad notches (that barely deserve to be called "notches"; they're more like dents), but the suitable location of those dips in the audio spectrum. That, in turn, means not only getting them to start at the "right" point, but also not sweep any higher than a certain point. It also requires complete absence of any regeneration/feedback; feedback on a Uni-Vibe sucksfarts off dead bears...seriously, it's useless, and using more of it diminishes tone. The first part of that you can easily do in a P90, via the bias trimpot used to set the default resistance value of the FETs. The second part is something you need a Sweep Width control to achieve, and a stock P90 does not come with that. The third part is simply a matter of lifting the connection from feedback signal to mixing point. If you still have a 22k, 24k or other resistance looping back from stage 4 to stage 2, then you may find that no amount of meticulousness about cap choice will deliver a pleasing Uni-Vibe sound.
I have an easyvibe PCB so I think I'll just build that. It just seems, "easier"... :icon_mrgreen:
Sorry... :icon_wink:
Quote from: Mark Hammer on March 05, 2009, 03:37:15 PM
The Ross is very close to the first issue Small Stone in many ways, but actually quite different than the Bad Stone. The Bad Stone used the FETs in a hex invertor chip, and did not employ a "hypertriangular" LFO. That doesn't necessarily make it sound bad, but it was different.
I had a Bad Stone back in the 70's. It was just okay, and I eventually got rid of it. I prefer both the MXR 90 and 100 to that. The first phase shifter I played with was a Small Stone though. A friend of mine borrowed one from someone, around '73-'74 timeframe. I remember liking it real well.
Your project sounds great mac! I'm definitely intrigued. So many options... I've never worked on an LDR based project before so I think I might give this a try.
Quote from: DougH on March 06, 2009, 11:58:41 AM
I have an easyvibe PCB so I think I'll just build that. It just seems, "easier"... :icon_mrgreen:
Sorry... :icon_wink:
Nothing to apologize for, Doug. Easy is what I was looking for. Etching 2 Ropez boards and making one a dedicated vibe is "easier" than running all the wiring and making room for it and all the needed switches. But if you have an Easy-Vibe board already, well that's probably even easier.
No, I was apologizing for the bad pun... :icon_mrgreen:
I keep a GGG mistress flanger and now a neovibe on my board, so I prefer the phase 45 for when I want a more subtle modulation effect that does not overpower the tone at all. I think it has a very nice unique sound.
I really like and would recommend the Badstone build. The phase shifting is much more of a modern sound (even though it is a 70's era pedal) than is with the phase 90, 100 or even the Ross (my runner-up choice). It is definitely not subtle. The phase shift is loud and clear even on a clean guitar. I built one for someone who preferred Boss PH-2 and PH-3 sounds and it did not disappoint. It seems more transparent than the latter day Boss pedals as an added bonus. Nothing against the venerable Phase 90, it's really cool for what it does as a more vintage sounding unit.
I've been really curious about the Maestro Stage Phaser as another deep phase shifter. The sound samples of that unit on mode zero are pretty amazing.