Did anyone mod the two 0.22uF capacitors to Tantalum???
(before i have to tear my wah appart??? :icon_mrgreen:)
it seems, noone tried it before..
i guess someone would.
(PS: tomorrow i will have to test it myself....)
Why should anybody do that? Tantalums are the worst caps you can use... I know that some well known pedal modders use them, but it doesn´t make any sense. Tantalums are small and cheap (that´s why big companies use them) and they have nice colors (that´s why pedal modders use them for their far too expensive mods).
Use a good film cap instead, could be polypropylene or polyester. I used panasonic stacked metal film, but any film cap will work good there, it´s just a matter of taste.
Quote from: roseblood11 on July 10, 2009, 03:35:31 PM
... it´s just a matter of taste.
and my taste and my ear tells me that Tantalum caps sound good on Tubescreamers and even in some Distorition Pedals (RAT).... so i just like how they sound in some pedals.....
My taste tells me also that Modded TS with only Poly Caps (and no Tants) sounds a little sterile (with no Character)....
like you said: " it's just a matter of taste"....
lol go for it.
Then ask us what to swap them out for when they crap out in a couple years.
Film caps are what you want.
The only difference you'll hear if you change out for tantalum will either be a result of a change in capacitance up to the % of tolerance OR what you're brain fools you into hearing.
Quote from: jacobyjd on July 10, 2009, 04:30:57 PM
... OR what you're brain fools you into hearing.
I hope my brain is not fooling with me :icon_mrgreen: , but i really hear the difference between Poly and Tants in a TS or a RAT...
with Tants notes are sharp, with more presence.... poly makes a little unclearer compared to Tants. Some Friends sayed that maybe tants have a little to much presence in the pedals I modded.
I tend to avoid Tants in Coupling positions and use them as RC filtes only sometimes, but on some distortions they made the distorsion clearer more defined.
what is the tolerance on the ones you used in distortions?
additionally, I'd love to see some scope readings of a before/after tantalum cap swap in your rat and/or TS.
low? :icon_mrgreen: ( i really don't know) but i only use the one that have an exact match to the ones I change to make a real objective Test with to different materials into One DPDT switch.
in some parts of the TS the Tants cuts the HF and make the upper mids clearer compared to Poly or Electros NP. But on other parts Tants make it sound Dull (like replacing the final 10uF of the TS with tant)
so now I'll just have to test them in my REGISTERED BLIND TEST MATERIAL :icon_mrgreen: into the WAH.
If the caps are low-tolerance, the difference in sound you're hearing has nothing to do with the difference in material. It's got everything to do with the difference in tolerance.
If you want to mod your wah for some subtle changes, you're better off changing the value of the filter cap slightly.
Quote from: jacobyjd on July 10, 2009, 04:55:55 PM
If the caps are low-tolerance, the difference in sound you're hearing has nothing to do with the difference in material. It's got everything to do with the difference in tolerance.
but I measure them with a Digital Tester to pick exact matches.... :icon_idea:
why dont you mod your wah and tell us how it sounds? Im diyng to hear it!
Quote from: SISKO on July 10, 2009, 05:55:11 PM
why dont you mod your wah and tell us how it sounds? Im diyng to hear it!
me too!
richon, I told you what you get by changing them, it was my idea, I did it and I shared the results with you.
No mention for me here???
I did it and I get a cleaner tone, more transparent. I like it.
Just try it.
> but I measure them with a Digital Tester to pick exact matches....
Richon, in that one statement you probably do more than most people do here. Trust your ears and if it works for you, then great!
seems to me in the real world there is "good sounding" equipment built with "bad sounding caps" such as tantalums, ceramic, or whatever so I'd take any recommendations, pronouncements, etc. with a grain of salt.
Hi,
the material really makes a difference! The "problem" with tantalums is, that they produce distortion, because of their high dielectric absorption (ten times more than the worst electrolytic cap...). Nobody would use them in a hifi-audio circuit. But if you like that sound - why not? It´s a matter of taste... And a good Wah isn´t supposed to sound perfectly clean.
Another example: Sometimes I use ceramic caps instead of silver micas for tone filtering, just because they add a little grit...
http://www.muzique.com/cap_faq.htm (http://www.muzique.com/cap_faq.htm)
a good article in german :
http://www.gitarrenelektronik.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=102&Itemid=93 (http://www.gitarrenelektronik.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=102&Itemid=93)
probably there are lots of people listening to hi-fi stereos listening to recordings in which the signal traveled through tantalum caps (shock horror...). Personally I don't buy this (if someone is arguing that this is some sort of absolute that tantalums sound unacceptably bad). It doesn't seem like people typically pick out "the unacceptably poor sound" on some recording that has gone through tantalum caps. Am I saying that no one will ever hear "poor sound caused by the use of tantalum caps"? No, but things don't seem so black and white to me in the sense that "tantalums are bad", "alu electros are bad" so "you should never pass the audio through them" or whatever. Distortion, for example, is it bad absolutely? I would think that most inhabitants here would say, "no, it depends".
(What's up with AMZ BTW?
http://www.muzique.com/news/ceramic-capacitors-for-guitar-pedals/
I thought Jack used to argue you couldn't hear the differences between different types of caps!? Didn't he have some audio comparison/test thing previously to prove that you could not tell? :icon_lol:)
Quote from: Dai H. on July 11, 2009, 02:36:43 PMIt doesn't seem like people typically pick out "the unacceptably poor sound" on some recording that has gone through tantalum caps.
Are you referring to Neve consoles? Afaik Tant. caps are used as audio coupling caps in Neve's gaincards.
Quote from: Dai H. on July 11, 2009, 12:54:01 AM
seems to me in the real world there is "good sounding" equipment built with "bad sounding caps" such as tantalums, ceramic, or whatever so I'd take any recommendations, pronouncements, etc. with a grain of salt.
One of the best sounding tube amps I have uses ceramic coupling caps. In the DIY tube amp community, people would probably tell me that they absolutely would have to go. But I think the amp sounds great as is, and I wouldn't change a thing.
In a wah pedal, I think you could use any 0.22uF cap with the same tolerances as the original and they would all sound fine. Except for maybe noise levels might be affected slightly.
In fact, I bet that 98% of people listening to a wah pedal in a blind pedal test would not be able to discern between one type of cap and another, and I would even go far as to say that they might even like something like a dreaded ceramic cap the best in that sort of a test.
I still maintain that our preconceived notions about something very often sways what we think is the best sounding. That and all the hype you see on the net about this cap vs. that cap.
yes! That is one of the things I discovered. IME, sometimes the "better" cap (film or whatever) does sound better, but in some cases the "worse" (class 2 ceramic or whatever) sounds "better" (to my ear, taste, the situation, etc.) so it does seem being a little too rigid might get in the way of getting the sound that works best, pleases, etc.
Quote from: Dai H. on July 11, 2009, 06:03:39 PM
yes! That is one of the things I discovered. IME, sometimes the "better" cap (film or whatever) does sound better, but in some cases the "worse" (class 2 ceramic or whatever) sounds "better" (to my ear, taste, the situation, etc.) so it does seem being a little too rigid might get in the way of getting the sound that works best, pleases, etc.
Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. Actually, I think the non-linearity of ceramic caps can oftentimes have pleasing results. If I use ceramic caps in the signal path, I'll use the 1kV types, though because they are more linear in their frequency response.
Very good reads
http://uk.geocities.com/cyrilb2@btinternet.com/
http://greygum.net/sbench/sbench101/
http://greygum.net/sbench/sbench102/caps.html
http://greygum.net/sbench/sbench102/caps2.html
Caps it all depend where in a circuit they are. Voltage difference across the plates, vibration, do you want the non linear or the linear? ESR (Ratt feedback cap ESR matter here because of the 47 ohm and the Aluminum has more ESR than a Tant)
You can sometimes hear a change but it depends when I hear a change I measure and try to make sense of it.
Quote from: Gus on July 11, 2009, 06:18:04 PM
Caps it all depend where in a circuit they are. Voltage difference across the plates, vibration, do you want the non linear or the linear? ESR (Ratt feedback cap ESR matter here because of the 47 ohm and the Aluminum has more ESR than a Tant)
You can sometimes hear a change but it depends when I hear a change I measure and try to make sense of it.
True. In my '74 Fender Twin Reverb, I changed out the original "chocolate drop" coupling caps with Sprague Orange Drops, and the amp did seem to sound a little clearer and better afterwards. But those caps have 350 or so volts on them and are dealing with higher amplitudes, too.
In stompboxes operating on 9V, I'm not so sure about being able to
clearly hear the differences in caps. Or carbon comp resistors vs. other types for that matter. I know, there are some exceptions, there always is. The point about ESR is a good one.
well...
finally, after a lot of mods: here it is the video to compare changind both 0.22uF polyester caps to Tantalum and vice versa...
post your coments
Quote from: Paul Marossy on July 11, 2009, 06:06:48 PM
Quote from: Dai H. on July 11, 2009, 06:03:39 PM
yes! That is one of the things I discovered. IME, sometimes the "better" cap (film or whatever) does sound better, but in some cases the "worse" (class 2 ceramic or whatever) sounds "better" (to my ear, taste, the situation, etc.) so it does seem being a little too rigid might get in the way of getting the sound that works best, pleases, etc.
Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. Actually, I think the non-linearity of ceramic caps can oftentimes have pleasing results. If I use ceramic caps in the signal path, I'll use the 1kV types, though because they are more linear in their frequency response.
:icon_redface: sorry for the confusion! I meant to reply to "bool" but didn't "quote" as I should have. However I
do agree in that cheap ceramics can sometimes give the better result. FWIW I have some larger value 47nF class 1 ceramics (supposed to be "better" in the conventional sense compared to class 2 with less distortion, less piezoelectric behavior) and swapping them for cheaper class 2s, I've found the sound can be worse. There seems to be some sort of smearing/distortion thing that in certain cases works better (but conversely they do seem to sound bad too at times--harsh, distorted, ugly). Also, (although there
may be some advantage in some situation with sound) fwiw there doesn't seem to be any advantage in size and cost (unless you happen to find some surplus) as you go bigger with the class 1. (I looked up bigger value class 1 in an old Mouser catalog, and although available, they were not particularly cheap--well, more kinda expensive really.) The film 47nF I have can be much smaller. Smaller values are easier to find and the modern multi-layer construction does appear to help reduce physical size.
Quote from: richon on July 16, 2009, 12:47:09 AM
well...
finally, after a lot of mods: here it is the video to compare changind both 0.22uF polyester caps to Tantalum and vice versa...
post your coments
here is the video: sorry ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NdtADvGswg
Quote from: richon on July 17, 2009, 12:42:52 AM
Quote from: richon on July 16, 2009, 12:47:09 AM
well...
finally, after a lot of mods: here it is the video to compare changind both 0.22uF polyester caps to Tantalum and vice versa...
post your coments
here is the video: sorry ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NdtADvGswg
Toe down with the Tantalum seemed to have more treble, and maybe an edge of distortion/drive. It's hard to tell with those videos though.
As for which I preferred, no preference really. I think if it's a useful mod for you then great. Every tone can find a happy home!
Quote from: tiges_ tendres on July 17, 2009, 01:21:49 AM
I think if it's a useful mod for you then great. Every tone can find a happy home!
That's the bottom line with any kind of mod that can be made to any pedal. It's a personal preference thing.
Quote from: Dai H. on July 16, 2009, 11:47:54 PM
:icon_redface: sorry for the confusion! I meant to reply to "bool" but didn't "quote" as I should have. However I do agree in that cheap ceramics can sometimes give the better result. FWIW I have some larger value 47nF class 1 ceramics (supposed to be "better" in the conventional sense compared to class 2 with less distortion, less piezoelectric behavior) and swapping them for cheaper class 2s, I've found the sound can be worse. There seems to be some sort of smearing/distortion thing that in certain cases works better (but conversely they do seem to sound bad too at times--harsh, distorted, ugly). Also, (although there may be some advantage in some situation with sound) fwiw there doesn't seem to be any advantage in size and cost (unless you happen to find some surplus) as you go bigger with the class 1. (I looked up bigger value class 1 in an old Mouser catalog, and although available, they were not particularly cheap--well, more kinda expensive really.) The film 47nF I have can be much smaller. Smaller values are easier to find and the modern multi-layer construction does appear to help reduce physical size.
The only point I was trying to make is that people have preconceived notions that certain types of components sound bad, and that is just not the case in my experience. But, it does depend on the circuit and where in the circuit they might be.