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DIY Stompboxes => Building your own stompbox => Topic started by: Brymus on December 24, 2009, 09:58:02 PM

Title: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on December 24, 2009, 09:58:02 PM
Ok this last week I have watched "It might get loud" (the new BR movie release)(rented) Oh about 5 times....Yeah its late  :icon_redface:
The 5th time with commentary on. Really cool must see for gear junkies. :icon_rolleyes:
ANYwho  In the Page interview in his equipment room,Page talks about meeting Mayer and asking for "more sustain"
And the camera pans to the pedal on top of his amp which looks to be an original Tonebender MKII professional.
So I had the impression that ,that was the original pedal Mayer-modified-built.
But after researching more (and finding really old posts by RG,Gus and Aron at ampage) along with the info at the D*A*M web page.
I dont think that is possible,more likely it was a Hornsby Zonk or MKI ?
I want to build one as close to what Page used as possible (not likely) since the Ge choices are much fewer and scarecer,my knowledge ,ect.
Maybe SmallBear has some IDK..

What is the current consensus on obtaining the early Zep tone? pedal wise ?
And could you please link to the schematic/version  you are refering too?

Since the first two Zep albums were recorded in 69 that should eliminate alot of the copies and revised versions of the Tonebender name.

BUT I am interested in a Si version if someone knows of one that is fairly close in tone.
Searching here I have uncovered RDVs,Dragonfly's versions but the sound clips I heard were far from what I was expecting.

OT Does anyone know what those two identical amps Page was using at "the Summit" were?
The ones sitting on the cabinet with 100 in the top left corner.
And did anyone notice he brought a Hiwatt and an Orange with a Marshall cab? but no Marshall head.

Really cool movie IMO, I am a MUCH MUCH bigger Jack White fan than I was before,and I know how Bo Diddly got his name.
Of Course U2 is my generation,stood in line for hours to get "The Joshua Tree" the first day it was released but "War" is still my Fav.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Guitar_Ninja on December 24, 2009, 11:03:32 PM
I believe it was a Sola Sounds Tone Bender MKII. He also used a telecaster on Led Zeppelin I, and I think that's a key part of the sound of that album.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Quackzed on December 25, 2009, 01:16:01 AM
and a rather common supro amp...
and his distant mic'ing techniques. distance equals depth!
 


Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on December 25, 2009, 06:15:31 AM
Alright some more digging and I think the Sola Sound MKII Pro is correct - modified by Mayer for more output and mids.
http://guitarplayer.wordpress.com/2007/09/21/led-zeppelin-the-complete-jimmy-page-gear-guide/
Although this site claims a Tele from Jeff Beck was his first "real" guitar and Page said in the movie his mom bought him the 57 tobaco burst prior to the Yardbyrds and it was his first "real" guitar and the one he had wanted for awhile.
So it's hard to know for sure...

OK then It looks like I want to get as close to the Sola Sound Tonebender MKII version as possible and voice it heavey with mids and add some boost.

Any suggestions? Hints ? Links ? Advice ? I know a bunch of you have built Tonebenders....
Here is a good reason/example for building VS buying a pedal.
I started the Si version from Dragonflys layout of the RDV modified version on my breadboard but Santa is coming so it will have to wait.
I plan to hunt some Ge transistors down and do a more authentic version too but it will be Si for now.

I think the "amps" I was wondering about were actually the Cornish modified echoplex units.
And it wouldnt suprise me if his 59 Danaelectro was responsible for some of the recordings that people attribute to the tele...

More detailed questions about building a "Page" Tonebender will come as I progress.
I also read somewhere that Mayer has re-issued a replica of the Tonbender he made for Page anyone know about that?

You probably guessed by now I have been a big Zep fan since puberty.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on December 25, 2009, 11:13:08 AM
Somebody asked Roger Mayer and it turned out he didn't modify any Tone Bender for Page. Gary Hurst on the other hand built these for Sola Sound.

A bog standard MKII circuit will do, maybe leave away the cap on the far left, as the earliest units didn't have it:

(http://forum.musikding.de/cpg/albums/userpics/16602/ToneBenderMKIIOC75.png)
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on December 26, 2009, 06:58:08 PM
Thanx EW nice layout.
Do you remember where you heard/read that quote from Mayer?
Supposedly the info from "it might get loud" was verified before release,as it was meant to be a documentory about the guitar.
Hard to imagine Page would say that if it werent true,but who knows?
Hopefully I can finish breadboarding the Si version tonight.

FWIW I was messing with the 3legged dog last week which morphed on my breadboard into a sort of 3LD/HH variant.
and it does the Physical Graffiti tone quite well,just add a little flange or chorus and wow - Kashmire,The Rover
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Joe Hart on December 26, 2009, 08:00:11 PM
Bryan, what kind of gear are you using to cop the Jimmy Page sound? Guitar? Amp? Etc...?
-Joe Hart
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on December 26, 2009, 09:41:55 PM
Thanx EW nice layout.
Do you remember where you heard/read that quote from Mayer?

Yes, it was the "Page Fuzz"-thread over at the D*A*M forum. Weired thread... The Mayer email must have been the only useful info it contained  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on December 27, 2009, 12:20:31 AM
Hey Joe
Uhm I started with a really cheap Gibson/Baldwin LP and a completely tweaked Valve Jr.But my older Jackson Elite does it much better with the same amp.It actually sounds more like an LP than the liscenced version.
The PUs may be too hot though my bridge is 16k8 and the neck 8k7 Duncan HBs .

EW OK thanx I will look over at D*A*M again I missed that e-mail the first time.
That guy has some amazing old pedal photos over there too BTW.
But another site claimed Mayer just/is going to release a Page/Tonebender which doesnt sound likely if he never made him one.
Family came over so didnt get a chanec to finish the Si Bender hopefully mayana.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on December 27, 2009, 12:55:28 AM
Well, what would you do after getting that kind of publicity?  ;D
Mayer used to sell a Page Fuzz wich was based on a Maestro Fuzz Tone, but had several modern additions..
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Joe Hart on December 27, 2009, 11:44:46 AM
Bryan, for what it's worth impedance has little to do with how hot a pickup is. I'm no expert, but my understanding is that all else being equal, more impedance means more output. But different magnets (strength as well as type), different wire gauge, etc., now throws the impedance = output thing out the window. You may already know that, but I thought I would mention it. Also, I think the "classic" Jimmy Page tone is a Telecaster through a Tone Bender into a little Supro amp. And a TON of "extraneous" knob twiddling (different recording techniques, EQ-ing, layering, and whatever other "majick" he wove!).
-Joe Hart
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on December 27, 2009, 12:16:18 PM
You might wanna throw in a grey Vox wah as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T12wRBAhcTY
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on December 28, 2009, 05:05:25 PM
Hey Joe IDK that about PUs I thought the impedence was directly related to output,I tried my Strat clone its a little closer to tele sound than the Jackson.Sounded closer too.

EW dont have a wah cant afford one right now maybe later.

I got both SI vesions breadboarded and the RDV version worked straight away with the posted values but didnt bias to 4.5- 3.9 was the best I could get without changing components.
Same with Dragonflys verson I had a hard time with it,It oscillates at max attack with the 10uf cap so I went with the 4u7.
Both definetly have that "RUDE" tone Page was talking about.
In fact they both sounded really close to his pedal he was playing in his gear room,so the tone IS there just needs a little tweaking.
I found Dragonflys to be darker and more "splatty" using the posted values.

I swapped the 5k6 on Q3 for a 10k pot and presto I was able to dial in a much smoother sound,and get the 4.5 bias that is recomended.
I will try to get some more done today time permiting.

Hey Joe I was trying to refind the schems I used and found your thread here
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=71849.0
This is almost the exact voltages I was getting,and I am using the same schematic from RDV too.
So more reading and twiddling...
Here are the two versions I am working on if I need to remove them from my PB page just let me know IDK how to make them show up otherwise
(http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp276/Bry928/Pedals%20and%20effects/FuzzFaces/SIbenderRDV.jpg)
(http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp276/Bry928/Pedals%20and%20effects/FuzzFaces/TONEBENDER_NPN_SILICON_DRAGONFLY_VE.gif)
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on December 28, 2009, 05:15:15 PM
You might wanna throw in a grey Vox wah as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T12wRBAhcTY
WOW what an awsome vid should be called "how to use a bow 101"
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on December 28, 2009, 05:20:06 PM

I swapped the 5k6 on Q3 for a 10k pot and presto I was able to dial in a much smoother sound,and get the 4.5 bias that is recomended.
I will try to get some more done today time permiting.


Actually 7.5 to 9.1 volts bias is recommended.
http://stompboxes.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3229&hilit=room+temperature&start=10
don't know if it works for the silicon version as well.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on December 28, 2009, 07:27:33 PM
Using the tips from Gus and Mac http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=71849.0
I am getting one of the best sounding FF type tones of all the Si versions I have tried.
Albiet its starting to sound more modern but still really nice tones in there.
More to come.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on December 29, 2009, 01:03:19 AM
I think I have it as close as I can get without some different transistors.
I used RDVs schematic.
After lots of part swapping...I
Used Gus' advice and changed and the 47k on Q2s C to 10k,and changed the feedback resistor on Q1 to 1m from 470k.
Used Macs advice and bypassed the 2k7 resistor on Q1s E with a 1uf cap (major sustain).
I replaced the 5k6 resistor on Q3s C with a 5k pot,I'm going to call this one fuzz.
This gives me usable tones through most of the sweep,the best ones from 4.5V - 7V .
I will try to get some sound clips and post the voltages tommorow :)
All in all I think it sounds really close to what Page was getting in his gear room with his MKII pro.

FWIW  I found using 2 old 9V batts in series (15.5V) yeilded a really cool fuzz lots of gain and the Fuzz knob wouldnt get "splatty"
when turned down.

Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: sean k on December 29, 2009, 03:16:29 AM
I gotta bunch of Mullard OC81's if your interested and I can spare three. What hfe's you want for a tonebender. I did one a few years ago and sold it as it seemed to be a pretty bog standard warmish distortion...not even fuzzy, just kinda almost tubey. 
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: mac on December 29, 2009, 08:28:13 AM
Quote
Used Macs advice and bypassed the 2k7 resistor on Q1s E with a 1uf cap (major sustain).

The sound of q1 and the sustain... mmhh gain of the pedal change a lot when you set bias from 6.5v to 8.5v. You could hear the difference by taking the output from q1.
 
When I experimented with Ge transistors I noticed that even with some leaky ones, say 200-300uA, q1 bias had a 7.5v floor.
I do not have data on the OC75s used on TBs but I bet they were not that leaky, ie higher collector voltage. ThatŽs why I suggest using a 1M to 1M2 feedback resistor depending on hfe, and no emiter resistor at q1 (or 100 ohm for high gain Si).
I built mine with a Ge biased at 8.2v and it has a big amount of gain, I have to set fuzz pot close to min and reduce guitar volume to get Page tones. Or use my 3 knob TB :).

BTW, iirc Page never talked much about his gear. So probably he used a strat, a tube screamer and a Bassman 59 :)

mac
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: jrod on December 29, 2009, 10:07:32 AM
Hey Electric Warrior...Thanks for the layout and bias info. In your experience, what hfe's do you like?

I built a MKII with OC75s and did not like it too much. I ended using some Japanese 2sb175s. The OC75s were slightly gated no matter how well they were biased. Hfe for OC75s are around 75 - 85 - 120.

Like Mac said, I am not getting a Page type tone unless I turn down the gain knob and roll back the guitar volume a bit. I'm playing a strat, Valco amp, and TBMKII.

Brymus, if you build the Si version you posted by Dragonfly, let us know how it turns out. I am very curious about those!

Anyhoo, I've got to see this documentary. Thanks for info!
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on December 29, 2009, 10:21:53 AM
No gating problems here. I believe the hfes are around 70, 70, 90.
Got ten OC75s and swapped them around until I found a combination that I liked :)
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: jrod on December 29, 2009, 10:24:03 AM
No gating problems here. I believe the hfes are around 70, 70, 90.

Thanks...I'll check my bias again!
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: liquids on December 29, 2009, 10:56:39 AM
and a rather common supro amp...
and his distant mic'ing techniques. distance equals depth!

Time affects all memories, so take this with that in mind...

I remember an article from well over a decade ago, when I was a teenager, a time  when I read the guitar magazines I collected nearly every day, over and over.  There was little music in my house growing up.  I had little to no idea who Zeppelin or Page were at the time, actually, I only knew from the magazines that stairway was a famous rock song, which I'd probably never even heard at the time (!)...however I read an article with Page saying that a lot of his recorded tones were, similarly, about 'good micing technique.'  Sometimes it was the sound of two mics on the same amp, for example.  My impression was that he was mostly against mixer board EQing of the guitar tone all together.   He was very enthusiastic about micing the amp from the rear, saying outside of some phase reversal, if needed, mic positioning was the best EQ.   I remember it vividly, because it made a strong impression on me, and seemed very creative to me at the time even if it's now old hat.   I've used that advise as a springboard for my own tastes and findings.

I watched the dvd this weekend.   I was startled at how 'atonal' that fuzz sound pedal he used was, when he was talking about getting a fuzz pedal (whatever it was), and how it sounded on it's own playing some of those riffs, compared to a clean sound.  

Likewise, I think he takes the award for most ridiculous 'guitar faces'!   ;D
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on December 29, 2009, 11:16:27 AM
 My impression was that he was mostly against mixer board EQing of the guitar tone all together.   He was very enthusiastic about micing the amp from the rear, saying outside of some phase reversal, if needed, mic positioning was the best EQ.   I remember it vividly, because it made a strong impression on me, and seemed very creative to me at the time even if it's now old hat.   I've used that advise as a springboard for my own tastes and findings.

It's an excellent advice. I wouldn't call it creative, though. It's just good audio engineering.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: bigchasbroon on December 29, 2009, 01:26:36 PM

I also read somewhere that Mayer has re-issued a replica of the Tonbender he made for Page anyone know about that?

You probably guessed by now I have been a big Zep fan since puberty.
dunno about a mayer TB but theres just been a Gary Hurst mk1 reissue seems abit pricey, ive got a magazine article somewhere where it tells you the Ge trannies that are in it ill try dig it out.
http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/guitars/round-up-8-great-fuzz-pedals-225950/4 (http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/guitars/round-up-8-great-fuzz-pedals-225950/4)

Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on December 29, 2009, 01:52:14 PM
One OC75 and two 2G381.
And here's the Mayer pedal: http://....org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17&hilit=page+1+roger+mayer
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Quackzed on December 29, 2009, 03:46:36 PM
clips, clips...
doot-da-do-da-do...
sha-boom-sha-boom boom. :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on December 30, 2009, 10:40:08 PM
OK here are some Voltage readings ,remember I changed a couple of resistors (read the previous posts)as well as bypassing the 2k7 with a 1uf cap.
BATTERY 9.3v > 100R > 9.0v
Q1 2n3904   C 8.39v                    Q2 2n2222  C 2.26v           Q3 2n5088  C 4.52v
                    B   .73v                                      B .69v                              B 2.26v
                    E 0                                            E 70.2mv                          E 1.65v

Sound Clips - These were recorded with a Hamer Durango (American Standard Strat clone) PU sw in second position (bridge+middle)
                    into the TBMKII > into my modded (complete rebuild all new components with Hammond OT)(not my high gain EVJ)
                    Valve Jr with the 12" Lady Luck  > MXL 990 large diaphram condensor mic >Tascam US144 > Reaper DAW
                    For fairness no EQ ,FX,or compression just the dry tracks. The mic was 12" out dead center.

The amp's volume was at 9 o'clock, The TB volume at 30% Attack just a hair from max and the Fuzz set to 4.5v
The sustain switch was off for the Zep clip, In the sustain switch demo I just turned it on and off several times.
 (please excuse my sloppy playing) TonebenderMK_II  =WholeLotta Love/Rover      
                                                       TB_MK_II =SustainSwitch Demo                   http://vibecat.com/brymusfx

So how do my Voltages look ?
Swapping the 47K for a 10k (per Gus) raised the V on Q2's base.
Swapping the Q1 feedback resistor from 470k to 1M (per Gus and Mac) raised the V on the collector
And adding the 1uf cap on a switch to bypass the 2k7 on Q1s emiter (per Mac) didnt affect the voltages but what a differance in sustain!

I didnt record the Fuzz knob turned up ,it raises the voltage on Q3s collector and really increases the volume as it smooths out the fuzz.
Could be useful when more boost is needed.

I am open to any critisism,tips I think its pretty close now. I am real happy with it ,this one is gonna make it off the breadboard for sure !!!,

Is there any way to upload sound clips here? I hate linking all the time.
Thanks again for all the help.-Joe Hart ,EW ,Dragonfly
Especially To RDV,Mac, and Gus or this pedal wouldnt sound half as good as it does now.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: mac on December 31, 2009, 10:54:09 AM
Quote
Is there any way to upload sound clips here? I hate linking all the time.
Thanks again for all the help.-Joe Hart ,EW ,Dragonfly
Especially To RDV,Mac, and Gus or this pedal wouldnt sound half as good as it does now.

De nada!
To upload clips and schematics here you need a place in the gallery, ask Aron or Andrew.

mac
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on December 31, 2009, 01:13:29 PM
Again thanks for the help Mac
Is there anything else I can do to get it closer to the Zep tone ? IMO the bass could be a little tighter I tried swapping caps to no avail.
How do the voltages look ?

What did you guys think of the sound clips ?

To answer a question from earlier in the thread RDVs and Dragonfly's versions sound about the same with the values in the schematics.
Dragonfly's has a little less high end from the 22n between Q2 and Q3 and the tone control is a high cut type,which cuts the volume as you cut the high end.
Also the 10uf cap on the attack makes it oscillate at max attack.
For ME or IMO I wouldnt use the tone control it would be at max all the time,and I liked the tone better w/o the 22n cap,YMMV

One thing that suprised me is how quiet this pedal is,no hiss.I totaly recomend it for a good fuzz build.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on December 31, 2009, 05:10:18 PM
Eureka !!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
I only tried swapping the coupling caps. :icon_redface:
Just to see what would happen I started swapping the "attack" cap... :icon_rolleyes:
Changing the 4u7 "attack" cap to a 2u2 was the answer even a 1uf sounds tight but I like the 2u2 best. :icon_mrgreen:
I will put them on a switch, this pedal has become super versatile now.I freakin LOVE it.
I wont be able to record any clips today hopefully tommorow, I will demonstrate the difference,but its a really simple circuit to try on your breadboard.
I am gonna gut my current FF and box it in that,its that good IMO

I am guessing since no -one is commenting on the soundclips, everyone is just being polite and not saying anything...
Which is odd as the few people who have heard live were in awe at how close it is to my target sound.
Maybe they were just being polite too. :icon_redface:
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on December 31, 2009, 06:21:13 PM
I think it sounds very trebly and buzzy. the germanium version is a fair bit thicker and smoother sounding.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Tony Forestiere on December 31, 2009, 06:42:07 PM
Quote
I think it sounds very trebly and buzzy.
I tend to agree, but we don't know if the recording method has a play in the sound. I would like to wait for the new clips changing the "attack" caps.  :icon_wink:
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on December 31, 2009, 08:06:50 PM
Quote
I think it sounds very trebly and buzzy.
I tend to agree, but we don't know if the recording method has a play in the sound. I would like to wait for the new clips changing the "attack" caps.  :icon_wink:
1)Thanks I assumed Ge would be smoother,Dragonfl's is less trebly. I assume all Si Fuzz types to be a bit "buzzy"
which is why I asked for help with this to get a more Ge type sound.
2)Recording...partly my EVJ is set up for my Jackson's HBs    my Hamer's single coils are pretty bright in comparision.
Through my Crate its dark W/O turning up the treble on the amp.
3) the attack cap mod makes it even more trebly  :-\
of course this is just IMO which is why I asked for feedback.
4) I agree to some extent with both comments,thanx

 any one else care to comment ?

You can say it sounds like poo in your opinion because....of X and Y and I wont be offended, I rather value the opinoins here.

Now if you were to say "it sounds like ran over dog crap and you suck"  that would be different altogether
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: liquids on December 31, 2009, 10:06:07 PM
1)Thanks I assumed Ge would be smoother,Dragonfl's is less trebly. I assume all Si Fuzz types to be a bit "buzzy"
which is why I asked for help with this to get a more Ge type sound.


Many options that come to mind....here are three
1) - what value pulldown resistor are you using, if any?  If you have one, try making it a 100k pot instead, on the breadboard.  If not, add one and try it.  this will lowering the input impedance, which will will load the pickups and make it a darker and less 'direct' sounding.  Part of that ge fuzz sound is poor input impedance characteristics.  Few if any silicon transistors have such poor input impedances as the GEs, but this can sort of simulate that effect.      If you do this,  It will have nicer cleanup with the volume knob...but you will loose some apparent gain, as well, from 100k down...try that.

2) Put a small value cap across one, two, or all the collector resistors...this will reduce some high end, though it isn't very controllable beyond picking different values.  And trying all the options could drive you mad, but it should smooth the high end and sound less buzzy.

3) Add a low pass tone control...believe it or not, something active might be what your after, even...

Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Quackzed on January 01, 2010, 04:12:01 PM
it definately has that loose yet edgy vibe to it. very pagey though it does sound  a tad harsh, that pull down/ impedence idea is good and it sounds like you have gain to spare on that build. i'd try it and don't dismiss it as 'dulling ' till you can step away and evaluate it with fresh ears.

Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on January 01, 2010, 06:35:52 PM
1)Thanks I assumed Ge would be smoother,Dragonfl's is less trebly. I assume all Si Fuzz types to be a bit "buzzy"
which is why I asked for help with this to get a more Ge type sound.


Many options that come to mind....here are three
1) - what value pulldown resistor are you using, if any?  If you have one, try making it a 100k pot instead, on the breadboard.  If not, add one and try it.  this will lowering the input impedance, which will will load the pickups and make it a darker and less 'direct' sounding.  Part of that ge fuzz sound is poor input impedance characteristics.  Few if any silicon transistors have such poor input impedances as the GEs, but this can sort of simulate that effect.      If you do this,  It will have nicer cleanup with the volume knob...but you will loose some apparent gain, as well, from 100k down...try that.

2) Put a small value cap across one, two, or all the collector resistors...this will reduce some high end, though it isn't very controllable beyond picking different values.  And trying all the options could drive you mad, but it should smooth the high end and sound less buzzy.

3) Add a low pass tone control...believe it or not, something active might be what your after, even...


Thanx,
1)I have a 1meg pull  down resistor as per both schematics,I will try that - I like the way it works in my Omega.
2) whats the difference between that and what Dragonfly did by putting it between the two collectors  Q2>Q3 ?
3) Again would you recommend something different from the one Dragonfly did ?

Quackezd  thanx  :icon_cool: :icon_cool:
Excellent advice,I forget that most times,and your right once I am used to the way something sounds the immediate result of a change sounds different then when I approach it fresh,as hearing it for the first time with out a referance sound still fresh in my head.

I now have some stuff to try out,thanx and please any other thoughts are more than welcome.

From the feedback I am getting now I can see why Dragonfly modded his the way he did. Very Educational indeed !
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Quackzed on January 01, 2010, 09:06:30 PM
i had built one a while back, using rdv's schematic for npn silicon trannies and really dug it. but after letting a fellow zep fan 'borrow it' indefinately  :D. and not having the heart to separate him from it, i think it's time i built another.
if you try any of the tweaks  mentioned i'd love to hear your opinion. i think i'll socket the transistors and try that fuzz cap change you mentioned, see if it tightens it up a bit.
as well as an impedence trimmer.
 :icon_cool:


Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on January 02, 2010, 03:53:45 AM
Quackezd
The impedance trimmer didn't seem to do much tone wise until it was bleeding a significant amount of signal to ground.
Which could be better done set up as a divider than a resistor.
The cap across the collector only smoothed it when applied to Q2,it actually seemed to have the opposite effect when applied to Q3s collector  :icon_eek:.
Adding a 22n across Q2's collector and upping the 22n between Q2 and Q3 per dragonfly's build to 47n indeed tamed most the high end and made the pedal more "wooly" and a fair bit smoother but still "buzzy" underneath IMO .
IDK if there is a way to get the buzzy sound out of a Si tonebender.
Still its a great pedal,one just cant expect it to sound like a Ge build I guess.

Have you breadboarded it yet what did you find,hear?
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: GibsonGM on January 02, 2010, 08:48:18 AM
Brymus, I enjoyed your clips! Esp. the tone in "The Rover".  I can see this as a nice fuzz build for getting some of the 'vibe' of the early 70's as opposed to late 60's; going to try one myself.   I saw the movie last night, came upstairs and figured out Kashmir after not having tried for 20 years (I'm 38...), lol.  10 mins. later and it's on my set list (just had to see Jimmy doing the descending riff, ha ha).  It was GREAT to see those guys flubbing up, raw sound w/o engineering and all.  Very inspirational!

I think if it was used with a Marshall and large cab, you'd find it to have a bit fuller tone!  With some more tweaking I believe the Si 'buzz' might be able to be mitigated some more. Will have to play around with that.
Then again, there's always going back to the Ge model if one desires!!

~Mike
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on January 02, 2010, 08:52:33 AM

I think if it was used with a Marshall and large cab, you'd find it to have a bit fuller tone!  With some more tweaking I believe the Si 'buzz' might be able to be mitigated some more. Will have to play around with that.
Then again, there's always going back to the Ge model if one desires!!


My Ge mkII sounds way thicker with a 1x12" combo.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: GibsonGM on January 02, 2010, 10:29:55 PM
It sounds thicker than a 4x12?

Anyway, I liked the bias pot idea...but generally, I am getting tones out of this similar to early Sabbath/Iron Butterfly.  I have to agree that the Ge trannies are the way to go if you are looking for Zep I sounds!    A really nice, big, fat fuzz, tho!  Pretty cool, it rivals one I custom-modded a couple of years back.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on January 02, 2010, 10:46:09 PM
It sounds thicker than a 4x12?

Anyway, I liked the bias pot idea...but generally, I am getting tones out of this similar to early Sabbath/Iron Butterfly.  I have to agree that the Ge trannies are the way to go if you are looking for Zep I sounds!    A really nice, big, fat fuzz, tho!  Pretty cool, it rivals one I custom-modded a couple of years back.
How did you wire it ? per RDVs schematic with a bias pot ?
I just finished trying some more
I actually had to listen to Zep to make sure I was steering towards "that" tone as there are so many great sounds in this pedal.
But I changed Q1 feedback resistor to 1m
Made the 47k on Q2 a 10k,5K bias pot all three of those changes remained.
Today I :
Made the "attack" cap 3.3 uf up from 2.2 or down from 4.7 I tried alot of values here.
Added the 22n between Q2 and Q3 per Dragonfly's build,this knocks down the high end from single coils and my EVJ
Then raised the bias to 7v and used more palm muting in the right places.(this looses alot of the buzzy sound)
This got really,really close to the sound on Zep II but looses some sustain,switching in a 1uf across Q1s collector fixes that but makes it sharper and more modern sounding.

If you havent already try these changes the 1m ,10k,5k bias pot,22n cap,3.3uf cap and also you have to try the 1uf cap across Q1s collector it is so fun to play like that.Especially with a slide (in my time of dying)
The big problem now is deciding if I want to make it the Zep pedal or make it so I can get some of the fatter tones as well, they all sound sweet IMO
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on January 02, 2010, 10:48:58 PM
It sounds thicker than a 4x12?

no, thicker than his clips  ;D


I'm not quite sure how much use the MKII got on Zep I. Probably less than most would think. That Supro combo Page used has very fuzzy overdrive.
This is probably not the right model, but comes very close: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1qN4GixSxg&feature=related
The live video of Dazed and Confused I posted earlier is a much better reference of what an MKII is supposed to sound like.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: GibsonGM on January 03, 2010, 05:49:10 PM
LOL, just wondering about the context, El.War., ha ha.
I'll play around with those changes, Brymus - seems like quite a tweek-able circuit, I like that!
Didn't have any time today to mess around, lots of snow here in the northeast and I had to shovel my roof...aaahhhhhggggg!   It would be cool to kind of get near Page's tone, I grew up on Zep (why I started playing guitar!) and have never been able to get very much in the zone, even with a Les Paul!   But the notes remain the same :o)
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on January 03, 2010, 09:48:52 PM
I just went at it with fresh ears and I got the same result > tweaking the bias (fuzz) pot by ear I landed at 7v (7.1 actually)
With the other changes being the same,this is the closest I can get it to the original MK II tone on ZepII.
Which when listening to the CD there isnt that much distortion really... his low E sounds pretty clean to me. better palm muting helps clean it up.
SO unless someone comes up with something else I am gonna box mine as is.
One thing to consider is raising the 22n bewteen Q2 and Q3 to 33n or 47n the higher the value the less trebly it is.

I would really like to hear your results Mike.
and anyone elses who have built this pedal (the Si version)
Hopefully I can build a Ge version too in the next couple of months then compare, I only expect the Ge version to be a little smoother.
I will post my version along with more clips in the next couple of days.

Thanks for all the help and feedback guys !!!!!!
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on January 12, 2010, 01:29:02 AM
Well it took more than a couple of days,but here is how I boxed mine up.
Its my first time using the DYLC (old version) This is how I perfed mine straight off the schematic.
So I got stuck with the filter cap having a jumper to ground  :icon_redface:
I will try to upload some clips and pics soon.(my camera is broke)and I havent had time to record it again.
Take a look at it and let me know what you think,It sounded sharper and brighter once it was perfed - hence the 47n VS a 22n between Q2 and Q3.
I used a 5K "fuzz" pot but I will probably change it for a 10K to allow for some serious "splatty" sounds as well.
I will post some voltages tomorow as well.
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Brymus/Si+Tonbender+MKII+Pro+Zep+Version.gif.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: stratcat on January 12, 2010, 02:30:06 PM
What transistors did you use? If you want a smooth Ge fuzz sound using Si trannies you need to go LOW GAIN ala the axis face.

http://fuzzcentral.ssguitar.com/axisface.php

Anything over 150 hfe  is going to be a silicon buzzsaw (which may be what you want).

Try 2369, 2n2222, BD139 etc.

I've been meaning to build a switchable all SI axis face/MKII which would be the ultimate retro fuzz box.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on January 12, 2010, 07:51:05 PM
I tried several including the 2n2222 in the end I used the ones listed on the layout.
I would appreciate some feedback on the layout ,it works as is (mine is a little more compact) but I'm sure it could be better.
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=41893&g2_serialNumber=1)
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on January 13, 2010, 11:21:23 PM
OK here is the Porn and a couple of sound clips.
The recording technique is exactly the same as earlier,same amp,guitar,ect.
First a shot of my perf job
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=41903&g2_)
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=41907&g2_)
The Rayco enclosure -I love these cheapo boxes.
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=41905&g2_serialNumber=1)

Voltages - Battery > 9.5 v      -Q1- (c)8.58 (b) .745 (e) 0      -Q2- (c)1.8 (b) .7 (e) 75mv     -Q3- (c) 4.5 (b) 1.8 (e) 1.24
And some sound clips -
The first one is my take on that "Zep" tone with the bias set at 7 volts and the "attack" rolled back a little bit,also the "sustain" switch is turned off in this clip.
I listened and played along with the CD and IMO it is pretty freakin close,especially for an Si version.
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Brymus/

The second one is the same BUT with the bias set at 4.5 volts and the attack at full,and the sustain switch turned on.
Listen to how long it sustains at the end.

I marked where the dial is at both 4.5 v and at 7 v on the enclosure so I can set it to both w/o a DMM .
This pedal can go from the "classic" fuzz sound all the way to some seriously mean "metal" type fuzz sounds.
I hope all this documentation will help the next people to try thier hand at building an Si TonebenderMKII Pro

Further more here are the main threads I culled my info from to do my mods-Mac's posts were the real jewels that made this possible.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=71849.0
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=67136.0
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=67136.0
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: GibsonGM on January 16, 2010, 07:30:02 PM
Hey, totally awesome, Bryan!!  I like #1's midrange emphasis (if you could call it that), and #2's 'midscoop'.  They both are really close, I agree, esp. for Si.  Second clip, if the fuzz was turned back, reminds me a lot of the closing note of Dazed & Confused :o) Just enough grit remains to make the sustained note grungy.

I'm going to perf this up soon and see if I can get my LP with Hot Rod Deluxe amp to sound a little more Zeppelinesque! Generally I use a Guv'nor or TS.
Do you also have a schematic you can post? I don't speak perf all that well, lol. 
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Quackzed on January 16, 2010, 11:30:09 PM
that sounds sweet.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: mac on January 17, 2010, 11:59:45 AM
Nice sounds!
(Why my builds can not look like yours???)

Quote
Further more here are the main threads I culled my info from to do my mods-Mac's posts were the real jewels that made this possible.

Gracias!

mac
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on January 17, 2010, 06:04:43 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys !!!
The sound clips really dont do this pedal justice at all,try it for yourself and see.
GM - The layout I posted IS the schematic.But I will draw a regular one when I have time.

And Mac Thank You - :icon_mrgreen:  With out your posts,sharing info,and help I would have shelved it and been disapointed.
And a compliment from you on my work is like winning a trophy !!! or something,I could only hope to be as skilled at this as you  :icon_redface:
I found your schematic for the MKIII when I was searching for a layout to compare mine to,I will try that one as well.
Again thanks for sharing your work and info.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: svstee on January 18, 2010, 01:40:19 PM
Just built this and I have a bit of a problem. Used both the Perf and schematic and checked for continuity wherever it should be. No sound at all.

Do you have voltages handy?
Mine are:

Q1
C 8.34
B 0.70
E 0.12

Q2
C 2.00
B 0.74
E 0.07

Q3
C 6.13
B 2.00
E 1.40

Do these look OK? Seem alright to me based on the little I understand about this circuit...
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on January 18, 2010, 04:30:17 PM
I posted my voltages 4 posts up (the one with the pics in it)
Yours look OK except for Q1's E which should be 0 volts.
Even when playing I still have 0 volts there.
Maybe you have a small short between the base and emitter there ?

To start with leave the sustain switch off (cap across Q1s emitter) ,and bias Q3's collector to 4.5V.
This should be the standard sound.
Turning the "fuzz" pot adjusts the bias of Q3 I marked where 4.5 and 7 volts were on the dial on mine.(these were the two best sounds)
I dont understand the circuit per say,just how and what affects the sound of it (changing values,bias,transistors, ect)
Try comparing the values I used to the ones in RDV's and Dragonfly's (posted earlier in thread)
If its to dark sounding lower C1 (off my layout) from 47n to 33n,22n,or 10n.

Let me know what happens  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: svstee on January 18, 2010, 04:50:16 PM
Turns out it helps the tone if you DON'T wire then In to the Out and vice versa...  :icon_redface:

Holy excrement, this is the best fuzz I've ever built! Some great tones in here and a massive amount of versatility. Knocks my DAM Meathead, Sili-face, and Jordan Bosstone clean out of the water. Thanks for sharing all your insights and the layout!
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on January 25, 2010, 01:23:22 PM
Turned out the Tone Bender in It Might Get Loud is a 90's reissue: http://stompboxes.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=373&start=470  ;D
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: azrael on February 04, 2010, 04:20:07 PM
I'm liking the clips I hear. I just built a Tonebender MK II using Germaniums, and it didn't turn out so well.

I've also built Doug Hammond's Hot Silicon, and it sounded pretty cool, but not quite what I was looking for.

I may give this a swing later this week, though.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: mac on February 04, 2010, 09:57:54 PM
The problem with Ge is leakage. Get the right leakage and youŽll get a nice pedal, otherwise...
Q1 needs a moderate leakage to sit at around 8v. If too leaky then collector will drop too much and more siganl will hit the FF section which is not good IMHO.
How much leakage? 100uA or so.
Q2 has to be low leakage, below 50uA because a tiny amount of leakage across the 100k sends Q1 collector too close to gnd, making almost impossible to bias Q3.
We say all the time that Q3 needs to be at 4.5v, and never mention where Q2 must sit. I'd say that with a 100k, 0.3v - 0.4v is the sweet spot. In a FF this small gap is 0.4 - 0.6v.
Besides,  low leakage means less variations with temperature.
Q3 can be leaky.

mac
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: azrael on February 07, 2010, 02:11:41 AM
I may have missed it, but what kind of transistor gains should I look for in the 2N3904s and the 5088 for optimal performance? I found some 2N2222's that are lower gain than the 3904s, and I'm wondering if I should use them....
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on February 07, 2010, 10:54:05 PM
You should use sockets and try different ones,I tried the 2n2222 they sounded good too.
I tried several different kinds the 2n2222 being the lowest gain ones I have on hand.
You might like something else.
In the clips I posted I used  Q1,Q2> 2n3904 and Q3 2n5088
Look at Macś posts he recommends several different low gain types, that I will be trying when I get the chance.
Since I socketed almost everything...
I also got some Ge PNPs to try in another build of the TBMKII Pro so I can compare the two.
I have been working a BMP on my breadboard and I actually like my Si TBMKII better sound wise.
The BMP has more sustain and takes a booster pedal in front of it better though.
The TBMKII Pro Si  just has a better overall fuzz sound IMO.
Bryan
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: seedseed on May 09, 2010, 11:36:45 PM
I can not get q3 collector voltage to bias i have checked the circuit for correctness 1 thousand times i swear but q3 will only read 8.6 volts i can't get it down to 4.5 or 7 even with a pot or resistors. i have a 10k resistor coming from the collector of q2 do i need to change this to a 47k possibly. It has got me totally stuffed unless i need to change my transistors. Iam using 2 2n2396a and for the first two stages and a bd139 for q3 not sure what else i can change to make it work i don't really understand this leakage problem on the 100k resistor. any ideas thanks
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: joelindsey on May 10, 2010, 10:22:36 AM
You could always just get yourself one of these...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4026/4519614042_654e9d3da0.jpg)


Shameless bragging, I know. But it nails the Zep tone!
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Quackzed on May 10, 2010, 04:16:08 PM
 ;D cheeky! ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9X31x2SHzw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9X31x2SHzw)
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on May 11, 2010, 12:08:54 AM
I can not get q3 collector voltage to bias i have checked the circuit for correctness 1 thousand times i swear but q3 will only read 8.6 volts i can't get it down to 4.5 or 7 even with a pot or resistors. i have a 10k resistor coming from the collector of q2 do i need to change this to a 47k possibly. It has got me totally stuffed unless i need to change my transistors. Iam using 2 2n2396a and for the first two stages and a bd139 for q3 not sure what else i can change to make it work i don't really understand this leakage problem on the 100k resistor. any ideas thanks
With 9v battery and a 5K pot on the collector of Q3 I can get anywhere from 2.4V up to 7.7V ( I just checked again )
IDK about your transitors and I am not going to look up their data sheets thats your job.
I do know several people have built this using my schematic and common small signal NPNs and all of them reported they liked it alot.
If you post the voltages for all 3 transistors I will try to help you as best I can.
Bryan
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: mac on May 11, 2010, 09:39:40 AM
Quote
The BMP has more sustain and takes a booster pedal in front of it better though

The BMP has more input impedance than the TB. The input resistor of the BMP avoid boosters from saturating the input.
A 10k to 47k at the input might help, without sacrificing gain... TB has lots of it.

mac
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on May 11, 2010, 04:48:22 PM
Hey Mac have you tried putting a buffer on the front of the TB ?
BTW I am going to eventually make and post a transfer for this, just havent got to it yet.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: mac on May 11, 2010, 10:30:54 PM
Quote
Hey Mac have you tried putting a buffer on the front of the TB

Nop.

mac
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: seedseed on May 14, 2010, 05:59:54 AM
I fixed my problem YAY :icon_mrgreen: i checked everything in my build one billion times (little bit of an exageration) but when you have a fault in your unit this is how it goes what it ended up being was the pot that i had joined on for the gain the 1k on the earth lead on it the flux from the solder had managed to make it a high resistance joint. It wasn't until i fired it up and did some probing that i noticed the voltage drop when i connected a wire between the q3 emitter and ground! Low and behold the voltage dropped. I then checked the pot and found it to be 3meg resistance and then thought bingo there you are you little sucker. The thing is that to look at everything the solder's looked fine and you would think well must be a component or have i done something wrong on the board. But after all it ended up being the damn flux the unit now functions beautifully the only issue i found is that when the sustain switch is on it seems to feedback and sort of take of to much on me is that the same problem anyone else is getting when they give there amp a bit kick of juice. is there anyway the sustain can be kept and tame it back a bit? Thanks for your help bryan
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on May 14, 2010, 01:46:27 PM
If I understand your question about the sustain switch right.
You could take R4 and split it into two different values in series and tie the cap at the point they meet.
Just like a fuzz/gain pot on a FF , (this would be degenerative emitter feedback (if I understand what I ve learned of late)
You could also try using a pot and connecting the cap to the middle wiper.
You can also try lowering the value of the cap (make it smaller) so only the higher frequencies are boosted more than the lower.
Glad you figuered it out  :icon_cool:
Post some pics and sound clips here in this thread when its done.
Bryan
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: keto on May 15, 2010, 02:50:16 PM
Wondering what I did wrong on the sustain switch, possibly wrong switch?  On-On SPDT wired as you show it, outside leg to 1uF, outside leg to ground, mid leg empty.  Now, I did use an electrolytic there, pointed ground to ground and + to R4, so it could be a polarity issue as well.

Otherwise, it functions just as it should and sounds great.  Used 3904's and a 5088 just like you drew it up.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on May 15, 2010, 04:09:04 PM
Yes it sounds like you wired the switch wrong.
Try checking it with a continuity checker ,
I think (cant know with out having the switch to check )
That you want to use the middle and one outside lug.
So the (-) end of cap to the middle lug,and the outside lug to ground (either one should work),The (+) end of the cap would connect at the emitter R4 junction.

Something you could do with that switch is wire the emitter to the middle lug then have two different value caps each with the (+) terminal tied to an outside lug and the (-) terminals tied to ground.
I would try a 1uf or higher and a .47 or lower value.
This would give you two different kinds of boost.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: keto on May 15, 2010, 09:20:13 PM
Thank you, you got it exactly right on the switch, just had to move 1 wire 1 lug over.  All I can say is  :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: awesome.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: keto on May 24, 2010, 12:04:12 AM
clamfest, compressed youtube sound and camera mic, but I think it gets the idea across  :icon_lol:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gABsgZ_vLx0&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gABsgZ_vLx0&feature=player_embedded)
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Brymus on August 12, 2010, 05:20:52 PM
I was lucky enough to get sent a few gold pin 2n2369 transistors from a VERY nice forum member  :icon_mrgreen:
They arrived in the mail today.
Five minutes later...
I put a 67 Hfe in Q1 and a 69 Hfe in Q2 and left the 2n5088 in Q3.
With the sustain/phat switch off this pedal is FN AWESOME !!!!   Less gain = smoother distortion
It is perfect now for the early Zep tones ,that I have been practicing lately.
I love this pedal even more than before !!!


This is yet another verification of what Mac said early on in this thread,you want LOW gain Q1 and Q2 for the most authentic TB MKII sound from Si transisters.
If any of you can get some of the low gain trannies Mac recomends (read earlier in this thread for his picks),please try em out.
You wont be dissapointed.

Major Thanks !!!! to the forum member who sent me these ,you are a prince among men.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: mac on August 13, 2010, 05:09:54 PM
Brymus,
I bet you have some leaky unused germs, try one at q3. Temperature is not going to be a problem and you could germanize the thing a little more.

mac
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Renegadrian on May 12, 2014, 06:06:34 PM
I made this layout here. I ended up using 470k at q1 and 10k at q2. 3904 give too much gain I believe and sounds like sh.t!
Got some pn2369, low hfe, they work much better. q3 is not that important but I'd put a 2369 there too...

(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=51025&g2_serialNumber=2)
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Arcane Analog on May 14, 2014, 07:54:17 PM
The problem with Ge is leakage. Get the right leakage and youŽll get a nice pedal, otherwise...
Q1 needs a moderate leakage to sit at around 8v. If too leaky then collector will drop too much and more siganl will hit the FF section which is not good IMHO.
How much leakage? 100uA or so.
Q2 has to be low leakage, below 50uA because a tiny amount of leakage across the 100k sends Q1 collector too close to gnd, making almost impossible to bias Q3.
We say all the time that Q3 needs to be at 4.5v, and never mention where Q2 must sit. I'd say that with a 100k, 0.3v - 0.4v is the sweet spot. In a FF this small gap is 0.4 - 0.6v.
Besides,  low leakage means less variations with temperature.
Q3 can be leaky.

mac

In my experience, low leakage is not preferable in Q2 and Q3 is certainly not looking to be 4.5V. You want 8+ volts at Q3.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: blackcorvo on May 14, 2014, 09:46:11 PM
Anyone ever tried MPSA42's for these fuzz effects? They have pretty low Hfe and are really common out there.
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: mac on May 15, 2014, 06:50:32 AM
Quote
Anyone ever tried MPSA42's for these fuzz effects? They have pretty low Hfe and are really common out there.

I'm using them when I need low gain or high voltage. They are cheap and hfe is in the 100-150 range.

Quote
In my experience, low leakage is not preferable in Q2 and Q3 is certainly not looking to be 4.5V. You want 8+ volts at Q3.

If you want 8v at Q3, I guess +100ua can do it.
Salt and pepper to taste! :)

mac
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Electric Warrior on May 15, 2014, 09:02:19 AM
You can go way beyond 300”A without any issues. In fact I can't make my clone sound anything like my vintage unit with low leakage transistors.

Here's some voltages I measured in the vintage unit:

Battery: -9.67V

Q1 C -9.02 B -0.03 E 0
Q2 C -0.17 B -0.08 E 0
Q3 C -8.44 B -0.17 E -0.11
Title: Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
Post by: Arcane Analog on May 15, 2014, 11:36:08 PM

Quote
In my experience, low leakage is not preferable in Q2 and Q3 is certainly not looking to be 4.5V. You want 8+ volts at Q3.

If you want 8v at Q3, I guess +100ua can do it.
Salt and pepper to taste! :)

mac

If you want it to sound like a MKII you want 8V+ at Q3. The 4.5V at Q3 in the MKII circuit is not correct - unless all of the original units had it wrong.