I want to take things to the next level. What will it take?
Rainbow ribbon cable? Mounting the PCB to the backplate? Help me make my offboard wiring sexy!
These put a tingle in my dingle:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/RussBert/TrifectaGuts003.jpg)
(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m447/thorpy6/klopp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v48/allreet/04.jpg)
those 90-degree bends and 3" lengths of parallel wire give me the heebie-jeebies.
Rainbow ribbon cable, solid core grounding, pot board......
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0002-28.jpg)
Are the heebee jeebees good or bad in this case?
Frequency Central this thread is your fault damn it. I read your thread on transparencies for graphics, and it got me thinking...
Your pedal guts are ART... that ribbon cable is haunting my dreams.
Where do you get that stuff?
And aren't you worried the exposed ground wires might move and short something out down the road?
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n121/knealebrown/IMG_0407.jpg)
im still a noob but with my first dirt box i went all out and used PCBs for the jacks, solid core wire (bent with needle nose pliers) and hellerman sleeving.
TBH its just good planning and measurement that i think are the most important things. also take your time and enjoy it, take pride in your guts, even though nobody will see them......except us.
Ribbon cable: http://www.spiratronics.com/rainbow-ribbon-cable-9397-0.html
Quote from: benallison on April 07, 2010, 03:33:55 PM
And aren't you worried the exposed ground wires might move and short something out down the road?
That ground wire isn't going anywhere, the sockets are screwed down real tight, the wire is so taut that it's tuned to Eb.
I thought parallel wires were bad... what's it called... capacitive inductance? Clearly I do not understand that term well :icon_mrgreen: , but man those pictures make me want to re-do my builds.
25 years ago I used rainbow ribbon cable. These days I wouldn't touch it with a 10-ft pole. Why? Because if one conductor fractures, it is a major job to repair.
I have this picture of a Harry Joyce Hiwatt up next to my bench. I think it is just about the prettiest thing ever, and use if for inspiration. (Thanks to MHUSS for the picture!)
(http://mhuss.com/Hiwatt/images/DR504_guts.jpg)
Cable Lacing (http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/cable-lacing-howto/l)
Probably a bit much for a stomp box, but one of my hobbies of late has been reading NASA build standards documents.
Gabriel
Quote from: benallison on April 07, 2010, 03:32:34 PM
Are the heebee jeebees good or bad in this case?
Bad. The parallel wires, mainly because of crosstalk and noise (not really an issue if it's not a high-gain distortion or something); and the 90-degree plier bends because they're unnecessary stress.
Probably won't cause any problems in a stompbox, but it's bad practice for bigger toys.
It's just careful planning on the builders part, and practice. John Lyons does some unreal gut work too. A guy at another forum with the screen name Farndurk is also one of my favourite builders. Not to mention guys like Solderman or Freq Central who do unbelievable work.
I find using solid core wire is the best for getting your wires to stay put. Using a drill to wind wire together will get a nice tight spiral.
Make sure your circuit works before putting it in the enclosure
Carefully make sure all your guts are mounted firmly in the enclosure. All parts should be easily accessible, but firmly mounted.
Begin to measure out and cut wire (solid core, ribbon, whatever you use). Make sure you cut a small amount more than you need.
I begin with my switch, making the connections to each successive part.
Sometimes it's best working 'up', so if you pots are the 'lowest' in the upside down enclosure, start with those connections to the board, then the board to the switch, then the board to power, then the LED to power and switch, then the switch to jacks.
As you're working with the solid core, make sure it's straight, and only bend it once. Bending it once, and unbending, and then bending and unbending will not lead to those nice 90 degree turns you're hoping for.
Also, trim off the excess as you work. Rather than trying to cut a piece of wire the perfect length, make it slightly too long then remove the excess. Using small tools will help you get in there. Use pliers to make bends, not your fingers, use angle cutters and wire strippers instead of a razor. Again, solid core wire will stay much nicer in those bends.
Plan, plan, plan! Patience, patience, patience. I'm still not good at it, but whenever I plan it out I get a nicer result. My problem is I often get a super nice gut job on my pedal going, then I rush to get it done and make shortcuts. Even worse, I rarely take my own advice and check that the circuit works fine until AFTER it's already put together. Troubleshooting and debugging make my nice builds into sheer messes.
Jacob
Are parallel wires really that big a deal in pedals?
Surely the sheer beauty improves the toan?
Quote from: benallison on April 07, 2010, 04:29:55 PM
Are parallel wires really that big a deal in pedals?
Surely the sheer beauty improves the toan?
Poor lead dress can be a problem if it's something like a high-gain distortion or something with an LFO in it. Usually it's not an issue, but why chance it?
I'm less a fan of solid core wire. Generally we don't necessarily use what the big guys do as an example for our work here, but you'll notice there aren't any widely available, large-scale production pedals that use solid core wire. Why? It's more prone to failure than stranded of the same gauge. At least that's always been my understanding. Which is a bummer because it's so damn easy to work with, especially when you need to desolder it
Quote from: jacobyjd on April 07, 2010, 04:44:33 PM
Quote from: benallison on April 07, 2010, 04:29:55 PM
Are parallel wires really that big a deal in pedals?
Surely the sheer beauty improves the toan?
Poor lead dress can be a problem if it's something like a high-gain distortion or something with an LFO in it. Usually it's not an issue, but why chance it?
"Spaghetti Don't Oscillate"
Quote from: jacobyjd on April 07, 2010, 04:44:33 PMbut why chance it?
Because of the sexiness.
Sometimes sex requires risk!
Uh, there's something wrong with you if you find wires to be sexy. :icon_wink:
Quote from: benallison on April 07, 2010, 04:54:59 PM
Quote from: jacobyjd on April 07, 2010, 04:44:33 PMbut why chance it?
Because of the sexiness.
Sometimes sex requires risk!
I'll remain disease and oscillation-free, thanks :icon_cool:
lulz
Quote from: MikeH on April 07, 2010, 04:47:10 PM
I'm less a fan of solid core wire. Generally we don't necessarily use what the big guys do as an example for our work here, but you'll notice there aren't any widely available, large-scale production pedals that use solid core wire. Why? It's more prone to failure than stranded of the same gauge. At least that's always been my understanding. Which is a bummer because it's so damn easy to work with, especially when you need to desolder it
I'm completely with you there. I do not like solid core wire because it just isn't as reliable. I do, however, use Teflon insulated wire, which gives you much of the stiffness without the reliability issues, and you don't have to worry about melting it with your soldering iron, which is a plus!
Also, if you are going to bend wires with a pliers, you really should be using a round nosed pliers, such as THESE (http://www.amazon.com/Excelta-Round-Nose-Plier-Smooth/dp/B00012YT04). Make the bends as big as you can so you are spreading the stress over as large an area as possible. I have a great pair of pliers that I stole from my dad (who has no use for them anymore) that have one round jaw and one flat jaw, which work better than any of my duel round nose pliers. Sadly, i8t was made in the sixties, and I can't find them anywhere anymore.
And having my first amp build be incredibly sloppy, I can attest to the fact that spaghetti does, in fact, oscillate!
Gabriel
Quote from: Paul Marossy on April 07, 2010, 04:56:00 PM
Uh, there's something wrong with you if you find wires to be sexy. :icon_wink:
Wires Like an Egyptian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjI4p8_NZVc&NR=1)
easy when there are hardly any wires
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joegagan/buick%20trim/ff/234-3447_IMG.jpg)
maybe im not looking hard enough, but whered ya get the terminal strip?
i got those term strips at a surplus place here.
Quote from: frank_p on April 07, 2010, 11:25:01 PM
Quote from: Paul Marossy on April 07, 2010, 04:56:00 PM
Uh, there's something wrong with you if you find wires to be sexy. :icon_wink:
Wires Like an Egyptian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjI4p8_NZVc&NR=1)
Uh... there's no wires in that video, unless you are in a roundabout way referring to somewhat wirey looking women. :icon_lol:
Good lead dress has nothing to do with "purtyness".
Parallel wires: bad- vulnerable to crosstalk.
Input/Output wires colocated: bad- vulnerable to oscillation.
90 degree wire bends: waste of wire. Keep wires as short as possible.
And long wires that can get tangled up with a battery and broken during a battery install are never a good idea.
Quote from: DougH on April 08, 2010, 10:03:37 AM
Good lead dress has nothing to do with "purtyness".
Parallel wires: bad- vulnerable to crosstalk.
Input/Output wires colocated: bad- vulnerable to oscillation.
90 degree wire bends: waste of wire. Keep wires as short as possible.
And long wires that can get tangled up with a battery and broken during a battery install are never a good idea.
I've only been joking around so far in this thread, but I totally agree with you. On another forum I belong to, this guy had a similar looking pedal to one that is shown here with all the wires running parallel as if they were a ribbon cable with perfect right angles and all that. But he couldn't figure out why he had a problem with oscillation. He had input and output wires in close proximity to eachother along with a gain control and other wires. We set him straight. I wonder if he learned something and changed his ways or if he's still doing his pretty wiring anyway. :icon_rolleyes:
And for any of us that have built a tube amp, we know what Doug says above to be especially true. If you can make it look pretty and have it be efficient without a bunch wires being bundled together and running parallel for long distances, great. But if not, reliabilty and predictable, non-chaotic behavior is far more important to me than a pretty wiring job. What good is a pretty wiring job that no one can see when the chassis is inside the cabinet when you can't turn any of the controls up past three because it becomes a humming, howling, squealing mess?
I'll take an opportunity to brag a little and tell you I think these are all reasonable wiring jobs:
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=37240&g2_serialNumber=2 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=37240&g2_serialNumber=2)
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=16564&g2_serialNumber=2 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=16564&g2_serialNumber=2)
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=22767&g2_serialNumber=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=22767&g2_serialNumber=1)
None of them will win an internet booteek beauty contest, but they follow the principles of good lead dress.
Yeah, that amp chassis looks nice. Reasonably neat wiring and well thought out with no wires running parallel in close proximity to eachother and wires as short as practically possible. And where wires cross, they are at right angles to eachother. Exactly how a tube amp should be wired.
Is that one of your builds, Doug?
Yes, all three photos are things that I built.
Quote from: DougH on April 08, 2010, 11:32:21 AM
Yes, all three photos are things that I built.
I thought so.
Quote from: jacobyjd on April 07, 2010, 04:09:08 PM
Quote from: benallison on April 07, 2010, 03:32:34 PM
Are the heebee jeebees good or bad in this case?
Bad. The parallel wires, mainly because of crosstalk and noise (not really an issue if it's not a high-gain distortion or something); and the 90-degree plier bends because they're unnecessary stress.
Probably won't cause any problems in a stompbox, but it's bad practice for bigger toys.
Good for the eye Bad for the bone (sound)
Mainly because solid core wire will brake easier and parallel cables will transmitt noise in hi gain pedals.
But as art, extraordinary ;D
If you want to use multistrand wire that stays put- try teflon. Kind of overdone for pedals IMO, but I use it in amps and like it a lot.
Quote from: DougH on April 08, 2010, 10:03:37 AM
Input/Output wires colocated: bad- vulnerable to oscillation.
Does this mean "In the same general area" or literally occupying the same space? :)
And Doug doesn't twist his heater wires!! :icon_eek: Oh boy...
Re. the heaters- I wanted to try running them in parallel and there really wasn't much room in this cramped space to get much of a "twist" in between the tube sockets. I pushed the limit of crowding stuff with this one. In any case, it worked fine. The reason they twist wires is to keep the wire cores equidistant so the AC heater signal will hum cancel (similar to humbucker coils). Another way of keeping them equidistant is to run them in parallel. I've also used zip cord for heaters, which by definition is two parallel wires (no twists). That works fine too.
See? "Pretty" has nothing to do with it. :icon_wink:
As for I/O wires- keep them as far away from each other as practically possible. With a typical 3pdt this usually ends up being about a 1/2 inch for the ends. Especially don't run them close and in parallel.
Quote from: DougH on April 08, 2010, 12:47:36 PM
Re. the heaters- I wanted to try running them in parallel and there really wasn't much room in this cramped space to get much of a "twist" in between the tube sockets. I pushed the limit of crowding stuff with this one. In any case, it worked fine. The reason they twist wires is to keep the wire cores equidistant so the AC heater signal will hum cancel (similar to humbucker coils). Another way of keeping them equidistant is to run them in parallel. I've also used zip cord for heaters, which by definition is two parallel wires (no twists). That works fine too.
Interesting. If I ever build another tube amp someday, I might try just paralleling those heater wires instead.
Quote from: DougH on April 08, 2010, 12:47:36 PM
As for I/O wires- keep them as far away from each other as practically possible. With a typical 3pdt this usually ends up being about a 1/2 inch for the ends. Especially don't run them close and in parallel.
Yeah, that is a big no no. That is unless you like and want to have problems with oscillation...
In general, there are two areas of this hobby that I hate........
- The winner without competition is drilling PCB:s
- The runner up is wiring the sodded effect, there is always some thing that happens and gets in the way of some other thing and shortens a third thing.
Well this could be my own fault cause of my stubborn way of shrink things to fit in a 1590A box. This one in particular was a mean @#$%er to tame. :icon_evil:
Tree of the switches has tree wires from them and one has two. And it wasn't until I was going to tighten the hex nuts that I released that there was not enough space for all of the nuts so I had to tighten them 1-3-4 and then 2 on top of 1&3
(http://solderman.fatabur.se/Donkey_Kong/DK_inside.jpg)
My one fault put it was a PITA.
BUT I Won !!!!
Victory over dead things has a sweeter taste then everything else
Wanne know how it sounds?
My favorite combo, 3:rd octave down+one octave up + Phaser45 + Chorus
http://solderman.fatabur.se/Donkey_Kong/DK%20chorus_ph45_3%20oct%20down%20and%201oct%20up.mp3 (http://solderman.fatabur.se/Donkey_Kong/DK%20chorus_ph45_3%20oct%20down%20and%201oct%20up.mp3)
A more contemplative thought is why we are doing this at all. I mean... After the 25th distortion box it's kind of hard to defend the 26:th with "I need it for the next gig" eave to one self.
So some of us get kicks from size and others do it for sexy wiring. As always there is no right or wrong way just your one way........ as I see it.
So is there any way to have sexy wiring that follows best practices?
Quote from: solderman on April 08, 2010, 03:20:05 PMBUT I Won !!!!
The fact that you made this work, amazes me.
If I can get away with as little off board wiring as possible I'm happy.
Quote from: soggybag on April 08, 2010, 03:36:20 PM
If I can get away with as little off board wiring as possible I'm happy.
Wifi?
Quote from: solderman on April 08, 2010, 03:20:05 PM
(http://solderman.fatabur.se/Donkey_Kong/DK_inside.jpg)
You sir, are a glutton for punishment! :icon_wink: Congratulations on getting that to work. :icon_cool:
Quote from: solderman on April 08, 2010, 03:20:05 PM
This one in particular was a mean @#$%er to tame. :icon_evil:
A
mean rhythm master??
http://artists.letssingit.com/tom-waits-lyrics-step-right-up-9pw9v3r (http://artists.letssingit.com/tom-waits-lyrics-step-right-up-9pw9v3r)
Quote from: benallison on April 08, 2010, 03:25:57 PM
So is there any way to have sexy wiring that follows best practices?
No problem at all keeping things neat and tidy and nice to look at, as long as it's built to work correctly.
I don't get this 'anti parallel' thing. Vero is parallel, plenty people use vero.
does this parallel/perpendicular business have anything to do with fields and induction? ???
Quote from: phector2004 on April 08, 2010, 05:33:46 PM
does this parallel/perpendicular business have anything to do with fields and induction? ???
Yes.
Gabriel
Quote from: benallison on April 08, 2010, 03:25:57 PM
So is there any way to have sexy wiring that follows best practices?
That's what old Hi-Watt guitar amps are for. Very pretty and very correct.
Running parallel and bundles isn't bad, it's what you're running together. I avoid solid core wire myself, it is more prone to breaking at joints, usually not a real issue for our stuff, but can become a problem for a piece that refuses to work right and has to be manipulated and handled a lot in troubleshooting.
Quote from: Ronsonic on April 08, 2010, 07:54:39 PM
Quote from: benallison on April 08, 2010, 03:25:57 PM
So is there any way to have sexy wiring that follows best practices?
That's what old Hi-Watt guitar amps are for. Very pretty and very correct.
The thing with the old Hiwatts, and the reason why the really pretty and neat wiring (when done
right) is preferable is that it is more robust, and will last longer in more demanding situations. Harry Joyce, whose company wired all those old Hiwatt amps, was really good at this stuff. There big contract was wiring submarines for the British Navy. But as Ronsonic says, its all about what you put next to what. I love all that aerospace/military grade wiring, but there is no question that it is major overkill for anything anybody here is building. I don't know about you, but any amp or pedal I build doesn't really NEED to be able to survive a blast from high order explosives at 15 feet, nor do they need to function after a 5 gee launch in the space shuttle! And building them that way is a lot of extra work that really isn't required. Doing it a couple times does help you understand why military acquisition budgets always seem so high, though!
Gabriel
Yeah, those old Hiwatt amps have some amazingly neat wiring. I agree that building stuff as if NASA was going to launch it into orbit is a bit excessive. I guess everyone needs some sort of sales gimmick, eh?
Quote from: G. Hoffman on April 08, 2010, 08:19:05 PM
I love all that aerospace/military grade wiring, but there is no question that it is major overkill for anything anybody here is building. I don't know about you, but any amp or pedal I build doesn't really NEED to be able to survive a blast from high order explosives at 15 feet, nor do they need to function after a 5 gee launch in the space shuttle! And building them that way is a lot of extra work that really isn't required.
Exactly.
None of this stuff is space flight hardware or even ground hardware (which I know a little about). These are toys for musicians, that's all. Our PLC racks in the mobile launcher have to handle the vibration of a Shuttle launch but a guitar amp is usually stressed from being loaded/unloaded from trucks more than anything else. If it fails, at worst some ticket holders are disappointed, but usually inconvenienced temporarily while the roadie gets the backup fired up. No one loses their life, let alone in any particularly excruciatingly painful way, because their amp wasn't wired with military grade wiring, or dressed like a Joyce amp.
Much like "golden" hi-fi systems, it's much ado about nothing AFAIC. Akin to an ermine-lined toilet seat...
from the info i have heard over the years, mil spec wiring, in addition to needing to be very durable, but also easily serviceable in field conditions. easy dis assembly, large access panels , components all in plain view/accessible, unobstructed for replacement or testing.
check this out
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4014
Quote from: DougH on April 08, 2010, 09:31:26 PM
None of this stuff is space flight hardware or even ground hardware (which I know a little about). These are toys for musicians, that's all. Our PLC racks in the mobile launcher have to handle the vibration of a Shuttle launch but a guitar amp is usually stressed from being loaded/unloaded from trucks more than anything else. If it fails, at worst some ticket holders are disappointed, but usually inconvenienced temporarily while the roadie gets the backup fired up. No one loses their life, let alone in any particularly excruciatingly painful way, because their amp wasn't wired with military grade wiring, or dressed like a Joyce amp.
All that being said, this is also a
hobby for most of the people on this board. If ridiculous over engineering gets you off - go for it! But just putting everything in straight lines with pretty bends is not the way to do it. If you are going to go that route, you need to learn enough to know what can be done while making it fully functional. Unless all you are after is a piece of visual art - and that's cool too, if that's your thing.
So, I guess the next step in making your pedals or amps really pretty inside is to learn the electronics part of it exceptionally well.
I'm not there. I would love to be able to wire up a Hiwatt clone and have it as pretty as a Harry Joyce built amp. but I am no where near having the skills. It is something I aspire to, because for me electronics is just a hobby. But for now, I'm more concerned with functional. I just finished an amp, and it is perfectly functional, but far from pretty. I intend to keep improving, and want to get to NASA like wiring; not because it is needed, but because it pleases
me. I will, I hope, NEVER do so at the expensive of a fully functioning circuit. I see solid core wire as one of those things - it looks pretty and all, but makes the circuit less functional, at least from a maintenance point of view. Same with ribbon cable.
It sounds like you've done some of the NASA level stuff. It make perfect sense to me that you wouldn't want to do that any more - its work, after all - but for some of us, the process of getting there is half (or more) of the fun! That doesn't make it required, and certainly if it is done badly it is kinda dumb, but I want to be able to do it well. For me, its kind of an atheist's version of doing things right for the glory of God.
Sorry, but after my Community Watch bicycle ride tonight, we went out for drinks, so I'm waxing a bit philosophical! (Wanna hear something cool? One of the reasons Bicycling Magazine just named Minneapolis the #1 bike city in the US is because of Trail Watch, and I was one of the founders of the program! I think that's cool as heck!)
Gabriel
Quote from: Michael Allen on April 08, 2010, 11:27:13 PM
check this out
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4014
Should we see some pictures there? Because I don't see any :( Maybe it's visible only for the forum members? T.
Edit: Now I can answer myself :) - there's a PDF attachment with pics (visible only for the forum members) - impressive, but already "too sexy" for my taste ;)
On the other hand, why not to become one, right? :) Place looks interesting..
I need to make something clear. AFAIC, there's absolutely nothing wrong with making things look pretty. If you enjoy that, more power to you. Especially in this hobby- everyone should find some aspect of it they really like and excel at and do it.
The thing I've realized I'm reacting to has nothing to do with anything anyone on this board is doing, or any of the photos I've seen (which I love btw). What gets under my skin is the implication in commercial booteek circles that something that looks pretty is "better", more reliable, sounds better, etc. My point is that's not necessarily true, esp if it's a poor wiring layout to begin with. Yes, neatness does count, but only so far. It's just more of the audiophile mentality creeping into music electronics that attempts to convince people that stuff is important, that's not so important. That's what gets me on my soapbox about this stuff.
Fender and Matchless amps enjoy great reputations with musicians in general, yet have some of the ugliest wiring you will ever see in an amp. Most musicians never look inside an amp and don't care to. They care about the sound and the reliability, the stuff they see, hear, and deal with outside the amp.
Quote from: G. Hoffman on April 09, 2010, 02:23:43 AM
It sounds like you've done some of the NASA level stuff. It make perfect sense to me that you wouldn't want to do that any more - its work, after all -
On the contrary I really love my job. The music thing is a hobby and it would be completely insane for me to apply the same standards to it that I have to in my job. There's no where near as much at stake. The goals for the hobby are make something that- sounds good, is reliable, and doesn't electrocute me (or anyone else) in the process. That's pretty basic stuff and pretty easy to do. Guitar amps are godawfully primitive circuits.
Quote from: DougH on April 09, 2010, 08:31:34 AM
Fender and Matchless amps enjoy great reputations with musicians in general, yet have some of the ugliest wiring you will ever see in an amp. Most musicians never look inside an amp and don't care to. They care about the sound and the reliability, the stuff they see, hear, and deal with outside the amp.
It always amuses me when people point to Fender stuff as a example of quality. You want to know what Leo Fender's goal was? Just barely good enough. Why? Because he could make it cheaply. Now, don't get me wrong, that's not necessarily a bad thing. He was able to make guitars and amps that
were good enough, and were cheap enough for a lot of people to buy them. That was a very good thing for the electric guitar and for rock `n roll. But that doesn't mean you can't easily improve on a lot of his designs. I mean, how many people actually leave their Strats stock these days? Even just the simple expedient of shielding the cavities, which Fender never does, will make a marked improvement in their usefulness. But Fender doesn't do it because, most of the time, it isn't a big deal.
Still and none the less, your point is absolutely correct - this stuff isn't rocket science ( ::) ). For most end users, what matters is how it sounds, and how reliable it is. But you've got to admit, a Hiwatt is a lot less likely to break down than a Fender!
Gabriel
You raise some good points, Gabriel. Leo was very enthusiastic about keeping costs down but only in the context of producing pro-grade instruments. His stuff could have been built cheaper but it wouldn't have met his reliability standards. His approach to "student" amps was just a smaller, simpler version of the big stuff. Look at old Danelectro, Valco, et al for how things might have been.
I don't know that your comparison between Fender and Hiwatt is fair. Both have jacks and capacitors and those parts fail far more often than anything else and both companies used top shelf parts. I've met both Fenders and Hiwatts with failed transformers and both probably in proportion to their market share. The one failure I have seen that is far more common in Fenders and is related to construction practice are failed solder joints. Especially the one resistor that runs lengthwise on the board. This is the area where turret boards are superior to Fender practice. As much prettier as the off-board wiring is on the Hiwatt the only functional improvement on Fender practice might be the buss wire ground on the back of the pots over the grounding plate.
I'm willing to bet that Doug does better, cleaner work by accident than a lot of guys, just from habit.
OK, folks, I guess I'll weigh in on this wiring business, FWIW.
My summer job after HS was wiring navigation systems for Flying Tigers airplanes. It was mil-spec, and my supervisor and the inspectors were VERY picky. It was all 19-stranded Teflon except for long fuselage runs which were nylon over fiberglass insulation, and the boss explained why that was, but it never made any sense to me.
Did we run wires parallel to each other and tie wires together? Yeah, a lot. Why? Because cabling with "service loops" was what was demanded by mil-spec. And in a vibration-sensitive environment, cabling reduced vibration-related breaks. How do I know that is actually true? Well, I don't. I asked my boss why they used all that finely-stranded wire instead of solid, and why we had to cable everything. He said that if we used solid and didn't cable it together like that, that if we put in on a truck and sent it to California (across the country), that a dozen connections would be broken by the time it arrived. He had worked electronics and military contracts for 20 years then, and he didn't seem like the bullshitter type. Pretty low key and facts-is-facts. He said he'd seen it done, and "it was a nightmare" to rework it.
Does that mean that we would run low level input signals next to output signals, or AC hum sources? Of course not. That is just plain BAD lead dress.
Square corners? BAD lead dress. Increases the chance of wire breakage. And it you want to know the real low down on mil-spec wiring, we had to use "anti-wicking" tweezers than placed a heat sink around the stranded conductor where it entered the teflon jacket, so the solder when you tinned the lead wouldn't wick up under the insulation. The rationale? (You know I asked). The inspector couldn't see a broken conductor that might be up under the insulation, and the most likely place for a wire to break was the junction between the solder-tinned-solid part of the wire and the regular stranding. And there was more, too. Don't tin the stranding so much you can't see the stranding; that's over-tinning and reduces reliability. You had to bundle the wires together just so and tie it every inch or more often if a conductor exited the bundle. Picky-picky-picky.
There was more, but you get the idea. Did it look pretty? I thought so. Sexy? Umm, I guess we all have different ideas of what is sexy, and mine has more to do with flesh and blood. Of course, I've heard that some jet pilots get a hard on before a carrier take-off, but it just doesn't translate somehow..., for me anyway.
mr coffee
great post, mr coffee. i appreciate it.
in the case of the pre-tinning heat sink tweezers, were you supposed to leave a short section untinned wire between the jacket and the wire so a future repair person could see that the tinning did not extend under the insulation?
I find some of that super straight wiring a bit disturbing to be honest :icon_confused:
I think you can still be neat and tidy while letting the wire curve more naturally.
WARNING - PERSONS WITH OCD TENDENCIES SHOULD *NOT* READ THIS POST. IT MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH.
Hi Joe and all,
Quotein the case of the pre-tinning heat sink tweezers, were you supposed to leave a short section untinned wire between the jacket and the wire so a future repair person could see that the tinning did not extend under the insulation?
That was the general idea, except they inspected the hell out of everything before it left the building, so there was never the chance of it getting to a future repair person if it wasn't right to start with. And I suppose part of the idea was that if a wire broke where the tinning stopped, a future repair person could see it easily because it wouldn't be up under the insulation. Planes do shake and jerk around a lot, which wiggles and tugs on the wiring, so I guess it made sense. Much harder on electronics than drunk roadies, I expect. :icon_lol:
Another inspection purpose of the "perfect-tinning" was so you could see the stranding. That way the inspector could also verify the connection as "less than 3 nicked strands (out of the 19), no strands missing" from how we stripped the wire.
Mostly we used thermal wire strippers, except where you couldn't get to it to strip the end without risking melting something else. I still use one I picked up at a hamfest, and I'm still hooked on 19-strand PTFE. In my active electronic guitars, the boards connect with cabling with service loops to the controls so you can get it out to work on it without over-stressing the connections on either end. Those little nylon cable clamps are great if you've got lots of connections you want to protect from bending at the ends. Camp the cabled wires at both ends of the service loop, and the only thing that flexes is stranded wire well away from the connection points. I learned that at Decca, too.
No ty-raps either - You had to make hand ties with woven nylon tape impregnated with micro-fiber anti-fungal wax. And you had to tie them a certain way, too, so if the knot came off, the tie wouldn't unravel without some real coaxing. Picky-picky-picky.
And BTW, you *can* run low level inputs and high level outputs near and parallel to each other in bundles if you use shielded cable for low level leads.
All of which seems like overkill for most anything we do around here. Although I do shield leads from input jacks from time to time with small diameter shielded wire if the notion strikes me it might be a good idea. Is it necessary? FIIK <LOL> I don't do production work, mostly one-offs. Every once in a coon's age I get somebody who wants ultra-reliable stuff, but the cost for the extra labor involved, top shelf components, and protection circuitry don't make sense for anybody of normal means IMHO. There are compromises well shy of mil-spec that may make sense for some heavy-duty road warriors. FWIW, I don't like cheap unsealed pots, and I think the extra cost for quality controls makes sense. Of course, I *hate* noisy stuff, and scratchy pots get under my skin. Just me.
@skrunk
QuoteI think you can still be neat and tidy while letting the wire curve more naturally.
The inspectors would have reamed us out if we did that kind of stuff. Square corners were verboten. Just another place to cause wires to break in service. They prescribed "fillet" curves for various gauges of wire as they approached bends and terminals. Squarer than that, and you got re-work tags. It may look pretty to some, but it's bad lead dress.
We had a lot of fun at Decca in spite all the mil-spec pickiness, especially when we'd have to work all night to get something out. Pizza on the boss, and sometimes beer if he was in *that* mood. :icon_lol:
mr coffee
cool post. thanks.
Hi all
I'm just finishing my AD/A flanger. I might just have to wire it like MR COFFEE says cause it sounds like a JET engine and it just might fly like one. And we don't wane have some problems in the air while playing do we ;D
Reading the NASA workmanship documents (my somewhat weird hobby, from the amount of time I spend doing it these days!), one of the things I found most amusing was the requirement for transparent shrink tubing - again, so the joint underneath it can be inspected. I've decided I like the look of it too, but that is a whole other thing!
I've got a couple of the anti-wicking heat-sinks, and I really do like them. My solder joints just seem more flexible, though you DO need to be careful not to birdcage the conductors behind the joint if you need to rework anything.
Gabriel
can you explain 'birdcage'?
Quote from: Ronsonic on April 11, 2010, 01:57:43 AM
I'm willing to bet that Doug does better, cleaner work by accident than a lot of guys, just from habit.
Thanks, but I don't do hardware at work. I do low level control software. Used to do VME stuff, now it's going PLC. But I am around the hardware a lot and yes, it's very tidy. But not in the same way as bowtweeky audio gear- tidy in the ways that really count. And it is some crazy stuff - 3" diameter multiconductor cables with potted connectors and so forth.
FWIW, my "hardware" skills with the hobby are pretty average. I've learned over time like everyone else. Some of the early stuff I did was pretty horrible. I just have a pragmatic view of what's important.
Quote from: DougH on April 09, 2010, 08:31:34 AM
Fender and Matchless amps enjoy great reputations with musicians in general, yet have some of the ugliest wiring you will ever see in an amp. Most musicians never look inside an amp and don't care to. They care about the sound and the reliability, the stuff they see, hear, and deal with outside the amp.
And I might add that when I acquired my 1974 Fender Twin Reverb, it had a loud popping noise when it heated up. The stripboard that the components were on was warped, I guess from years of being cooked inside the chassis. So because the stripboard was warped, there was a broken coupling cap that was arcing, which I understand is usually what causes a loud popping noise in a tube amp. Replaced that capacitor and all was fine.
But all of the "ugly" wiring has held up just fine for 35 years, and the amp doesn't oscillate or anything no matter how loud you make it. My only complaint about it is that it has a lot of hum compared to my other amps. I suppose if it were star grounded instead of all the grounds being soldered directly to the chassis it would be much quieter. Or at least it should have isolated input jacks.
The prettiest wiring job in the universe won't help with those issues. It's very hard to make star grounding look pretty anyway, it's kind of messy by its very nature.
Quote from: joegagan on April 12, 2010, 07:17:18 AM
can you explain 'birdcage'?
Strip a 1/2" of stranded wire, and tin just the very tip. Now, push the tip of the wire towards the insulation. The bit behind the tinning will birdcage.
Gabriel
QuoteFender and Matchless amps enjoy great reputations with musicians in general, yet have some of the ugliest wiring you will ever see in an amp.
I dunno - I think this is mighty fine looking... Inside & Out of my Matchless Lightning (They were nice enough to take a couple pictures while they building it! Sweet!)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22746818@N04/4515466331/in/set-72157623841777984/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22746818@N04/4515466331/in/set-72157623841777984/)
Quote from: Ronsonic on April 11, 2010, 01:57:43 AM
You raise some good points, Gabriel. Leo was very enthusiastic about keeping costs down but only in the context of producing pro-grade instruments. His stuff could have been built cheaper but it wouldn't have met his reliability standards. His approach to "student" amps was just a smaller, simpler version of the big stuff. Look at old Danelectro, Valco, et al for how things might have been.
I don't know that your comparison between Fender and Hiwatt is fair. Both have jacks and capacitors and those parts fail far more often than anything else and both companies used top shelf parts. I've met both Fenders and Hiwatts with failed transformers and both probably in proportion to their market share. The one failure I have seen that is far more common in Fenders and is related to construction practice are failed solder joints. Especially the one resistor that runs lengthwise on the board. This is the area where turret boards are superior to Fender practice. As much prettier as the off-board wiring is on the Hiwatt the only functional improvement on Fender practice might be the buss wire ground on the back of the pots over the grounding plate.
I'm willing to bet that Doug does better, cleaner work by accident than a lot of guys, just from habit.
Define "pro-grade?" Are we using the standard of a professional orchestra, where every single violin is worth a minimum of $20,000, and most quite a lot more?
I would say that Fender made instruments (in particular, since that is my area of expertise) which were just barely adequate for professional use, most of the time. Unless of course the bar has a beer cooler or a neon light on the stage circuit! They skimped on a lot of little things, and in my world (where people are paying over 4,000 for a guitar), that isn't acceptable. My idea of a "pro-grade" instrument is one where the cavities are all shielded, the finish is perfect, and the hardware doesn't pit the first time someone with acidic sweat looks at it. Fenders basic designs are spectacularly good, but in production they frequently cut corners. Of course, I'll never built 1,000 a year, much less a month, so I can afford to nit pick some of those details. But in Fender's amps, for instance, they have a tendency to be a bit random about things like grounding because it saved them a few dollars per unit, and there is no reason to do so.
I'd also argue that Fender never used "top-shelf" parts. They used parts that did the job for a reasonable price. Particularly Fender. There were parts available back then with better tolerances and such, but the price:improvement ratio just didn't justify the expense, so they didn't do it. Again, I don't think they were wrong to work this way - but in my mind "pro-grade" implies something that they weren't. They were consumer grade products. When I make stuff in my shop, and when I make stuff for my self at home, I aim to do a bit better than that. But consumer grade is still pretty damn good, and I think we all owe a lot to consumer grade products - most of the history of Rock & Roll was made on consumer grade instruments!
Gabriel
Quote from: G. Hoffman on April 12, 2010, 03:04:06 PM
Quote from: joegagan on April 12, 2010, 07:17:18 AM
can you explain 'birdcage'?
Strip a 1/2" of stranded wire, and tin just the very tip. Now, push the tip of the wire towards the insulation. The bit behind the tinning will birdcage.
Gabriel
HERE'S (http://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/links/sections/101%20General%20Requirements.html) a link to a NASA workmanship page. Towards the bottom is a example of birdcaged wire.
Gabriel
G. Hoffman - I just realized who you are! I played some of your & your dad's guitars at the Healdsburg Guitar Festival last year and a very good friend of mine owns one of your dads acoustics - it's his favorite instrument!
And - Love that NASA link - intimidating!!!
While feeling somewhat geeky I'm really enjoying the NASA docs.
http://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/links/sections/601%20General%20Requirements.html (http://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/links/sections/601%20General%20Requirements.html)
This has great pictures of how good solder joints look vs. bad ones - and how and why to place components one way and not the other...
Thanks for the link!
Quote from: Guitartoma on April 12, 2010, 05:46:45 PM
QuoteFender and Matchless amps enjoy great reputations with musicians in general, yet have some of the ugliest wiring you will ever see in an amp.
I dunno - I think this is mighty fine looking... Inside & Out of my Matchless Lightning (They were nice enough to take a couple pictures while they building it! Sweet!)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22746818@N04/4515466331/in/set-72157623841777984/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22746818@N04/4515466331/in/set-72157623841777984/)
Their work looks good. The more complex circuits end up looking a little bit messy. The Lightning is pretty simple circuitwise.
Matchless seems to wire their chassis' around where things are physically located on the chassis, and the wiring follows suit. The emphasis is where things are located, which appears to be to minimize noise from transformers, the best location for the tubes, etc. and not to make the wiring pretty. I always thought where they located the tubes on some of their models was kind of odd compared to Fender for example, which has them all in a row.
a soon as my lovely kalena gets home i will make sure she reads this entire thread (looks at all the pictures and links too)
i will ask her if it is sexy. will get back to you guys on that.
Quote from: joegagan on April 12, 2010, 08:52:05 PM
a soon as my lovely kalena gets home i will make sure she reads this entire thread (looks at all the pictures and links too)
i will ask her if it is sexy. will get back to you guys on that.
I bet that I can accurately predict the answer on that one! :icon_lol:
Sorry to go OT here but...Why are there lamps in that amp?
I dont remember seeing that in the matchless schematics. ???
Most/all the matchless amps have lit faceplates/logos.
Quote from: G. Hoffman on April 12, 2010, 06:55:12 PM
I would say that Fender made instruments (in particular, since that is my area of expertise) which were just barely adequate for professional use, most of the time.
I played a Fender Telecaster in a high school band in the mid-70's and it was an absolute piece of crap. My $100 Squire Strat is a much better built instrument than that Tele ever hoped to be. I never associated Fender with high quality, especially "back in the day". Yes, a lot of pros used the brand so it was minimal acceptable quality I suppose, but never really great. Looking back from today, I would say people were better off with Peavey than they ever were with Fender, from a reliability perspective. Marshall was another good one with their output xformers blowing due to inadequate protection of the screen grids. And EHX with their cheesy folded aluminum chassis, chaotic wiring, and cheap components were another example.
All of these name brands were icons of some sort but I laugh when people today hold them up as some sort of standard of quality. They all put out some pretty nasty stuff at times- and some of them
all the time.
Just to remind, Leo was out of Fender after 1965. If there were better built amps before then from any source, I'd love to hear about them. It's all well and fine to boast of our 21st Century sensibilities and construction practices, but we still aren't using better hardware, pots, jacks, switches and sockets.
Well
Since this tread has developed to contain the guts of Amps as well I might chip in my favorite. The work from Mojave Amp Works. There Amps has a killing sound AND looks as "Sexy" as an Amp inside can get. At least I admire there craftsmanchip.
(http://www.mojaveampworks.com/1Amplifiers/Concept/metal-filmsm.jpg)
(http://www.mojaveampworks.com/1Amplifiers/SideWinder/inside.jpg)
(http://www.mojaveampworks.com/8Gallery/Images/SideWinder/Dscn0341Sm.jpg)
(http://www.mojaveampworks.com/8Gallery/Images/Plexi45/Dscn0261Sm.jpg)
And they sound is built to kill.
http://www.mojaveampworks.com/5SoundClips/Scorpion/ScorpionHeavy-LPaul.mp3 (http://www.mojaveampworks.com/5SoundClips/Scorpion/ScorpionHeavy-LPaul.mp3)
The funny thing is that the guy who recorded this, Blues Saraceno (known to be a guitar wizard for those of you that did not know) has done his best recordings as far as I'm concerned on those Amp clips from Mojave Amp,s
I think those clips by far beats his records allthough the are short.
One day I want to own one of those.
Very important point here IMO is, that this wiring is sexy thanks to very smart layout of the chassis and thanks to fact, that the circuit is pretty simple actually - so good wiring is not only about good work with wires (if you catch my drift :icon_mrgreen:) and sometimes you just cannot make it so nice and tidy..
Quote from: solderman on April 13, 2010, 12:09:05 PM
One day I want to own one of those.
So build one - do you see there something you would not handle? ;)
T.
Edit: Btw. MetroAmp's Amp_Kit_Instructions (http://metroamp.com/wiki/index.php/Category:Amp_Kit_Instructions) show very nice wiring job!
sexiest offboard wiring = NO offboard wiring... only PCB mount. ;)
Quote from: caress on April 13, 2010, 12:22:33 PM
sexiest offboard wiring = NO offboard wiring... only PCB mount. ;)
Ooh! A paradox! The most delicious pie is one that doesn't exist. Hmmm... wait- is that a paradox, or just an impossibility?
The most delicious pie is the one that doesn't exist because I just ate it... :icon_wink:
Quote from: MikeH on April 13, 2010, 01:03:17 PM
Quote from: caress on April 13, 2010, 12:22:33 PM
sexiest offboard wiring = NO offboard wiring... only PCB mount. ;)
Ooh! A paradox! The most delicious pie is one that doesn't exist. Hmmm... wait- is that a paradox, or just an impossibility?
Quote from: DougH on April 13, 2010, 01:06:48 PM
The most delicious pie is the one that doesn't exist because I just ate it... :icon_wink:
The cake is a pie!
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Paradoxasaur (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Paradoxasaur)
*Official Derailment
Quote from: DougH on April 13, 2010, 08:56:54 AM
I played a Fender Telecaster in a high school band in the mid-70's and it was an absolute piece of crap.
Judging Fender in the 1950's by Fender in the 1970's is not a particularly valid practice. The Fender in the 50's and early 60's WAS good enough for most situations, if seldom better. Fender in the 70's is a whole other thing. Leo Fender strove to make things as cheap as practical. CBS era Fender strove to make things as cheap as possible. Very different things. They also tried to get market segments they didn't have the shop for. In short, they made crap. Even when they made good design decisions (the micro tilt adjustable neck), they always accompanied them with awful designs (the three bolt neck).
Quote from: Ronsonic on April 13, 2010, 11:50:43 AMIt's all well and fine to boast of our 21st Century sensibilities and construction practices, but we still aren't using better hardware, pots, jacks, switches and sockets.
Speak for yourself. The amp I just finished is all 2w (or higher) 1% metal film resistors, 5% film caps, 10% electrolytic caps, and 2w 5% pots. I'll grant that I'm still using Switchcraft #11 and #12 jacks, but that's just because they really are the best (a little minor work every 20 years, and they will last your lifetime!). I would also say that the overall consistency of electronic components has gotten much higher in the last 50 years. So, we get better parts for less money (particularly when adjusted for inflation).
You'll forgive me for being anti-nostalgic, but I don't have much patience for "the-past-was-better-than-today." If I'd been born in the fifties, I would have died by the time I was 13, so I don't think it was a much better.
Gabriel
I liked the Traynor tube amps that came out in the '60's - they were tested by throwing them off the roof of the (single-storey) factory building. Whereas the Mojave amps shown above have terminal strips mounted on standoffs, the Traynor (and many other) amps of the era used a terminal strip sandwiched onto another plain strip. Thus, there was area support rather than just support under the standoffs. The terminal strip and its underlying strip were bolted to the chassis, so a jolt in one direction compressed the strip against the chassis over its full area and in any other direction was no worse than the standoffs and sideways shear forces did not tend to break screws the way they would break standoffs. Their wiring was never noteworthy for being exquisitely neat or artistic, but it got the job done.
A number of you are probably familiar with military standards for testing such as MIL-E-810, but the major threat to music equipment is not temperature / vibration / shock / humidity or any of those issues covered in the MIL-standard. The main threat is abuse. The roadie who drops the amp on the asphalt before loading it into the van. Power line spikes. The guy who rips the cables out of the jacks rather than pulling them out carefully.
The Traynor amps had good chassis and transformers and circuitry that was nothing special, so they are great amps to modify. I modded one to take sweep tubes in the output rather than 6CA7's, tubes that were worth $37 apiece whereas the $6 sweep tubes had to be modified for lower screen voltages and addition of plate caps, but otherwise required no changes. The tubes I used were 6BQ6GT's (good for 25 watts) and no modifications (even to the bias voltages) would be required to upgrade to 6DQ6B's, which are rated at about the same power as 6CA7's. BTW, plate caps on amplifier output tubes look bitchin'.
Most amps of the era overloaded the output tubes grossly with plate supplies that were sometimes 150 volts above the absolute maximum ratings. Most sweep tubes can tolerate larger plate voltages. They ate tubes, but tubes were cheap and plentiful and available everywhere back then. Many drugstores had tube testers, so if you were down to your last 6V6GT (or whatever), you could go to the local store, test it and get a new one. Things are a little different now. I am one of those who believe that beauty and sexiness (the topic of this thread) follows function - but go with whatever turns your key.
Quote from: solderman on April 13, 2010, 12:09:05 PM
Well
Since this tread has developed to contain the guts of Amps as well I might chip in my favorite. The work from Mojave Amp Works. There Amps has a killing sound AND looks as "Sexy" as an Amp inside can get. At least I admire there craftsmanchip.
(http://www.mojaveampworks.com/1Amplifiers/Concept/metal-filmsm.jpg)
(http://www.mojaveampworks.com/1Amplifiers/SideWinder/inside.jpg)
(http://www.mojaveampworks.com/8Gallery/Images/SideWinder/Dscn0341Sm.jpg)
(http://www.mojaveampworks.com/8Gallery/Images/Plexi45/Dscn0261Sm.jpg)
And they sound is built to kill.
http://www.mojaveampworks.com/5SoundClips/Scorpion/ScorpionHeavy-LPaul.mp3 (http://www.mojaveampworks.com/5SoundClips/Scorpion/ScorpionHeavy-LPaul.mp3)
The funny thing is that the guy who recorded this, Blues Saraceno (known to be a guitar wizard for those of you that did not know) has done his best recordings as far as I'm concerned on those Amp clips from Mojave Amp,s
I think those clips by far beats his records allthough the are short.
One day I want to own one of those.
I think it's cool that I live where they operate.
Quote from: amptramp on April 13, 2010, 09:14:34 PM
Most amps of the era overloaded the output tubes grossly with plate supplies that were sometimes 150 volts above the absolute maximum ratings. Most sweep tubes can tolerate larger plate voltages. They ate tubes, but tubes were cheap and plentiful and available everywhere back then. Many drugstores had tube testers, so if you were down to your last 6V6GT (or whatever), you could go to the local store, test it and get a new one. Things are a little different now. I am one of those who believe that beauty and sexiness (the topic of this thread) follows function - but go with whatever turns your key.
Wow, really? 150V above absolute maximum is really pummeling those poor power tubes. :icon_eek:
I remember the days when tube testers and tubes were at the local grocery store, in the mid-1970s. Those days have come and gone. Now we are at the mercy of whoever sells them at whatever price they are asking for them. :icon_confused:
Hi,
that tubes have been cheaper the days back was something that I always belived too until I saw the first list catalogue prices of them back in the 60s and 70s. Though they were nominal cheaper you have take to account what people do earn in average these days. Doing that most common tubes like EL34/84 etc. have cost at least twice as much as they do nowadays. Same with gas, coffee, meat, transistors... :D
But this might only apply to Germany... :icon_wink:
Regards
Helge
Sexy offboard wiring in amps? Have a look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsPf2I_EwfY
The new Hiwatts ... yammi.:)
Quote from: G. Hoffman on April 13, 2010, 04:06:10 PM
The Fender in the 50's and early 60's WAS good enough for most situations, if seldom better. Fender in the 70's is a whole other thing.
Be that as it may, Fender was always a "name" and used by pros, regardless of its pre or post CBS status. I haven't checked lately but I'd be willing to bet that mid-70's Fender gear goes for a high price these days because it's old and it's "Fender".
My point still stands- big name music companies have all put out their share of garbage. Which is why I laugh at the snob appeal some of this stuff has.
Quote from: G. Hoffman on April 13, 2010, 04:06:10 PM
You'll forgive me for being anti-nostalgic, but I don't have much patience for "the-past-was-better-than-today." If I'd been born in the fifties, I would have died by the time I was 13, so I don't think it was a much better.
I agree with that. Not to mention, the fifties was one of the stupidest eras in the history of the U.S. But I won't go into that here...
i love this thread. doug, you crack me up when you joke around, but your serious points are great too.
so many great experts to learn from here, thanks to everyone.
doug, i could go down a half mile from here and buy a mid 70s twin in perfect working condition for 600 bucks. i would say that it is very inexpensive for what it is. that means it has not followed inflation for about 30 years, let alone increase in value.
on the other foot, the average 70s car is worth pennies on the dollar of its 70s value, so i guess fender amps aren't too bad. but they haven't appreciated.
For the wire fetishists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJibf8uZnQ&feature=player_embedded
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJibf8uZnQ&feature=player_embedded)
Quotedoug, i could go down a half mile from here and buy a mid 70s twin in perfect working condition for 600 bucks. i would say that it is very inexpensive for what it is. that means it has not followed inflation for about 30 years, let alone increase in value.
Yeah Joe, that was just a bet. Obviously one I would have lost... :icon_redface: :icon_redface: :icon_wink:
It was just a guess, looking at how well nostalgia sells with other stuff. I always thought the 70's Fender guitars were getting expensive, but I could be mistaken.
true, doug, a few years back before the recession the mid-late 70s fender teles and strats were starting to get stupid expensive at the guitar shows. i laughed because i had the same experiences with the 70s stuff that you did. i heard from someone who lived in fullerton in the 70s that a lot of the workers making guitars were meth heads.
They're still stupid expensive around here
Yep same here
my lawyer called, he said i must retract the meth head allegation and apologize to all the families of those who may have or may be in the future affected by said allegation.
so here goes. i 'polo-gize.
Quote from: joegagan on April 14, 2010, 01:26:50 PM
my lawyer called, he said i must retract the meth head allegation and apologize to all the families of those who may have or may be in the future affected by said allegation.
so here goes. i 'polo-gize.
Okay, I'll retract the "Nice..." response I was going to make to your retracted comment, then.
eBay has really messed up peoples perceptions of older guitars. But I think another part of it is that a lot of younger guys who are buying guitars have a hard time getting the difference between guitars that were made before they were born. Then, there are people who assume that when we tell them that `70's Fenders suck, we are just being nostalgic ourselves. The one that really gets to me is guys who want to keep their 70s Fenders completely stock so they don't "wreck the value," assuming that one day they will be as valuable as a `50's Fender. Sorry dude, not going to happen. There are only a few thousand `50's Fender Strats - maybe as many as 10,000, but I don't think so. There are probably at least 10 times the number of 70's Strats. Supply and demand tells us what is going to happen there!
Gabriel
Quote from: Thomeeque on April 13, 2010, 12:20:12 PM
Very important point here IMO is, that this wiring is sexy thanks to very smart layout of the chassis and thanks to fact, that the circuit is pretty simple actually - so good wiring is not only about good work with wires (if you catch my drift :icon_mrgreen:) and sometimes you just cannot make it so nice and tidy..
Quote from: solderman on April 13, 2010, 12:09:05 PM
One day I want to own one of those.
So build one - do you see there something you would not handle? ;)
T.
Edit: Btw. MetroAmp's Amp_Kit_Instructions (http://metroamp.com/wiki/index.php/Category:Amp_Kit_Instructions) show very nice wiring job!
Yes............ ;D
The rent on the mortgage money you have to pay for getting.....
That Power transformer
That OT transformer
NOS matched tubes
Mustard and mica caps
Silocon silver wire
To put it all together is a pieace of cake compared to the cost of buying the hardware. :icon_evil:
Quote from: davent on April 14, 2010, 11:28:31 AM
For the wire fetishists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJibf8uZnQ&feature=player_embedded
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJibf8uZnQ&feature=player_embedded)
Well
since this tread has wondered off to every ting
Her is the clip of the century
It's a mad Frenchman DYI-ing hes own vaccum tubes
Thai is truly amazing stuff. DYI taken to a religious level.
http://dailymotion.alice.it/video/k4w0naemVWh83oryFm (http://dailymotion.alice.it/video/k4w0naemVWh83oryFm)
If you haven't seen this don't miss it.
Quote from: solderman on April 17, 2010, 04:14:00 PM
Quote from: davent on April 14, 2010, 11:28:31 AM
For the wire fetishists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJibf8uZnQ&feature=player_embedded
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJibf8uZnQ&feature=player_embedded)
Well
since this tread has wondered off to every ting
Her is the clip of the century
It's a mad Frenchman DYI-ing hes own vaccum tubes
Thai is truly amazing stuff. DYI taken to a religious level.
http://dailymotion.alice.it/video/k4w0naemVWh83oryFm (http://dailymotion.alice.it/video/k4w0naemVWh83oryFm)
If you haven't seen this don't miss it.
that is brilliant......love the tune too...
Quote from: G. Hoffman on April 14, 2010, 04:00:59 PM
eBay has really messed up peoples perceptions of older guitars. But I think another part of it is that a lot of younger guys who are buying guitars have a hard time getting the difference between guitars that were made before they were born. Then, there are people who assume that when we tell them that `70's Fenders suck, we are just being nostalgic ourselves. The one that really gets to me is guys who want to keep their 70s Fenders completely stock so they don't "wreck the value," assuming that one day they will be as valuable as a `50's Fender. Sorry dude, not going to happen. There are only a few thousand `50's Fender Strats - maybe as many as 10,000, but I don't think so. There are probably at least 10 times the number of 70's Strats. Supply and demand tells us what is going to happen there!
Gabriel
I love my '77 Fender they ARE better than the modern ones. The main difference being the quality of the wood used in the body and the standard of craftmanship. This guitar is heavy as hell and built to last where as most modern strats ive played just feel like assembly line mass manufactured machines (obv not all of them). They arent always going to shoot up in value, but my saving grace with this one is that its signed by peter green of fleetwood mac. Just my two cents ::)
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n121/knealebrown/IMG_0234.jpg)
also everyone knows the more beaten up something is the better it sounds ;D
Thanks for those nasa links, ill have to read some more stuff like that. BTW it must be a PITA working on the shop floor for NASA, 'and i though my boss was picky about details' :D
that really is a pretty strat. i always liked the looks of the black pickguard era. especially sunbursts.
i have a friend with a similar large headstock where the finish is so aged it looks orange-ish brown. i heard that even in the urethane era, the headstocks received a quick shot of lacquer to lock down the decal before the poly went on. hence the yellowing.
Quote from: G. Hoffman on April 14, 2010, 04:00:59 PM
eBay has really messed up peoples perceptions of older guitars. But I think another part of it is that a lot of younger guys who are buying guitars have a hard time getting the difference between guitars that were made before they were born. Then, there are people who assume that when we tell them that `70's Fenders suck, we are just being nostalgic ourselves. The one that really gets to me is guys who want to keep their 70s Fenders completely stock so they don't "wreck the value," assuming that one day they will be as valuable as a `50's Fender. Sorry dude, not going to happen. There are only a few thousand `50's Fender Strats - maybe as many as 10,000, but I don't think so. There are probably at least 10 times the number of 70's Strats. Supply and demand tells us what is going to happen there!
Yeah, I agree. While we're at it, we could also throw in old guitar pedals, too. Or anything that is "vintage".
It's funny, when I was a kid in the 70s, an old guitar was just an old guitar. They didn't fetch a lot of money (not talking about 50s Strats or that sort of thing, although in the 70s they weren't crazy like today). But today, anything with a "vintage" label on it is like legalized highway robbery and people apparently want to be robbed. :icon_rolleyes:
Quote from: knealebrown on May 20, 2010, 04:41:17 AM
I love my '77 Fender they ARE better than the modern ones. The main difference being the quality of the wood used in the body and the standard of craftmanship.
Nope. Modern Strats are FAR better designed and built than the old ones. The workmanship coming out of the USA and Japanese factories is first class. As far as them feeling mass produced - ALL Fenders feel mass produced, because they are - shocking! - mass produced instruments. That was the whole point. Leo Fender looked at a guitar and asked, "What can we take away to make it easier and cheaper to build?" That was his whole philosophy, and it lead to guitars which were cheap enough for anyone to buy them, which I think we can all agree was probably a really good thing for rock `n roll. The quality of work coming out of Fender in the last 15-20 years has been the highest they've ever had. They are new, which has some downsides, but they are exceptionally well built guitars. Mass produced, yes, but mass produced well.
Gabriel
Where there any conclusions as to when you can twist your wires? I rate twisted/spiraled wires look pretty sexy!
It's fine to twist the DC wires together, but should one twist the three/two wires to each pot for example?
Really wish I could find some solid-core coloured ribbon wire locally... :icon_mrgreen: