Hey guys!
I've run out of room on my dc brick, so I'd like to build my own one...preferably with about ten 9V DC jacks and a maybe
2 DC jacks (hopefully switchable between 12-15-18V). I'd like all of them to be isolated, to cut down on noise.
Does anyone out there have any layouts/schematics etc for something like that?
Thanks! :)
Where are you going to get the transformer?
Um no idea! I don't know a lot about power supplies; is a special transformer needed? I have several
salvaged ones, and surely they sell them at Jaycar etc? Or is building what I want an impossibility?
I built three of the general guitar gadgets 4 isolated output boards and put them in one box. Eight outputs are 9volt and 4 are 18v (well, three actually because one's not working right). Works great but not the cheapest solution ( 6 transformers). I also made my own box so I'm not sure what you would use for that.
Just have to be careful with the AC supply wires and make sure everything is mounted securely.
I was hoping to keep it smallish...maybe around the size of a Pedal Power +2 or something. My DC Brick is just
so nice and compact.
DIY is good for a lot of things but making stuff smaller isn't usually one of them.
I really can't imagine you being able to build what you want in such a small enclosure.
Quote from: Hides-His-Eyes on April 17, 2010, 12:09:55 PM
DIY is good for a lot of things but making stuff smaller isn't usually one of them.
I really can't imagine you being able to build what you want in such a small enclosure.
How do they do it in the dc brick etc ?
Open it up and see!
By the way... the new avatar is awesome phil.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on April 17, 2010, 01:05:31 PM
Open it up and see!
By the way... the new avatar is awesome phil.
Jacob
:D Ya, buts my playings...is dildo's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMewRRJCLm8
Yeah I noticed that You'd shaved !
Quote from: Tonemonger on April 17, 2010, 01:19:39 PM
Yeah I noticed that You'd shaved !
..and became a cartoon! :D Funny though, the goatee grows back every time I leave the forum...odd..
Have you read R.G.'s Spyder article on GeoFex? Go do that, and you will understand what you need for a power supply.
You are unlikely to be able to make it as small as a PP2 or a Brick. They are making things with modern production techniques, and they are using custom transformers. Expensive, but small. I've looked inside my PP2+. It made my eyes cramp.
That said, you can get a very useful transformer from Weber (or Small Bear carries them as well) which is designed for an isolated pedal power supply. It won't give you the higher DC voltages you are after, but you could add a second small transformer for that if you wanted. Just make sure you can get the current you need from it. After that, its a pretty simple matter of a rectifier, some caps, and a regulator for each tap on the transformer. Make sure you remember the fuse on the incoming AC line.
Gabriel
It may be worth your while to experiment a bit to see where isolated power benefits you and where it doesn't. There will almost certainly be some pedals that can happily share a daisy chain with no appreciable noise penalty, especially if the supply is regulated and well filtered, and others that really benefit from their very own tap. This could save you a lot of space, expense and trouble (even if it isn't a very DIY solution).
Hmm...not too keen on daisy chaining at all. From past noise issues, I would only do it in desperation these days. Which
I may have to do soon, having filled up my DC Brick. Damn you DIY!! [shakes fist at heavens] ;D
The most compact solution of average difficulty would be to wind your own transformer. It's really not as hard as it sounds. Basically you dismantle a transformer, unwind the secondary (leave the primary that connects to the wall voltage intact), wind your own secondaries on it, and reassemble. Depending on how the transformer you want to convert is constructed, this may be very simple or impossible.
Here's my 8 output 9V supply with a rewound transformer:
(http://i47.tinypic.com/8vu4cn.jpg)
If you really want a small yet powerful power supply you would have to go into SMPS design or similar and that's a LOT of theory & experience to grasp, some people have entire careers devoted to it (plus it is dangerous stuff to DIY). But if you are sticking with linear, which really is the only option here, then you can't really shrink it down too much, you are limited by the size of your transformer and that is determined by the amount of power you want available. You have to decide where to draw the line, where the increase in size makes the increase in power not worth it.
Why do you re-wind the secondary?
Quote from: philbinator1 on April 18, 2010, 10:48:56 PM
Hmm...not too keen on daisy chaining at all. From past noise issues, I would only do it in desperation these days. Which
I may have to do soon, having filled up my DC Brick. Damn you DIY!! [shakes fist at heavens] ;D
There are plenty of pedals that will quite happily share a daisy chain with no ill effects whatsoever, and there are plenty (Especially digital ones) which really won't.
Give it a try before you start spending silly money.
Quote from: philbinator1 on April 19, 2010, 06:52:07 AM
Why do you re-wind the secondary?
Transformers are fairly simple devices, you have a metal core, typically shaped like EI, they are called E-I cores because they are made of a bunch of E and I shaped thin slabs of magnetic-firendly material stacked together. Then you have the windings, which are enameled wire (insulated with a thin coating) wrapped around the center leg of the E in the EI shape. There are usually two windings, a primary winding and a secondary winding, but you can have as many secondaries as you'd like. The primary winding is hooked up directly to the wall, so you don't want to touch that winding - it is already made to safety standards and set up. The reason you want to unwind the secondary and put a new one on is you will NOT find what you are looking for in any transformer on the market. There is no transformer commercially available to do exactly what you want (there is one (http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=597) made for pedalboard supplies but it is only nine outputs for 9 volts I believe, it's called the WPDLXFMR-1), since in your case you would need twelve secondary windings at ~10VAC... So the solution is to get a transformer, take off whatever secondary it has on it, and wind twelve different secondary windings onto the core to get your twelve 10VAC outputs.
The transformer outputs a voltage based on a ratio of turns between windings. For example, a 120:1 turns ratio transformer will output 1VAC on the secondary when 120VAC is put into the primary. To get the 10VAC outputs with an already made primary, you wind say 10 turns onto the secondary, reassemble the core, and test the voltage on the output. Using the voltage you get on the test and knowing the number of turns it took to get that voltage, you calculate how many turns you need to get to 10VAC or whatever voltage you need (aim for a peak voltage 2-3 volts higher then the output you want to have, and then use a regulator to smooth it out and bring it down). THen begin the laborious process of winding them all.
My own recommednation is to simply throw together what I like to call a power distribution box.
At its simplest, this is just a small plastic box with the appropriate jacks; basically a "multiple" for DC power. Connect the distribution box up to all the elements of the pedalboard with suitable cables, and all you have to do is plug a wallwart into the box when it's time to play. You can include an indicator LED to let you kow when the power is live.
Alternatively, such a box can include various degrees and types of regulation. So, you could plug an 18VDC wallwart into it, and provide down-regulation to 12 and 9v with some 3-pin regulators and suitable caps.
Or, you could plug the 9VDC adaptor of your choice into it and pack another 1000-2200uf of capacitance in there to smooth out the ripple a little more.
Or, you could provide all the regulation in the box and plug an AC-output adaptor into it.
All of these can work just fine, depending on your needs. The nice thing about this approach is that the box can be made as small as you need it to be if you don't have to include the actual transformer in it.
Quote from: JKowalski on April 19, 2010, 12:42:33 AM
Here's my 8 output 9V supply with a rewound transformer:
(http://i47.tinypic.com/8vu4cn.jpg)
nice job! (does that say 20 A on the case? haha)
Can one use any elements in a distribution box to 'isolate' with any effectiveness previously parallel outputs with regulators and capacitors, etc?
Thanks guys, I really appreciate the advice! Mark, do you have a link with some more in-depth instructions
about your PD box?
Quote from: Hides-His-Eyes on April 19, 2010, 12:13:06 PM
Can one use any elements in a distribution box to 'isolate' with any effectiveness previously parallel outputs with regulators and capacitors, etc?
You can certainly provide some degree of isolation, though admittedly not to the same degree as having a specially wound transformer, as was illustrated, or having multiple individual wallwarts. But, if you had a string of 7809-based regulated outputs fed from the same 1A wallwart, you'd certainly have more regulation than you do from your typical daisy-chain cable.
Quote from: philbinator1 on April 19, 2010, 12:21:15 PM
Mark, do you have a link with some more in-depth instructions about your PD box?
I have some pictures of one example, which I can't see to link to from work, but I'll try and link to them later this evening.
The overall plan gets more complicated for those who have more than one digital pedal on their pedalboard, since there can be clock-related noise generated. But if you have, say, one digital pedal, and a bunch of analog stomps, here would be nothing to prevent you from having two regulated outputs with 1A capacity (regulators come in 100ma and 1A flavours) fed from a common external supply/transformer, and multiple output jacks fed from one of them.
Ok cool, I'll look foward to your pics. Thanks again dude! :)
I'm pretty sure regulators will only offer protection against noise generated by the effects themselves, such as LFO ticking, digital hash, etc that may be coming from one pedal and getting picked up by another pedal. (and if the hash is way too excessive it may not even be enough for that) They will not break any ground loops that induce 60Hz humming which seems to be what you want to do in the first place.
I agree that going all the way with full isolation is excessive in some instances, you can definitely get by with daisy-chaining/distribution and come out with no problems whatsoever, it just depends on your setup. However, full isolation is pretty much a guaranteed fix-all for pedalboard noise, and if it is also well regulated you will not have to worry about either 60Hz hum or cross-pedal noise. It pretty much boils down to three options:
- Deal with the noise and use whatever
- Do some experimenting with your setup and find the cheapest/easiest solution to solve your problems
- Go all out, spend the money and time to get something that you won't have to think about again. (unless you build it badly, of course XD)
Agreed. Some sources of undesirable sounds require more advanced and costlier forms of power. My own approach is like a taxi-driver: whatever gets you back on the road fast and cheaply. Others may opt for a more "professional" solution, and wisely so.
For everything but the really high current draw (usually) digital pedals, the Weber Transformer really is a good idea. It has 8 11V 300mA windings which regulate down to 9V very well, and 1 9V 2A winding for 9V AC effects. If you need an 18V output, you can use two windings in series, too. For the price, it seems pretty hard to beat, though it may not be big enough for you. Then again, if you need to make something compact, any larger transformer is going to be a problem!
Gabriel
As promised, here's a picture of an example of what I was talking about. This is a simple small plastic box, with one in jack and 4 out. This particular example is really more of a higher-end daisy-chain device. There is no isolation between outputs, merely a 1000uf cap to assist in the smoothing of what comes from the wallwart, and the 4 output jacks that allow one to run power cables of optimum length to locations on a pedalboard.
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/Mark_Hammer/Dscf1014-1.jpg)
Do yo have schematic diagram for power supply with 8 output? I just want to built my own power supply for my pedals, thank you God bless
Quote from: Mark Hammer on April 20, 2010, 11:19:51 AM
As promised, here's a picture of an example of what I was talking about. This is a simple small plastic box, with one in jack and 4 out. This particular example is really more of a higher-end daisy-chain device. There is no isolation between outputs, merely a 1000uf cap to assist in the smoothing of what comes from the wallwart, and the 4 output jacks that allow one to run power cables of optimum length to locations on a pedalboard.
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/Mark_Hammer/Dscf1014-1.jpg)
I like!
Just a quick thanks to mark, I just built one of these for my pedal board, works great and no more messy daisy chains.
:o keeping my eye on this
I've had really good luck with the AMZ power board and the Jameco 18V wall-wart that Jack recommends. It's got 18V, 12V, and 9V outs. Mine's powering a Boss Giga-delay (brutally noisy), 2 L6 modelers, and a crapload of DIY analog stuff. I'm in the process of moving it from a B to BB sized box and getting rid of the -9V and adjustable 9V ports. The small box is right on the edge of building up too much heat so if I start stringing too many pedals off a single port (like more than 6) the regulators get a bit of an attitude. I'll mount the regs to the case to dissipate heat a bit more efficiently.
I'm really fond of THIS (http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/Huminator/index.htm). I've never really ran my pedals off of batteries (since I use digital effects sometimes), but I never really bought a good power supply for it. I found that nifty little schematic and started incorporating it into my pedals that I make (with an option to switch it off if you already have a high end power supply). It works out really well for turning a crappy 15 dollar wall wart with a ton of hum to completely silent. You could put it into a small box and then daisy chain your pedals together. It's like the idea Mark had, just smaller (1000 uf capacitors are huge!).
this is what i use. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ARTEC-SPB-8-POWER-BRICK-EFFECTS-POWER-STATION-NEW-/230566809262?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item35aeda4eae) not diy, but economical.
Quote from: Jhouse on January 10, 2011, 03:41:04 PM
I'm really fond of THIS (http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/Huminator/index.htm). I've never really ran my pedals off of batteries (since I use digital effects sometimes), but I never really bought a good power supply for it. I found that nifty little schematic and started incorporating it into my pedals that I make (with an option to switch it off if you already have a high end power supply). It works out really well for turning a crappy 15 dollar wall wart with a ton of hum to completely silent. You could put it into a small box and then daisy chain your pedals together. It's like the idea Mark had, just smaller (1000 uf capacitors are huge!).
Tried all of them.
Batteries, power supply bundles, daisy chains and.
"Take away" techniques, starting with 'perfect' power supplies [DC 9v batteries] and various daisy chainings, even multi-effect-panel experiments to replace the cells with power-patches were conducted to report:
The environment is loud, we don't notice until after we've managed to find ways to recieve and boost the everpresent signals.
Wahs have inductor/coils which are 'can be pickups'.
Fuzzface can be radio reciever with built in signal boost.
High gain signals can produce hash that finds it's way into sensative input signal areas, 'grounded input when bypassed', shielding the sensative input wire, adequate cap-filter options mentioned.
LFO's may be noticed to wobble the power supply and output 'click' into thier immediate environment.
And all that work was futile when what I guess was some 'third wave' activities...the ones I imagine were created when 2 or more other waves contributed energies to create the dreaded 3rd wave, a sum/difference result of it's creator waves. Additional frenetic yet futile re-patch-work show ensued, it was only sardonically entertaining.
Once the KANA was taken [kill all noise approach], the reports were greatly simplified.
I built a Spyder, even with spare parts usage/savings and 'ol CPU PS box w/IEC salvaged, the deal-links above [filtered/regulated/floating DC outputs] looks like the recommendable option, amazing deal even, seems like the price jumped down recently.
hi there guy, I'm trying to build a power supply, the idea is that this supply must be completely quiet, so I'm gonna set a EMI filter at the begining and then want to use a hammond 229B12 dual pack tranformer, but at this ponit I0ve got some problems. First Im from southamerica so the voltage here is 220 that's why i have got that kind of transformer, I already have drew an scheme and a layout but not quite sure if it well set i mean to get the 220v without problems. I also want to use a fuse amp but im doubious aout it range it could be 1/8 or a 1/4 fuse amp.
i hope you can help me with it
thanks.
scheme: (http://s17.postimage.org/kmakdtzij/shuper_fuente_scheme.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/kmakdtzij/)
layout: (http://s8.postimage.org/mwh8o1tn5/Layout_shuperfuente.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/mwh8o1tn5/)
pantufla
The 229B12 is not going to do this for you since you have two 6.3 volt outputs at 900 mA which can be connected in series to act as one 12.6 VAC output at 900 mA. The 6.3 will not run a 9-volt regulator, so there cannot be two independent outputs - the AC output windings have to be connected in series to get one 12.6 VAC 900 mA output. You have to choose a different transformer to use the schematic you provided.
thaks for your answer, now a got two option
first, change the scheme to work in series, so it should be something like this (not sure if it is good)
(http://s8.postimage.org/d6b5nro0l/shuper_fuente_scheme_2.png) (http://postimage.org/)
image hosting (http://postimage.org/)
second, change the transformer for a 229C24 series24 24V C.T. @ parallel 1A 12V @ 2A it would work? in that way echa pack will give 12v 1a, and i will keep working with the same scheme, so now the layout is ok? and what do u think about the fuse, it should be 1/4 or 1/8?
Transfromer data sheet: http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/5c0013.pdf
If you run the two input windings in parallel, the transformer will only be rated for a 115 VAC input. It will blow the fuse if you plug it into 220 VAC.
The 229C24 should work.
I would not use a 1/8 fuse as it can only allow 27.5 watts and if you are planning on a pair of 1-amp outputs, that is 18 watts output and 25.2 watts ahead of the regulators. But that is not the only problem. The 7809 current limits at about 1.5 amps, so this will result in 27 watts at the output and you still have the losses of the diode bridge and regulators as well as the inrush current to charge the filter capacitors. I am not certain a 1/4 amp fuse would even do the trick. I guess the question is, what are you trying to protect with the fuse? The power lines can take more than 1/4 amp. The only thing that really needs protection is the power supply itself, so maybe the protection should be sized for the short-term overcurrent rating of the transformer. Some enterprising people use a lamp in series with the input for testing. If all is well, the lamp is at too low a current to light. If something shorts, the lamp goes on and tells you there is a problem but limits the current itself. This could be incorporated permanently.
There's a good thread on this subject here:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=97482.0
I don't think it's small though
thanks alot but I want to create somthing small, maybe fit in a hammond 1590S.
any way I gnona make anthor scheme to clarify some conection and finally once i built it I goin to post it here.