I'm doing a little prototyping work for a company that sells "hand built" pedals. They sent me a sample to go by, and I looked inside of it and it's all SMD and everything is PCB mounted. If I had bought their product for myself I would have been annoyed that it says that it's hand made, but it's not really. :icon_rolleyes:
Assembled by robots: not hand built.
Not assembled by robots: hand built.
I think it's misleading to say it's "hand built". A more accurate term would be "hand assembled". A wave soldering picker-placer machine is a robot.
But did someone build the robot by hand? :D
IMHO....
If at ANY TIME during the process, a robot is used for soldering, assembly, etc. then the unit is no longer "hand made."
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on April 26, 2011, 11:14:31 AM
IMHO....
If at ANY TIME during the process, a robot is used for soldering, assembly, etc. then the unit is no longer "hand made."
I guess that's my position, too.
I assemble SMD circuit boards by hand all the time. Just because it's SMD doesn't mean somebody didn't place each component on the board and solder them on one at a time.
Granted it is much more likely that a fab house assembled them if the parts are all SMD, but does not necessarily exclude the possibility of being hand built by a tech.
Quote from: StereoKills on April 26, 2011, 11:19:17 AM
I assemble SMD circuit boards by hand all the time. Just because it's SMD doesn't mean somebody didn't place each component on the board and solder them on one at a time.
Granted it is much more likely that a fab house assembled them if the parts are all SMD, but does not necessarily exclude the possibility of being hand built by a tech.
I agree whole heartedly Stereo however, you can DEFINITELY tell the difference between a hand-soldered SMT board and one that is done by robotics ;)
Agreed. Although I have seen some hand soldered SMD stuff that could make you check twice it was so nice.
The SMD components on the board in this product is not done by hand, it's obviously done by machine. Besides, why would they do SMD by hand in a commercial product? That doesn't save them any time.
Sigh.
I regard the term "hand built" in advertising as being the equivalent of "I think I can hoodwink you into being happier with the product and any little oddities it has if I convince you it was carefully hand assembled by a bearded, gray Swiss watchmaker over a period of days." Near as I can tell, that is the intent.
Then there is the issue of what, if anything, hand built means. Did the maker refine the copper ore and silicon? Or did they buy robot-made parts and hook them together. Do robots have hands? What is a hand? The word "Manufactured" has its roots in the Latin words for "made by hand" in any case.
And you can bet that if someone is looking for a strict definition of "hand made", "assembled by hand" and so on, they're looking for how close to the line they can get without actually lying in their advertising.
That's one reason the company I work for makes no bones about it. We make our stuff in a factory, in China; we explicitly do not use true bypass, and I can elucidate the reasons. We change things for engineering and durability reasons, and can list them. We produced a line of pedals designed specifically to be as inexpensive as possible without removing the sound qualities of the circuit, and tell people that. It makes me feel cleaner. :icon_lol:
I wish that all companies could have the same standards as yours RG.
Seems like a massive grey area to me.
Is "hand built" the same as "hand assembled" ?? Who knows? Depends on who you ask?
It seems that the final assembly of pretty much all pedals is going to have to be at least somewhat by hand, even if all the parts are on-board and wave soldered. I guess there are machines that could tighten nuts and adjust knobs onto the shafts, etc, but I would imagine that kind of technology isn't really needed for pedal manufacturing.
My personal opinion is that if the on-board parts were soldered mechanically in some fashion, it's not really hand built. That is, if the builder orders the PCBs pre-stuffed, it's not really hand built. Granted, I don't especially put a whole lot of importance on that. I'm far more interested in something being "well built".
Now there's also the whole "hand wired" marketing tag as well. I suppose that means any off-board wiring was done by a human. But I suspect it's more of a catch-phrase than anything else.
Side note: I actually appreciate the design work that goes into making a pedal that has board-mounted pots and jacks. It requires a lot more work in the design phase than having everything off-board. And it saves time during assembly, which means lower labor cost per unit. And that, in *theory*, should lead to a lower retail price on the pedal. That doesn't always happen in the boutique world, however.
I've done assembly work for two boutique companies when I was involuntarily unemployed from 3/2009 to 7/2010. One of them sent me hand-stuffed PCBS and I finished everything from there. For the other company, I stuffed the PCBs and did everything else by hand, including drilling the enclosures.
Those are examples of truly hand made products.
Once again... IMHO-
Assembled, or the term assembled to me, is a PART OF built. What I mean is this:
You can assemble a wall. You can assemble cabinets. You can assemble a shower door.....
You can BUILD a HOUSE!
This debate has also taken place many times over at the pickup-makers forum: if I use a motor-based aparatus and electronic counter, and simply move the wire back and forth on the coil with my hand, is it "hand-wound"?
The problem is that we're discussing a multi-step fabrication process, any step of which could be mechanized or done by hand. The descriptor "hand-made" suggests that ALL steps were done by hand, when perhaps only some of them were. And if only some of them were, were they the most critical steps with respect to final product quality, or merely the ones that were cheaper to do by hand than to mechanize?
So, if everything else was mechanized in some fashion, and only one step could be "hand-made", what would be the most important to you:
- hand-painting the chassis?
- soldering the wiring?
- selecting components from the bin for consistent values
- soldering the components?
- etching the board?
- testing the pedal for quality control?
Quote from: R.G. on April 26, 2011, 11:30:49 AM
I regard the term "hand built" in advertising as being the equivalent of "I think I can hoodwink you into being happier with the product and any little oddities it has if I convince you it was carefully hand assembled by a bearded, gray Swiss watchmaker over a period of days."
I usually get the image of that bearded guy when I see the word "craft" used in marketing adspeak. And I think the pukiest of all the pukey ad words is "hand crafted".
"Crafted"- Okay, I get it. You mean like this?:
(http://www.craftideas.info/assets/images/Basic_Christmas_Craft_Ideas_-_Clay_Pot_Crafts_-_Clay_Pot_Santa_Claus.jpg)
:icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Mark Hammer on April 26, 2011, 12:01:26 PM
This debate has also taken place many times over at the pickup-makers forum: if I use a motor-based aparatus and electronic counter, and simply move the wire back and forth on the coil with my hand, is it "hand-wound"?
The problem is that we're discussing a multi-step fabrication process, any step of which could be mechanized or done by hand. The descriptor "hand-made" suggests that ALL steps were done by hand, when perhaps only some of them were. And if only some of them were, were they the most critical steps with respect to final product quality, or merely the ones that were cheaper to do by hand than to mechanize?
So, if everything else was mechanized in some fashion, and only one step could be "hand-made", what would be the most important to you:
- hand-painting the chassis?
- soldering the wiring?
- selecting components from the bin for consistent values
- soldering the components?
- etching the board?
- testing the pedal for quality control?
Those are good points.
It's kinda stupid though. Even if you only place/solder through hole pots and offboard wiring, on an SMD board in a CNCed enclosure that went through a silk screen machine, there's no fundamental reason that wouldn't count. I doubt there's very much on the market that couldn't try to assert a claim of being hand made.
A counter point:
If I solicit on this forum for someone to send me a broken Fuzz Face.... (granted this is a different scenario however, the parts of the whole were not built directly by my hands)
I then, open the box to see that a wire was burned up between the Input jack and the stomp switch...
I carefully and meticulously "hand wire" that particular connection and solder it into place....
Can I then call that a "hand assembled" pedal?
I ask because only a SMALL PORTION of the final product was done by hand. Would you take that into account when pricing it?
Quote from: Hides-His-Eyes on April 26, 2011, 01:14:36 PM
I doubt there's very much on the market that couldn't try to assert a claim of being hand made.
Exactly. So we agree then that claiming "hand built" in the ad copy is purely marketing mumbo-jumbo.
hand-exposed...:
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/puretube/handexposed4361.jpg)
hand-developed...:
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/puretube/handdevelop4362.jpg)
hand-agitated etching...:
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/puretube/handagitated4374.jpg)
hand--drilled...:
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/puretube/handrill4392.jpg)
hand-pre-tinned...:
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/puretube/handtinned4600.jpg)
hand-picked...:
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/puretube/handpicked4605.jpg)
and
hand-placed...:
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/puretube/handplaced4602.jpg)
hand-soldered...:
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/puretube/handsoldered4604.jpg)
hand-inspected...:
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/puretube/handinspected4408.jpg)
even the polarity-protection diode is
hand-selected...:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/latronax/handselect2464.jpg)
the final product then
hand-driven (DIY...)
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/puretube/handdriven4417.jpg)
to its destiny...
That wimpy diode couldn't protect a pedal from a gust of slightly-charged wind!
As someone who makes "hand-built" guitars, ostensibly for a living, it is something I've given a fair bit of thought to over the years. I use a lot of machines, and if I could afford one right now I'd probably end up using a CNC machine, and certainly a lot of "hand builders" of guitars are using CNC. The big difference, in my mind, is the size and the ethic of the shop. In our shop, one person builds each guitar, with a fanatical dedication to doing each step right, all adding up to a guitar which is the product of one persons labor. I have no real problem with small shops that have more than one guy on an instrument calling themselves hand built, as long as what they are doing is a work of real craftsmanship, and not mass produced factory production. If there is anybody doing one task, repetitively, day after day, with no variation, that isn't a "hand-built" instrument.
It is, though, a rather ephemeral concept, though, I must admit.
Gabriel
Only matters in principle to me, having no troubles with SMD.
Choosing to try to make SMD = "hand made" appears to be hammade in concept.
Quote from: Hides-His-Eyes on May 19, 2011, 05:52:33 PM
That wimpy diode couldn't protect a pedal from a gust of slightly-charged wind!
Which one of those diodes is too wimpy to protect against reverse polarity?
Certainly not the hand-selected one, that is routed in series with the powersupply... :icon_rolleyes:
I know some people make SMD stuff by hand so things can be made really small, but the product I had in my possesion when I started this thread has a PCB that is like 6"x4". There's no need for SMD components on something that big. Therefore I do not see it being manufactured in any other way than on a wave soldering machine, and "Handmade in the USA" on the pedal just bothers me as one who used to really make pedals completely by hand for a living using thru hole components on blank PCBs, drilling the enclosures myself, etc.
(http://www.diyguitarist.com/Images/JB2-2.jpg)
The real question is, JUMPERS? ON THE SWITCH?
I don't even
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 20, 2011, 11:29:45 AM
There's no need for SMD components on something that big. Therefore I do not see it being manufactured in any other way than on a wave soldering machine, and "Handmade in the USA" on the pedal just bothers me as one who used to really make pedals completely by hand for a living using thru hole components on blank PCBs, drilling the enclosures myself, etc.
I've had people tell me that having gotten into selling effects, they go to SMD to make it harder to copy.
I always try to keep a straight face when I hear that.
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 20, 2011, 11:29:45 AM
I know some people make SMD stuff by hand so things can be made really small, but the product I had in my possesion when I started this thread has a PCB that is like 6"x4". There's no need for SMD components on something that big. Therefore I do not see it being manufactured in any other way than on a wave soldering machine, and "Handmade in the USA" on the pedal just bothers me as one who used to really make pedals completely by hand for a living using thru hole components on blank PCBs, drilling the enclosures myself, etc.
Why use SMD on such a large board? Couple reasons:
1. Cost. SMD components tend to be less expensive than through hole.
2. Possibly already using SMD on another board so why stock both SMD and through hole. Easier to monitor inventory if only using one type.
Additionally SMD makes it easier to batch a build. The original SKRM modules we sold were hand built by me and I would put down a number of PCBs, use a solder paste rework syringe to put paste on each pad, place the components, put the boards in an IR oven to melt the solder paste, allow to cool then put in the through hole components. Completely hand built, no robots used. I now prefer SMD to through hole, I find it easier to work in.
Try SMD, after the learning curve I think you will find SMD makes cleaner board layouts, less drilling and faster building. Still hand made, just a different system.
Quote from: Hides-His-Eyes on May 20, 2011, 12:09:22 PM
The real question is, JUMPERS? ON THE SWITCH?
That's the hand-built part!
Quote from: octfrank on May 20, 2011, 01:04:02 PM
2. Possibly already using SMD on another board so why stock both SMD and through hole. Easier to monitor inventory if only using one type.
On a DIY level, though, I find this works the opposite way. I use through-hole components for breadboarding, so why should I get a second set of components for building?
It's not hand built unless you refined the ores.
:)
Quote from: CynicalMan on May 20, 2011, 07:50:41 PM
Quote from: octfrank on May 20, 2011, 01:04:02 PM
2. Possibly already using SMD on another board so why stock both SMD and through hole. Easier to monitor inventory if only using one type.
On a DIY level, though, I find this works the opposite way. I use through-hole components for breadboarding, so why should I get a second set of components for building?
I agree, you shouldn't. But the example shown is a commercial product and the question was why use SMD when there is a large board area available, I was just giving possible reasons why.
Quote from: R.G. on May 20, 2011, 07:52:32 PM
It's not hand built unless you refined the ores.
:)
And you also made the tools to dig out the ore! ;D
Quote from: octfrank on May 20, 2011, 08:08:57 PM
Quote from: R.G. on May 20, 2011, 07:52:32 PM
It's not hand built unless you refined the ores.
:)
And you also made the tools to dig out the ore! ;D
I agree! I actually *do* know at least one design that would smelt iron, copper, tin, etc. from ore that can be made from clay and wood - and of course iron ore and limestone. And some kind of animal skin. Need bellows - lost of air needed. :icon_lol:
I removed that picture of the PCB because I shouldn't have posted it in the first place. I probably shouldn't have posted this thread either, but it's too late now. The owner of the company that makes that product is pretty upset with me now and understandably so. Long story, but I can't say any more than that because it's a private matter.
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 20, 2011, 10:45:48 PM
I removed that picture of the PCB because I shouldn't have posted it in the first place. I probably shouldn't have posted this thread either, but it's too late now. The owner of the company that makes that product is pretty upset with me now and understandably so. Long story, but I can't say any more than that because it's a private matter.
I think it is fine you started the thread, many people claim things (hand-built, original design, etc.) that are not true. I take pride in my work like you do in yours and take pride in my SMD hand builds along with things like the FV-1...OK, the FV-1 is not hand built but I am proud of the design work Keith and I did.
Hi All,
I would make another difference between "hand built" (or so) and "robot / machinery produced" : the ability for maintenance or modification.
Often, when the unit has been "all built by hand", the job is easy. I wouldn't try to service or modify a BMP+TW with its SMD components - even if I saw some posts before that it is possible for some very skilled of you - or I would loose my time in an useless tentative. For me, these are not intended to be serviced, just to be trashed or recycled when faulty, like computer boards... Instead, servicing an old BMP is always possible.
A+!
A related question regarding "made in the US" and such. My friend bought a Little Big Muff which EHX says are built in NYC. I opened it up and it was a PCB with surface mount components and all. While it does not claim to be handmade, my friend says the "built in NYC" part just means they get pre-fabbed, pre-populated boards and parts from China and assemble the guts in NYC. Not trying to accuse EHX of anything because I honestly don't know what goes on. Any idea? I don't care either way, just curious.
It is possible that they assemble they pick and place the boards in NYC but I guess what you're ultimately being promised is that SOME of it was assembled in the US...
a cadillac escalade is %100 china but it is assembled in the usa. the ceo's are notorious for moving as much over seas as possible without loosing the made in the usa marketing gimmick they push on patriotic unknowing republicans from land locked southern states.
on topic of you posting pics... as long as it didn't violate your non-disclosure contract or expose anyone to be a liar, then he has nothing to be mad about. if he is involved in false advertising and he knows it, but never made you sign a non-disclosure, then he knows nothing about business or ethics. quite honestly, he shouldn't be a business man. he should be in marketing or politics.
If recall well, when I worked for Eterna and Rolex (Vallée de la Bienne, CH), to be "stamped" swiss-made, a watch must had 50% of their parts made in Switzerland and the assembly had to be done in Switzerland. It was true 10 years ago, but I don't know if this rule is valid again today.
A+!
Humans are only human, they make mistakes. Robots are robotic, they tend to do stuff the same, all the time.
Why would hand built be better?
Quote from: markeebee on May 21, 2011, 05:40:47 PM
Humans are only human, they make mistakes. Robots are robotic, they tend to do stuff the same, all the time.
Why would hand built be better?
Your question is correct, and valid - and almost certain to be ignored. I wrote up a couple articles on "hand wired" amps and effects back when I was writing the column for Premier Guitar. The whole question is - whose hands? An experienced, skilled, unhurried craftsman who loves the work, or a minimum wage (whatever the minimum wage is in the locality) teenager who desperately wants to be somewhere else?
The same people who talk about "made in China by near-slave-labor" will go on about how good "hand made" is, not sensing the antithetical juxtaposition.
"Hand-[anything]" means you get a variable result; some are good, some are less good. Machine made is much more consistent. Whether consistently good or consistently bad depends on who's running the machine.
But "hand made", "hand wired" and so on have been so glorified in advertising that people have a near-Pavlovian response to equating "hand-[anything]"="good".
It is rarely completely self explanatory.
The 'not' side is much easier to verify, something like SMD pretty much rules out the 'classic' definition of hand made.
It seems the common perception consensus, at least here, has pretty well established that an SMD unit, to put it in mild terms, is well outside the definition of 'hand made'.
Quote from: markeebee on May 21, 2011, 05:40:47 PM
Humans are only human, they make mistakes. Robots are robotic, they tend to do stuff the same, all the time.
as programmed by
humans.
*edit*
QuoteWhat Defines "Hand Built"?!
it's about motive, intention, love, pride and integrity.
Quote from: artifus on May 21, 2011, 07:29:54 PM
Quote from: markeebee on May 21, 2011, 05:40:47 PM
Humans are only human, they make mistakes. Robots are robotic, they tend to do stuff the same, all the time.
as programmed by humans.
Like I said, machine output is
consistently good or consistently bad. Implicit in your statement is that some humans are better than others at [whatever it is]. What you can do is use your skilled, caring, intelligent, thoughtful, skilled, motivated, proud, skilled people to much greater effect if they set up and run the machines.
Use your highly effective, skilled humans carefully. You don't have an infinite supply. :icon_biggrin:
QuoteQuoteWhat Defines "Hand Built"?!
it's about motive, intention, love, pride and integrity.
No amount of motive, intention, love, pride or integrity can take the place of knowledge, skill and experience. They are complementary. Good results require both. No amount of love, integrity, motivation, or pride will let an uneducated beginner do successful brain surgery or rocket design. Or soldering for that matter.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.
QuoteImplicit in your statement is that some humans are better than others at [whatever it is].
that was not my intention and i am unsure as to how you derived that implication from my statement.
i even get upset with claimed "hand built" pedals where the PCB fabrication is outsourced... regardless of SMD, through hole, or pre-populated.
there's a local (to me) builder called MI audio, and on the site their slogan is "beyond boutique"... when you look inside an see a nest of cheap wiring and a solder masked board you know they did not build it themselves - so they are right - they are not boutique, they are now beyond it.
little fact: boutique from memory is from french to mean a 'small shop'. IE a cake boutique where the work is specialty and on small scale. hence expensive....
I've just started a new batch of 100+ pedals. i'll do all of the work myself except for the powder coating, I leave that to a professional. i think that's still hand-made by me....
In Australia we actually have a LAW which is similar to the topic...
I can call me pedals "made in australia" because I designed it, built it, and consider it my product. HOWEVER I can not legally call it "australian made".... I didn't make those capacitors and resistors, and they were not made in this country. therefore my pedal isn't legally "australian made".
Quote from: darron on May 22, 2011, 05:28:52 AM
i even get upset with claimed "hand built" pedals where the PCB fabrication is outsourced... regardless of SMD, through hole, or pre-populated.
Yeah, there is one company that I know of that will go absolutely ballistic if you say that they're pedals aren't really handmade because the PCB is made on a wave soldering machine and then someone *possibly* solders on the pots and/or jacks. The only "hand made" part of that is someone putting the PCB into the enclosure and putting the knobs on it.
Oh well, it's all good. This shows me that I can't continue on in this business ventrure. I think the guy showed his true colors already, so I can avoid much bigger headaches in the future.
to me hand built / hard wired means it can be easily rewired and modified.
also not saying this company is slave labor but china certainly knows its buzz words.
http://www.kldguitar.com/TMB%2018K.htm
I keep telling people, China has a good background in business. If you demand the cheapest crap they can make, they will sell it to you. If you demand quality and negotiate an acceptable price for it, they will sell that to you as well. Equating "Chinese" with "poor quality" is the same mistake the USA made in the 1960s and 1970s when eveyone used "made in Japan" as equivalent to "poor quality".
Likewise, equating "hand made" or "hand wired" with "extra good" is a mistake. It's advertising copy, which must by law be factually true, but is made as misleading as the advertiser can make it and stay out of court.
QuoteWhat Defines "Hand Built"?!
Depends on your definition. ;)
(Good-ole circular logic.)
I build all my pedals weather there SMD or through hole the same way . I drill the enclosure and then I powder coat them with whatever colour i want, I design then make my own screen for printing any text or picture on the enclosure. I hand assemble a PCB that i designed (but the pcb itself i might get fabricated in china). The rest will then be all hand assembled and tested on a few different amps for any sound problems.
Now I didn't make the eclosure, Bare PCB or components, but does this mean there not hand made ? I think not, my concern is in quality so I would say my distinction really comes down to a different play on words. The difference being "Hand Made" and "Home Made" if you get what I mean.
I don't think how something is built be it by hand or machine matters at all. I think the only thing that matters is the level of quality assurance to make sure things are being done correctly.
Andrew
Quote from: The Tone God on May 22, 2011, 03:38:05 PM
I don't think how something is built be it by hand or machine matters at all. I think the only thing that matters is the level of quality assurance to make sure things are being done correctly.
Andrew
It matters to me if it says "hand made in the USA" on it and the only thing that is "hand made" is putting the PCB into the enclosure and putting the knobs on it. That to me that is a false statement. That's like 5% of the product being "hand made". I don't know, it just bothers me. :icon_confused:
It is amazing what the marketing guys seem to think they can get away with in the "information age". Looking at their (Janglebox) website, it appears their original run (the black ones) may have been done in MA, but their newer product is completely done overseas. Undoubtedly by pick and place machines in both cases, however.
In regards to the EHX comments, their boards are stuffed overseas and assembled in the U.S. Check out the documentary "Fuzz: The Sound that Revolutionized the World". In it, Mike Matthews gives a plant tour, rails against the "labor racketeers" of the late seventies, and proudly introduces all of his FEMALE assemblers, along with the country they each are from (Guatemala, Ecuador, Mexico, etc.)
Really good stuff.....
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 22, 2011, 04:13:35 PM
It matters to me if it says "hand made in the USA" on it and the only thing that is "hand made" is putting the PCB into the enclosure and putting the knobs on it. That to me that is a false statement. That's like 5% of the product being "hand made". I don't know, it just bothers me. :icon_confused:
Does it matter where it's made ? Are they charging a premium for that "feature" ? If not I don't care and I think the majority of buyers don't either. IMHO when I see terms like "hand built" and bouteek I think it really just suggesting that there is a properly trained human in the process to ensure final QA. I believe that how or where a product is built does not matter if the QA is being enforced. Everything else is jumping around that issue (i.e. SMD vs. through hole, machine vs hand, pcb vs. hand wired, etc.).
I understand that you may not like the term being used and that it maybe be technically miss leading but does it really matter in the end ? I just can't get bent out of shape over this kind of stuff since it so irrelevant yet wide spread to the point of being meaningless if it was relevant to begin with. It just strikes me as one of those things that manufactures put in their ad copy when they don't have any other real features to offer.
I guess its all "meh" to me.
Andrew
When was the last time someone on this forum (FSB is a different story) got bent up about ANOTHER tubescreamer claiming to be an "all new design"? ;)
It's all the same nonsense.
Quote from: The Tone God on May 22, 2011, 05:15:48 PM
IMHO when I see terms like "hand built" and bouteek I think it really just suggesting that there is a properly trained human in the process to ensure final QA. I believe that how or where a product is built does not matter if the QA is being enforced. Everything else is jumping around that issue (i.e. SMD vs. through hole, machine vs hand, pcb vs. hand wired, etc.).
Sorry, but I don't think lying is OK regardless of who does QC. It's a very black and white issue AFAIC.
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 22, 2011, 06:39:43 PM
Sorry, but I don't think lying is OK regardless of who does QC. It's a very black and white issue AFAIC.
"Lying" implies intent. I don't know the case details, but I'm sure that William Jefferson Clinton never lied - he believe all that stuff he said, even when he was saying under oath that "it depends on what your definition of 'is' is".
I've been forced at times in my life to deal with ... um, unusual personalities. :) There is a recognized personality disorder that not only says things that are verifiably different from objective fact, but **they come to believe what they said**. It makes them very difficult to deal with if you try to deal in facts.
Ha ha, good point R.G.
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 22, 2011, 06:39:43 PM
Sorry, but I don't think lying is OK regardless of who does QC. It's a very black and white issue AFAIC.
I can fully understand opening up a product faced with something that was obviously majority built by machines feeling that the concept of hand built was somewhat over stated. Perfectly normal.
It is a black and white issue but not in a way you would like and is part of the point I'm trying to make for the benefit of everyone. My understanding, atleast according to U.S. laws, is that all it takes to make the claim that something is "hand built" is for one or more of the manufacturing operation(s) be perform by a person or persons. By that definition all one has to do to be able to claim their product is hand built for example is have someone attach the knobs. It will be considered the same level as someone who explicitly builds everything from scratch. So you see it is black and white just not where most of us would put the line. This is why making the claim "hand built" is pretty much pointless and why I just can't really care about these terms. Its like "all natural", "organic", "lite", "free range", etc.
I care more about the final quality of the product. I don't care how it is built.
Andrew
Quote from: The Tone God on May 22, 2011, 08:24:20 PM
My understanding, atleast according to U.S. laws, is that all it takes to make the claim that something is "hand built" is for one or more of the manufacturing operation(s) be perform by a person or persons. By that definition all one has to do to be able to claim their product is hand built for example is have someone attach the knobs. It will be considered the same level as someone who explicitly builds everything from scratch. So you see it is black and white just not where most of us would put the line. This is why making the claim "hand built" is pretty much pointless and why I just can't really care about these terms. Its like "all natural", "organic", "lite", "free range", etc.
I know that's how the law may be, but I think it's stupid. I know that it doesn't matter to 99.5% of guitar players that buy a "hand made" product that really isn't, though. I'm that other 0.05% that does care. :icon_wink:
For me, when I hear "hand-built" in regard to pedals, my hope is that the end product will be more unique than mass manufactured offerings. Maybe a different than usual overdrive circuit with a unique paint scheme, or additional mods you won't find on a boss pedal. There is uniqueness.
Although it may be hand built, it's certainly not hand MADE. Did you cast the enclosure? Mix the paint? Build the switches yourself? No. So, hand assembled would be a better term maybe.
With that said, I realize it's not totally hand built if a board is assembled by a robot, but really, they do a better job at that most of the time. :) Granted, it seems unlikely your average small-scale boutique builder would have the resources or be willing to have boards assembled for them. Having un-filled PC boards made I could see though. More reliable and much easier than etching boards one by one.
Quote from: spargo on May 23, 2011, 02:41:10 AM
Although it may be hand built, it's certainly not hand MADE. Did you cast the enclosure? Mix the paint? Build the switches yourself? No. So, hand assembled would be a better term maybe.
That's really my point in all of this. "Hand Assembled" is a more accurate term. Well, sort of.
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 22, 2011, 09:59:01 PM
I know that's how the law may be, but I think it's stupid. I know that it doesn't matter to 99.5% of guitar players that buy a "hand made" product that really isn't, though. I'm that other 0.05% that does care. :icon_wink:
The other .045% is the grey area of consumers ;)
Quote from: Perrow on May 23, 2011, 11:58:26 AM
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 22, 2011, 09:59:01 PM
I know that's how the law may be, but I think it's stupid. I know that it doesn't matter to 99.5% of guitar players that buy a "hand made" product that really isn't, though. I'm that other 0.05% that does care. :icon_wink:
The other .045% is the grey area of consumers ;)
And the leftover 0.405% did not do so well in math. ;D
Quote from: spargo on May 23, 2011, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: Perrow on May 23, 2011, 11:58:26 AM
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 22, 2011, 09:59:01 PM
I know that's how the law may be, but I think it's stupid. I know that it doesn't matter to 99.5% of guitar players that buy a "hand made" product that really isn't, though. I'm that other 0.05% that does care. :icon_wink:
The other .045% is the grey area of consumers ;)
And the leftover 0.405% did not do so well in math. ;D
Doh!
Quote from: G. Hoffman on May 19, 2011, 05:54:57 PM
In our shop, one person builds each guitar, with a fanatical dedication to doing each step right, all adding up to a guitar which is the product of one persons labor. I have no real problem with small shops that have more than one guy on an instrument calling themselves hand built, as long as what they are doing is a work of real craftsmanship, and not mass produced factory production. If there is anybody doing one task, repetitively, day after day, with no variation, that isn't a "hand-built" instrument.
It is, though, a rather ephemeral concept, though, I must admit.
Gabriel
That's a different and probably more useful distinction IMO, but not "hand-built". Maybe if you can come up with an economical way to phrase "not built on an assembly line" you might have something.
If it's important for a customer to feel that only one person touched "his baby" throughout the whole construction process and was completely focused on that one widget coming out "right", that would be useful information. (Whether, as a manufacturing process, that is really more consistent, higher quality, or more efficient than an assembly line, I would have no idea.)
Quote from: DougH on May 24, 2011, 07:57:03 AM
Maybe if you can come up with an economical way to phrase "not built on an assembly line" you might have something.
Ohh ooh, I know.
Boutique.Do I have something?
Quote from: DougH on May 24, 2011, 07:57:03 AM
If it's important for a customer to feel that only one person touched "his baby" throughout the whole construction process and was completely focused on that one widget coming out "right", that would be useful information.
(Whether, as a manufacturing process, that is really more consistent, higher quality, or more efficient than an assembly line, I would have no idea.)
This made me think a bit. In making guitars, arguably acoustic guitars more than electrics, hand work does matter, because the materials are so variable. Having a human with skill and experience in selecting and tuning each piece can make a difference.
Contrast that to electronic parts, where a good deal of effort on the part of some very smart people over a period of about a century now has been applied to making the parts as consistent and non-varying as they can be. As a thought experiment, how much different can a circuit sound if you hand-select between the 1K resistors in a bin? At most it will be the resistor tolerance as mapped onto the human hearing sensitivities. For many circuits, it will make little or no difference. And the idea of "hand built" digital circuits gets very close to absurd.
What advertisers want you to hear when they say "hand built" is "built with individually selected parts, each one chosen for its contribution to the whole result, and tuned by a skilled, experienced human." The fallacy hidden inside that, even if it's literally true, is that for this to be good, there must be enough variation in the parts and processes to make a difference. If the variation is not there, or not in ways that matter to the final result, then no amount of selection will make a difference, other than in the mind of the beholder, and that being different in each beholder.
Case in point: solder joints. Have you read advertising copy about "hand soldered", perhaps with "silver bearing solder"? Do you really think you can hear a difference in an electrical connection made by hand soldering (above a minimal level of making a decent joint) over a properly set up wave soldered joint, all other things being equal? And can you *hear* that there is 2% silver in the solder? If you do, I really, really, really want you as a customer... :icon_lol:
OK, I guess that's not true for me personally, or I'd keep my mouth shut on issues like this. I can't bring myself to do that.
In a perverse way, responding well to outrageous or nonsensical claims in advertising is a process where the customer selects themself as an easy mark. All other things being equal, slightly manipulative sellers *would* like customers who perceive value where there is arguably none. If you advertise in a manner that pulls in that set of customers, you can sell them ... er, let's just say "wild claims and not much real value". :icon_wink: Hmm. It strikes me that there must be some people who are selling basically the same stuff under different labels, with different paint jobs but everything else the same, to different customer sets, but different advertising claims. The customers select which set of advertising they like better and prefer to believe.
But I'm wandering.
For "hand selected/built/assembled/yada/yada" to have any real advantage, the materials and processes must have enough variation so that the end result *can* be radically different, outside the mind of the person reading the advertising.
There is a sucker born every minute. All they need is to hear the right buzz word(s) before they shell out the dough.
Quote from: R.G. on May 24, 2011, 10:52:30 AM
In making guitars, arguably acoustic guitars more than electrics, hand work does matter, because the materials are so variable. Having a human with skill and experience in selecting and tuning each piece can make a difference.
Contrast that to electronic parts, where a good deal of effort on the part of some very smart people over a period of about a century now has been applied to making the parts as consistent and non-varying as they can be. As a thought experiment, how much different can a circuit sound if you hand-select between the 1K resistors in a bin? At most it will be the resistor tolerance as mapped onto the human hearing sensitivities. For many circuits, it will make little or no difference. And the idea of "hand built" digital circuits gets very close to absurd.
That's a good point. The "bricks" you build with when building a guitar are much more variable by definition than electronic parts - esp when dealing with lo-fi audio spectrum stuff which is pretty forgiving of some variability.
And any perceived sonic advantage of a "hand-built" digital circuit is not "very close" to absurd, it
is absurd. :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: R.G. on May 24, 2011, 10:52:30 AM
In a perverse way, responding well to outrageous or nonsensical claims in advertising is a process where the customer selects themself as an easy mark. All other things being equal, slightly manipulative sellers *would* like customers who perceive value where there is arguably none. If you advertise in a manner that pulls in that set of customers, you can sell them ... er, let's just say "wild claims and not much real value". :icon_wink:
I think that's the most succinct description of the boutique audio cable industry that I've ever read... :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: DougH on May 24, 2011, 12:18:51 PM
Quote from: R.G. on May 24, 2011, 10:52:30 AM
In a perverse way, responding well to outrageous or nonsensical claims in advertising is a process where the customer selects themself as an easy mark. All other things being equal, slightly manipulative sellers *would* like customers who perceive value where there is arguably none. If you advertise in a manner that pulls in that set of customers, you can sell them ... er, let's just say "wild claims and not much real value". :icon_wink:
I think that's the most succinct description of the boutique audio cable industry that I've ever read... :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
That's a whole other subject! :icon_lol:
I remember seeing a vacuum cleaner manufacturer, I believe it was Melee, building units using the model of having a single person assemble the unit completely from start to finish. They found the failure rate was much lower verse having a set of individuals who performs only one step in the process. So something could be said about having a single individual assemble a unit from scratch. I still think QA is the important thing.
I had a friendly conversation awhile ago with a fairly well known builder. They were showing off their drill press that they use to drill their boxes and how they were handmade as some point of pride. I noticed the finish on the holes was alittle rough so I made some friendly suggestions to improve the quality (change the bit type / coating, different lube, spindle speed, etc.). They implied I didn't know what I was talking about that the holes were the best that can be done and they have been building stuff for a few years that was just fine. I politely replied that I have many years of machining experience and the finish on the holes were poor when compared to the holes I make with my CNC mill and I'm trying to give them the benefit of my years of experience. At that point they claimed there was no way the holes made by a CNC mill will ever better then handmade holes. I decided to let the issue drop at that point as I saw it would be pointless to discuss any further with their view already skewed.
I guess the point of the story I'm trying to make is that the "handmade is better" line of thinking is another myth held on to not just by buyers but sometimes builders.
While I pointed out the legal definition of "hand made" I know us here would have a different definition so the points I was dancing around earlier was:
1. Where is the line when a product stops being "hand made" ?
2. Does it really matter ? Is there a measurable loss when that point is crossed ?
I know these are going to be matters of personal opinion but it would interesting none the less.
IMHO just because something is handmade does not mean it is better. There are steps that can be done better by machine.
Andrew
Just for the record, nowhere did I say that hand made was better. I'm just pointing out that a wave soldered PCB with 100% SMD components and every single component being PCB mounted is not hand made, or hand crafted. The only thing "hand made" about that is soldering the pots to the PCB and maybe the 3PDT switches, too. This is not a QC issue AFAIAC, it's the proper use of terms and accurately representing a product, not lying about it. But apparently the law in this case gives people a license to do whatever the hell they want and call it "hand made". Sorry, but I think that is a real crock of hot stinking horse manure.
On top of that, it's even worse if the manufacturer claims that it was built in the USA and it really wasn't. But that's a whole other issue. So does no one care if a product was basically made in China but it says "Made In The USA" on it? It would bother me a lot, because it's a bold faced lie.
Weather or not something is hand made or machine made is one thing but, just as important an issue also needs addressing and that's some people don't know how to use the tools at their disposal, I have honestly seen people try and drill holes in steel with a 1" wood cutting flat bit. I have also seen people use drill bits that are so blunt that they try and burn there way through a soft aluminium enclosure.
I think the point I am trying to make is that when the term "hand made" is used it is usually for the reason to tell people that whatever it is there selling is of a high quality craft manship (not always case).
Now a correctly set up CNC drill can do a better job at nicer drilled holes than some bloke with a handheld drill and blunt bit. On the other hand a person who knows how to use a hand held drill and correct bits can make a better job than an idiot on a cnc machine.
Paul you posted as I was writing this reply, Yes i also realized that the topic has slightly strayed into quality rather than "hand made or not handmade debate" In terms of hand made , in reality in this day and age i don't think there is a single thing that can be described as 100% hand made. Just as an example if any electronic circuit has a semiconductor in it then a machine made it . Who made the silicon ??
It would be more accurate to actually print on an enclosure "God Made" Now that would cause some debate wouldn't it.
Quote from: Ice-9 on May 24, 2011, 05:35:38 PM
It would be more accurate to actually print on an enclosure "God Made" Now that would cause some debate wouldn't it.
Oh, no.
Oh, no.
Now we're going to see advertising saying "God made this pedal. You can't do better than that..."
:icon_lol:
So...what is it then ?
Sweet Dreams are made of these.
What's better?: the guy who doesn't know what he's sellin' or the guy who doesn't know what he's buyin'...it can be very hard to tell sometimes.
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 24, 2011, 05:25:43 PM
Just for the record, nowhere did I say that hand made was better. I'm just pointing out that a wave soldered PCB with 100% SMD components and every single component being PCB mounted is not hand made, or hand crafted. The only thing "hand made" about that is soldering the pots to the PCB and maybe the 3PDT switches, too. This is not a QC issue AFAIAC, it's the proper use of terms and accurately representing a product, not lying about it. But apparently the law in this case gives people a license to do whatever the hell they want and call it "hand made". Sorry, but I think that is a real crock of hot stinking horse manure.
On top of that, it's even worse if the manufacturer claims that it was built in the USA and it really wasn't. But that's a whole other issue. So does no one care if a product was basically made in China but it says "Made In The USA" on it? It would bother me a lot, because it's a bold faced lie.
Sorry I wasn't implying you were making that claim. Just a general observation on the topic by others.
Somebody mention that in EU that you have to have the parts made in the EU to claim it as "Made in EU". I know in Canada recently the laws have changed in a similar manner. You cannot claim something is "Made in Canada" unless the product and a certain percentage (90% ?) of the components that make up the product are made in Canada. The U.S. has a different standard. I think it just need to be finally assembled in the U.S. to be labelled "Made in U.S." I forget the standard but I don't think it will change for awhile as it would make it difficult for certain groups to "Buy amerikan!"
I know Paul is just dealing with the claim issue of labelling something "handmade" and U.S. made when its not really in the truest spirit of those claims. I'm just playing The Tone Devil's advocate here with the "Does it matter" point. I prefer to just avoid the issue by not stating the country of manufacture. Saves alot of headaches.
Quote from: Ice-9 on May 24, 2011, 05:35:38 PM
Weather or not something is hand made or machine made is one thing but, just as important an issue also needs addressing and that's some people don't know how to use the tools at their disposal, I have honestly seen people try and drill holes in steel with a 1" wood cutting flat bit. I have also seen people use drill bits that are so blunt that they try and burn there way through a soft aluminium enclosure.
I think the point I am trying to make is that when the term "hand made" is used it is usually for the reason to tell people that whatever it is there selling is of a high quality craft manship (not always case).
Now a correctly set up CNC drill can do a better job at nicer drilled holes than some bloke with a handheld drill and blunt bit. On the other hand a person who knows how to use a hand held drill and correct bits can make a better job than an idiot on a cnc machine.
Paul you posted as I was writing this reply, Yes i also realized that the topic has slightly strayed into quality rather than "hand made or not handmade debate" In terms of hand made , in reality in this day and age i don't think there is a single thing that can be described as 100% hand made. Just as an example if any electronic circuit has a semiconductor in it then a machine made it . Who made the silicon ??
I completely agree that either a machine or a person can do a horrible job. In either case the QA would initially be enforced by the machinist which is sort of where I'm going with the "whats the line where something stops being hand built ?" and "Does it matter ?"
You have a guy with a hand drill. That is hand made. What about if they use a drilling jig, hand made ? Then he decides to use a drill press, still hand made ? What about going to a manual mill, still hand made ? What about going to a mill with a power feed, still hand made ? What about going to a mill with computer controlled power feed (i.e. CNC), still hand made ? Where is the line where it stops being hand made ? I argue that hand made is pointless. Its the QA that matters. In this case the QA is being done by the machinist. Well written gcode and a properly maintained machine will do as well as a person with a hand drill but so can a person with a drill do as well as the machine. Its still the skill of the machinist which is where I would say the "hand made" part is. That human touch.
Same with soldering. I have see lousy solder jobs done by hand and lousy wave soldering work. The QA is not there. There needs to be a human touch be it someone who is an experienced solder or the know how to program the wave solder cycle. The machine is just a tool.
Andrew
It's all good Tone God. It is kind of a circular "argument", I know. :icon_wink:
Paul, I, for one, do care. Where to draw the line is not exactly as easy as it sounds, unfortunately. And, it evolves overtime.
This is a great discussion and reminds me of some history and a revolution in gunsmithing begun by Thomas Jefferson and Eli Whitney. It took most of the early 19th century before hand cast, hand fitted, and hand assembled rifle (musket actually) components requiring the skill of a gunsmith were replaced by interchangeable parts that could be produced by "unskilled" labor. Part of the story was the disbelief that the untrained worker (now to include the machine) could produce anything superior to the skilled artisan. At that time, as today, there were, of course, many commercial, ego, and political interests involved, and, not to denigrate the good name of Mr. Whitney, it seems that he played a bit of this game himself. There were/are plenty of both honest men and charlatans then as now - though we may think that there are more of the latter than the former. Tone God's anecdote does, however, lend itself to the maxim of Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity."
For myself, I tend to look askance at certain claims as Paul seems to be doing. The terms "hand made," "organic," "new and improved," etc., however, have been so overused as to not connote much. So - caveat emptor or "don't buy a pig in a poke." I would generally consider that "hand made" items would in practice imply one or more of the following: actual hand making of most of the item, use of higher quality components that may or may not mean a better product, greater variation in quality, has some qualities of a "work of art," or some variation on the theme.
Whether this results in a quantitatively better product is, to paraphrase R.G., what the end user gets to decide when they choose what they like better and/or prefer to believe.
As my pappy used to say, "McDonalds is guaranteed mediocrity." One way to interpret this is that we see the BigMac not as a bad burger but that it will be more or less the same in Buffalo as in Wichita, which is a good thing when all you want is a burger and fries but not when you are looking for variety. There is more than one competitor, chains and locals (i.e., boutiques), that touts its particular burger's handcraftedness. What that actually means in fact is anyone's guess, as we see here. Boutique, hand made pedals can be just as crappy as they can be really good and may or may not be truly "Made By Hand" to some significant degree, which I do get as your point.
Cheers.
I agree that the heart of this issue is that "hand made" doesn't really mean anything one way or another anymore, and has become just another generic ad-phrase. I also agree with Andrew that in the end, it doesn't really matter. I'll go further and say, as a consumer it really doesn't matter to me much where or how something is made. What matters is whether it sounds the way I expect, performs reliably and consistently, and lasts a reasonable amount of time before it has to be replaced, at a reasonable price. That's all I really care about.
I wish more builders would try to educate consumers about what they should care about, rather than bullsh!tting them with a bunch of jingoistic nonsense. I think it's common sense and in general consumers do really know what's important about a product. But they get distracted with a lot of ephemera that plays on their insecurities and makes them feel warm & fuzzy but has zero to do with how useful the product really is to begin with. It seems to me that builders who engage in this kind of behavior would much rather have a bunch of stupid and ignorant customers than a bunch of smart ones. For anyone who is in this beyond "fly by night" status, there's something about it that just bugs me.
Quote from: DougH on May 26, 2011, 02:16:29 PM
It seems to me that builders who engage in this kind of behavior would much rather have a bunch of stupid and ignorant customers than a bunch of smart ones.
Although it has been proven that he never REALLY said it..... PT Barnum was credited with saying:
"There's a sucker born every minute!"
I am sure that PT Barnum would rather have an ignorant customer that had no knowledge of his product and kept PAYING to come back than a smart one that payed ONLY ONCE and never returned.
Basically, I agree with Doug that it is very "decietful" to prey on an ignorant consumer HOWEVER, that is what some businesses cater towards and more often than not.... they are the ones that are the most sucessful ::)
Someone could educate buyers. Grab guts photos of as many boutique pedals you can find and create an anonymous new webpage / blog to show them all side by side. Rank them by a "hand built" score, noting where SMD, fab boards, or any other mechanizations can be observed. Probably not worth the effort, and the anger or legal jeopardy that could result. Besides, this is really just a mojo score, since being *more* hand-made and tells you nothing about the build quality/reliability of a pedal, or even how good (or innovative) the design is.
Not trying to derail this thread, but it would be nice to have a gut shot gallery somewhere with commentary on the reliability of various pedals. Beavis already has such a gallery at http://www.beavisaudio.com/gg/ but comments on them from pedal builders would probably be useful to non-geeks.
Cool link. Thanks!
Although I understand the original post about manufacturer "A" claiming there product is hand made, when in fact the individual bits are farmed out to a production line and then hand assembled by someone else. The problem of hand made arises through a production transition when someone starts off in this line of job the product is pretty much hand made because there usually knocked up one by one as people buy the pedals.
Now as Pedal "A "gets a bit of a reputation, word gets round and more people want to buy it. When you only need to build one a week it is uneconomical to go and order a screen printed enclosure and a solder flowed thru hole or SMD PCB, so in the early days "hand made" is a great advertising bonus because it is hand made . Six months or more down the line when the bloke sitting in his workshop at home can't keep up with how many orders he gets, it now becomes a thought that he could get all his PCB's factory made and populated for less cost than he can buy the components for and most likely better quality and saves a massive time in making them himself.
At this point the wording "hand Made" should be removed from the product of course but the maker who has received a nice reputation from his hand made stuff really would like to keep that kudos and this happens as he doesn't want lose that so doesn't remove the advertising blurb, but he wrongly considers this OK as he hand solders some wires onto the pots etc.
There is one maker I am aware of that has introduced his pedals at a cheaper price and they are advertised as the PCB versions as opposed to hand wired/made. You can bet your bottom dollar he hasn't introduced these to lower the price of each unit, I would say there being made like this because they have become popular and he can't make them quick enough in the garage so it has become economically viable to have them manufactured. To his credit he has advertised them as such and the way he has done it also has added to kudos of his still available hand made pedals. Read the blurb to see what i mean.
On a different note you can debate too much about this hand made thing. For instance if I design my own PCB etch it and drill it, is it home made? I did design, etch and drill it. So YES, I didn't laminate the fibreglass into a 1.6mm flat sheet and add a nice copper layer to it, that was done entirely on a production machine. So NO.
Trading laws of each country aside, there is a line of distinction between hand made, hand build, hand assembled and factory made.
Hand Built...
Should be HAND ASSEMBLED :-\
Quote from: darron on May 22, 2011, 05:28:52 AM
i even get upset with claimed "hand built" pedals where the PCB fabrication is outsourced... regardless of SMD, through hole, or pre-populated.
there's a local (to me) builder called MI audio, and on the site their slogan is "beyond boutique"... when you look inside an see a nest of cheap wiring and a solder masked board you know they did not build it themselves - so they are right - they are not boutique, they are now beyond it.
little fact: boutique from memory is from french to mean a 'small shop'. IE a cake boutique where the work is specialty and on small scale. hence expensive....
I've just started a new batch of 100+ pedals. i'll do all of the work myself except for the powder coating, I leave that to a professional. i think that's still hand-made by me....
In Australia we actually have a LAW which is similar to the topic...
I can call me pedals "made in australia" because I designed it, built it, and consider it my product. HOWEVER I can not legally call it "australian made".... I didn't make those capacitors and resistors, and they were not made in this country. therefore my pedal isn't legally "australian made".
Even Devi is getting some fabrication done now, and if you don't call her gear boutique what is? ???
Business gets bigger = need to find more efficient method of building.
And Darron(Dazatronix guy), pretty poor effort sh*t canning a fellow Aussie builder..... :icon_neutral:
I was told at some time that the term "hand selected" as used in descriptions like "hand selected 12ax7 tube" means only that someone physically picked the tube up and put it in the socket... not what images the mind conjures up of someone carefully testing dozens of tubes to find the right one for each unit. But thats what marketing is all about, to make you feel good about wanting to buy a product.
hey there Jamo. i see it's your fist post so welcome to the forum. good to open up an old can of worms.
well, as went over, boutique has implications that something is done as specialty "small" work - of course often at enormous prices because it is specialised and there is no setup to make suck things cheaply.
when a company finds themselves in a position to be able to expand it's a great thing. it means people are liking the product/service they offer. at a point they can decide to save a buck and outsource their labour. buyers of a 'boutique' pedal usually like to buy the actual 'labour' with the pedal, knowing that the attention was given by the person who should be caring about it the most, the end developer. some
business-people would enjoy reselling labour. some electronics nuts get off on the labour itself. either way will sound the same and probably be as reliable.
if you want to fabricate boards and have slap on hookups that can save the most pain-in-the-arse task. use alright hardware and you've maximised profit. you can start getting something out in numbers easier, and get costs down to the end buyer and the middle-man.
if something looks like it was just 'assembled' then it probably was.
Quote from: Jamo on September 03, 2011, 09:30:09 AM
And Darron(Dazatronix guy), pretty poor effort sh*t canning a fellow Aussie builder..... :icon_neutral:
it's late, but i'll try to make a coherent ramble.
who said anything about shhhhh l t canning anybody? some of their gear has some great reputation.
"beyond boutique" is ironic in context of our discussion. it follows to show the transition moving from boutique at one point to something that is no longer. people don't initially make things by hand because it's best, they do it by hand because it's the easiest way in the beginning.
Quote from: Jamo on September 03, 2011, 09:30:09 AMpoor effort
since you bring it up now, it certainly tickles me the wrong way. they need to rethink their marketing. it's not honest. all things are subjective i suppose though, except that which is true by definition alone (IE Pi)
actually, the man just isn't honest himself. last i met him, he laughed off the fact that he had to let his aussie staff go at a stage where he was a little too ambitions. i have first hand experience as an ex-employee (elsewhere) that an honest employer doesn't laugh such things off when these things happen. i digress. the best thing to take away is that ambiton is something i admire highly and that laughter can be a good medicine.
Quote from: Jamo on September 03, 2011, 09:30:09 AMfellow Aussie
re: 'aussie'. i don't like supporting people just because they are like you, or having less favour because they are not. that's how things like racism and religious outcasting works. the net and the people using it make our world a little wider than that. because of Aron there is a great collaboration of minds helping each other, and very kindly. you could design something (maybe with help too?), share it, and then have someone across the world building it the next morning and giving you feedback on it.
you'll know of the people around here that are really doing things amazing. and some not as much. they come from all parts of the globe but i bet a lot of their 'newer' ideas were strongly assisted by tiny snips of research presented right here, and over there.
back onto subjectivism. when you speak to the older guys in electronics, who were there for the birth of the semiconductor for example, you can find they have a certain mind-set. you get their vibe where in electronics if something isn't done the best way then it was done incorrectly. "expand?"
Quote from: Jamo on September 03, 2011, 09:30:09 AMAussie builder
well. that's it, they are an Aussie '
builder'. outside of what goes on around here. i'm not in the same league with 'builders' so it's far from fellow. i have a hobby business because i i enjoy it. i'm not trying to find every way i can to make a buck like a business would.
arg! 12:33am
it's a controversial thread. might need expanding with some new brain juice, or let it die again.
sorry if i said anything too touchy or out of line. tell me if i am out of line.
Have we actually met Darron?
Quote from: michael_ibrahim on September 03, 2011, 06:53:51 PM
Have we actually met Darron?
melbourne amplest before last. everyone was setup a bit more elaborately that year.
jumping over to the other forum now :S
Really? I don't recall. And what was the time before that? You mentioned 'last time'.
I'm just trying to clarify your potentially defamatory public claim,... you're saying that the first time we met, I pull you aside and said something like,... "i'm so big i'll fire my staff,... mu ha hahahahaha"
Just trying to clarify.
last, and first. it's easy to remember that amp fest, Achilles brought a hot lady friend in one of his tshirts (:
Quote from: michael_ibrahim on September 03, 2011, 08:02:09 PM
clarify your potentially defamatory public claim
yes, i understand that. you didn't have a pitchfork and follow with "muhahah" maybe laughter is your way of dealing with something bad? if that's the case then someone should never 'come down' on someone for that.
i'll say this elsewhere too: someone just emailed me and suggested the hit is that maybe people shouldn't name the actual names. i must have been particularly annoyed that night for reasons exactly in this thread. so i'm a bit sorry about that, though if you need to
defend something then it will be very good discussion for this thread actually. i'm keenly interested and know of others who are. i know you'll step up and say what good things need to be said. if it's anything nasty then PM or email me so that the moderators don't step in and get angry.
Wow...
I never knew how cut-throat, gossip-laden, and down right nasty it can get building little electronic boxes full of resistors, capacitors, and semiconductors :o
Relax guys, there are MUCH MORE serious matters in the world!
Make LOVE, not WAR :icon_cool:
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on September 03, 2011, 08:17:15 PM
Wow...
I never knew how cut-throat, gossip-laden, and down right nasty it can get building little electronic boxes full of resistors, capacitors, and semiconductors :o
Relax guys, there are MUCH MORE serious matters in the world!
Make LOVE, not WAR :icon_cool:
well that's right. sometimes its easy to be offended though and that needs consideration
someone once said to me "it's just hooking wires and bits up, isn't it?"
"... well... yeah"
michael, you could contribute greatly in this thread about what constitutes a real boutique pedal with your experience with "joyo pedals" ? i'm sure there's lots to be said actually...
the original thread was about false claims - generally speaking, nothing to do with MI until page 5.
some are claims on the wrong side of a thin line, and some are just wrong.
the "beyond boutique" is ironic to the originally discussion, unintentionally it can show that at some point a pedal becomes good enough that it has to leave the boutique nest completely. i just didn't beat around the bush about it. i wish the world could be open, but i know it can't happen.
it sounds nasty, but i'm trying to say that you can use cheap wire (as i put it, which make it look attacking, but take it LITERALLY. as contrary to cloth wire, teflon, magic voodoo gold) and slap something together. it won't sound different in this case! functionality will be exactly the same.
you know michael, you say i don't like you, but really read over what you quoted. take it honestly and literally and there's nothing defaming that i've said there...
i don't like things you've said, and that's personal and not appropriate here.
now i have to post this in the other tread to defend myself. COPY+PASTE warning.
Is this one of those multi-forum slap sessions?? ::)
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on September 03, 2011, 09:47:39 PM
Is this one of those multi-forum slap sessions?? ::)
both cheeks are red. yes.
keep on the original track. there's another forum where it's steered in a different direction away from this topic now, so that should be sorted i think.
hope you guys are getting a kick out a bit of controversy at least.
i suppose it's very easy to get angry, frustrated etc. people here are here because they are enthusiasts! of course they should be passionate. i am. and so was Paul back in page 1!
This is the first test of a new PCB. For production, we use a syringe to place solder paste on all pads. Then we hand place the components and reflow the solder paste using a combination of convection and a hand held hot air tool, similar to the now obsolete Hakko 852.
As sales grow, we will have the boards done with pick and place, which is potentially more reliable than hand soldering. There is a good electronics assembly shop in our home city.
We currently jig drill the pedal enclosures. It is mindless and boring work, but the jig makes it more accurate than hand marking. I have searched for a small engineering company that can CNC drill the enclosures, but, so far, even the small shops are only interested in doing multi thousand quantities.
For the moment, we feel quite justified in calling our products hand made.
Peter.
Would you like me to respond?
I had to watch that video twice, no, 3 times, there was some real emotion in that guitar track.
Haven't heard anything like that for a long time...thanks!
Quote from: ClinchFX on September 04, 2011, 02:13:52 AM
This is the first test of a new PCB. For production, we use a syringe to place solder paste on all pads. Then we hand place the components and reflow the solder paste using a combination of convection and a hand held hot air tool, similar to the now obsolete Hakko 852.
+1 add to favourites and like
Quote from: Ronan on September 05, 2011, 04:27:27 AM
I had to watch that video twice, no, 3 times, there was some real emotion in that guitar track.
Haven't heard anything like that for a long time...thanks!
Thanks, I've passed your comment on to the young guy who played it.
Quote from: ClinchFX on September 04, 2011, 02:13:52 AM
This is the first test of a new PCB. For production, we use a syringe to place solder paste on all pads. Then we hand place the components and reflow the solder paste using a combination of convection and a hand held hot air tool, similar to the now obsolete Hakko 852.
As sales grow, we will have the boards done with pick and place, which is potentially more reliable than hand soldering. There is a good electronics assembly shop in our home city.
We currently jig drill the pedal enclosures. It is mindless and boring work, but the jig makes it more accurate than hand marking. I have searched for a small engineering company that can CNC drill the enclosures, but, so far, even the small shops are only interested in doing multi thousand quantities.
For the moment, we feel quite justified in calling our products hand made.
That's different than having something made completely by machines in China but having "handmade in the USA" printed onto the product. That's basically a big lie.
Quote from: ClinchFX on September 04, 2011, 02:13:52 AM
This is the first test of a new PCB. For production, we use a syringe to place solder paste on all pads. Then we hand place the components and reflow the solder paste using a combination of convection and a hand held hot air tool, similar to the now obsolete Hakko 852.
As sales grow, we will have the boards done with pick and place, which is potentially more reliable than hand soldering. There is a good electronics assembly shop in our home city.
We currently jig drill the pedal enclosures. It is mindless and boring work, but the jig makes it more accurate than hand marking. I have searched for a small engineering company that can CNC drill the enclosures, but, so far, even the small shops are only interested in doing multi thousand quantities.
For the moment, we feel quite justified in calling our products hand made, Or handbuild rather.
Peter.
Thats pretty much how i make my own SMD boards, I consider that handmade.
another one post member?
welcome to the forum Causa Sui (: