(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/ludwig-phase-ii-bottom-board.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/ludwig-phase-ii-top-pcb.jpg)
these are the actual schem and layout for the ludwig phase II guitar-synthesizer interface.
fire up the irons... i plan on trying to build one, had one as a kid, traded it for a vox ac50 and a half a lid of grass about 1979 and have kicked myself in the ass ever since.
wow...looks like an epic build!... :icon_eek:
http://matrixsynth.blogspot.com/2009/09/ludwig-phase-ii-guitar-synthesizer.html
ayyy, i know...my brain hurts already...but it's gotta be done!!!
if we can clone it, then....we can have it!!!....my precious!!!! ;P
lol
You didn't read about that at geofex, from 2004, where I used a much less clear version and some board pics to put them together?
It's interesting, but much too complicated for what it does. I think I posted some stuff here about the tracings. Try a search.
hi rg, that was actually how i first found geofex...i googled, and learned...and still am.
i know it may seem like a lot of hype until you play thru one...they are a pretty humbling experience, and can do stuff no other effect device i ever have used can do.
i'll try a search, thanks for the tip!!
i do hope to get my chops together enough to try a build...don't need the fancy lighted colour changing switches, but i'd try to get the rest as close as i could.
gonna start researching parts, and see what happens. may take a while, but if they're out there, i'll find them.
it really doesn't look quite as complex as it seemed 30 some odd years ago. with mine, the big thing was one of the footswitches broke, and was impossible to replace back then, that's why i traded it off...but then, back in the day, nobody really seemed to think they were worth anything.
i missed one by minutes at a hole in the wall music store about 12 years ago...the guy at the store turned it down, cuz he didn't know what it was...
50 bux, dude.. my timing always HAS been...ummm...impeccable..
I am loathe to admit this, but I built it on a breadboard one summer...it never came anywhere near to working. This pedal was a passion of mine for many years before I gave it up and realized that there are more interesting things in life and easier pedals to build (ANY other pedal is easier than this beast). What's missing from the schematic are the switch connections. Lots of switch connections. Someone on this board (or a much earlier version of it) was kind enough to trace out their switch connections and send the information to me years ago. I really need to find that documentation again as so many people are gaining interest in this beast again.
MAN, i hope ya can find that...cuz that really is the missing link to getting it up and running!!!
but..here's the thing...if memory serves, it had 4pdt switches...that was the nitemare that made them irreparable and unreplaceable.
but...pretty sure that where there's a will, there's a way...perhaps switch it electronically with more readily available switches.
i got faith in rg in particular...if it can be done, i figure he'll figure it out!!
Quote from: Ry on May 08, 2011, 03:14:45 PM
I am loathe to admit this, but I built it on a breadboard one summer...it never came anywhere near to working. This pedal was a passion of mine for many years before I gave it up and realized that there are more interesting things in life and easier pedals to build (ANY other pedal is easier than this beast). What's missing from the schematic are the switch connections. Lots of switch connections. Someone on this board (or a much earlier version of it) was kind enough to trace out their switch connections and send the information to me years ago. I really need to find that documentation again as so many people are gaining interest in this beast again.
As nearly as I can remember from 6-7 years ago, the interconnections to switches and controls were the big place where I did all I could and made intelligent ( :D ) guesses about the wiring. Just getting the circuits on the boards is pretty tame.
yah, looking at the layout doesn't really seem too bad. i'd imagine that outside of the footswitches, some of the switch wiring could be made easier by leaving out the circuitry associated with changing the colours of the switches...they DID look cool, but who does that much acid anymore? :icon_mrgreen:
i bet it could be done. i really would love to lay this out on veroboard (being too lame still to attempt making the proper pcb).
as i recall, (i did open mine and look at it) there's really not all that much...a couple boards, maybe 5x7 inches, if that.
when i get back later, i'll try and search for the other posts you made, rg, see if i can tie everything into this thread so maybe between a couple of us we can come up with a working schematic and/or layout.
to me, at least, it'd be worth it....i'll never be able to afford the real mccoy in this life, if i could even find one!
but a workalike would be pretty awesome.
the combination of the foot controlled phaser/wah and distortion/fuzz was intoxicating.
or, it could be bad memory, and jonesing for something that's nowhere near as cool as i remember, that happens sometimes with things.
there's a couple boxes from my youth i hope to build one of these days, the original eh clone theory with the flange/vibrato switch (that switch made it special...you could get it between positions and it sounded unlike either setting, kind of a weird amalgamation of both) , a "buzz box" i had that was one of my first fuzzes...it was cool, had a little voltage meter on it, and it buzzed, not fuzzed...square wave city...and my first pedal, which i found schems and layouts for here, the kay fuzz with the cheezy plastic wah pedal.
my systech phaser would be nice to build too, really nailed that jimmy page "nobody's fault but mine" sound.
rg, do you know what i'm talking about with the buzz box? ever seen one? i don't know enough about it to be able to find what i'm looking for with it.
:icon_eek: :icon_biggrin:
gotta admit this has been my SECRET DIY CRUSH from lots of years :icon_redface:
About Ry's concerns on switching connections, the numbers on the board tell whats what, i think its easily deductable from the board AND the external pannel
Whats common on ancient bigass circuits its redundant parts or complete blocks, a functional workalike could be 2 or 3x smaller... at first glance, the very input has two LOW Z inputs, one of them could be severed, and so on... what would be useful is identifying the blocks (preamp, VCF, VCA, etc), their interaction and then reducing them
I saw one of these at Pauls Boutique in Toronto. I took a couple pics of it. The schematic was glued right onto it!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 08, 2011, 03:25:20 PM
MAN, i hope ya can find that...cuz that really is the missing link to getting it up and running!!!
but..here's the thing...if memory serves, it had 4pdt switches...that was the nitemare that made them irreparable and unreplaceable.
but...pretty sure that where there's a will, there's a way...perhaps switch it electronically with more readily available switches.
i got faith in rg in particular...if it can be done, i figure he'll figure it out!!
http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=670 (http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=670)
and http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=1073 (http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=1073)
and http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=1095 (http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=1095)
also http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=709 (http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=709)
and http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=443 (http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=443)
It's do-able now, lol. I'm interested, gonna be watching this thread.
sweet, thanks brother...let's make it happen somehow!!!!!~! ;D
I've never heard this thing. Sound clips, anyone?
I had to see what this thing looked like, I wasn't disappointed:
http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/ludwig/phase2 (http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/ludwig/phase2)
The big problem I see is how to set the 5 trimpots (or is it 7?)
sound clips will be tough...this is a real hen's tooth, bro...
don't know if the trimpots will be an issue....i gotta feeling if we all pull together on this, it's gonna happen!!!
like i said, owned one long ago, and was a fool...
but this is THE SINGLE COOLEST PEDAL EVER MADE.
I remember seeing one of these at a music store years ago sitting next to a Yamaha Midi Guitar setup. I was in Jr. High, so I just scoffed at it.
The guitar looked like this: http://members.cox.net/musicsite/Guitar%20Pics/A_PG380_01.jpg (http://members.cox.net/musicsite/Guitar%20Pics/A_PG380_01.jpg) and had a rack unit it needed to work, which had analog output to the amp. I also remember the guy saying the amp sitting there was made for the midi-out from the rack. Kewl stuff to me, now... but in 1990, well... :icon_neutral:
I Google'd some of the tranny numbers from the drawing, like 43054 for instance, and I'm coming up dry.
Damn... I'd love to try and do a vero of this sucker. Looks like monastery work (...3 years later :icon_eek:).
did you try a cross reference like:
http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf/$$Search
there's gotta be equivalents...i mean, in the end, if the tranny's a pnp/npn as long as the gain is in the ballpark, we should be good, right?
or am i still wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too newbe to "get" some of the nuances?
DUDE!!!! Thanks for the link! Neat little search engine, got it bookmarked.
I'm thinking that the trannies should be as close as possible insofar as values (voltages, gains, etc.) are concerned. Otherwise, I don't think the effect will perform as well, or close to the original. Craps all mighty, there's a crap-load of trannies in this sucker!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
but....if we build it,....it will be done! ;)
If you guys have this much determination to build one of these, it might make a great intro to PCB layout for one or more of you.
The board sketches show where mounting holes and wire connections go, and also have the parts placed. Given that, and that you know that this arrangement of parts has already resulted in a working unit, if you just place parts in the same relative positions, you should be able to connect the traces without too much of a problem. The schematic tells you what connects to what, the board sketch tells you where the points are that will be connected. All you need to do is run the traces.
If I were doing this, I'd take a drawing/photo program and scale up the parts placement diagrams to as close to real size as I could guess at. Perfection is not needed because no ICs with their locked-in lead spacing are used as I remember. Then I'd lock that layer and add another drawing layer over the diagram, and start putting in pads and traces.
It's a good beginner's exercise, if a bit extensive; not too tricky. If you've never done anything like this, it'll take a couple of afternoons. If you're experienced in basic layout, one afternoon should do.
that's an awesome idea, rg...is there a program you'd reccomend for doing this kind of graphic work?
i really wanna try and make this happen...it would be cool if we could produce a work/soundalike for a 100 or 200$.
i bet it really wouldn't be all that hard to do, i realize it would put a dent in the vintage prices. but...as often happens cuz of the diy community,
the diy forum version may actually IMPROVE slightly on the original design...we have a lot of options that plain weren't available in the early 70's!!
;)
Is this the pedal used on sonic youth's "diamond sea"?
I believe I've seen one once -- under thurston moore's foot.
yep, that's it
Yep,
Somewhere I have a single with the 28 minute version where he really digs into it.
Saw them like six times on that tour/the lollapalooza tour. It really was their last truly great record in my opinion, not that I don't dig the records after that, they seem to flirt with being good and then they let Kim sing some nonsense, I love her and all, but save that silly crap for Free Kitten.
Quote from: wavley on May 09, 2011, 03:10:35 PM
Yep,
Somewhere I have a single with the 28 minute version where he really digs into it.
Saw them like six times on that tour/the lollapalooza tour. It really was their last truly great record in my opinion, not that I don't dig the records after that, they seem to flirt with being good and then they let Kim sing some nonsense, I love her and all, but save that silly crap for Free Kitten.
Ooh, ouch.
Personally, I like their early stuff, then they lose me in the late 80's/early 90's --
daydream nation, goo, dirty (I know this is where most people love them), and then I get more into their
Experimental Jet Set... and after stuff. Washing Machine is one of my favorites though.
I haven't followed them super closely since maybe about 2000 or so, but I have heard stuff I liked all along the way. Last I saw them was in 2004 or 5 I think when some friends' band toured with them, and it was as good as I've ever seen them, IMO. Played with Thurston's Aktion unit once too and it ripped. I've got major respect for the whole SY crew and how they have kept it real over the years.
Didn't know that about Diamond Sea! The 28 minute version is on The Destroyed Room. That makes me want to play with this..you bastards :icon_redface:
To be honest the only records of theirs I'm not mad about are NYC: Ghosts And Flowers and A Thousand Leaves - and I'm only negative towards A Thousand Leaves because of French Tickler. I hate it that much. Drowning The Snake was also such a bad song it put me off their last album for ages! Kim has that sort of vibe, but sometimes she gets nails it. Still, it's an awful thing when noise fans find your singing abit too caustic...
Quote from: Top Top on May 09, 2011, 03:26:12 PM
Quote from: wavley on May 09, 2011, 03:10:35 PM
Yep,
Somewhere I have a single with the 28 minute version where he really digs into it.
Saw them like six times on that tour/the lollapalooza tour. It really was their last truly great record in my opinion, not that I don't dig the records after that, they seem to flirt with being good and then they let Kim sing some nonsense, I love her and all, but save that silly crap for Free Kitten.
Ooh, ouch.
Personally, I like their early stuff, then they lose me in the late 80's/early 90's -- daydream nation, goo, dirty (I know this is where most people love them), and then I get more into their Experimental Jet Set... and after stuff. Washing Machine is one of my favorites though.
I haven't followed them super closely since maybe about 2000 or so, but I have heard stuff I liked all along the way. Last I saw them was in 2004 or 5 I think when some friends' band toured with them, and it was as good as I've ever seen them, IMO. Played with Thurston's Aktion unit once too and it ripped. I've got major respect for the whole SY crew and how they have kept it real over the years.
I like the early stuff the best too, it can't be touched. I've seen them every tour since Goo (I was a little young for anything but skating to their records before that), did some crazy things like fly to Toronto from Tampa or drive to Chicago to see the Daydream Nation (Pitchfork Festival) show for my honeymoon. I don't know, the last few times I've seen them they seemed bitter and trying to hold on to some kind of teen angst, I guess in an effort to bring young kids in to the fold, kind of like when Aerosmith got Diane Warren to write songs for them. I wish they would just embrace the fact that they are middle age and be themselves. Of course this is just my opinion, I was playing with some guys not too long ago that were huge fans (but 10 years younger than me) and they were going through my LPs and didn't recognize anything Pre-Goo, Experimental is what started it for them. Maybe my opinion is based on ME being an old guy and projecting a bit ;D
Big SST Sister Poster in my studio...
(http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/14/6d798f6970824e78b4eeb88cedfb1526/l.jpg)
Sorry to derail the thread, back to Ludwig
Quote from: Jazznoise on May 09, 2011, 04:00:38 PM
Didn't know that about Diamond Sea! The 28 minute version is on The Destroyed Room. That makes me want to play with this..you bastards :icon_redface:
To be honest the only records of theirs I'm not mad about are NYC: Ghosts And Flowers and A Thousand Leaves - and I'm only negative towards A Thousand Leaves because of French Tickler. I hate it that much. Drowning The Snake was also such a bad song it put me off their last album for ages! Kim has that sort of vibe, but sometimes she gets nails it. Still, it's an awful thing when noise fans find your singing abit too caustic...
Same here, there are songs on those records that I like, but the bad ones are just soooo baaaddd. I really like Murray St and the new one, but it kind of seems like the spark that made it arty is gone, maybe it's just me. I did see them play a three hour fan show on the NYC Ghosts tour at a bar under a different name (Perspectives Musicales) where they all played solo sets to open and it was AWESOME!! They sucked the next night opening for Pearl Jam, but that was more the crowd's fault.
I forgot that track is on destroyed room, I resent that record a little for making all of my scouring record stores for 7" and 12" singles and ep's for years not so special anymore, but actually I'm glad that folks can get hold of that stuff now. I've always thought that Genetic was one of their best songs and they put that on the remaster.
Thanks Top Top! I knew someone would find a clip! That thing sounds awesome!
Now, before any of us attempt a layout per R.G.'s suggestion, can anyone confirm that the original is a single-sided board rather than double-sided? Finding out halfway through making a layout would be a nasty surprise...
it was indeed a single sided board. i don't think double sided really started happening til the late 70's/early 80's.
like i said, i did open mine up back about 1980 or so and looked inside. i think the only thing we won't be able to replicate is the colour changing switches.
btw...i believe steve howe used one of these on the album topographic oceans, as there's one song on there that completely nailed the tone of the phase II.
sorry, been too many years since i heard it to remember the name, but i believe it was in d, if that makes any difference.
this pedal is capable of ALOT of different sounds. the talking vowel thing is a gas, but the phaser is, too, as is the fuzz. and it has enough output to open and close vco and vcf's, too, for the analog synth set. i remember wiring it up to a friends arp 2600, and it was pretty intense. i didn't know at the time what he did or how he hooked it up, all i know was it allowed that big 2600 to become about the coolest guitar pedal in the world.
I loved Murray St. and Sonic Nurse, I did think they were coming of age albums too tbh. Idk what's up with The Eternal..
ANYWAY! This SY fanboyism is off topic (even if I'd have never gotten into this before em) and will not generate delicious phaser. Though his project is WAYYY above my current level. But I'm excited by the idea of people trying to build this, considering the component cost and workload. Though I imagine a little modern ingenuity could be used to scale it down. IC usage, more modern transistors (read: less leaky transistors). I can see why there isn't a million of these floating around considering what they made it with!
I'm also surprised by the number of phase stages, these fancy pedals always make you think there'll be a bazillion of them!
i forget, but i believe there were maybe 1000 of these units made in toto. they really weren't that popular, which is why most ended up in high school electronic music programs. back then, peeps didn't play guitar thru them so much, they fed oscillators and tape thru them to create as then unheard sounds. the one i had had apparently never even been plugged in according to my old hs band director, and had sat in a corner of the office untouched since around 1970. i got it about 10 years later, as it was slated to be junked.
THAT would have been a shame!!!!
Quote from: Jazznoise on May 09, 2011, 05:18:39 PM
I loved Murray St. and Sonic Nurse, I did think they were coming of age albums too tbh. Idk what's up with The Eternal..
ANYWAY! This SY fanboyism is off topic (even if I'd have never gotten into this before em) and will not generate delicious phaser. Though his project is WAYYY above my current level. But I'm excited by the idea of people trying to build this, considering the component cost and workload. Though I imagine a little modern ingenuity could be used to scale it down. IC usage, more modern transistors (read: less leaky transistors). I can see why there isn't a million of these floating around considering what they made it with!
I'm also surprised by the number of phase stages, these fancy pedals always make you think there'll be a bazillion of them!
Sorry, didn't mean to go all fanboy ;) got a little overzealous and excited because I live in the country now, not many peeps to talk good music with.
Tales has some of my favorite Howe tones!
Maybe board mounted switches would be good for this thing.
Sorry to go back to Sonic Youth. Their soundtrack to this, Simon Werner a Disparu (aka Lights Out), is really great. I didn't care for their last studio album but still like them a lot. There were some nice moments on Sonic Nurse and the one after that. I still listen to Goo, Daydream, and Sister a lot. That soundtrack is lovely, though...
Hey guys, I found the drawings of the switches and a couple of email chains about them. I need to get them scanned, at which point I will post them (probably on Friday).
:icon_biggrin:
awesome, can't wait to see that stuff....i'm really psyched how everyone is pulling together to make this happen.
speaks volumes about the charachter of the people on this forum!!!
Quote from: Keppy on May 09, 2011, 04:36:32 PM
Thanks Top Top! I knew someone would find a clip! That thing sounds awesome!
Now, before any of us attempt a layout per R.G.'s suggestion, can anyone confirm that the original is a single-sided board rather than double-sided? Finding out halfway through making a layout would be a nasty surprise...
Look at the original schematic/layout and you will see there are a number of jumper wires on the top of the PCB
In action:
ok, i hit the search function....here's what i could find that seemed relevant...we're slowly getting closer!!!!!!!
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/c-martin/fuzzes/Ludwig%20Phase%20II/phase-II-top-schematic.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/c-martin/fuzzes/Ludwig%20Phase%20II/phase-II-btm-full.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/c-martin/fuzzes/Ludwig%20Phase%20II/phase-II-top-pcb.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/c-martin/fuzzes/Ludwig%20Phase%20II/phase-II-switches.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/c-martin/fuzzes/Ludwig%20Phase%20II/phase-II-control-panel.jpg)
guys, this is too damn wack, but i believe these pics are of my old ludwig...i mean, what are the odds of another one where the same damn switch
had broken, and been replaced??????????? f*** me, small world...
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/c-martin/fuzzes/Ludwig%20Phase%20II/phase-II-pedal-lit.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/c-martin/fuzzes/Ludwig%20Phase%20II/the-shorting.jpg)
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5199/ludwigphaseiibottomboar.jpg)
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=62567.0
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=19199.0
I was really expecting those photos to be a lot more frightening. It really don't look TOO bad... Still would be a good time investment though. Nice 1/2 and 1 watt resistors.
i think the biggest part will be sourcing original parts. i'm sure they'll be available, as it was pretty common stuff back in the day.
what i'm wondering is if this can be improved on, or if any parts can be changed to chips to cut down on parts count, etc.
or...if doing so would change the whole vibe of it. these things sound great, i really hope between a bunch of us we can hammer it out to be a workable
workalike/soundalike.
i'm a newbe, i'm just learning to veroboard stuff, so probably won't be as much help as i wish i could be.
Here's a first attempt. Let me know if I screwed anything up!
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/LudwigPhaseIILAYOUT.png)
keppy!!! you are godlyke!!!!
it looks good to me preliminarily, but i'm still kind of a newbe, so i'm gonna lurk and watch a while.
looks like i'll be learning to etch pretty soon...doing this on vero would probably be a night mare.
thanks, dude...somehow, together, i gotta feeling that this unit is gonna rise like a phoenix...nice work!! :icon_mrgreen:
Good work Keppy. That's exactly what I was suggesting.
From here, the next things to consider are
(1) scaling; get someone to measure the actual size of those resistors in the pictures of the boards, and figure out whether the resistors are 1/4 W or 1/2W (that is, 0.4" lead spacing or 0.5" lead spacing) and what the spacing is on the trimmer pins so you can adjust the pads for trimmer pots you can actually buy. Shoot, as long as you're asking for sizes, have 'em measure the length and width of the PCB.
(2) mounting: I think I see circles for four mounting holes in there. Make sure there's an empty round space around those mounting holes big enough to get a nut in to screw the board down.
(3) Trace run cleanup; there's always a tidier run of the traces. This is purely an artistic nit.
(4) Checking, checking, checking. Print out the schematic, and the PCB showing traces and parts. Then *one person* takes the schematic and a colored marker, *another person* takes the PCB and a colored marker, and the person with the schematic tells the other person, trace by trace, what connects to what. The person with the PCB checks, then marks off the correct traces with colored marker. Then the person with the schematic marks the schematic. It's an old, slow way to do it, but it's necessary for humans to separate looking at one, then the other. One person can do both if they're very, very careful; the markers are invaluable in doing it wiht one person.
Confession time: I did the fall board last night as well. But I think this effort deserves to be what gets out to the DIY community, so you guys go and run with it!
r.g., dumb newbe question, but should everything be combined into just one board? would that make it easier, or more of a nitemare?
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 11, 2011, 11:15:30 AM
r.g., dumb newbe question, but should everything be combined into just one board? would that make it easier, or more of a nitemare?
Interesting question. And it's far from a dumb newbie question, it's the beginning of a very thoughtful one.
As I keep telling everyone who will listen, the first step in PCB layout is to get clear the mechanical constraints of where the board mounts in the box (and what box you're using) and where the controls, etc. have to go to fit the mechanical constraints. If you can simply buy a huge box later, that's great and you can make the board as big and odd-shaped as needed. However, it gets really crucial if you HAVE TO fit in a certain box; a pre-chosen box has to be taken into account or the layout may not be possible at all. In electronics, it's a truism that size does matter. :icon_biggrin:
Given that, the obvious question is this: what box will this go in? The Ludwig had a large, complicated enclosure that I don't think anyone would duplicate. It's one of the best illustrations of what I wrote in "Effects Economics 101" - the electronics is almost free compared to the cost of the box and controls.
In terms of just getting a layout done, making a single board squashing it all together is much, much more difficult for a beginner than overlaying traces on the existing drawings. It involves all the nasty questions of changing the relative positions of all the parts, and is essentially a start-from-scratch layout from the schematic. It's a very much more complicated layout job. But it is the only thing that offers an escape from just buying a big enough box and working with it.
I think that the right thing to do in this case is for you and Keppy and others to overlay the boards as they exist, and then find a box to put them in instead of trying to combine the two boards. You have a few other challenges waiting as well: can you get commercial parts to do the controls and switches and how will you arrange and mount them? These are a GREAT introduction to the larger issue of how one thinks about designing the entirety of an effect (or any other electronic widget) and I think this is a good way to go about it. The Ludwig is nice in that you don't even have the possibility of putting it into a Hammond 1590BB, so that leaves you free to find other setups.
I also notice that none of this talks about the power supply for the Ludwig. I wonder that that looks like... :icon_biggrin:
Thanks guys! I double-checked the connections last night, so I think it's going to take a different set of eyes to find any mistakes. I won't have a chance to try R.G.'s two-man method this week, so if someone else could check it over I'd really appreciate it. I think the scaling is good, though. I sized the photo before I started to get .3" resistor lead spacing, which I believe gave me .2" x .1" on the trimpots. The scaling should not be an issue. All those axial-lead electrolytics and giant film caps look like a pain, though.
Quote from: Keppy on May 11, 2011, 11:36:27 AM
Thanks guys! I double-checked the connections last night, so I think it's going to take a different set of eyes to find any mistakes. I won't have a chance to try R.G.'s two-man method this week, so if someone else could check it over I'd really appreciate it. I think the scaling is good, though. I sized the photo before I started to get .3" resistor lead spacing, which I believe gave me .2" x .1" on the trimpots.
Good thinking - you're already on scaling. I did much the same kind of thinking. I came to a little different conclusion, though. 1/4W resistors on 0.3" spacing has the leads bent very, very tightly at the end of the body. That is a reliability problem, as you will stress and crack a certain percentage of them bending that close to the body.
These look to me like they're on 0.4" spacing, normal for 1/4W resistors because the leads are not bent right at the body. They don't look like 1/8W to me. I think R74 is a 1/2W, up in the upper left hand corner. That question in my mind is what led to me wondering if one of the picture takers could give even one measurement.
QuoteThe scaling should not be an issue. All those axial-lead electrolytics and giant film caps look like a pain, though.
In mine, I ditche the axial lead electros in favor of modern radials. A radial can have its leads bent wide for wide holes. The giant film caps are probably much smaller today. I suspect that you can replace all of them with 0.2" lead spacing box style caps. That's what I did in mine.
But you bring up an important point: it is frustrating to do a layout then find out that you can't get a part you thought you could. Next step is to make a bill of materials and **go find every single, stinking part on line** and find out its lead spacing and dimensions. If you can't get parts that fit, it's better to know that before you etch.
And you guys do know that within a week of you getting one running, there will be three new effects companies with their Lugwig Phase II clones on the internet, right? Complete with hand wired, point to point controls, NOS carbon comp resistors and hand matched NOS (and probably germanium!) transistors, and a pre-charged waiting list, on a new web site that has - well, unusual :icon_biggrin: - theories about sound and how it is made.
:icon_lol:
i wonder if something like this would work for an enclosure?
http://www.budind.com/view.php?part=pl-l
(http://www.budind.com/images/product/medium/plastic-boxes-pl-l.jpg)
was thinking something like this, with a crybaby shell as the expression pedal, may give enough room to mount the footswitches, boards, and control switches?
i saw a metal thing like this a while back surfing...will try to find again. plastic worries me, and this i think will be a little too small..
Quote from: R.G. on May 11, 2011, 11:50:09 AM
And you guys do know that within a week of you getting one running, there will be three new effects companies with their Lugwig Phase II clones on the internet, right? Complete with hand wired, point to point controls, NOS carbon comp resistors and hand matched NOS (and probably germanium!) transistors, and a pre-charged waiting list, on a new web site that has - well, unusual :icon_biggrin: - theories about sound and how it is made.
:icon_lol:
r.g., you just made me spray coffee all over my 'puter screen....lol!!!!! :icon_mrgreen:
dig this page...bet one of these would work for an enclosure, and they're not prohibitively expensive...the 10 degree slope metal box is what i was looking at, it's available up to 14" wide:
http://www.a1parts.com/boxes/1456_sloped_aluminum_consoles.htm#10%20Degree%20Slope
It probably wouldn't be too difficult to just cut some sheet metal to size, bend for the front and back, and cut out some wooden side pannels and bottom out like a moogerfooger. I've done that for a pedal build and it came out pretty nice actually.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 11, 2011, 12:03:23 PM
dig this page...bet one of these would work for an enclosure, and they're not prohibitively expensive...the 10 degree slope metal box is what i was looking at, it's available up to 14" wide:
http://www.a1parts.com/boxes/1456_sloped_aluminum_consoles.htm#10%20Degree%20Slope
Exactly! Those are gorgeous.
i was figuring if stuff would all fit in the box, could bolt a crybaby shell to the top for the exp treadle, mount the 4 footswitches along the sides, and have plenty of room left over for control switches, outputs, power supply, etc... and it would LOOK cool! :icon_biggrin:
hey, was wondering if anyone knows how to get a hold of "sir hc"...i believe he was the guy that posted the original gut shots, etc...perhaps he could help us with some info on the power supply board?
i still get mail from alt.guitaramps whatever, but for some reason can't post.
i bet he'd get in on the fun!
just an idea...
I was thinking of using one of those Hammond 1456s on another build. They're vented, though, and I don't know how much that would affect the hum shielding ability of the box.
Quote from: Keppy on May 11, 2011, 12:55:35 PM
I was thinking of using one of those Hammond 1456s on another build. They're vented, though, and I don't know how much that would affect the hum shielding ability of the box.
More importantly is the jacks. They'd have to be mounted on top of the box, unless you didn't mind having akward jack mountings on the back. Kind of a shame they're made that way.
Quote from: R.G. on May 11, 2011, 11:45:51 AM
These look to me like they're on 0.4" spacing, normal for 1/4W resistors because the leads are not bent right at the body. They don't look like 1/8W to me. I think R74 is a 1/2W, up in the upper left hand corner. That question in my mind is what led to me wondering if one of the picture takers could give even one measurement.
I see your point. Scaling it up 33% actually sounds pretty nice. Those would be some luxuriously large solder pads!
Can someone take a look at R65 (the big trimmer) for me? It's an unfamiliar shape to me, and I could only identify 2 solder points on the picture. That seems weird to me for a trimmer, but not unthinkable. Can anyone confirm whether I got that one right, or explain to me how I got it wrong?
There are some similar trimmers on the top board that appear to have up to six solder points, so I'm pretty sure I have no friggin' idea what those particular graphics are telling me. ???
Quote from: Keppy on May 11, 2011, 02:05:32 PM
Can someone take a look at R65 (the big trimmer) for me? It's an unfamiliar shape to me, and I could only identify 2 solder points on the picture. That seems weird to me for a trimmer, but not unthinkable. Can anyone confirm whether I got that one right, or explain to me how I got it wrong?
There are some similar trimmers on the top board that appear to have up to six solder points, so I'm pretty sure I have no friggin' idea what those particular graphics are telling me. ???
Can't really tell from that top down picture, but it is probably just connected at the center and left/right lug and either NC or linked to the center on the opposite side. The trimmers with 6 legs are dual gang maybe? Never seen one, but who knows with this thing.
i've hit the hcfx forum and a few places putting out feelers for more info...wish me luck!!!!
"hi guys, long time...this is more for the old-timers here.
me and some other like-minded peeps on the diystompboxes forum are trying to ressurect and clone the mighty and venerable ludwig phase II guitar-synthesizer interface pedal.
big job...it's coming along.
but...
we need to know about the power supply. wiring harness info would be groovy too..
the billion dollar feckin' question...anyone HAVE one of these things? if so, anyone got the power supply layout/schematic?
pictures, scans, info in general. we've got the preliminary pcb boards being worked out, and have tracked down the actual schematics and a shit load of gut shots, but need some help...so if you're out there, or ya know someone who IS out there that can help, please either reply to this here thread, or send me a pm or something.
we wanna make this thing walk again so peeps can build their own...and that means you can, too.
thanks in advance.
peace
pink"
I found a clearer scan of the top board layout/schem. Oddly, the pick of the fall plate board was one we already have.
(http://music-electronics-forum.com/attachments/1100d1193183118-ludwig-phase-ii-top-pcb.jpg)
that IS clearer. but it's the same one we already have...probably been compressed as a jpg a few less times, or cleared up with a photoshop style program.
i tried to do that with irfanview, reduced the color depth but the scan i was working on had too much degradation. nice find mate!! :thu:
Q2 on the top board has 2 bases. Haven't seen that before. Who's gonna tell us noobs what that is?
Quote from: Keppy on May 11, 2011, 03:37:34 PM
Q2 on the top board has 2 bases. Haven't seen that before. Who's gonna tell us noobs what that is?
It's a Unijunction Transistor http://baec.tripod.com/DEC90/uni_tran.htm (http://baec.tripod.com/DEC90/uni_tran.htm)
I don't have much experience with them, but you see them sometimes in oscillator circuits.
http://baec.tripod.com/DEC90/uni_tran.htm
EDIT: thanks wavley!!
(http://baec.tripod.com/DEC90/pics/P13_F123.gif)
(http://baec.tripod.com/DEC90/pics/P13_F4.gif)
The basic structure of a unijunction transistor (UJT) is shown in Fig.1. It is essentially a bar of N type semiconductor material into which P type material has been diffused somewhere along its length. Contacts are then made to the device as shown; these are referred to as the emitter, base 1 and base 2 respectively. Fig.2 shows the schematic symbol used to denote a UJT in circuit diagrams. For ease of manufacture alternative methods of making contact with the bar have been developed, giving rise to the two types of structure - bar and cube - shown in Fig.3
P13_F123 P13_F4
The equivalent circuit shown in Fig.4 has been developed to explain how the device works, and it is necessary to define the terms used in this explanation.
RBB is known as the interbase resistance, and is the sum of RB1 and RB2:
RBB = RB1 + RB2 (1)
N.B. This is only true when the emitter is open circuit.
VRB1 is the voltage developed across RB1; this is given by the voltage divider rule:
RB1
VRB1 = (2)
RB1 + RB2
Since the denominator of equation 2 is equal to equation 1, the former can be rewritten as:
RB1
VRB1 = x VBB (3)
RBB
The ratio RB1 / RBB is referred to as the intrinsic standoff ratio and is denoted by Eta (the Greek letter eta).
If an external voltage Ve is connected to the emitter, the equivalent circuit can be redrawn as shown in Fig.5.
If Ve is less than VRB1, the diode is reverse biased and the circuit behaves as though the emitter was open circuit. If however Ve is increased so that it exceeds VRB1 by at least 0.7V, the diode becomes forward biased and emitter current Ie flows into the base 1 region. Because of this, the value of RB1 decreases. It has been suggested that this is due to the presence of additional charge carriers (holes) in the bar. Further increase in Ve causes the emitter current to increase which in turn reduces RB1 and this causes a further increase in current. This runaway effect is termed regeneration. The value of emitter voltage at which this occurs is known as the peak voltage VP and is given by: VP = Eta AVVBB + VD (4)
The characteristics of the UJT are illustrated by the graph of emitter voltage against emitter current (Fig.6).
(http://baec.tripod.com/DEC90/pics/P14_F5.gif)
(http://baec.tripod.com/DEC90/pics/P14_F6.gif)
As the emitter voltage is increased, the current is very small - just a few microamps. When the peak point is reached, the current rises rapidly, until at the valley point the device runs into saturation. At this point RB1 is at its lowest value, which is known as the saturation resistance.
The simplest application of a UJT is as a relaxation oscillator, which is defined as one in which a capacitor is charged gradually and then discharged rapidly. The basic circuit is shown in Fig.7; in the practical circuit of Fig.8 R3 limits the emitter current and provides a voltage pulse, while R2 provides a measure of temperature compensation. Fig. 9 shows the waveforms occurring at the emitter and base 1; the first is an approximation to a sawtooth and the second is a pulse of short duration.
(http://baec.tripod.com/DEC90/pics/P15_F789.gif)
The operation of the circuit is as follows: C1 charges through R1 until the voltage across it reaches the peak point. The emitter current then rises rapidly, discharging C1 through the base 1 region and R3. The sudden rise of current through R3 produces the voltage pulse. When the current falls to IV the UJT switches off and the cycle is repeated.
It can be shown that the time t between successive pulses is given by:
VBB - VV
t + R1C ln secs (5) N.B. R measured in Megaohms. C in µF.
VBB - VP
Design for a lKHz relaxation oscillator
The oscillator uses a 2N2646 UJT, which is the most readily available device, and is to operate from a 10V D.C. power supply.
From the relevant data sheet the specifications for the 2N2646 are:
VEB2O IE(peak) PTOT(max) IP(max) IV(max) Eta Case style TO18
30V 2A 300mw 5µA 4ma 0.56 - 0.75
It is important that the value of R1 is small enough to allow the emitter current to reach IP when the capacitor voltage reaches VP and large enough so that the emitter current is less than IV when the capacitor discharges to VV. The limiting values for R1 are given by:
VBB - VP VBB - VV
R1(max) = and R2(min) =
IP IV
From the specifications for the 2N2646 the average value of Eta is 0.56 + 0.75/2 = 0.655. Substituting this value in equation (4) and assuming VD = 0/7V: VP = 0.655 x 10 + 0.7 = 7.25V.
So R1(max) = 10 - 7.25/5µA = 550K, and if VV = approx VBB/10,
R1(min) = 10 - 1/4mA = 2.25K.
If we choose a value for R1 somewhere between these limits, e.g. lOK, the value of C can be calculated from equation (5)
If f = 1MHz, t = 1/f = 1msec. VBB - VP = 10 - 7.25 = 2.75 and VBB - VV = 10 - 1 = 9
t
Rearranging equation(5) to make C the subject: C = VBB - VV
R1 ln
VBB - VP
0.001
so C = = approx 84nF.
104 ln (9/2.75)
Because of component and UJT tolerances it is sufficient in most circumstances to use an approximate formula: f = 1/CR, which assumes that Eta is 0.63 - well within 5% of the average value for the 2N2646. In practice one would use a variable resistance (or a variable resistance in series with a fixed resistance) for R1 so that the frequency of oscillation could be adjusted to give the required value.
R2 is not essential; if it is included, a value of 470 ohms is appropriate for the 2N2646. The value of R3 should be small in comparison with RBB, with which it is in series, so as to prevent it from affecting the value of the peak voltage. A value of 47 ohms or thereabouts is satisfactory.
Editor's notes: The above design points are illustrated in the circuit of the enlarger timer which was described earlier this year in the April Newsletter. In that circuit the UJT provides clock pulses at 20Hz. R1 is a combination of a 47K variable and a 150K fixed resistance; R2 is omitted and R3 is 33 ohms. The timing capacitor has a value of 220nF. In addition to the 2N2646, the component list for this timer also includes the TIS43 and the 2N4891. Most suppliers list only the 2N2646, but Maplin also include the TIS43. This device was used with a transistor constant current generator as the sawtooth oscillator in the timebase of the "Student's Oscilloscope" published in "Practical Wireless" in August 1973.
In his book "110 Semiconductor Projects for the Home Constructor" (2nd edition 1978), R.M.Marston gives twenty circuits for UJT projects using the 2N2646. These include pulse and sawtooth generators, analogue/digital converters, relay time delay circuits and frequency dividers. If any member would like to experiment with UJTs there is a good number of 2N2646 and TIS43 in Cyril's stock, and Ray Marston's book can be borrowed from me for 38p postage.
There is also a device called a programmable UJT - the BRY39 is an example so called because its parameters can be set by external components. It is a PNPN device, similar in some ways to a thyristor, and can be used in applications similar to those for the UJT. Perhaps we could have an article about this in a future Newsletter.
Anyone notice yet that it wants +35V?
No prob Jimi. I don't have a lot of time for board tracing, but I would really like to assist this project in any way that I can.
Whelp boys, looks like we got us here one of dem fancy pants big city relaxation oscillators.
Quote from: R.G. on May 11, 2011, 03:57:11 PM
Anyone notice yet that it wants +35V?
Yeah, I see that 36V zener in there.
Looks like (if I'm not mistaken) all we're missing from the power supply is a center tapped transformer.
Quote from: R.G. on May 11, 2011, 03:57:11 PM
Anyone notice yet that it wants +35V?
Noticed both the voltage and your periodic hints to check it out ;)
R.G., would your charge pump scheme work to power this? Your site shows how to get +33v from a +9v supply with a MAX1044. If we used an LT1054, which is a drop-in replacement and can accept up to +15v supply, could we power it with 12v and get something in the right range, or high enough to regulate down to +35v?
Quote from: Keppy on May 11, 2011, 04:35:04 PM
R.G., would your charge pump scheme work to power this? Your site shows how to get +33v from a +9v supply with a MAX1044. If we used an LT1054, which is a drop-in replacement and can accept up to +15v supply, could we power it with 12v and get something in the right range, or high enough to regulate down to +35v?
Personally I would rather see this pedal AC powered. +12v isn't something readily available on most of our pedal boards so it means yet another wall wart, the thing is already going to be a massive effect, there's no getting around that. I'm thinking more like the old Morley PFL http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/morley/telray/pfl (http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/morley/telray/pfl)
What I would do, not that anybody else's way is wrong by any means because maybe a charge pump is a great idea and I'm just not seeing it right, is ditch the center tapped full wave rectifier for a bridge rectifier package with a small transformer.
Just my opinion, don't want to step on any toes.
Quote from: wavley on May 11, 2011, 05:04:29 PM
Personally I would rather see this pedal AC powered. +12v isn't something readily available on most of our pedal boards so it means yet another wall wart, the thing is already going to be a massive effect, there's no getting around that. I'm thinking more like the old Morley PFL http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/morley/telray/pfl (http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/morley/telray/pfl)
What I would do, not that anybody else's way is wrong by any means because maybe a charge pump is a great idea and I'm just not seeing it right, is ditch the center tapped full wave rectifier for a bridge rectifier package with a small transformer.
Just my opinion, don't want to step on any toes.
My toes will be fine. I'm asking more as a matter of curiosity. I've used charge pumps a few times now, with more projects planned that will require them, and I want to know their capabilities. I haven't dealt too much with AC conversion yet. The CX-3 Leslie I'm working on uses it, but I was having trouble locating the large capacitor required and figured it would just be easier to supply it with the 12v DC it's gonna end up with anyway. Regardless, I'm interested in any and all convenient ways of doing this.
I think it was about $1000 at Pauls Boutique in Toronto.
(http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y370/rouejeremy/100_2625.jpg)
(http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y370/rouejeremy/100_2624.jpg)
Quote from: wavley on May 11, 2011, 04:09:49 PM
Yeah, I see that 36V zener in there.
Looks like (if I'm not mistaken) all we're missing from the power supply is a center tapped transformer.
Quote from: Keppy on May 11, 2011, 04:24:33 PM
Quote from: R.G. on May 11, 2011, 03:57:11 PM
Anyone notice yet that it wants +35V?
Noticed both the voltage and your periodic hints to check it out ;)
Just checking guys. Trying to prod it in the right direction. :)
Quote from: Keppy on May 11, 2011, 04:35:04 PM
R.G., would your charge pump scheme work to power this? Your site shows how to get +33v from a +9v supply with a MAX1044. If we used an LT1054, which is a drop-in replacement and can accept up to +15v supply, could we power it with 12v and get something in the right range, or high enough to regulate down to +35v?
It would somewhere between maybe and probably work. A lot depends on how much current the thing draws. They only use 100uF for the first filter cap, so it can't be all that much. And they have 100 ohms in series in front of the regulator transistor. If it were me, I'd use a charge pump running from 9V to get 40+V and then regulate, probably with the circuit that's already on the board. 9V is a lot more common.
Or, I might just use a 12V or 24Vac wall wart and use a multiplier on it to get more than 40Vdc. The multiplier could all be in the rectifier/filter for an AC output wart.
Mouser has 48V wall warts, and possibly 36V, for about $15 each. Goodwill stores sometimes have 24Vac wall warts for $1 - $2.
Quote from: wavley on May 11, 2011, 05:04:29 PM
Personally I would rather see this pedal AC powered. +12v isn't something readily available on most of our pedal boards so it means yet another wall wart, the thing is already going to be a massive effect, there's no getting around that. I'm thinking more like the old Morley PFL http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/morley/telray/pfl (http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/morley/telray/pfl)
What I would do, not that anybody else's way is wrong by any means because maybe a charge pump is a great idea and I'm just not seeing it right, is ditch the center tapped full wave rectifier for a bridge rectifier package with a small transformer.
Probably the best thing to do is to come up with a variety of power schemes. Volts is volts. The electrons don't know where they came from.
Quote from: R.G. on May 11, 2011, 09:06:56 PM
If it were me, I'd use a charge pump running from 9V to get 40+V and then regulate, probably with the circuit that's already on the board. 9V is a lot more common.
Thanks! Good to know the multiplication can be taken that far.
New layouts. I realized it doesn't matter that the trimpots look weird because the ones we get will be different anyway. I reworked the layout to include and additional solder pad for R65 and to include the mounting holes. I also added the top board. Both are laid out for .3" resistor lead spacing, so increase by 33% if you want .4" spacing.
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/LudwigPhaseIILAYOUT.jpg)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/LudwigPhaseIItopboardLAYOUT.jpg)
The parts for my other projects arrive tomorrow, so it's someone else's turn for now unless I need to correct my files.
I don't know how exact the trimpots need to be, but I'd recommend multi-turn cermet trimpots so you can really get it dialed in.
QuoteAnd you guys do know that within a week of you getting one running, there will be three new effects companies with their Lugwig Phase II clones on the internet, right? Complete with hand wired, point to point controls, NOS carbon comp resistors and hand matched NOS (and probably germanium!) transistors, and a pre-charged waiting list, on a new web site that has - well, unusual - theories about sound and how it is made.
While this may sound funny, I remember emailing a few of the then-rare boutique pedal dealers looking for information and/or leads on one of these back in 2001. He made it quite clear that he would be interested in distributing an updated version of this. While this is neither good or bad, it is a fact and it will happen.
QuoteIt would somewhere between maybe and probably work. A lot depends on how much current the thing draws. They only use 100uF for the first filter cap, so it can't be all that much. And they have 100 ohms in series in front of the regulator transistor. If it were me, I'd use a charge pump running from 9V to get 40+V and then regulate, probably with the circuit that's already on the board. 9V is a lot more common.
Well, if you can get 40v out of 9v then I am completely behind a charge pump, I'm not fond of running ac cords all over my pedalboard for a multitude of reasons. I was just trying to avoid another wall wart, but even if it has to go that way it's a small trade off for such an awesome pedal... I'm a sucker for overly large/overly complicated effects. I was under the impression that it was pushing the limits of charge pump, mostly because I haven't really used them. I mostly just work with 9v pedals, tube amps, and ac powered old stuff.
Quote from: Ry on May 12, 2011, 12:07:27 AM
While this may sound funny, I remember emailing a few of the then-rare boutique pedal dealers looking for information and/or leads on one of these back in 2001. He made it quite clear that he would be interested in distributing an updated version of this. While this is neither good or bad, it is a fact and it will happen.
I'm sure it will. I'm a little surprised it didn't when I posted the combined schematics on GEO back when. I guess some clones need more spoon feeding than others.
What's funny is that this thing can be built much more compactly and economically today. Those filters can be replaced with a single IC (a 13700) each, and the switch/trajectory/formant stuff can be done much more economically other ways today as well. On the list of "I gotta do that some day" is making a wah pedal with dual filters and switchable "trajectories" although I didn't call them that in my head, that can be an ordinary wah, a reverse wah, an "animator", and a vowel wah depending on the switch setting. You get all that out of an 8 pin PIC and two LM13700s. But it does take more design work than cloning an existing PCB, so I'd expect the clones to roll in.
Quote from: wavley on May 12, 2011, 09:26:25 AM
Well, if you can get 40v out of 9v then I am completely behind a charge pump, I'm not fond of running ac cords all over my pedalboard for a multitude of reasons. I was just trying to avoid another wall wart, but even if it has to go that way it's a small trade off for such an awesome pedal... I'm a sucker for overly large/overly complicated effects. I was under the impression that it was pushing the limits of charge pump, mostly because I haven't really used them. I mostly just work with 9v pedals, tube amps, and ac powered old stuff.
Pretty much you can get whatever voltage out of whatever voltage if you're willing to work hard enough at it. I saw a design once that got 400V out of a CMOS logic package running on 18V using only diodes and caps. The limits are pretty much that you lose some power as waste heat at every step, and you're also limited as to the total power that the low voltage can supply and that the multiplier parts can handle.
The first law of thermodynamics says that you can never get out more power than you put into any process. The second law says you can't even do that well, and you'll always have some losses. So if you want 45V out and have 9V to work with, the first law says you can never do better than needing five times as much current from 9V as you get out at 45V. The second law says it will be worse than that, and that you'll get out less power (volts times amps) on the "45V" output than you put in at 9V. How much less depends on how clever you are and how good/fast/non-lossy your process is for up-verting. This is one reason for transformers. Transformers do a remarkably wide range of 'verting' at a remarkably lower set of losses than any other practical process.
is there any way that we can prevent some nefarious profit mongers from stealing the work being done here? i mean, we can't copywrite the circuit or anything i'd imagine...
i mean stealing work here would be unethical, but would it be illegal? should we maybe ask aaron to move this thread to the member's only part of the forum or something?
i really wanna see this thing live again, but it'd be a shame for all the peeps who are doing the research and legwork to get screwed (again, as i'm sure has happened myriad times) just so some scumbag can steal these efforts to sell the damn thing off for profit. i mean...to me? build one for yourself, build a couple for friends, maybe sell one to cover the expense is legit...but doing it to make cake is wrong, at least imho.... sorry for the rant.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 12, 2011, 11:56:36 AM
is there any way that we can prevent some nefarious profit mongers from stealing the work being done here? i mean, we can't copywrite the circuit or anything i'd imagine...
i mean stealing work here would be unethical, but would it be illegal? should we maybe ask aaron to move this thread to the member's only part of the forum or something?
There is nothing you can do about it. In fact, a copier would point out - correctly! - that the circuit was come up with by Ludwig, and that this effort is no better or worse legally than what they would do. And copyright protects an expression, not a circuit. If it's not patented, it's fair game for anyone. It's not illegal. And as I've noticed, no one thinks grabbing a circuit off the internet is even unethical - until it's their work that is being copied. It takes only a very short time after a bit of work is copied until the original developer becomes a believer in intellectual property, on average. :icon_biggrin:
Here's another bit of reality - even if it were flatly illegal, no part of the justice system would enforce it. It's too small-potatoes and not politically newsworthy enough to do. Sorry, but them's the facts.
Quotei really wanna see this thing live again, but it'd be a shame for all the peeps who are doing the research and legwork to get screwed (again, as i'm sure has happened myriad times) just so some scumbag can steal these efforts to sell the damn thing off for profit. i mean...to me? build one for yourself, build a couple for friends, maybe sell one to cover the expense is legit...but doing it to make cake is wrong, at least imho.... sorry for the rant.
Take your satisfaction out of having rescued an interesting thing for posterity. The cat is already out of the bag as far as copying is concerned, as the circuits were on the internet long ago, and now that the PCB trial layouts have appeared here, they are already saved in zillions of hard drives around the world.
Again, sorry, but them's the facts. It would take a pretty good nuclear war to erase the data that's already passed here.
it's all good, R.G. the important thing, is it looks like in time, this thing will ride again! :thu:
this is gonna be a humongous project for me to try to do, when i can afford the parts...i think the most complex thing i've built so far is a fuzz.
but the spirit's willing, and i've gotta learn somehow.
;)
Personnaly I'd be delighted to see some cheeky schematic "theif" rob this PCB, hopefully they'd miniaturise it and makes it for cheap too!
It's a great sounding and very interesting pedal, I'm interested in hearing what people can do with it more than anything else. I'm sort of a spectator in this (It's way above my head and would eat into my going to Japan money - no doubt I'll find clones there!) Take it on the chin, unless you want to spend your life making these yourself :icon_lol:
We will unearth and generate more incredible effects here before we're done, I'm sure.
Guys, great work! I applaud you for the effort in remaking this thing. Now, why is there so much excitement? I mean, since apparently very few of them were made, how many of you have heard it in person? Could someone describe what it does, and/or point to a recording of it? Someone posted a Sonic Youth thing, but I didn´t hear anything special there...
Also, wouldn´t it be interesting to dissect the schem as to see how it works, to make, as R.G. said, a modern-parts equivalent?
Yeah, I know it´s easy to talk while others work. My excuse to do all talk and no work is that my knowledge of schems is, mm, limited. :P
i owned one from 77-82. it's not hype. you can make your guitar damn near talk with it. phonemes, fuzz, killer phaser, wahs of many flavors, and you can use it to drive voltage controlled filters and oscillators on analog synths and modules.
it is sick.
NOTHING i have ever played thru sounds the same, and i've owned just about everything in the last 42 years i've been playing music.
to describe the sound is hard, cuz there are soooooooo many possibilities. the yoy sound is hip, that's in the clip and is the phaser modulating the vowel part of the wah circuit.
but there's more. the vowel wah is mighty close to aaaaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyoooooooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuu sounding, and it is a RUDE fuzztone that is hard to describe. man...sad so few were built, it's hard to try and describe as trying to describe the smell of purple.
I've been trying to track down equivilant numbers for the trannies, but it's like hen's teeth. I looked up 43121, and nada, zero, ziltch.
On the other hand, I have found one for 1500$. I'm considering buy it, but I just plunked down a wad of cash last week for a GT-PRO, and a Geiger Counter tonight.
It sucks, cuz I'd love to breadbard this sucker, but my life is packed in boxes right now, for god knows how long. :-[ >:( :-[
Quote from: digi2t on May 12, 2011, 07:18:50 PM
I've been trying to track down equivilant numbers for the trannies, but it's like hen's teeth. I looked up 43121, and nada, zero, ziltch.
You probably won't find anything on them. They're probably house numbered devices; ordinary devices bought in large quantities by the manufacturer stamped with their own unique number.
No worries. It is very likely that they can all be subbed by 2N3904/3906 or other common transistors.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 12, 2011, 03:30:57 PM
this is gonna be a humongous project for me to try to do, when i can afford the parts...i think the most complex thing i've built so far is a fuzz.
Funny thing is, even if you build it, the most complex thing you've built will STILL be a fuzz. ;D
Personally, I'm hoping we eventually come up with an IC version like RG keeps talking about. Even after going through the schematic and layouts several times, though, I still have no idea how this thing actually works, as my understanding of transistors is fairly pathetic at this point. That's why I did the layouts, actually -- it was the one part of this project that I could readily contribute to. I'd be willing to tackle a layout for a modern version as well, but I'm nowhere near able to actually design the circuit.
This will all be easier, though, after someone builds the "original" version and verifies the switching scheme (and possibly transistor substitutions). Who's doing it?
Quote from: digi2t on May 12, 2011, 07:18:50 PM
I've been trying to track down equivilant numbers for the trannies, but it's like hen's teeth. I looked up 43121, and nada, zero, ziltch.
2N2646 datasheet here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/2/N/2/6/2N2646.shtml (http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/2/N/2/6/2N2646.shtml)
Here's a thread about the 43121: http://www.electro-tech-online.com/datasheets-manuals-parts/94334-help-finding-obsolete-motorola-43121-transistor.html (http://www.electro-tech-online.com/datasheets-manuals-parts/94334-help-finding-obsolete-motorola-43121-transistor.html)
and another match: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43120.shtml (http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43120.shtml)
43045 & 43054 are mentioned on the second-to-last page here: http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Amplifiers/Service%20Manual/EV%201144A%20Service%20Data.pdf (http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Amplifiers/Service%20Manual/EV%201144A%20Service%20Data.pdf)
and here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43040.shtml (http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43040.shtml)
43173, 43174, 43175 & 43176 datasheets here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43160.shtml (http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43160.shtml)
Quote from: Keppy on May 12, 2011, 09:13:46 PM
Quote from: digi2t on May 12, 2011, 07:18:50 PM
I've been trying to track down equivilant numbers for the trannies, but it's like hen's teeth. I looked up 43121, and nada, zero, ziltch.
2N2646 datasheet here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/2/N/2/6/2N2646.shtml (http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/2/N/2/6/2N2646.shtml)
Here's a thread about the 43121: http://www.electro-tech-online.com/datasheets-manuals-parts/94334-help-finding-obsolete-motorola-43121-transistor.html (http://www.electro-tech-online.com/datasheets-manuals-parts/94334-help-finding-obsolete-motorola-43121-transistor.html)
and another match: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43120.shtml (http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43120.shtml)
43045 & 43054 are mentioned on the second-to-last page here: http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Amplifiers/Service%20Manual/EV%201144A%20Service%20Data.pdf (http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Amplifiers/Service%20Manual/EV%201144A%20Service%20Data.pdf)
and here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43040.shtml (http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43040.shtml)
43173, 43174, 43175 & 43176 datasheets here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43160.shtml (http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43160.shtml)
Keppy.... what can I say, you're the man. Guess I was looking in all the wrong places.
Cheers,
Dino
awesome, awesome work, guys!!!!!!!!!!
you rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
if i paid for the expense of making and shipping a pcb for this so i can try and build it, could anybody help me out?
i think it's a little too complex for me to try and veroboard it.
thanks!!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 14, 2011, 10:43:55 AM
if i paid for the expense of making and shipping a pcb for this so i can try and build it, could anybody help me out?
i think it's a little too complex for me to try and veroboard it.
thanks!!
I'm in on that.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 14, 2011, 10:43:55 AM
if i paid for the expense of making and shipping a pcb for this so i can try and build it, could anybody help me out?
i think it's a little too complex for me to try and veroboard it.
thanks!!
Yeah, I learned pretty quickly that this layout is not on any kind of grid, totally wrong for vero.
Quote from: wavley on May 14, 2011, 06:34:02 PM
I'm in on that.
Do you mean you want a PCB, or you're willing to make one? If you guys want boards, I could probably whip some up. Are you in the US, Jimi?
Please note that the boards I have are only 3" x 5", so I'm unable to scale up the spacing on the layouts for .4" resistor leads. If you're cool with .3", I can do it. Are you guys just going to socket all the transistors so you can see what works, or do you have a source for the original parts?
hi keppy,
yah, i'm in the us, in connecticut.
i don't mind a shorter spacing, can always stand resistors etc up. i would really appreciate it!
about how much would you need bro?
thanks!! :thu:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 14, 2011, 07:56:56 PM
hi keppy,
yah, i'm in the us, in connecticut.
i don't mind a shorter spacing, can always stand resistors etc up. i would really appreciate it!
about how much would you need bro?
thanks!! :thu:
I'd say about $15 should do it. I use photosensitized boards, and it will take 3 of them to do two sets of boards for the Phase II. However...
I WILL NOT SELL ANY OF THESE BOARDS UNTIL SOMEONE ELSE CHECKS MY LAYOUTS AGAINST THE SCHEM!
I just found four separate mistakes glancing at my work. This, after I double-checked both layouts already. As I have no wish to take anyone's money in exchange for a non-working pcb, I'd really appreciate someone's independent verification that these appear likely to work.
Here are the corrected layouts:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/LudwigPhaseIItopLAYOUT.jpg)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/LudwigPhaseIIbottomLAYOUT.jpg)
Just as a suggestion; it's really helped me before if I printed out on paper the PCB layout I intended to use and tried to stuff the actual parts into the "holes" in the pads. This has a way of turning up little spacing problems for you.
gotcha, keppy...thanks man...i don't really know enough yet to tell if it's right or wrong!!
pm'd ya my contact info...i hope someone can verify this, i really wanna start trying to source the proper parts and get a bom happening.
;)
Quote from: R.G. on May 14, 2011, 09:19:03 PM
Just as a suggestion; it's really helped me before if I printed out on paper the PCB layout I intended to use and tried to stuff the actual parts into the "holes" in the pads. This has a way of turning up little spacing problems for you.
Thanks R.G., I'll check it out. The problems I found were trace connections though, not spacing. I'd still like another set of eyes to check against the schems.
for the +35V. can't you just use a 18V laptop power supply with a voltage doubler? cheap and easy.
Quote from: Keppy on May 14, 2011, 08:47:22 PM
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 14, 2011, 07:56:56 PM
hi keppy,
yah, i'm in the us, in connecticut.
i don't mind a shorter spacing, can always stand resistors etc up. i would really appreciate it!
about how much would you need bro?
thanks!! :thu:
I'd say about $15 should do it. I use photosensitized boards, and it will take 3 of them to do two sets of boards for the Phase II. However...
I WILL NOT SELL ANY OF THESE BOARDS UNTIL SOMEONE ELSE CHECKS MY LAYOUTS AGAINST THE SCHEM!
I just found four separate mistakes glancing at my work. This, after I double-checked both layouts already. As I have no wish to take anyone's money in exchange for a non-working pcb, I'd really appreciate someone's independent verification that these appear likely to work.
Here are the corrected layouts:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/LudwigPhaseIItopLAYOUT.jpg)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/LudwigPhaseIIbottomLAYOUT.jpg)
I`ve spent the last couple of days analysing the posibility of vero`ing this, but I agree, it would be unmanagable. I`ve made contact with someone here in Canada who has one, and I`ve sent him an email asking if he would be comfortable with opening his up, and taking a snapshot of the trace side of the big board. Maybe I`m wrong, but I don`t believe I`ve seen any pics of that side of that board. I haven`t gotten a response yet.
Keppy, insofar as buying your boards, I`m in as well. Please PM me with payment details once the boards are verified. I`m in Canada btw.
Cheers,
Dino
OK... update.
I`ve sold my house, and I`ve got some cash to invest. I`ve made an offer on a unit, and I`m awaiting a reply. If accepted, I`ll have it by the 2nd week of June. If I get my hands on this sucker, I`d be willing to be the goto guy for pics, measurements, dmm readings, whatever. I`m not afraid to do a bit of poking and proding for a great cause such as this. Let`s cross our collective fingers.
Long live the brotherhood of the stompbox ;D
Cheers,
Dino
dino...and keppy....you are godlyke!!!!!!!!!!!
;)
all ya'll are!
i don't have a printer and am broke til this weekend's gig, and will take the stuff out to get it printed and try to the best of my limited ability to go over the board.
if i can borrow some cash from my girlfriend i'll try to do it today if i can.
thanks to all!!!!!!!!!
Another update....
GOOD NEWS!!! Negotiations are complete... and successful! :D ;D :icon_biggrin: :icon_lol: :icon_smile: :icon_surprised: :icon_mrgreen: I should have it in my hot little hands by the 2nd week of June.
I`ll post when I`ve got it, and I`ll be on standby for pics and info from any and all.
I would really love to make this piece of the pope`s shit available to everyone. Who knows, maybe some really bright minds out there will come up with some cool mods as well. A "diystompbox centerpiece" of sorts.
Cheers,
Dino
AWESOMENESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
Okay, so here's my deal with the boards: I'm going out of town next week. With what I have on hand, I can make two sets of boards this week IF someone checks my work before next weekend. Jimi gets one, Dino or wavley gets the other. I'm still not sure if wavley wants a set or was offering to make a set, and I don't know if Dino still wants a set as he's buying an original unit (nice work, by the way!). Anyone else will have to wait until June if they want boards from me (unless both of those guys decline to buy them). If anyone else wants to offer to make pcbs in the meantime, that'd be great too!
Keppy, I`ll make a deal with you. Why not hold off right now, until I get the real mc coy. Since you were straight-up about making the boards, I figure that it would only be fair that I offer you good pics and info from the unit. That way, we`ll have the board traces and wiring info to go with it.
It`s a bit like the story of the young bull, and the old bull. Hey pops, lets run down there and screw us a cow! No son, we`ll walk, and screw them all.
Cheers,
Dino
keppy, i definitely will buy the boards from you, but i have to agree with dino, if that's cool...
i wanna make sure we get this thing right!!
i am so psyched i'm speechless...to see this thing ride again!!
and dino...well done, mate...holy cow...i think you're really gonna dig it, for sure!!
;)
Quote from: digi2t on May 15, 2011, 05:39:16 PM
Keppy, I`ll make a deal with you. Why not hold off right now, until I get the real mc coy. Since you were straight-up about making the boards, I figure that it would only be fair that I offer you good pics and info from the unit. That way, we`ll have the board traces and wiring info to go with it.
Sounds good.
Quote from: digi2t on May 15, 2011, 05:39:16 PM
It`s a bit like the story of the young bull, and the old bull. Hey pops, lets run down there and screw us a cow! No son, we`ll walk, and screw them all.
Just what part of Canada are you from? :icon_mrgreen:
No problem guys. Personally, I love noise makers. I started playing guitar when I was 14, and I'm 46 now. I still remember my first exposure to the likes of Belew and Fripp, it simply blew my mind. Since then, I constantly strive to make my guitar sound anything but like a guitar. The more research I did on this baby, the more I thought that it would be a good investment (sound, as well as money), and it would really give a leg up to the stompbox community if we could peel this onion open. I'm no electronics genius, but I'm happy to learn, contribute, share, and most of all, participate. I know I'm about to drop some major coin here (apart from the GT-PRO, and Geiger Counter I bought last week! :icon_mrgreen:), but I feel it's going to be worth it for everybody, including myself.
Besides, good karma dictates that you only get out, what you put in. I believe it.
Keppy, I'm in Quebec. Yeah, we got bulls and cows here too. 'Cept they all moo in both official languages :icon_razz:
Cheers guys!
Dino
dino,
i can't think of a more deserving cat....i know you're gonna love it!! :icon_biggrin:
holy sheet, it looks like i may have a line on one now, too...my old drummer saw on facebook that we're trying to clone one, says he knows where i can find one... :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
we'll see. keepin my fingers and toes...hell, even my eyes...crossed... :icon_twisted:
If he saw it on Kijiji, and the guy is in Toronto, Ontario, forget it. It`s spoken for :icon_mrgreen:.
If not... I`m praying hard for ya bro!
lol..nope, this guy's in new haven connecticut, thanks for the prayers, bro!!!
it'll probably be wayyyyy more than i can afford, guess i better get used to wearing kneepads...lol
Quote from: Keppy on May 15, 2011, 05:29:40 PM
Okay, so here's my deal with the boards: I'm going out of town next week. With what I have on hand, I can make two sets of boards this week IF someone checks my work before next weekend. Jimi gets one, Dino or wavley gets the other. I'm still not sure if wavley wants a set or was offering to make a set, and I don't know if Dino still wants a set as he's buying an original unit (nice work, by the way!). Anyone else will have to wait until June if they want boards from me (unless both of those guys decline to buy them). If anyone else wants to offer to make pcbs in the meantime, that'd be great too!
I'm up for buying a set, I don't have a lot of time right now so etching boards isn't really in the cards, even if I buy boards it may be a few months before I can get to stuffing them. I agree with the others, let's wait and get some more gut shots and whatnot.
if my friend steve indeed hooks me up, i'll tear it down and get shots or scans of everything in it. even if i get the real mccoy i still wanna build one!!
;)
dudes!!!! my bro has one, been in his garage from a trade back in 1980, :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
working out the details now, i may be able to trade him one of my firebirds for it...
i'm waiting to hear back from him....holy fugging sheet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
Guess someone upstairs heard my prayers :icon_biggrin:
Jimi, I agree with you insofar as building clones are considered. Would go a long way to saving wear and tear on the originals. Besides, now we`ll be able to compare notes on trimpot settings, sound, etc. Would also give wanna-cloners a good resource.
On another front, I found an amp shop in Colorado on the net, which lists itself as having experience in servicing/repairing these babies. I fired off an email to them asking (politely... very politely ::)) if he had any info he would be willing to share with us. No reply as of yet, but I`m back to praying again.
I also noted that another thread has started on this baby. Jimi, you seem to have poked a lot of folks in the ass with this sucker. Good... the more, the merrier. I have a feeling that we better brace ourselves for a flood of PM`s.
Just wondering out loud here.
I wonder if we could condense, and marry, the boards together, if we could shoe-horn this sucker into a Morley style pedal/enclosure. Use 16mm pots, and mini switches and all. It seems to me that the box part of a Morley is quite large. There are 4 foot switches surrounding the pedal on the original, one of which is the bypass (I think). The bypass on the Morley is under the pedal, so one down, only 3 to place. Or, piggyback a 1590A box onto the lower edge for the 3 remaining switches.
Any thoughts?
Dino
thanks dino...the prayers worked!!
still waiting to hear back from steve, but if i'm lucky, i'll be able to trade some stuff off for it.
man!! i wish i still had my micro moog!! that's what this pedal was really meant for, to interface with analog synths.
when you get yours, be careful...these things have about a 15 watt preamp in them, and can blow up stuff ya plug in if ya run it too hot.
as for pm's, when i get it, they will be welcome.
when i get the piece, if it works still, and even if it doesn't, (and even if all i can do is look at it, if he doesn't decide to give it up) i'll take pics and try to get as much detail as possible...voltages, connections, etc.
i WANT this thing to be available to everyone....screw paying a couple grand on ebay to some scuzzball that doesn't care what they got and is just trying to make as much coin as possible.
this needs to be in the hands of musicians, and be used, not sit in some collection in japan or whatever.
as they say...stay tuned!!
;)
Quote from: digi2t on May 16, 2011, 11:54:55 AM
...
I also noted that another thread has started on this baby.
Dem dudez don` click anymore...
Ya saw teh date of dat thread (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=58652.0), and what reply#39 waz all about (http://www.google.com.tw/patents/download/3688010_TONE_MODULATION_SYSTEM.pdf?id=PM05AAAAEBAJ&output=pdf&sig=ACfU3U3T6YqBLGbN1vWDQl1ZGwv-NDfZzg&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0) ???
Got a reply from Glen, the guy in Colorodo. Here it is;
Hello dino,
I also don't know of any 'setup' manual for these. I have developed a minor alignment for a few of the trimmer adjustments out of necessity to repair one pedal that one function wasn't working, but haven't messed with the rest of them. As many adjustments as there are, it's better to leave those 'sleeping dogs' alone until the need arises.
I think one guy who sent me one to repair researched it & there are only something like 200 ever made & only a handful know to still exist.
Most of the issues with these comes from bad connections & dirty switches. Frankly with these pedals if it's working, I wouldn't mess with the internal adjustments.
Yes I also have the schematics, tho they are a bit difficult to follow from the pedal board to the top control board. We've got that pretty much worked out, tho.
We can certainly perform all the P.M. on the pedal of the things we know are or become issues.
Thanx, glen
All in all, pretty cool dude. I'm pretty sure that he's right about what could go wrong with it. Basically, anything mechanical should be verified, babied, or strengthened. Other than that, should be bullet proof. Still, we should get careful measurements of any and all parameters in stock form.
We're gonna break this sucker wide open. I know it.
the biggest obstacle was the footswitches were impossible to replace back in the day...that was why i gave mine up. now, they are easily replaceable.
they're pretty much built like tanks, so with a little luck...
i'm imagining, we're gonna wanna use rotary pots rather than the original slider pots, as they are a lot more use-worthy. and it may be hard to make the switches change color...
but screw the eye candy, function is always more important than appearance!
man....waiting for steve to call me back is fu**in' killin' me!!!!!!
;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 16, 2011, 02:44:24 PM
the biggest obstacle was the footswitches were impossible to replace back in the day...that was why i gave mine up. now, they are easily replaceable.
they're pretty much built like tanks, so with a little luck...
i'm imagining, we're gonna wanna use rotary pots rather than the original slider pots, as they are a lot more use-worthy. and it may be hard to make the switches change color...
but screw the eye candy, function is always more important than appearance!
man....waiting for steve to call me back is fu**in' killin' me!!!!!!
;)
Dude... how do yu think I feel? I gotta wait until June for freak sake. My only solace is that the GT PRO AND the Geiger Counter showed up today. That should keep my squirming little toad of a mind occupied for a while.
Actually I saw a post a while back where a guy had clear dice pot knobs lit up with LED's. It was really cool. I think it's in the photos section. Personally, I prefer function over form. Hell, I don't even bother painting or labeling any more. Leaves everyone wondering "What the hell kind of pedal is THAT!!!". Drives my nephew up the wall. :icon_smile: :icon_smile: :icon_smile:
lol...i hear ya bro.
but think about it...i've known this guy for over 30 years, and been looking for this thing, and he's had one the whole time!!
lol
it's all good tho, i got some projects to keep me occupied in the mean time...hang in there brother!!!
it's all gonna be good soon!!!
maybe we can do a collab and record an album featuring the ludwig, and make enough cake where we can buy the other 198 of 'em...lol
Actually, funny you mention the collab thing. I was driving home from work today, and I had a bit of a mind bender. I thought it would be cool if someone would come up with and record a riff, or a loop, featuring one of their diy pedals. Then post it, making it available to the rest of the community. Anybody who wanted to, would then be able to download it, and add a track(s) to it, but (here's the kicker), it would have to be with a different diy pedal(s). They could either layer the same riff, or harmonize to it, whatever. Then, like a chain, someone else could add to it, and so on.
Not only would it get everyone playing together, but it would be interesting to hear all the different sound textures come together. A bit like the 1000 monkeys, with 1000 typewriters, writing Shakespeare theory :icon_mrgreen:
And no... I was not drinking while I was driving :icon_lol:
lol...cool idea! :icon_mrgreen:
Ok, here is a link to scans of the switch info I have (sorry that I'm not clever enough to figure out how to embed images right now):
https://picasaweb.google.com/Ryland.Hoffman/LudwigSwitchInfo?authkey=Gv1sRgCKTO9dHH0c2qhgE# (https://picasaweb.google.com/Ryland.Hoffman/LudwigSwitchInfo?authkey=Gv1sRgCKTO9dHH0c2qhgE#)
Ry
RIGHTEOUS, BRO...THANK YOU!!!!!
gonna be wheelin' and dealin' tomorrow...wish me luck!!! :icon_mrgreen:
i'll up the scans...i doubled their size, so they're probably humongous..
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/scan_lw_ph_II_01.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/scan_lw_ph_II_02.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/scan_lw_ph_II_03.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/scan_lw_ph_II_04.jpg)
Doing some research on the illuminated knobs and switches.
http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Switches/Toggle-Switches/SPST-Illuminated-toggle-switch/74543 (http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Switches/Toggle-Switches/SPST-Illuminated-toggle-switch/74543)
and I think that the knob job I saw is here; http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=36392.14140 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=36392.14140) , I hope. I`m at work, and the server is blocking the images.
There is this; http://www.mouser.com/catalog/629/535.pdf (http://www.mouser.com/catalog/629/535.pdf)
http://www.alpha-products.com/cd_catalog/news/Illuminated%20pots%20&%20encoders/illuminated%20pots-n-encoders.htm (http://www.alpha-products.com/cd_catalog/news/Illuminated%20pots%20&%20encoders/illuminated%20pots-n-encoders.htm)
http://www.alphapotentiometers.net/html/illuminated_slide_pot_1.html (http://www.alphapotentiometers.net/html/illuminated_slide_pot_1.html)
Cheers,
Dino
the switches look hip! no pic in that page tho...the knobs on it are all sliders.
gonna call steve momentarily...wish me luck!! ;D
SCHAWINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I GOT THE PEDAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'M PICKING IT UP NEXT WEEK AT A GIG I'M PLAYING, TRADING MY OLD TELECASTER FOR IT!!!
and dig....when i build the guy a clone, i get my freekin' guitar back!!!
how wack is that sh**??????????????????????
and...it appears it was the one i thought was lost in the crash in arizona...he traded it from the guy about the time it was supposedly lost...
gotta fix one footswitch, and the formant switch is broken, but working.
dude....i am blown away...
all this from dino's prayer and some good karma for a charitable act.
almost enough to make my agnostic pagan ass believe in god.
anyways...will have pics and deets, and will answer any and all possible questions when the time comes!!!!
i am fugging freakin right the fugg out!!!!!!!!!!!!
yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehawwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_razz: :icon_surprised: :icon_lol: :icon_eek: :icon_biggrin: :icon_cool: :icon_cool: :icon_cool: :icon_mrgreen:
CONGRATS DUDE. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Glad I could help.
Now we got to get cracking on a clone so you can get your Tele back. JEEEEEZZZZ I can`t wait to get mine. I`m really looking forward to cracking that sucker open, and comparing notes with you.
I`ve been contemplating enclosures, and I came across this; http://www.pedalenclosures.com/Products/tabid/69/c/Prism-II-enclosures/CategoryID/5/Default.aspx (http://www.pedalenclosures.com/Products/tabid/69/c/Prism-II-enclosures/CategoryID/5/Default.aspx)
Maybe with a treadle on top in the center.
:icon_mrgreen:
those look great, i just wonder if they'll be wide enough?
can't wait to get this thing cloned, and pump some out for friends. maybe we could offer it in a kit form down the road or something for those who don't wanna
go thru all the hassle of sourcing parts.
and if r.g. is as right as he usually (read: always, lol) is, we may be able to even simplify the circuit and come up with an improvement!!
i can't believe how much i've already learned on the forum...and i learn more every day!!
wellp...talk later brother, i just got back with parts to clone a magnavibe....yes, i'm an addict!
;)
hi guys, avidly following this thread!
re: box/treadle - how about a simple jack exp pedal input?
*edit* which could also be used for ldr/lfo type input?
good idea, actually...but would be nice to have it all in one unit for durability.
i was kinda thinking a metal box, sloped front, with a crybaby shell bolted right to it.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 17, 2011, 07:24:59 PM
good idea, actually...but would be nice to have it all in one unit for durability.
i was kinda thinking a metal box, sloped front, with a crybaby shell bolted right to it.
for durability i would have thought that the more parts involved the more likely something may go wrong? like the all in one hi-fi vs separates. treadle most likely part to go wonky therefore make it easily replaceable? (and user tweakable? plus ldr/lfo input idea) just thinking outloud.
I've been on the trail of this pedal for 12 years. I'm glad that I may be able to have a clone soon! ;D
blimey you guys have found 2.. amazing, :icon_eek:
hi rob...the amazing thing is they only made about 200, and i know of at least 5 that went out in trash from some local schools. :icon_eek:
but hopefully soon, everybody who wants one will be able to!!!! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 18, 2011, 08:33:00 AM
5 that went out in trash from some local schools. :icon_eek:
but hopefully soon, everybody who wants one will be able to!!!! :icon_mrgreen:
shame on them.......its going to be great to see an old phoenix rise out of the ashes!...good work guys!.. :icon_cool:
dude, i am sooooooooooo antsy i'm ready to just drive down to get it~!
;p
Congratulations dude. I hope you've got a camera with Macro mode and a multimeter ready :)
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I should have mine next week. Had a stroke of luck. Won't have to wait till June.
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 18, 2011, 08:33:00 AM
hi rob...the amazing thing is they only made about 200, and i know of at least 5 that went out in trash from some local schools. :icon_eek:
but hopefully soon, everybody who wants one will be able to!!!! :icon_mrgreen:
Back 10 years ago when I was shopping around for a Fender Rhodes, a local high school threw away not one, but FOUR Rhodes pianos AND a couple of student model Wurlitzer 200a's. When I heard that, I nearly offed myself... Especially later when I paid $800 for my suitcase piano.
BTW guys, I'd be will to be a guinea pig on this project. I'm not totally into this effect like you guys are, but it looks like it would be a fun build, so I'd definitely buy all the parts and whatnot and build one in the name of getting it going.
Quote from: thedefog on May 19, 2011, 10:48:01 AM
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 18, 2011, 08:33:00 AM
hi rob...the amazing thing is they only made about 200, and i know of at least 5 that went out in trash from some local schools. :icon_eek:
but hopefully soon, everybody who wants one will be able to!!!! :icon_mrgreen:
Back 10 years ago when I was shopping around for a Fender Rhodes, a local high school threw away not one, but FOUR Rhodes pianos AND a couple of student model Wurlitzer 200a's. When I heard that, I nearly offed myself... Especially later when I paid $800 for my suitcase piano.
BTW guys, I'd be will to be a guinea pig on this project. I'm not totally into this effect like you guys are, but it looks like it would be a fun build, so I'd definitely buy all the parts and whatnot and build one in the name of getting it going.
When I first moved to Florida there was a little shop that had a Mutron Biphase, I told the guy that I wanted it even though it was only half working. He kept trying to convince me to buy this Rocktek one instead because it was smaller and it worked. I insisted that I wanted the Mutron but I didn't get paid until the next day and asked if he would put it in the back for me on our agreed upon price of $40, which he did. The next day I came back and he had the Rocktek set aside for me and said "I did you a favor and threw that old thing away like I should have done years ago, this one is better" I ran outside to his dumpster but it had already been emptied. I really got to know the guy over the years and he genuinely thought he was trying to do me a favor and he really did throw it away (not sell it out from under me)
I guess it's ok, I did buy a Morley Pro Flange from him for $40 because the bulb had burnt out, he loved me because I cleaned out all of his old broken stuff that had been sitting for years. Still, I would have loved to have that biphase.
Quote from: thedefog on May 19, 2011, 10:48:01 AM
BTW guys, I'd be will to be a guinea pig on this project. I'm not totally into this effect like you guys are, but it looks like it would be a fun build, so I'd definitely buy all the parts and whatnot and build one in the name of getting it going.
OK, let's make a battle plan then. I truely think that the best first step should be a mock-up on a bread board. If you're willing to do the mock-up, Jimi and I will provide all the tech info (voltages, resistances, etc.), and photos.
Jimi, since I'm living out of boxes right now, would it be possible for you to do a video, or in depth sound clip? I can do pics, and measurements, but sound is out. All my gear is packed. I was thinking of a video (or sound clip) where you could run a clean signal through the Ludwig, and then manipulate all the controls, one at a time, from one extreme to another. Then we would have a sound reference baseline to work with.
Keppy has already offered to make boards, but I'd like to "measure twice, and cut once" before anyone goes to the trouble. Besides, I'm thinking that we don't need 2 seperate boards. Just one board, with off-board wiring to the pots and switches. A bread board model should give us the opportunity to audition different trannies. I can draw up all the off-board wiring in detail, and post it.
Lets go to war boys!!
I don't think I have a breadboard big enough to do that, but I'd be willing to etch it and I can put sockets in place where the more challenging transistor types would be.
I have what I think is a suitable set of formant filters running in the simulator. Takes two LM13700s to replace the two formant filters. There is a beginning at the control voltages for them to do vowels as well, that takes two dual opamps or one quad. I'll have to tinker some more with the filters to get ranges and "trajectories" right, probably.
So, would a modern interpretation use an internal fuzz or just make this a voicing device that used an outside distorter?
Is the parallel/antiparallel formant movement any use or is the real value here the formant/vowel sounds?
Is selection of only one or the other of the reaonant filters by itself for an odd kind of wah useful?
I think all that (except the fuzz) goes into one CD405x switch chip or an 8 pin PIC.
R.G., as much as I have learned from you and your site, you're still WAY outta my league. Personally, I figured that cloning it, and keeping it "old school" would be a good start, and would also help me in my continuing electronics education. Not to mention the fact that this will make a great collaborative effort between total strangers, who have at least one thing in common :icon_lol:.
If you want to take the IC approach, that would be really cool as well. As I mentioned before, I'm more than willing to provide whatever info I can, although my experience may be somewhat limited. I even have access to a PC oscilliscope, if that helps. I could provide you with scope shots, provided you guide me through it if necessary.
Cheers,
Dino
Oh, don't take my nattering as any kind of diversion from a clone. You guys need to make this work. My interests are much more in the design than actually having a working clone.
Once someone gets a real one or a clone working, it will be interesting to see if it matches what I think it should be doing.
Or if it matches the several generations of schematics. I put those schemos into the circuit simulator to see what they do, but have yet to be able to get them to act like filters. Probably something about the circuit I'm missing.
Quote from: R.G. on May 19, 2011, 04:38:56 PM
I have what I think is a suitable set of formant filters running in the simulator. Takes two LM13700s to replace the two formant filters. There is a beginning at the control voltages for them to do vowels as well, that takes two dual opamps or one quad. I'll have to tinker some more with the filters to get ranges and "trajectories" right, probably.
So, would a modern interpretation use an internal fuzz or just make this a voicing device that used an outside distorter?
Is the parallel/antiparallel formant movement any use or is the real value here the formant/vowel sounds?
Is selection of only one or the other of the reaonant filters by itself for an odd kind of wah useful?
I think all that (except the fuzz) goes into one CD405x switch chip or an 8 pin PIC.
Quote from: digi2t on May 19, 2011, 05:19:32 PM
R.G., as much as I have learned from you and your site, you're still WAY outta my league. Personally, I figured that cloning it, and keeping it "old school" would be a good start, and would also help me in my continuing electronics education. Not to mention the fact that this will make a great collaborative effort between total strangers, who have at least one thing in common :icon_lol:.
If you want to take the IC approach, that would be really cool as well. As I mentioned before, I'm more than willing to provide whatever info I can, although my experience may be somewhat limited. I even have access to a PC oscilliscope, if that helps. I could provide you with scope shots, provided you guide me through it if necessary.
Cheers,
Dino
As I've said, I'm in favor of a workalike clone, but perhaps with ICs for a simpler, more reliable build. I don't think any of us will know what kind of mods we'll want switchable until we really see what this thing can do stock.
Having said that, if R.G. develops some kind of modified, Frankenstein version of this already monstrous circuit, well...that sounds pretty awesome too :icon_biggrin:
MMMMMMUUUUUUUUAAAAAHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA....
I should have it next week. The guy is shipping it tomorrow from Toronto, and I'm just outside Montreal, so I figure Thursday or Friday I should get it.
Reviews on this thing are all good good good. I want one.
"I couldn't believe it when my friend from the guitar shop called me and told me they just got in a Ludwig mini-Phase II. I asked if it wasn't in fact the same Ludwig Suitcase Phaser that Sonic Youth used on the Diamond Sea & he said "No it's way smaller than that & we think it's older, in fact we've never seen one, we can't find any info on it & it's broken". My heart jumped because I'm the only guy in town that fixes pedals. so after looking it over & bartering a little they let me have it for $40, oh man! It was sooooo worth the $5 transformer & the 1/2 hour worth of work. This thing is sooooooooooo lush & weird, it has most of the sounds on the Suitcase Phase II, and to be honest it's actually cooler in that it has C/V outs for Depth, Width, Resonance, regeneration, Noise, and a built in threadle for Speed. Another cool feature is the speed ramping (this allows it to speed up and slow down like a Leslie Cabinet."
Quote from: digi2t on May 19, 2011, 12:10:24 PM
Quote from: thedefog on May 19, 2011, 10:48:01 AM
BTW guys, I'd be will to be a guinea pig on this project. I'm not totally into this effect like you guys are, but it looks like it would be a fun build, so I'd definitely buy all the parts and whatnot and build one in the name of getting it going.
OK, let's make a battle plan then. I truely think that the best first step should be a mock-up on a bread board. If you're willing to do the mock-up, Jimi and I will provide all the tech info (voltages, resistances, etc.), and photos.
Jimi, since I'm living out of boxes right now, would it be possible for you to do a video, or in depth sound clip? I can do pics, and measurements, but sound is out. All my gear is packed. I was thinking of a video (or sound clip) where you could run a clean signal through the Ludwig, and then manipulate all the controls, one at a time, from one extreme to another. Then we would have a sound reference baseline to work with.
Keppy has already offered to make boards, but I'd like to "measure twice, and cut once" before anyone goes to the trouble. Besides, I'm thinking that we don't need 2 seperate boards. Just one board, with off-board wiring to the pots and switches. A bread board model should give us the opportunity to audition different trannies. I can draw up all the off-board wiring in detail, and post it.
Lets go to war boys!!
dino, soon as i get it, i will do my best to make a video...let's hope it''s a working example!!
Quote from: R.G. on May 19, 2011, 04:38:56 PM
I have what I think is a suitable set of formant filters running in the simulator. Takes two LM13700s to replace the two formant filters. There is a beginning at the control voltages for them to do vowels as well, that takes two dual opamps or one quad. I'll have to tinker some more with the filters to get ranges and "trajectories" right, probably.
So, would a modern interpretation use an internal fuzz or just make this a voicing device that used an outside distorter?
Is the parallel/antiparallel formant movement any use or is the real value here the formant/vowel sounds?
Is selection of only one or the other of the reaonant filters by itself for an odd kind of wah useful?
I think all that (except the fuzz) goes into one CD405x switch chip or an 8 pin PIC.
there's an internal fuzz already, but it's more of a buzzbox kind of fuzz...sounds great with the other stuff, but pretty crappy on it's own.
the formant filter ideas sound hip, r.g.
as for the rest, i guess we gotta figure it out when dino and i get them in...the wah was good as i recall, but it's real strength was the phasey vowel sounds.
remember, this was designed to be an analog interface to control voltage inputs on analog synths for vocals, guitar, drums or what have you...it's not supposed to be a guitar effect, that's more a happy accident i think.
Quote from: digi2t on May 19, 2011, 09:55:12 PM
MMMMMMUUUUUUUUAAAAAHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA....
I should have it next week. The guy is shipping it tomorrow from Toronto, and I'm just outside Montreal, so I figure Thursday or Friday I should get it.
that is so awesome bro....looks like we'll be getting them around the same time!!! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: buildafriend on May 20, 2011, 12:25:50 AM
Reviews on this thing are all good good good. I want one.
"I couldn't believe it when my friend from the guitar shop called me and told me they just got in a Ludwig mini-Phase II. I asked if it wasn't in fact the same Ludwig Suitcase Phaser that Sonic Youth used on the Diamond Sea & he said "No it's way smaller than that & we think it's older, in fact we've never seen one, we can't find any info on it & it's broken". My heart jumped because I'm the only guy in town that fixes pedals. so after looking it over & bartering a little they let me have it for $40, oh man! It was sooooo worth the $5 transformer & the 1/2 hour worth of work. This thing is sooooooooooo lush & weird, it has most of the sounds on the Suitcase Phase II, and to be honest it's actually cooler in that it has C/V outs for Depth, Width, Resonance, regeneration, Noise, and a built in threadle for Speed. Another cool feature is the speed ramping (this allows it to speed up and slow down like a Leslie Cabinet."
that's hip dude!!
sounds like that's one to clone, too!! but...i believe that may have been later than the phase II, and even more of a hen's tooth!!!
Hmmm, Harmony Central lists 2 reviews, one for the Phase II, and another for a Mini-Phase. Don't know what the mini looks like, but I haven't had time to research it though.
diggety...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rScBRKlTdoE/TKV-ug038zI/AAAAAAABkOo/PKFYKwJMFOM/s1600/369109814_o.jpg)
researching it, it appears more than 1000 were made, as one i saw listed on an old auction site had the serial number of 1009.
there's about 200 known of apparently, and maybe 50 working specimens in the wild, sure there's more than that.
sad to think how many are buried alive, slowly rotting surrounded by detritus in dumps across the country. :icon_evil:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 20, 2011, 02:51:04 PM
diggety...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rScBRKlTdoE/TKV-ug038zI/AAAAAAABkOo/PKFYKwJMFOM/s1600/369109814_o.jpg)
I'm really diggin' the Ravi Shankar pose, and the Leona Boyd grip. Yeeeeaaaahhhhhhhh maaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnn!
OK.... this is just tooooo much for me. Got it today, and I could only handle about 20 minutes with it. There's just WAY too much mojo there for any one man to handle sanely. I'm going to have to take this in, in small doses. I was even to afraid to open the box after I got it from the post office, like some gennie was gonna escape or something. The funniest part was that I couldn't get the top lid open, being too dimwitted to think about sliding the button to the side. Thankfully, my step-daughter was my shining beacon here.
Anyway, Jimi, once you get yours, can you tell me if yours "ticks" or "tocks" when you max the fuzz regen slider (with the switch in BOTH or FUZZ regen.) with the fuzz on? On mine, if the slider is above 5 or 6, it sounds like a wicked LFO bleed. Maybe they were just that way, or maybe someone played with the trimmers.
Pictures coming soon.
Whatever you do, DO NOT get a Geiger Counter, and a Phase II in the span of a week! It's just too much. Man... I gotta sit down, I think my nose is bleeding....
dino,
i believe that was called "fuzz repeat" that you're describing, and i believe it's an intentional feature.
breathe man, and take your time with it...lol. i get mine on friday, steve is showing up at my gig about 11 pm...just in time for the second set to be just about to start, so i'll be like,
this is the LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST SET IN THE HISTORY OF MAN...or it will seem like it.
and it will be all i can do to not just plug it in right then and there!!!
unfortunately, i'm gonna have to do some repair work...at least one slider and one foot switch is broken he says.
but he believes it's stuck ON. i can live with that.
as soon as i can get it home, bet i will do all so we can compare notes bro...
this is almost too much mojo for ME to handle, knowing how psyched you are!!!
have fun bro!!!! ;)
make that thing talk!!!! ;)
i've gotta debug that hofner buzzbox...the schematic, as written can't possibly be right!! ;)
Yup, fuzz repeat, that's it. When I have the fuzz on, it ticks big time at over 5 or 6. That's fuzz footswitch ON, fuzz and vocal ON, and selection switch on BOTH or FUZZ REP. Let me know. Took me some time to figure out the "Fast Start" "Slow Start" switch, but I got my head around it. And man, WICKED NASTY FUZZ. Just plain raunchy. I love it.
Well, thanks to keeb, we can stick another one on the "to do" list. The Colorsound Vocalizer. You heard me.... another hen's tooth.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Colorsound20Vocalizer20schematic20-eget.jpg)
Just saw one on EBay at 1200$.
Time to gut that old wah :icon_cool:
The 4136 Quad is also one of the the "CA" specials. High slew and low noise (for the 70s). I believe they are still available on-line.
Thanks Tony, but what the F^%#^#K is a ME.0.49 transistor? I haven't had any luck finding any info yet.
holy sheet, i remember reading about them things!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o
dude, i am freaking a ball of nerves waiting til friday!!! lol!!!!
yah, fuzz repeat is probably the sound you're talking about...if memory serves the speed thing is how fast the modulation kicks in.
the more ya play with it, the more sick stuff you'll find...and that fuzz...some claim it's lame, but to me, it was just the most perfectly obnoxious fuzz of all time!!
;)
we'll compare notes this weekend bro...
got more good news tonite too, my girlfriend is selling her quad so i can get my princeton and my echoplex out of pawn finally...thank god!!
;)
Marry that girl, treat her like a queen, and don't let any man come within 50 paces of her..... especially me! :icon_mrgreen:
lol...you can have her. she fuggin' hates me most of the time. :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
i wish things were better on that front bro...love her to death, but there's some damn near insurmountable issues.
you don't even want to know....trust....
devil take the women, for they never are so easy... ;)
dude...if only you knew just how bad sheet is here right now...
i'll leave the ludwig pedal to the forum in my will if i don't survive the next few days... :'( :'( :'(
life DID suck. now it's better.
here's the thing...i did get the ludwig friday nite. my heart almost stopped beating when i realized before even opening it up that THIS was IT. MINE. THE ONE I TRADED OFF FOR WEED 33 YEARS AGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
how did i know? well, mine was missing the bottom panel...this had cardboard over it, applied by the guy i traded it to that said the switches were impossible to replace...they are just standard (now) dpdt's!
next, it still had the clear 'glow under black light" paint i had applied to it...
and the "fragile" stickers i had gotten from my brother's print shop.
when i opened it up, it was even more obvious. the stereo bypass switch was missing, replaced still with the toggle switch i had added back about 1977. hey, a dpdt switch is a dpdt switch? right?
also, one of the animation sliders was broken. this was it.
anyways, i did plug it in, it is not yet in working condition.
but i DID get it to pass sound, and got a fleeting couple seconds of the infamous OYOYOYOYOYOYOYOYOYOYOY sound, so i'm pretty confident i can repair it.
worthless without pictures, so here's a few:
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3917.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3918.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3919.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3920.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3921.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3922.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3923.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3924.jpg)
more gut shots to come...dino, if you can, i really need to know which wires connect to the lower left footswitch...pics to come.
it's here...now i gotta get it running, then it's tons of shots, a bunch of voltage measurements, and we're on our way, gang!!!
Wow, that is insane. You got your actual pedal back 40 years later.
You need to post some awesome clips so we can all hate you.
well, don't hate me yet....first, i gotta get it working again....then between all of us working together, we can CLONE it, so EVERYONE can have and enjoy it! :icon_lol:
i'm hoping dino can help me determine where the wires that are disconnected go...once that's done, i'll replace all the electrolytics and it should be good to go, hopefully!!
i DID try it the other night...and got it to go YOYOYOYOYOYOYOYOYOYOY for a couple seconds, and it DID pass signal...so i hope it'll be a relatively painless fix!
;)
and all it cost me was my tele that i haven't touched in a year or two... :icon_mrgreen:
33 years later it came back!....brilliant!.. ;)
cant wait to hear it fully working...nice one jimi!... :icon_cool: :icon_cool: :icon_cool: :icon_cool:
thanks rob...with a little luck, tomorrow i hope to get that footswitch fixed...as luck would have it, the diagram posted earlier in the thread here explains where the wires go to!
gonna wait til dino checks in, i think he's too busy playing with his now to talk ith us, lol...but i wanna check in with him as to make sure i get it right.
it's such a trip to have this thing come home...i mean, what are the odds? this was supposed to be lost in a mobile home/tractor trailer accident in arizona in 83...figures the guy i traded it to lied to me, and traded it off for weed...lol.
haha must've been good weed!.. ;D
lmao...dude...i traded it off originally for a half ounce of columbian rainbow and a solid-state 50 watt vox bass amp combo with 2x12's...
if i know my friend, it was probably homegrown, lol... :icon_biggrin:
Hi guys,
This weekend was the final push to empty my house, because I'm signing the papers Wednesday. Haven't had time to play with it :(
Between that, work, and my son's baseball, I'm considering moving to a planet a little further out. One with a longer day!
Anyway, I've already taken some outside shots, but I'm going to crack open the sucker this week. Probably Wednesday night, to photograph the inards. Especially the trace side of the main board, and all the offboard wiring.
Hey Jimi, if you max out the fuzz, and run the fuzz rep on max too, do you get ticking? Mine ticks when I go past 5 or 6 on the slider.
Dino
mine doesn't work yet. the fuzz is out of the equation due to shit being unwired under the treadle. hoping to get to it today.
the ticking i think was normal for the fuzz repeat...it was a "feature"...but i'm thinking ALL the electrolytics need to be replaced, just to be safe...these things are like 40 something years old, and i bet if you're having an issue, that'll be it.
when i get back later, i'll post where the wires are coming from, and the colours, in hopes you can help me tell where they need to go...then, with luck, i can actually see if it's even working, or broken, or just a case of not being connected.
thanks bro
peace
jimi
You guys have no idea how jealous I am! I can't wait to get a clone going...
no worries ry, we're gonna make it happen!! :icon_mrgreen:
ok, finally had a chance to look inside it and mess around. way back when i had the presence of mind (i cannot believe this to this day) to twist together the three wires that actually controlled the output of the effect...i had effect, bypass, and output twisted together, and just put them on a 3pdt switch. it now works, and has bypass!!
one of the wires coming out of the bypass led (if it even actually IS an led) is broken off. that sucks. but the rest are there.
hoping when dino gets a chance, he can shoot me a couple detailed pics of the footswitch wiring so i can get the lights on the left side of the foot board going.
i'm gonna play with it one way or the other to try and figure it out...it looks reasonably easy, but i wanna get it right.
the lights on the fuzz switch on the left are dead. i can live with that. i'm not getting a "tick" as dino describes. it's actually sounding alot like i remembered.
very, very sick. ;)
i'm thinking about replacing the three remaining switches with modern ones tho, as they appear to be kind of intermittent. gonna try some pot cleaner first, and see if it's just grunge and oxydation from years of being stored in a damp garage. if i do replace them, screw it, i think i'll put 'em on ebay as original ludwig phase II footswitches, i have a feeling i'll be able to get enough for them to fund building the clone.
i'm gonna take a cue from RG's geofex site, and take it down to staples and try to color scan the board and layout when i get this thing working. gotta LOT of cleaning to do...switches, sliders etc.
the wah part is working great, the formant filter is frankly making me tumescent, and the fuzz is strong depending on setting...so far, all good. can't seem to get some of the effects i seem to remember out of it, but hey, i was about 17 when i traded it off. my memory is pretty fuzzy.
when i can get a chance soon, hopefully, i'll up a video demo of it so you guys can hear the thing and get a taste of what it sounds like. please don't hate me!! i wanna make sure that this thing gets as restored as possible, and do all i can so anyone who wants one can build it. with luck, we should be able to get a working prototype now that we've got two examples. i don't wanna tear it up too bad to get pics, but believe i can probably get a good shot of both sides of the board if i disconnect the footswitches, balance pots and jacks. hopefully doing so won't end up killing it.
anyways...that's the deets. stay tuned...
Dude, if you get this all worked out, it'll be the first pedal I've built in a coupla years.
I can't wait.
getting closer...i need to identify this component:
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3933.jpg)
here's some more pix
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3925.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3926.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3927.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3928.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3929.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3929.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3930.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3933-1.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3934.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3935.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3936.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3937.jpg)
Incandescent bulb, probably. "Grain of wheat". Almost certainly if that plastic rounded doodad stuck outside the shell where you could see it.
Hey boys,
Prelim pics, including one of the trace side of the motherboard; May take some time to load, because I didn't downsize the pictures. I working on a short demo video, and I've started to trace all the off-board wiring. I soon as I have my DMM out of storage, I'll start taking some readings. Especially at the trimmers, and the marked test points on the diagram.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2002.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2003.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2004.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2005.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2006.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2007.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2008.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2009.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2010.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2011.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2012.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2013.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2014.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2017.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2019.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2015.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2016.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Phase2018.jpg)
I hope that they are clear enough. It's just a cheap Polacrap point and shoot. If anyone needs more pics, or tighter close-ups, just let me know.
Off to shoot the video now.
Cheers,
Dino
Dino,
Excellent pictorial of your project. I think you have done a FANTASTIC job of documenting for a reverse engineer.
Any pictures of the component side of the "smaller" board? I see you posted trace side pics.
awesome dino!!! thanks, i can see clearly how to hook up the disconnected wires. the colour codes on some are different from mine tho, i think...but only on those "grain of wheat" lamps. nice!! speaking of which, the bottom plate of mine is missing, so i forget where the serial number tag was, but it fell out of the inside of the box... the tag says
model no 9000
serial number 1642
supply voltage 120/240 volts
50/60 cycles 15 watts
Hey Lacky,
I didn't concentrate too much on the component sides, since they are laid out along side the schematics on the cover panels. It's pretty much WYSIWYG. I figured it was more important to provide detailed pics of the trace sides (especially the motherboard), so someone could easily verify a clone board. I should mention that there are jumper wires on the component side, but again, clearly marked on the layout drawings.
I have started to play with the trimmers, and basically they tend to define min/max frequencies for various functions i.e. wah frequencies, voice frequencies, rate hi/lo limits, etc. Honestly, I don't believe that there will be any "hard and fast" setup rules insofar as dialing this puppy in is concerned, but I'll try and document what my ears are telling me when I play with them. I don't have any DMM readings, since I've just moved, and most of my sh*t is in boxes or storage. I just marked their positions, and went from there.
Bit of a scare, I was setting up to shoot my video, and I realized that I had lost the fuzz. YIKES!!! Found that a wire had broken off at the solder on the fuzz/voice switch during my explorations. Video will have to wait until I get that repaired. DOAH!!! I have to be gentle with this baby.
Jimi, mine is serial #1277, all the other info is the same. Could it be that they started the serial numbers at 1000? I mean, 1600+ units couldn't just disappear THAT quickly. Maybe it's a case for a giant meteor :icon_mrgreen:
I don't believe that the wire color/polarity for the lamps will matter, since they are incandescent.
Quote from: digi2t on June 01, 2011, 09:41:22 AM
I didn't concentrate too much on the component sides, since they are laid out along side the schematics on the cover panels. It's pretty much WYSIWYG. I figured it was more important to provide detailed pics of the trace sides (especially the motherboard), so someone could easily verify a clone board. I should mention that there are jumper wires on the component side, but again, clearly marked on the layout drawings.
Gotcha! ;) I still want to say that you did a GREAT job with the pics. Very well done!
Quote from: digi2t on June 01, 2011, 09:41:22 AM
I have started to play with the trimmers, and basically they tend to define min/max frequencies for various functions i.e. wah frequencies, voice frequencies, rate hi/lo limits, etc. Honestly, I don't believe that there will be any "hard and fast" setup rules insofar as dialing this puppy in is concerned, but I'll try and document what my ears are telling me when I play with them. I don't have any DMM readings, since I've just moved, and most of my sh*t is in boxes or storage. I just marked their positions, and went from there.
I am sure you are aware but.... these are not MULTITURN trimmers are they? If so, then marking the positions may be moot. Just a thought :icon_wink:
HAHAHAHA....nooo, not multi turn for sure. Big-ass dial trimmers. But, I did want to retain the setup as I got it, until I could really record readings on a DMM, and benchmark everything. I marked everything for my own piece of mind, K.I.S.S., keep it stock stupid :icon_biggrin:
I should point out, the fourth to last, and last pictures go together. That's the control board. Somehow the pics got mixed up. Anyway, i don't mind shooting more, if anyone needs it. I'll keep it apart for now, not only for measurements, but to answer any and all questions.
Well, off to repair the wire, and shoot some video. Jimi, I'll take it into the "ticking zone" at some point, then you'll see what i mean. DAMN IT!!! Why can't you be next door? FUDGE!
ROAD TRIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
just took a voltage reading from the wires going to the lights to ground...reading about 18 volts. so....will i blow out these lamps (5v) if i wire them up? should i try adding a resistor in series or to ground to drop the voltage? the main concern is that all 4 lights on the floor part of the board are wired in series, pretty much daisy chained...the lamps i got are a fraction bigger than the original, but i'm concerned about the voltage thing. i have a feeling they'll be ok, i may be reading it wrong...it's actually 17 volts ac...dumb newbe question, but because they're ac, do you think that means they'll be able to take the higher voltage? nothing else is gonna actually fit out of the ones i looked at...await your advice guys, worst case, i gotta buy some more. the important thing is, the unit is actually working!!!
dino, can you tell what the resistance of the fuzz repeat pot is? i need to replace the slider, it's broken...still useable tho, but i hope to get it in the ball park.
the "mushrooms" on the foot switches mount with an allen screw, and i remember seeing similar buttons somewhere...mouser? allied? the key is, i belive they're available, and should mount right on the button of a standard footswitch.
thanks peeps...
I pretty much read this thread in one go. It is like a real life version of Pawn Stars or some such. 8)
In any case, I am in for making a build of one of these. What can I do to help?
wellp, we're gonna need someone to help make workable circuit boards, and start tracking down parts. i am such a newb i can't even believe i'm involved in this, but am learning at an alarming rate. all i can really do is post pics, take voltages etc, and be a guinea pig for part subs. just stay with us as this unfurls!!
;)
Anyone check the resistor lead spacing yet? How about overall board dimensions?
Jimi, if the bulbs are in series, the voltage should drop at each one, similar to connecting resistors in series. If you're dividing a 17v drop between four bulbs I think you'll be okay. If you're still worried, test them all together at a lower voltage first and I expect you'll find them pretty dim.
Hi guys,
Finally got the video done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6hfEsfgOTA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6hfEsfgOTA)
Pardon the lousy quality, but it pretty well sums up the general operation.
Keppy, what do you need for info. Just name it, I'm leaving the whole unbuttoned for the time being for easy access.
thanks keppy, yah, i think it's gonna be fine once i wire it up. i will get you board dimensions after supper, and resistor lead spacing. thanks for the advice!!
dino....can't wait to see the demo!!
Thanks for the video Dino!
Quote from: digi2t on June 01, 2011, 06:33:45 PM
Hi guys,
Finally got the video done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6hfEsfgOTA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6hfEsfgOTA)
Pardon the lousy quality, but it pretty well sums up the general operation.
Keppy, what do you need for info. Just name it, I'm leaving the whole unbuttoned for the time being for easy access.
I'd love to hear that thing through a Mic'd amp, but a fuzzy picture is better than no picture at all!
Some of the controls, such as the speed control for the lfo, seem to have a pretty low range. If the idea of a clone goes ahead I'd definitely recommend either a bigger resistor value or maybe a switch that adds a high value resistor. Just an idea for those of us who enjoy overmodulating a filter (I bought a Monotron just for it!). Especialy one so curious as the one in this beasht...
nice demo dino...mine does not do the ticking with the fuzz repeat, and mine the light was on on the bypass when the effect is on! wack...they both sound quite a bit different. i'll up a demo soon...yours sounds more like i remember this one sounding a long time ago...
well done bro!! ;)
it lives!! success!!!
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/itlives.png)
thanks to dino for the pictures, awesome, one more thing done....it uses 5 volt grain of wheat lamps, for sure. one more piece of the puzzle...
tomorrow i'm gonna take the top panel off and try and see if i can fix the lamp on the fuzz/voice fuzz switch.
then a lot of cleaning etc...thanks dino and rg and keppy and everyone!! :D
part number ml-683 t-1 standard wire terminal 5.0 volts .060 amps "aircraft lamps" by gc electronics . $2.59 for a pair.
The lamps in the control panel are not the same. They're small, but with screw bases. A real pain to change as well. The lamp holder kind of slips down so you can get a grip on the bulb (yeah.... right!), and makes room for the bulb to come out.
As for the Bypass, I can understand the reasoning. Everything that is on, well, is on. If you're "on" bypass... you can guess the rest. Counter-intuitive by todays standards, but more mojo :icon_razz:.
Jimi, I think you have my footswitch caps dude! I'm missing 3 of the 4. Seriously, I know a machinist, he'll whip me up 3 copies.
dino, i think we can buy them footswitch caps from mouser, allied electronics, a few places...i've seen 'em...i'm gonna surf around and try to find them again. they mount on with an allen screw...they use 'em on kill switches in industrial machines i think...electronic goldmine, allelectronics corp may have them, too. we'll find 'em!!! i can find the little screw in lamps, they had an assortment of them at cables and connectors...just gotta see what the voltage is like. are they all daisy chained like below the footpedals?
the phattest drag is gonna be i'll have to fabricate the bottom panel beneath the footswitch assembly..no WAY in hell i'm gonna find one of them!!
i think you're gonna be surprised how different mine sounds from yours..mine may need to have the trimpots played with some, yours sounds much more like the original way i remember it sounding. mine is a bit darker, but it may be cuz i'm trying it with headphones and a boss gt5...haven't had a chance to plug it in an actual amp yet.
i was gonna measure the board, resistor spacing etc...but i can't find my tape measure, which is crazy cuz i just used it yesterday to install an air conditioner. yikes!!
could ya do me another favor dino please? could you measure the bottom panel for me so i can get a piece of sheet metal cut to size? it may be easier to measure the piece than the cavity...thanks bro, an especially thanks for the pics...they let me get it re-connected. ;)
New layouts, based on the trace side photos posted above. There weren't many changes to make, mostly just ground points that I thought were separately connected to the chassis that turned out to be connected on the boards. The trimpots in the original units are odd, in some cases having four legs. Those I left as I had them, since any clones will use modern trimpots anyway.
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/LudwigPhaseIItopboardlayout.jpg)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/LudwigPhaseIIbottomboardlayout.jpg)
Excellent work Kep. Maybe set the spacing for the trimmers to accomodate upright multi-turns (Bournes). They're a fav of mine. Is there any way we can combine the boards, and reduce the size of this whole deal? I'd like to see this in something slightly larger than a Morley sized pedal, if possible :icon_mrgreen:
Jimi, get you the panel dimensions tonight.
Cheers,
Dino
awesome, simply awesome kep...the weird looking trimmer with the 4 legs is just a variable resistor, if ya mean the one in the center of the large board. it's stamped CTS, and only two of the legs appear to be electronic connections, the other two look like they're just for mounting it to the board...this is the only trimmer that lies horizontal to the board, the rest are vertical.
dino...thanks bro!!! ;)
this thing is gonna live again!!
:D
Hey jimi,
I was perusing the diagram, and those little lamps are fed by a step down resistor on the main board. It's a 3.9 ohm resistor. I can't remember the resistor number, but if you look at the diagram, it's a little side circuit that corresponds to the wire numbers that feed the lamps.
The cover panel dimensions are a trapezoid; 10 1/2" top, 11 1/2" bottom, and 11 11/16" sides. I'll get the hole placements to you tonight. On the esthetic side, I think MacTac has peel and stick "wood-look" adhesive sheet, that you can get on a roll. That would really complete the look. Glue a photo copy of the diagram inside, and your GTG.
Later,
Dino
awesome, dino...thanks again!!
gonna check a local sheet metal guy when i get out later, see how much to cut me a piece. without the bottom, it picks up a LOT of noise and hum!!
:D
Given that there are now two units in captivity, can one of you measure the physical size, length x width, of the PCBs?
That answers Keppy's question of resistor lead spacing and scaling.
For extra credit, measure the distance the typical resistor lead holes are apart.
The fall plate board layout layout I did measures 4.2" by 3.6".
hi R.G., i don't have the unit apart on the top piece, but here's the size of the bottom board, and resistor spacing:
height: 6 and 3/16ths inches
width: 5 inches
resistor spacing, hole to hole: 3/4ths on the 1/2 watt resistors, 7/8ths on the 1 watt resistors.
1/2 inch on the vertical trimmers.
some of the resistors are cc, some metal. most of the non-electrolytics are "tropical fish" types.
this is the bottom board only...maybe dino can get the top dimensions, and verify my measurements.
hope this helps!!!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 02, 2011, 11:33:19 AM
hi R.G., i don't have the unit apart on the top piece, but here's the size of the bottom board, and resistor spacing:
height: 6 and 3/16ths inches
width: 5 inches
resistor spacing, hole to hole: 3/4ths on the 1/2 watt resistors, 7/8ths on the 1 watt resistors.
1/2 inch on the vertical trimmers.
some of the resistors are cc, some metal. most of the non-electrolytics are "tropical fish" types.
this is the bottom board only...maybe dino can get the top dimensions, and verify my measurements.
hope this helps!!!
Will post the top board dimensions tonight.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 02, 2011, 11:33:19 AM
height: 6 and 3/16ths inches
width: 5 inches
OK. That will let Keppy scale his PCB to proper size.
Quoteresistor spacing, hole to hole: 3/4ths on the 1/2 watt resistors, 7/8ths on the 1 watt resistors.
some of the resistors are cc, some metal. most of the non-electrolytics are "tropical fish" types.
I had almost forgoten they spaced them so loosely back then. I used 0.4" resistor spacing, 1/4W resistors for the most part, as well as radial and box-style caps. It cut the PCB size in half. :icon_eek:
r.g., should i measure the resistance of the pots on the bottom board? can i just measure across pins 1 & 3, or do i have to unsolder them to get the readings right? looks like there's a few components mounted on strips too that aren't shown on the schematics, i don't know enough about the disc caps to speculate on what they are, but i can probably get the codes off of them, i think they may be worth adding to the board itself tho ultimately to simplify the whole thing.
the two output jacks are mono, unswitched...the lo z input is a mono switching jack, the high z is mono, switched as well...both appear to just switch tip to ground when nothing is plugged in.
just looked at the little terminal strip, i spoke too soon...it's on the lower left side of the bottom plate, and is a .1mf 50v ceramic disk, and a resistor that's marked yellow, purple, orange and silver....1/2 watt carbon comp. sorry, still enough of a newbe where i have no idea what the value is without looking it up...47k?
on the wah pot, there's a resistor on pins 1 & 2 that reads orange orange orange...33k?
the wah pot reads (without disconnecting anything) 5.7k
the balance (actually a master volume, on the left side of the footboard) reads 9.36....10k, maybe?
the pot on the right side is measuring (lo z balance i think, the things closed up as i type this) 4.43, 5 k? pins 3 & 2 are bridged.
the wah pot looks to be a 1 watt, sealed type, the other two look like standard 1/2 watt pots.
I think you guessed correctly for those resistor values.
If you wanna get an ACCURATE reading on those pots, you will need to remove them from the circuit. You never know what you are reading through when they are in-circuit.
i'll try to disconnect them later then and get it right. thanks bro!
While I'm thinking about it - which resistors are 1W?
only one on the bottom board, on top right corner...orange white, gray, silver...cc resistor r74 on the schematic.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 02, 2011, 01:58:14 PM
only one on the bottom board, on top right corner...orange white, gray, silver...cc resistor r74 on the schematic.
According to schemo on Page 1
R74 = 3.9 ohms
LAMP RESISTOR
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 02, 2011, 11:33:19 AM
height: 6 and 3/16ths inches
width: 5 inches
resistor spacing, hole to hole: 3/4ths on the 1/2 watt resistors, 7/8ths on the 1 watt resistors.
1/2 inch on the vertical trimmers.
Wow, that is some seriously wide spacing! Given those dimensions, I think a clone using modern components would have some ridiculously long leads, particularly on the capacitors. My layout's only about 3 9/16 x 2 7/8. That gives about .3' lead spacing on the resistors and about .2" x .1" on the trimpots, similar to what I've seen in many other layouts. Seems like smaller-than-original dimensions, like mine or R.G.'s, could possibly work better for a clone based on commonly available components, even without any additional modifications. Thoughts?
Quote from: digi2t on June 02, 2011, 06:00:02 AM
Maybe set the spacing for the trimmers to accomodate upright multi-turns (Bournes). They're a fav of mine. Is there any way we can combine the boards, and reduce the size of this whole deal? I'd like to see this in something slightly larger than a Morley sized pedal, if possible :icon_mrgreen:
I haven't used the Bournes trimmers, but my layout should accommodate most units with flexible leads. As far as combining the boards, there's no problem producing the jpeg layout, but it would make for quite a large board. I do not believe my layout can be comfortable scaled down any more than it is (R.G. already thinks it's too small). I believe our best chance for creating a smaller unit lies in redesigning the circuit to use opamps, which would reduce the parts count considerably. Unfortunately, this is beyond my current design knowledge.:icon_redface: If someone could come up with a schem for that, I could attempt a layout, though. :D
Quote from: Keppy on June 02, 2011, 03:30:40 PM
I haven't used the Bournes trimmers, but my layout should accommodate most units with flexible leads. As far as combining the boards, there's no problem producing the jpeg layout, but it would make for quite a large board. I do not believe my layout can be comfortable scaled down any more than it is (R.G. already thinks it's too small). I believe our best chance for creating a smaller unit lies in redesigning the circuit to use opamps, which would reduce the parts count considerably. Unfortunately, this is beyond my current design knowledge.:icon_redface: If someone could come up with a schem for that, I could attempt a layout, though. :D
I imagine this will be very difficult (and highly speculative since different aspects of the circuit may interact) for anyone that doesn't have this beasht infront of them. Either in a full scale clone or the original model. I may be completely wrong (And considering some of the gigantic disembodied floating brains that float around this forum I probably) but I think anything else would be speculative. Anyone really dedicated could always attempt trial and error for each element of the circuit and patchwork it.
But as I've said I'm just an enthusiastic little voyeur for this project, I'm waiting to see people like R.G and P.R.R tear this thing to bits. But considering how utterly unbusy I am at work, I may take a print out of the schematic to work and see what substitutions I can make. It's that or a laptop with CSound on it... :icon_rolleyes:
@Keppy:
I think that you probably want to scale yours up to a lead spacing of at least 0.4" for 1/4W resistors. You can get 1/4W resistors on 0.3" spacing, but it's not good for the leads to bend them that tightly. 1/4W really needs 0.4 or more. 1/2W resistors really need 0.5" spacing minimum. I also did not even consider axial lead caps, but went for radials, 1/4W resistors, and TO-92 transistors to start with.
I multiplied your board size by 4/3 (ratio of 0.4" to 0.3") and I come up with just a bit larger than my layout. They converge. I got the fall plate and console board combined into 4.2" x 5.5". A proto run on that size gives a per-set price of about $20 each.
@digi2t:
I didn't want to try out replicating the whole thing, since I think that most people will want the formant filters but not the fuzz, preferring to sub in their own distortion. I did redesign from concept for two OTA based state variable filters swept from opamp waveshapers on a control pot voltage, then dinked with it until the filter range and motion gave frequencies always inside the formant map. I ordered proto PCBs from this. I'll see how that works out. This was really the push I needed to go ahead and complete the "voice wah" thing from geofex after having to put it aside years ago.
rg...the FUZZ IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE VOICING OF THE EFFECT, imho...it's a unique sounding fuzz, and part of what gives the formants their grit and consonances.
a separate fuzz is fine. can be run into the effect, or after it...but to take it out of the equation may result in less than desirable response.
some say it's "weak", but it's not really...it's hyper distorted and compressed, and very hi-fi sounding, for lack of a better description. it basically sounds so bad, it's good.
my humble advice as a newbe is to breadboard it first with, as i believe it gives the unit a lot of it's "character".
i have a feeling dino will agree with that.
gotta go...the sheet metal bottom panel i ordered is ready to get picked up...i'll explain later...good story!
Yep. I could'a messed up. That's what prototypes are for. :icon_biggrin:
Meanwhile, back at the literal clone, here's what I came up with:
http://geofex.com/FX_images/Ludwig Clone parts placement.pdf (http://geofex.com/FX_images/Ludwig%20Clone%20parts%20placement.pdf)
heh heh...just got back...i have to measure it for the mounting screws and round off the top corners a little, but it fits just about perfectly.
cost me 10 bux.
ok, the story...
i was driving down the road the other day, noticed a sheet metal place...so i stop there, and walk in. the old-timer working there was a guy named frank, he told me he was 72, and used to own the place, but sold it to the new owner 11 years ago. he said even tho he could collect social security, he preferred to work.
nice guy.
i ask him how much to cut a trapezoid piece for the bottom, and give him the dimensions. he says, "well, if it were up to me, i'd just cut it for you out of a piece of scrap, but the c***sucker that owns the place now is gonna screw ya, he'll charge ya 40 bucks for a half hour". sure enough, seconds later he goes..."see that? here comes that c***sucker now". the guy walks in, so i ask how much to make the piece i need. he looks at me without a blink and says "gonna cost ya a half hour, that's fourty FIVE dollars.". i said...like...
ouuuuch!!! i said how much for a piece of scrap big enough to make it out of, and i'll cut it myself?
he says..."10 bux". i say...do ya take plastic? he goes yep, so i follow him up the hill to the plumbing joint up the hill. i pay him, go back down to see frank.
frank goes " i told ya that c***sucker would charge ya 45$!...i'll tell ya what...i'll cut it for you on my own time, and drop it off tomorrow morning on my way to a job".
so i go what do i owe you for YOUR time? "oh, buy me a cup of coffee." ;)
so i'm typing my last post, and the phone rings...it's frank.
"hey, i'm down the street, i got your piece, i was on my way to a job and figured i'd stop and get a donut". so i hop in the car, go down there, and before i even get out of the car, he walks over hands me the piece, and says "screw that c***sucker's 45 dollars."
i go...can i buy you a cup of coffee or something? he's like, naaaah, next time, i gotta go.
how cool is that? lol!!
Quote from: R.G. on June 02, 2011, 04:32:27 PM
@Keppy:
I think that you probably want to scale yours up to a lead spacing of at least 0.4" for 1/4W resistors. You can get 1/4W resistors on 0.3" spacing, but it's not good for the leads to bend them that tightly. 1/4W really needs 0.4 or more. 1/2W resistors really need 0.5" spacing minimum. I also did not even consider axial lead caps, but went for radials, 1/4W resistors, and TO-92 transistors to start with.
Thanks for the tip on the 1/2W resistors. I've never used them before, and failed to account for them. I'll scale up the boards if anyone is interested. I'm still not sure if people would rather have that size or original. Well, except for Dino, who (like me) wants it even smaller. :)
I took the use of radial caps for granted as well, which is one of the reasons I made the layout small. Scaling up adds to the already large lead spacing for those parts. Oh well.
Care to educate us on your choice of transistors?
I'm tellin' ya. Somebody needs to call the networks and make a reality show out of this. :icon_lol:
it's all good, R.G....lol.
it may be better, beats me...the only sure thing is it'll be different!!!
Quote from: Keppy on June 02, 2011, 05:37:30 PM
Care to educate us on your choice of transistors?
I didn't choose them.
What I did was to note that there are only two major versions of pinout for small signal transistors - EBC and ECB. The original was EBC, and I have a big stock of those, so I just made all of them TO-92 with base in the middle.
I *think* the actual transistor should not matter a lot, but there may be some need for matching Hfe or Vbe for the "differential" pairs in the two filters. Don't know yet.
For those of you who have the actual units, it would be interesting to see the printing from the transistors, whatever it is. These were made during a time of rampant "house number" mania, so they may have only numbers like "2384732" that don't translate to commercial types.
The actual transistors from that era varied even more than modern ones do, so it may be that they were hand selected.
the board says EV on it...electro voice, methinks, which would make sense, seeing that ludwig was never really an electronics entity.
not sure of the trannys, but i suspect r.g. may be right, the tops of the trannys are color coded.
i'll try and find a magnifying glass and see if i can make out any of the numbers on them tomorrow if i get a chance.
r.g., i'm confused...is ebc npn and ecb pnp or something? remember, i'm a newbe so i'm a little confused. i do remember running into that with a 2n5088 sub from nte on one of the projects i built...i didn't look at the pinout (beat me now) and couldn't figure out why it didn't work until i noticed that.
anyways...we'll no doubt figure it out soon enough i guess. i'll do my best to try and read the numbers on the trannys, but i have glaucoma so seeing little things can get really dodgy with me. especially now that i no longer ....ummm...."imbibe" in the "cure".
onwards and upwards!!
looks like mike mathews is watching this thread or something...
honestly, may be cheaper for some to just buy this thing...but nowhere near the mojo factor!!
looks like another candidate for clonage...lol
the first setting is close enough to piss me off,,, lol
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 02, 2011, 06:16:56 PM
i'll try and find a magnifying glass and see if i can make out any of the numbers on them tomorrow if i get a chance.
Thanks!
Quoter.g., i'm confused...is ebc npn and ecb pnp or something?
The letters stand for
Emitter,
Base and
Collector. In the TO-92 plastic package, with the pins down and looking at the flat face, the pins are numbered left to right 1-2-3. "EBC" pinout means 1 = emitter, 2 = base, 3 = collector. "ECB" pinout means 1= emitter, 2 = collector, 3 = base. USA "2N" transistors are much more commonly EBC. Japanese "2Sxxxx" and some European BCxxx devices are ECB. Some Euro devices are also CBE, just backwards from "2N". The 2N5088 and 2N3904 are EBC. This has nothing to do with NPN or PNP. Either NPN or PNP can have either pinout.
Quotei'll do my best to try and read the numbers on the trannys, but i have glaucoma so seeing little things can get really dodgy with me.
Sorry to hear that. I started having to have visual help some years back. I highly recommend the magnifying visor from Harbor Freight. They're commonly as little as $5-$7 on sale. I buy a couple every time they are on sale and stash one every place I might need one.
The world is slowly filling up with them... :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: R.G. on June 02, 2011, 06:03:47 PM
For those of you who have the actual units, it would be interesting to see the printing from the transistors, whatever it is. These were made during a time of rampant "house number" mania, so they may have only numbers like "2384732" that don't translate to commercial types.
Did you see the cross-reference links I posted earlier in the thread for the transistor numbers in the schematic? They seemed plausible to me, but I know nothing about transistors from back then (and little about the ones they make now).
great tip, r.g....i'll nab one of them next time i'm at the parts store...i was eyeballing one just the other day for 5 bux, but cash was a little tite so i opted for parts instead/
yah, visual issues suck. for sure. but it could be worse, for sure...i've been pretty lucky it hasn't gotten worse the last few years.
thanks for the explanation of the pinouts...i understand it better now.
i did see your cross reference, keppy...but i, like you, know nada about transistors...this is gonna be in r.g.'s ball park methinks.
as for cross reference, here's a handy page to bookmark...i've had good luck finding esoteric parts so far. don't reccomend any of their ge transistors tho, as the fool things are so leaky you can literally put 'em in backwards, and they'll STILL work!! lol :icon_mrgreen:
semiconductors:
http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf/$$Search?openForm
pretty much everything you could ever hope to find:
http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf?opendatabase
still, mouser and allied probably have better quality and larger inventory, but the nte stuff is common and easy to find.
a couple other possibilities for obscure parts are allelectronics and electronic goldmine.
matter of fact, i think it was at all electronics i saw the "mushroom" buttons a couple years ago, may be worth a re-visit.
peace.
Quote from: Keppy on June 02, 2011, 08:18:50 PM
Did you see the cross-reference links I posted earlier in the thread for the transistor numbers in the schematic? They seemed plausible to me, but I know nothing about transistors from back then (and little about the ones they make now).
I did see that. I took a look at a couple of them and decided that they were "false positive" matches.
Quote2N2646 datasheet here
This is still available, but expensive. I recently adapted the 2N6027 (?) PUT to a similar circuit for replacing the 2N2646 in a Vox repeat percussion application. It's only $0.25.
QuoteHere's a thread about the 43121...and another match: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43120.shtml
The device that link leads to is a 20W power transistor in a TO-220 case. I think it's a false positive.
Quote43045 & 43054 are mentioned on the second-to-last page here: http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Amplifiers/Service%20Manual/EV%201144A%20Service%20Data.pdf
Given that there was a reference to E-V on the boards, and that's an EV service manual, they are probably the same ones, but that just makes them an EV house number.
At least 43054 is listed as "low noise". I'll poke into the SE-4002. One reference I saw says it was made by Farichild, in a TO-106 case, which is the round-top plastic version, not the flat face TO-92. I'd bet on 2N3904 working. Or my favorite, the 2N5088.
Quoteand here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43040.shtml
For this ref, the pointer is to the 2SC3206, which is an NPN in a TO-92, but it's an ECB, and is a 200V device. I think they're all EBCs. The 43054 link points to a 2SC3212, which is an 800V power transistor.
Quote
43173, 43174, 43175 & 43176 datasheets here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43160.shtml
Possibles, but they all have ECB pinouts, and I think that conflicts with the layout.
Anyway that's what put me off those cross references.
do you think these may be the mushroom heads for the foot switches?
http://cmsapps.sea.siemens.com/controls/icc2010/10IndControl_%20pdfs/10IC_10/10_158-161.pdf
http://www.ppsokc.com/parts%20and%20legends.htm
pricey...32 bux apiece!!!
OK, first off, control board size. Sorry, I only had a metric ruler handy. 241mm X 57mm. Hope that's good for you Kep. Resistor spacing is approx. 14mm.
Jimi, holes on the panel are as follows. All holes are 3/16" diameter (hole to hole dimensions are center to center). The 10 1/2" side being the top, the edge distance from the top for the 3 holes is 1/4". One hole on the centerline, and the two holes on either side, 5/16" edge distance to the side. From the center hole, this should give you 4 15/16" between center hole and corner hole.
On the the side (11 11/16"), the middle hole is 5 1/2" below the top corner hole, with 5/16" edge distance.
Along the bottom (11 1/2" side), the center hole is on the centerlineline, with 7/16" edge distance. The corner holes are 5 1/8" below the side holes, 21/32" side edge distance, leaving you with a lower edge distance of 13/16". You should have 10 1/8" between the two corner holes. The lower looks funky because the center hole is off alignment with the two corner holes. It is what it is.
R.G., I'm leaning in Jimi's direction insofar as the fuzz is concerned. Jimi's nailing it when he says "so bad it's good". I mean my crappy quality video just doesn't do it justice. But, I've been studing the schematic, and I think (to my noob eyes), that on the motherboard the signal goes through some kind of buffering (the Hi Z / Lo Z thing???), and then comes the fuzz circuit? Q3, Q4, and Q22? Am I right? Have I learned anything? Anyway, I would be more inclined to socket the trannies for the fuzz circuit (I would socket everything ANYWAY), and add a trimmer for biasing. One could then retain the original circuit, but have the flexibility of trying different trannies. For instance, I'm a big fan of BC108 / BC109 combos in NPN fuzz's. Would be nice just to get the "original" circuit up and about, and then start tweaking. Food for thought. Why do I suddenly feel like a child in the middle of a custody battle :icon_mrgreen:. Love you both guys!!
One final thing. On the diagram of the control board, there are connections marked as Perc. Rpt. Pot"" (Perc. = Percussion??????). Perc. doesn't even show up anywhere on the unit, but there is Fuzz Rpt. control. Maybe these babies were supposed to tick when the Fuzz Rpt. control was pushed up high? Just a hypothesis, just maybe, Percussive sound effect? Pie in the sky?
And, oh yeah, @#$% reality TV. This is WAY more fun. Pardon my French.
Good night all,
Dino
Just got off the phone with a Ludwig rep, over at Conn-Selmer. First off, he was simply AMAZED the we found 2 units... in the same week no less. Anyway, I took a shot at maybe digging up some info i.e. service and setup, test point readings, etc., but no dice. It was was a gamble, but as we say around here, he who never gambles never loses. Never wins either. He told me that when they moved the plant from Chicago, a lot of their stuff got lost or chucked in the move. I guess we`ll just have to rely on the readings that Jimi and I get from our units.
Maybe I`ll try putting out the word on a Ludwig forum as well. Never know, maybe there`s an oldtimer lurking there. I`ve got my coffee pot on standby :icon_lol:
hey dino, great work bro...
especially having the nads to call ludwig directly. man, i bet ya if jack darr was still alive he'd know something...he seemed to know EVERYTHING...lol.
question...any idea what the value and dimensions are of the fuzz repeat slider?
i believe it's just like the percussion repeat on an organ...ie a quick fuzzy slap, not really an echo, not really a tremolo. it could just be feedback for the fuzz, for that matter...
seems to make mine grow bigger baalz. when the rest of the house gets up, and hopefully goes out (read: never happen with my luck) i'm gonna crank this poopy up thru my cyber twin and see what shakes out.
i will definitely be able to get voltage readings etc. but...i'm thinking dino's the better one to do that. mine was stored poorly, and broken down for 30 years with a complete lack of revenance for it's rarity.
dino's sounds better. period. i'm thinking that's why, in his demo, it sounds like i remember this one sounding. this one now sounds darker, some of the effects aren't as clear, and the formants are definitely off. so i'm gonna mark the trimmers and play with them to see if i can get it "tuned" up a bit, but that's gonna come later. first, i wanna try and get it functioning, and am enough of a noob i'm a little afraid of killing it. i've gotta replace the one lamp under the fuzz switch, replace the fuzz repeat slider, and then i believe it's 100% functioning and i'll start messing with it.
i spent 4 hours last nite surfing around for mushroom pushbuttons. still haven't found them. asking for catalogs from everywhere i can find that sells obscure and surplus parts.
my bass player gary in my original projects' sister just died (heart attack, only 48, bloody horrible) so he's out of commission, but when he's back i'll see if he can fabricate the mushroom heads for the switches, and if so, how much they'll be. he's a master machinist, so...
i know they're not necessary, but damn, that's some MOJO with a capital M. nyuck nyuck nyuck...
I was just last week quoted ~80usd setup and ~2.50usd per piece for custom machined aluminum knobs from a friend of brothers. I would expect a similar cost for the button caps.
i think he'll blow off the setup for me...that would be cool if he can hook us up!!
First off, I'd like to express my sincerest condolences to your friend. 48 is just so young, and being a family member as well just plain sucks :icon_cry:. I hope they were close, because nothing sucks worse than having regrets on top of grief.
Jimi, if you get a good deal on the caps, I might just Paypal you the money, and have him make 3 more. I'm going to check with my contact as well. The ones I've come across are for E-stops. I think custom fab is the only way to go.
I left a message with a group of Ludwig afficianados. Although they specialize in drums, they seem to be really into the company history. You never know. There has to be a scrap of paper from the original plant floating around somewhere.
In the meantime, I'll measure the resistance readings on both sides (wiper to A, and wiper to C) of the trimmers on mine, and post them for you. Mark yours, and then set yours to mine and see what it sounds like. I know there is one trimmer on the motherboard (in the middle) that really changes the frequency of the sound globally. If it still doesn't sound close to mine, we may have a problem... or not :icon_question:. Might just be that someone screwed around with them, and never put them back... hopefully. I'll try to measure up the slider as well, but you might have to retrofit a replacement in there. Just be careful though, because I've already had to resolder a couple of wires on mine due to handling. Seems the solder can be really brittle in places. I know you said your eye sights bad, but a good going over all the solder joints might be in order here.
I'll say it again.... DAMN, why can't you be next door!!!!!!! Or at least in Vermont? :icon_mrgreen:
well, i'm in connecticut...that's closer than r.g. in texas!
;)
more later...off to get more parts...
GOODNESSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It took me ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :what a pedal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want mine, please continue whit it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thanks a lot for your incredible work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i got back a little while ago, getting ready to fabricate the bottom plate. the sheet metal is cut, i de-burred the edges and marked the holes. now i gotta get the baalz up to actually drill it. had the presence of mind to get a sheet of clear plastic to make a template for it to be sure i don't screw up when drilling. also got rubber feet for it which i think will help.
dino...dude...i love ya man, never met ya, but i KNOW ya...lol...thanks for everything!! that big trimmer is the first place i'll play with it...it seems like the total tonal frequency needs to be tweaked up a little, i bet that will take care of it.
thanks bro, i mean it!
now...back to work...wish me luck!!
namaste
pink
ps...i will talk to gary when i see him about fabricating them mushrooms. he'll probably get a kick out of it, and in exchange for his help, maybe we can all work together and draw him up a nice pedal for his bass i can build him. i let him try the lpb1 with diode clipper i built and he loved it...thinking i'll build him another, use in34a's for easier clipping, and double the cap values so it'll work better for bass.
he REALLY wants a nice pedal, something to boost the ass and allow a nice fuzzy overdrive. so maybe that's how we can pay him forward for fabbing the shroom's for us.
more later...peace!
I finally got the simulator to run the filter modules from the original. At least in the simulator, the settings seem to be interactive and critical.
On custom plastic parts - go to a hobby/crafts store and get some FIMO or Sculpy plastic modelling clay. Artsy types use it to make colored beads, doll faces, etc. It's a filled plastic clay in colors that you hand mold to shape, then bake in an oven. It sets into solid plastic on baking.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 03, 2011, 07:18:50 PM
i got back a little while ago, getting ready to fabricate the bottom plate. the sheet metal is cut, i de-burred the edges and marked the holes. now i gotta get the baalz up to actually drill it. had the presence of mind to get a sheet of clear plastic to make a template for it to be sure i don't screw up when drilling. also got rubber feet for it which i think will help.
dino...dude...i love ya man, never met ya, but i KNOW ya...lol...thanks for everything!! that big trimmer is the first place i'll play with it...it seems like the total tonal frequency needs to be tweaked up a little, i bet that will take care of it.
thanks bro, i mean it!
now...back to work...wish me luck!!
namaste
pink
ps...i will talk to gary when i see him about fabricating them mushrooms. he'll probably get a kick out of it, and in exchange for his help, maybe we can all work together and draw him up a nice pedal for his bass i can build him. i let him try the lpb1 with diode clipper i built and he loved it...thinking i'll build him another, use in34a's for easier clipping, and double the cap values so it'll work better for bass.
he REALLY wants a nice pedal, something to boost the ass and allow a nice fuzzy overdrive. so maybe that's how we can pay him forward for fabbing the shroom's for us.
more later...peace!
Good move on the plastic template. First class thinking. thanks for the love dude. Just seems to me that sharing is just SO much better than ignorance.
I have to apologize though, I just didn't have the time tonight to do the trimmer readings. I'll do them tomorrow. Promise.
For your friend Gary, I was thinking, maybe Tone God's Christine pedal, but voiced for bass. I'll ask Taylor if it's doable. I built one using Taylor's board, it's an awesome noise maker. I'll send a PM to Taylor.
Cheers,
Dino
it's all good my friend...just got done doing the holes. gonna coat the outside in some pseudo-wood grain contact paper, then putting it together. won't be perfect, but hey, it'll be better than being open!!! lol
no worries on the trimmer readings, i can't do anything tonite anyways...but tomorrow my girl is leaving for the weekend with her daughter, so ya know i'll be probably getting arrested for noise ordinance violations!!!
i'll make it say "oyvey" at the cops...that orter get me shot! :D
it's really cool that we can all come together to make this happen, it's a beautiful thing...all for the love of music, my friend.
gotta get back to work on a video i'm upping to dweezil's forum of my old power trio doing a zappa song about 15 years ago..lol
namaste...
For the owners of the two in captivity:
Would it be possible for you to refer to this: http://geofex.com/FX_images/Ludwig P2.gif (http://geofex.com/FX_images/Ludwig%20P2.gif) and (1) see if the guesses about what connects to what I made were correct, and (2) draw in wires where there is obviously something that needs to connect, but is not shown?
I tried to do it with the photos, but got lost in some of the wire routings.
sure thing r.g., will try to get the gif printed tomorrow, and see if i can try and help somehow.
finished the bottom panel tonite, complete with faux wood grain and added a couple rubber feet for the heel area.
my new phone takes much nicer pictures!!
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/ludwigbottom.jpg)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 03, 2011, 11:57:11 PM
sure thing r.g., will try to get the gif printed tomorrow, and see if i can try and help somehow.
finished the bottom panel tonite, complete with faux wood grain and added a couple rubber feet for the heel area.
my new phone takes much nicer pictures!!
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/ludwigbottom.jpg)
Great work my friend look very nice!!!!
thanks bro, it's coming along...hopefully soon it'll be 100% .
and soon, EVERYONE is gonna be able to have one....ya know, that's the best part.
i traded this off in 78, and it came back to me 33 years later, broken. now it's slowly coming back to life.
but the one thing i am sure of, is this....
this device WANTS to be reborn! ;)
DUDE... EXCELLENT!!!!! Other than the missing rubber strip, looks just like mine :icon_biggrin:
OK, back to business. Trimmer readings. First off, they're all being used as variable resistors, so there will be only one reading per trimmer. I thought perhaps that some would serve as reference pots, but that was a brain fart on my part (read the schematic...DOAH!!). For the trimmers that lay flat (R4, R20, and R65), the thumbwheel facing up, and the leg towards you, all the readings are between the left side board clip, and the right leg. For the ones standing up, center to whatever leg gives you higher than 0 resistance. If you're moving the wheel, and you're reading isn't changing, than switch outside leg.
Please take note that all the readings were taken with; unit unplugged, all footswitches OFF (in bypass), all sliders down (minimum), all control switches down (OFF, or center for the 3-way, all pointing skyward), treadle toe down, bypass balance max. (all the way to the right facing you), and Z balance min. (all the way to the left facing you). I figured that it would be important to mention this, since I didn't know if having the controls in different position would affect the readings. Shouldn't, but I'm trying to be as scientific as possible. Just trying to cover all the bases.
Soooo, without further ado (trimmer # as per the schematic);
R4 - 196.0K
R20 - 2.16K
R29 - 90.7R
R31 - 5.61K
R41 - 13.8R
R55 - 25.36K
R62 - 258.8R
R65 - 26.53K
R77 - 21.79K
R=ohms. K=kohms.
If I were you Jimi, I would record your original setup, and go from there. Then you can come back if it SNAFU's.
R.G., tracing all the offboard wiring is on my Honeydo list. I'm shooting to get that done this coming week. It's baseball season now, and my son's got 3 games this weekend, so I'm snookered for time. He's with his mom this coming week, so I'll have more time.
The saga continues.
Dino
Quotei traded this off in 78, and it came back to me 33 years later, broken. now it's slowly coming back to life.
It is incredibly awesome that you started this thread with the hopes of making it possible for you and others to clone this machine and you actually got your original unit back, and another member was also able to obtain one! Thanks to everone putting so much effort into making this original idea come so close to being possible. The clones are not far away. Again, congrats on getting YOUR actual unit back. Must be a great feeling, I'm happy for you. :)
HEY.... I think there is a treble boost circuit in this sucker!!!!!!!!!!
On the motherboard side of things, connection #6 is labeled as going to the Bypass switch. Before the wire reaches the switch though, it goes through a turret board that's bolted in a corner of the base, with a 2 resistor / cap / tranny arrangement. Looks awful like a treble booster. That would explain why the signal is so bright when not in Bypass, but with nothing else on (Animation or Fuzz).
Worse thing is that it's not on the schematic, or layout. Crazy f*%kers!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Priliminary wire tracing. There is a 10 conductor cable that runs from the lower motherboard end of things, through the tranny box, and up to the control board end. The wires that interconnect the two boards are numbered on the drawings, and represented by hexagon symbols. So far (on my unit), wire 2 is Orange, wire 4 is Blue, wire 7 is Yellow, wire 8 is Brown, and wire 10 is Green. The last one is especially retarded, because there a three green wires in this cable ???. This just reinforces the fact that I'll have to do a wire by wire, point to point survey. It will be the only way to really nail down where evrything is going.
Now... PLAY BALL!!!!
OMAFUGGINGAWDDUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE!!!!
sweet!! i will get at it today after the little woman leaves, so i can make some noise without listening to the bitchen.
oh yah, i forgot...there used to be a big rubber stop by the heel of the board, huh? man...time flies, i forgot all about it!!
more later!
Guys, to all involved,you´re doing a great job of resurrecting this thing. I saw the video someone posted on youtube, and it really does some iinteresting things. Now, with no intention of hacking the post or minimizing your work, woudn´t it be nice to make a modern parts/schem equivalent of this thing? I understand the desire to make a clone as close as possible to the original,but I personally am more attracted to the idea of understanding how this works and making a functionally equivalent thing. And smaller!!
Just an idea. I think R.G. posted something along this line of thought, using OTAs or similar...
well, we don't wanna f' up one of the originals, that's why we need to clone it first...
then the next step logically will be minituarization and modernization as well. ultimately, with r.g.'s help among others, we should be able to create
a work/soundalike that will be a lot smaller. that is indeed the plan!!
but like anything, once we get the clones, which will be a humongous job, then we need to start prototyping to get the end result.
stay tuned....peace! ;)
some bad news, in a way....
my girl went out, so i immediately hooked up the pedal to the closest amp and started messing with it. before this, i had only tried it thru a boss gt5 with headphones on.
wellp, thru an amp, it sounds nothing like dino's...more like a fuzz wah, the formants work, but are more in the background than actually processing the guitar signal.
everything works, but it developed a hum a couple minutes in, and as i played with it, the hum got worse...and worse.
so i turned it off, tried different cords, and same thing...only it started to get WORSE. and quickly!!!! so i shut her down, knowing in my dimwitted fashion from tube amps that a worsening hum = bad electrolytic, and one getting ready to blow. bummer.
so...for right now, i won't be able to supply any voltage information, and see no point in trying to tweak the trimmers to the levels dino suggested...i gotta bite the bullet, and am gonna strip her down and replace ALL THE ELECTROLYTIC CAPS, PRONTO.
hopefully that will cure it, then i can put it back together and re-calibrate it and with luck, and no bad solder (shudder) she'll be rockin and rollin' again.
only prob is i don't know how much it's gonna cost for the caps...looks like i'll be needing to put it on plastic (yay) and make a big order from mouser or allied.
gonna check the schematics for the values, hopefully they are right. but now i'm gonna have to dissassemble the entire unit...so i'll fix the broken fuzz repeat slider and replace the lamp for the fuzz switch too. sh** happens, i was hoping to not have to do major surgery, but at this point i guess it's unavoidable. gotta be done!!!
so...tho woe is me, it's probably ultimately all right, as then the unit will be good for probably the rest of its/my life.
dino...if ya get a chance, can you see what the value is on the slide pot for the fuzz repeat?
also...i DID get a thumping sound from the fuzz repeat thru the amp, so i'm imagining that you may wanna replace the electrolytics in yours too to see if that cures it...or, wait til i do to see if that's actually the issue.
bummer. i was planning on rockin' the hell out of this thing today!!! lol...
if someone would be so kind as to check the schematic for me to see if i got this right, i'd appreciate it.
i'm assuming the ceramic and film caps will be ok, so am going to buy the electrolytics today at cables and connectors .
here's what i got from looking at the schematic:
bottom board
c 1 10mf@25v
c 13 10mf@25v
c 14 25mf@25v
c 15 10mf@25v
c 21 10mf@25v
c 22 25mf@25v
c 23 25mf@25v
c24 10mf@25v
c 31 10mf@25v
c 32 25mf@25v
top board
c1 25mf@25v
c6 1mf@25v
c8 100mf@25v
c9 10mf@25v
c10 10mf@25v
c11 100mf@25v
c11 100mf@25v
c12 50mf@25v
i'm gonna go with 35 or 50 volt caps for safety, as i see that it's running off a 35 volt supply, and has a couple diodes marked as 35 volts, too.
dumb newbe question, but...do i need to replace the diodes too?
after i replace the caps, do i need to fire it up slowly with a variac? i don't have one anymore, but i do have a lighting dimmer.
not sure if the caps have to "form"...i do NOT wanna mess this thing up any worse!!!!!!!
;)
please help...thank you from me and karma!! ;)
Quote from: digi2t on June 04, 2011, 08:23:20 AM
HEY.... I think there is a treble boost circuit in this sucker!!!!!!!!!!
On the motherboard side of things, connection #6 is labeled as going to the Bypass switch. Before the wire reaches the switch though, it goes through a turret board that's bolted in a corner of the base, with a 2 resistor / cap / tranny arrangement. Looks awful like a treble booster. That would explain why the signal is so bright when not in Bypass, but with nothing else on (Animation or Fuzz).
Worse thing is that it's not on the schematic, or layout.
I did have an email that referred to the "mystery buffer circuit" at one time.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 04, 2011, 12:30:10 PM
but it developed a hum a couple minutes in, and as i played with it, the hum got worse...and worse.
... gonna strip her down and replace ALL THE ELECTROLYTIC CAPS, PRONTO.
hopefully that will cure it, then i can put it back together and re-calibrate it and with luck, and no bad solder (shudder) she'll be rockin and rollin' again.
Just replacing the electros will not require recalibration. They have no effect on the DC conditions unless they're bad, and the trimpots are all DC conditions.
Quoteonly prob is i don't know how much it's gonna cost for the caps...gonna check the schematics for the values, hopefully they are right.
No biggie. Few bucks. It's almost certainly the main power supply filter that's causing the hum, but you're right - replace them all. If money is a consideration, think about using radial-package caps instead of axial. Radials are used in much greater quantity and so are cheaper per value.
Also, don't sweat the schematic values for the caps too much. Back when this was made, tolerances on electros was usually +80%/-20%. So pick the nearest standard size and go with it. For instance, there are (at least) four 2.5uF caps on the schemo. Use 2.2uF, which is readily available. The electros in this do not have a big effect on tone as long as they're not leaky or too small.
Glad to see you jumped to the right conclusion. You may want to read "resuscitating the elderly pedal" at geofex, from 2000.
http://geofex.com/fxdebug/geriatric.htm (http://geofex.com/fxdebug/geriatric.htm)
thanks rg...but which caps were 2.5? i saw 25, but like i said, my eyes are dodgy...i went over it three times but i saw it as 25, not 2.5...appreciate the help bro!!!
if you can just tell me which caps...say, c5 or c13 or whatever, i'd appreciate it.
going to geofex to read now. thank you!!
i just enlarged the schems ridiculously, but still can't see the dif between 2.5 and 25....and that's probably a huge enough issue to make a problem with replacement.
i really really appreciate the help, i hate to ask, but i really just can't see it. are they on both boards?
this is what i had seen, again:
bottom board
c 1 10mf@25v
c 13 10mf@25v
c 14 25mf@25v
c 15 10mf@25v
c 21 10mf@25v
c 22 25mf@25v
c 23 25mf@25v
c24 10mf@25v
c 31 10mf@25v
c 32 25mf@25v
top board
c1 25mf@25v
c6 1mf@25v
c8 100mf@25v
c9 10mf@25v
c10 10mf@25v
c11 100mf@25v
c11 100mf@25v
c12 50mf@25v
if you could add a couple dots, i'd appreciate it incredibly!! ;)
getting ready to open the top panel up...figure if i gotta be in there anyways, i may as well measure the resistance of the broken slider, get it's physical dimensions, and pull the blown bulb as well so i can read the voltage and get a replacement.
thanks!
ok, i figured since there's only like 5 caps in total that i thought were 25mf, i blew the schematics up about 7x the original size...
i still can barely tell, but it appears that on the bottom board, c14, 22,23 and 32 are ALL 2.5mfd, and on the top board, c1 is also 2.5mfd.
thanks r.g., without you i would have probably messed up heinously!! ;)
so here's an updated and hopefully right BOM for the electrolytic caps:
bottom board
c 1 10mf@25v
c 13 10mf@25v
c 14 2.5mf@25v
c 15 10mf@25v
c 21 10mf@25v
c 22 2.5mf@25v
c 23 2.5mf@25v
c24 10mf@25v
c 31 10mf@25v
c 32 2.5mf@25v
top board
c1 2.5mf@25v
c6 1mf@25v
c8 100mf@25v
c9 10mf@25v
c10 10mf@25v
c11 100mf@25v
c11 100mf@25v
c12 50mf@25v
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 04, 2011, 12:51:20 PM
i'm assuming the ceramic and film caps will be ok, so am going to buy the electrolytics today at cables and connectors .
ceramic and film caps will almost certainly be OK. It would be unusual if they were bad.
Quote
here's what i got from looking at the schematic:
Looks OK, but you listed C11 twice. No biggie.
Quote
i'm gonna go with 35 or 50 volt caps for safety, as i see that it's running off a 35 volt supply, and has a couple diodes marked as 35 volts, too.
Good choice. I wouldn't use less than 35V. 50 would be a better choice for C8 and C11. 35V will be marginal for those.
Quote
dumb newbe question, but...do i need to replace the diodes too?
Probably not. Diodes should be well under $0.10 each for 1N4004 through 1N4007. Any of those should replace any of the diodes on the board well enough. You need diodes with over 70V revers rating, so anything rated for 100V on up works OK. Don't mess with D3 (36V zener diode) until you've replaced electros and metered the supply voltage to see that it's nearly 35V. Chances are it's fine.
Quote
after i replace the caps, do i need to fire it up slowly with a variac?
Not unless you buy really old stock, surplus caps. Generally it's only the high voltage electros in tube amps that need this.
Just for some comparisons, from Mouser:
1 - 1uF / 50V: axial, $0.25 to $0.50 each; radial $0.05 to $0.10 each;
8 - 10uf@50v: axial $0.25 to $0.50 each ; radial $0.04 to $0.08 each
5 - 22uf@35-50v: axial $0.35 to $2.50 each ; radial $0.04 to $0.08 each
1 - 47mf@35v-50v: axial $0.25 to $0.50 each ; radial $0.04 to $0.08 each
3 - 100mf@50v: axial $0.30 to $1.00 each ; radial $0.06 to $0.20 each
So mail ordering from Mouser, you'd pay a minimum of $5.15 for all axials, and a minimum of $0.79 for all radials.
thanks again for the info r.g....i'm figuring i'll save the wait and hit the local store, i can get the whole lot for probably 15 bucks...well worth it to not have to wait! ;)
soon as i get done typing, i'll crack open the top half...hopefully not break anything!! gonna put numbers next to each connection wire and the color, so if i break anything i can backtrack easily.
thanks for all the help!!! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 04, 2011, 01:33:12 PM
soon as i get done typing, i'll crack open the top half...hopefully not break anything!! gonna put numbers next to each connection wire and the color, so if i break anything i can backtrack easily.
I find it very helpful to take a bunch of digital pictures as I disassemble things. Then if I don't need them later, I can just flush the pics, they're worthless. But if I need them, they suddenly become worth their weight in gold.
great tip! my camera is already by my side...not sure how to dissassemble it tho, looks like i have to undo it from the underside of the case.
there's a couple screws on top too, time to get my hands dirty! ;)
ok, some disassembly notes for future generations. the pull knob that lets the pedalboard be lowered unscrews to the left, standard thread kinda thing.
there are two screws that hold the top marker plate on. and two screws below the top assembly that remove a plate that covers the underside of the top.
carefully remove the bundled wires in the right inside of the case.
unscrew the 4 small screws on the outside corners on the top of the assembly, and you can then lift out the entire top assembly.
the small incandescent screw in bulbs for the switches can be released by gently pulling down on a brass clip that holds them in place. the color changes are from small pieces of colored gel that are mounted to the chassis below the transparent switches.
the sliders are mounted to a sub-chassis metal plate...i'm gonna take notes as to their wiring etc so i can dis-connect the broken slider...that i may have to order if the local guys don't have an equivalent...i know they have SOME old stock slide pots, i'm gambling on them being able to have one to replace, i'll bring it with me.
so..at this point, that's where i'm at...spelunking into the past, and with luck, i'll be successful matching the broken parts.
more later. will also up more pics in a minute or three. peace.
photobucket is screing up, so there may be a dupe pic or two...sorry!!
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3938-1.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3939-1.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3940-1.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3941-1.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3947-1.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3942.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3943-1.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3949-1.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3950.jpg)
also....voltages i posted were wrong, and i missed c2
top board
c1 2.5mf@25v
c2 1mf@25v
c6 1mf@25v
c8 100mf@40v .....50v
c9 10mf@35v .......50v
c10 10mf@35v ......50v
c11 100mf@65v ....100v
c12 50mf@40v .....50v
gonna crack the bottom back open so i can be sure of voltages on the caps.
You're probably OK with 63V (next standard value up from 50V) on C11.
c 11 is marked on the pcb as 100mf@65, that's why i figure i'd go with 100v r.g..
Makes sense, but I suspect that the difference between 63 and 65 isn't going to mess you up. Get 100V if you can, use 63 if they don't have 100.
I would guess that the actual voltage on the cap is between 45Vdc and 60Vdc, and most likely about 50Vdc, just from looking at the circuits.
You could ice this one up solid by measuring the voltage on the output of the transformer after pulling the transformer contacts off the board and measuring between them with an AC reading meter. The peak DC will be half of the end-to-end transformer voltage times 1.414.
i am WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY TOO LAZY AND STUPID TO DO THAT!! lol
i just got back...got all the electrolytics, also got enough incandescents to replace all the bulbs.
unfortunately, no dice with the slide pot...nothing even close, even considered buying another just to swipe the wiper, but not even in the ball park.
since this slider still works, and enough sticks up where it's still usable, gonna just stick it back in.
taking detailed notes on where the wires go, so i will upload that info later. taking pics, and writing where each wire physically goes, what they connect to other than the lamps, as i figure that's a little less important than the electronic components.
as soon as my girlfriend leaves, i'm gonna have at it, do the top board, then tear into the bottom one. if ya don't hear from me for a few days, you'll know why...lol :icon_eek:
Hey Jimi,
Those smaller caps are 2.5, not 25. Personally, I would start by cleaning all the wire to board connections. The way the connector only makes contact on it's edge seems somewhat dodgy to me. I know some of mine were suspect, so I squeezed them ever so gently to close them up a bit, and make them tighter on the board.
Here are some shots of that mystery circuit;
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/LudwigPhase2004.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/LudwigPhase2001.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/LudwigPhase2003.jpg)
What do you think R.G.? 47k and 10k resistors, 0.1uF cap, and a 2N4401 tranny. That's it.
I measured the slide pot (again, metric :icon_rolleyes:), 70mm X 15mm, with 50mm center-to-center travel. Dude, don't bust your head. You should be able to find something close, and I believe they mount direct to the panel with screws. You can probably use countersinks, and hide it with the cover plate. Here is a good example;
http://www.alphapotentiometers.net/html/16mm_slide_pot_12.html (http://www.alphapotentiometers.net/html/16mm_slide_pot_12.html)
hi dino, yep, they are 2.5....i'm almost done with the top board. 2 caps to go, then reassemble, test and the bottom board.
the slider is 7.5k, i'm assuming it's 10 k. it actually mounts via two metal twists on a sub board. i put it back in, i can live with it for now.
funny...now i remember breaking the damn thing, lol...enough sticks up where it's still useful.
replaced all the lamps, too...probably a good thing, as most were black from stress. hoping that will cure all.
i'm actually surprised how quick it's going...about 2 hours since i got home and started.
gonna solder ALL the connections to the board...just not worth it to trust those clips, i had one break on me...not the wire, the clip~ ::)
so it's coming along. soon as i get the top board back together, gonna fire it up and see if it's still passing sound before i button it up and get the bottom board done.
but with luck, i can get it done tonite, and tweak the trim pots and see if she's cured.
btw,,, the lamps are 6v, .20 amp t-1 3/4 type mi
the cablesandconnectors.com part number is ml-1768 if anyone needs them.
now...back to work...peace!
Quote from: digi2t on June 04, 2011, 06:01:01 PM
Those smaller caps are 2.5, not 25. Personally, I would start by cleaning all the wire to board connections. The way the connector only makes contact on it's edge seems somewhat dodgy to me. I know some of mine were suspect, so I squeezed them ever so gently to close them up a bit, and make them tighter on the board.
Good idea. The connection scheme on this thing is a field-service disaster. Those connectors were never meant to be used that way.
Quote
Here are some shots of that mystery circuit;
What do you think R.G.? 47k and 10k resistors, 0.1uF cap, and a 2N4401 tranny. That's it.
I'll see what I can ferret out.
The gut shots of this thing have a strong odor of "Oh, crap. How're we going to get it working in manufacturing?" The little add-on amplifier/whatever, the 1M resistor piggybacked on the top of the board that I haven't mentioned earlier, the piggyback resistor on the footpedal pot, a few other things, plus the sheer ugliness of using Faston-type connectors pressing on copper on the etched side of the PCB, plus some other smaller issues all give me the feeling that I know why they didn't build more of these. They're likely to be hard to keep working well, and they were expensive to build compared to their contemporary pedals.
The "fuzz" is a variable crossover-distortion setup. It's Q5 and Q6, helped along and messed with by Q21. The Q5/Q6 amplifier has a dead zone in the middle as set up there. Q21 feeds it a variable "power supply voltage" and which side of the AC signal gets amplified most depends on what the "power supply voltage" is at the moment. There is a lot of gain and voltage available from the preceding input amplifiers.
The filters have a control voltage range of about 0V (highest frequency) to 1.1V (lowest frequency) fed to them on the wipers of the pots from the control voltage setup.
wellp, phase i of the phase ii is complete. and a success. i now have lights, formants and wayyyyyyyyy less hummmmmmmm. gotta do the bottom board still, but hopefully won't give too many probs...the top board was more of a cakewalk than i expected. so far so good.
but i did find some critical mistakes on my part. the voltages on some of the caps were higher than i expected. lucky i over rated the voltage some!!
c1 is 2.5mf at 25v, i used 2.2mf @ 50v
c2 is 1 mf @ 25v, i used 50v
c6 is 1 mf @ 25v, i used 50v
c8 is 100mf@ 40v, i used 63v
c9 is 10mf @ i thought 35v....wrong! it's 64v
c10 is the same as c9
c11 is 100mf @ 65 v...i used 100v
c12 is 50mf @ 40v....i used 47mf @ 50v
hoping i have high enough voltage caps to do the rest, i may have under rated them as i was in a hurry to get to the parts store.
radio shack is open til 9, so i'm gonna look over the bottom board and run out if i have to to get higher voltage caps, tho i may have them in my junkbox. i'd rather use axials as original than radial caps if i can help it.
it's funny how you mention the fuzz circuit R.G.....in the middle, it has more fuzz when the fuzz switch is in the voice fuzz position than it does when cranked!
anyways...back to work...more later. i'll try and write up the wiring as i noted. i did solder all the connections to the top board, and it was a bitch, as the clips are annodized and don't want to take solder easily.
peace
snafu!!! F***!!!!!!!
i had to get 50 v caps...that was all they had at the store, matter of fact i bought 'em out.
but...the ones on the bottom board are all 63 volts. suck! i got 2.2's at 100, so those will fly.
but i have only one 63v 10mf, the others are all 50. i'm hoping they over-rated the caps some, the million dollar question is, do you think the 50's will fly?
i have a couple 100v 22mf's kicking around, but they're not axial. i figure i could use them in a pinch, but would rather use the right kind. i seem to remember from the tube amp days that caps are over rated from what they say, but my memory is dodgy. gonna try and measure the voltage to ground on the caps, if it's less than 50, i'm gonna give it shot.
is this safe, or should i bite the bullet and put an order in?
hit rat shack...nothing over 35v.
advice appreciated!!! ;)
Strong odor of "Oh crap!" you say? I can smell it down the street man.
Jimi, the fuzz might just be that way. Mine is EXACTLY the same way. In FUZZ, it goes from nothing to max fuzz, and in FUZZ/VOICE it ges from weak to full fuzz to gatey fuzz. And, I have a feeling that the ticking is normal as well. An "effect" of some sort. Actually, with a filter on, it sounds somewhat wierd/cool. Especially if you run it through a delay :icon_twisted:.
I've started working on the off-board wiring. I'm basically starting at the Input, and I'm going to work my way around the boards, switches, sliders, etc. I'll document where every inch of wire goes.
I also checked the voltages coming from the transformer. About 38vac. I've got between 35-36vdc rectified. There a 2 wires that go to the ON/Off switch, I believe these wires close the circuit in the transfo so the transfo can output power.
There are 10 wires in the harness between the upper and lower boards, but not all show corresponding numbers on the diagram. I'll number and trace these as well, and add them to the diagram.
Lotsa verk todo...
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 04, 2011, 08:58:11 PM
the million dollar question is, do you think the 50's will fly?
is this safe, or should i bite the bullet and put an order in?
As I said earlier, you can measure it and know what's safe. Referring to the schematic for the console board, pull off wires from positions 2 and 3. These are the transformer power wires. Use your DMM set to read AC volts on the 200V scale. Plug it in, turn it on, read the meter, then turn it back off and unplug it. If you read less than about 88Vac, then it is safe to use your 63V caps. If you read less than 71Vac, then your 50uF's are in no danger. And frankly, if you read over 71 and less than 88, only capacitor 11 is really at any risk.
From the unloaded transformer AC output, it is possible to calculate the highest possible peak voltage after the rectifiers.
yikes. that means i gotta re-dissassemble the whole top of the unit!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
or...find where the b+ enters the fall board... guess i better fire up the meter!!! ;) cuz i shore don't feel like taking all that stuff off again, the contact cement under the control plate is already dry even. fudge!!! ;)
ok, just read the voltages all over the fall board to ground...the highest voltage found was 19.8....so i'm gonna assume the caps were rated that high because that's well enough over rated and go for the 50 volt caps. wish me luck in my madness!~ :o
At the risk of sounding like a complete cynic, there isn't anything on the PCBs that can't be replaced. The hardest parts to replace are (1) the power transformer and (2) any appearance/panel parts, as you know already.
one cap to go....a 10mf. i'm using a 35v cap there cuz i only saw about 3 volts on the hot side. one ground lug broke off when i was doing voltage measurements, but if all goes well, it'll be in one piece soon!
yah, i agree...even transformers are cake compared to missing parts!! ;)
i wrote down where all the connections on the fall board were, so i'll type that up when i finish re-assembling.
peace!
ALRIGHT~
phase II of the phase II restoration is done, and it works like a charm. EVERYTHING sounds not necessarily stoned, but..ummm...beautiful! :icon_mrgreen:
the fuzz repeat is supposed to tick...it's exactly the same thing as the repeat percussion on an electronic organ. the modulation speed affects the ticking speed, and its kinda like a fuzzy tremolo..you don't really notice the ticking unless you're not playing.
i may try and mess with the trim pots a little, but it sounds so good i may just leave it alone.
the fuzz sound is killer...sustainy, and very liquid. when ya turn off the filter with the footswitch, it decays back to static.
the wah pedal is always on as long as you have one of the voicing switches on...i forgot how sick this thing really was. it lives up to my remembrance and expectations...
so that said, i think we now have two working specimens to work with....which should make cloning inevitable!!
the bottom board hooks up like this:
looking at it with the notch for the wah pot to the bottom, it goes like this, from left to right counter clockwise:
left side, top to bottom
#13 black wire to output jack
#14 black wire to lamp
#15 to blue wire from harness, to #4 of iinterconnecting cable
#16 blue wire to fuzz switch
#17 orange wire to fuzz switch
#18 white wire with red stripe to bypass pot
# 19 green wire to harness, #10 of interconnecting cable
bottom left
#20 orange wire to harness, # 2 of interconnecting cable
#21 gray wire to wah pot
bottom right
#22 black wire to wah pot, ground
#23 black wire to animation footswitch, ground
right side, from bottom to top
#1 black wire to hi z jack, ground
#2 brown wire to hi z jack, hot
#3 red wire to loz balance pot
#4 yellow wire to wah pot
#5 two wires here, red to harness, white with red stripe to terminal strip. e b+, 35v
#6 white wire to terminal strip, bypass switch
#7 yellow wire to fuzz switch, tp 1 fuzz switch pole
#8 yellow wire to harness, tp4, interconnecting cable 7
#9 brown wire to harness, tp 5
#10 black wire to harness, ground
#11 green wire to harness
#12 green wire to fuzz switch
lamp resistor between #'s 11 & 12.
the top board is a little more self-explanatory....my notes were just in case a wire broke off when i was messing with it, so they aren't real useful.
from the back of the top board,
a white wire goes to board # 11
blue wire to board 12
orange wire to board 6
black wire to board 17
control board goes like this...
# 33,34 black wire
32 brown
31 gray
30 yellow
29 white with green stripe
28 blue
27 white
26 red
25 green
24 yellow
23, 22, 21 orange
20 blue
19 white
18 red
17 red
other side of board goes like this:
# 1 & 2 white cloth covere
3 orange, cloth covered
4 black
5 white/white with black stripe
6 white with red stripe
7 green
8 yellow
9 blue
10 white with green stripe
11 white with red stripe
12 purple
there's another terminal here, but it's not connected or used
13 purple
14 brown
15 red
16 brown
i am burnt toast...hope this helps...look at the control board schematic for descriptions of what each terminal goes to.
see you guys tomorrow...peace and love to all who help, contribute, and read.
any commercial mother f***ers who wanna rip this info off that we're working hard to get for people...
i swear i'll hunt you down, you can run, but you will die extremely tired. :D
Jimi buddy, time to give your eyes a break.
I've decided that this week, I'm going to do the wire tracing graphically. We have 11" x 17" paper at work, so I'm going to paste the images of the boards onto a sheet, then draw in all the rest of the components (switches, pots, jacks, etc.), and then connect the dots. This way, it will be a bit easier for visual creatures (such as myself :icon_mrgreen:) to read the lay of the land. It will also give me the opportunity to add in that "mystery circuit", and the transformer connections. It will be a job, but time well spent. Especially if it will give R.G. a clear picture of all the connections.
Another things I've noticed is that;
-"Fuzz Rpt. Pot" is labeled as "Perc. Rpt. Pot"
-On the motherboard schematic, trimmer R77 is not marked. It is a 50K, with connection point 8 being the wiper. Tested this, and continuity is a go. From staring at the schematic, trimmers R77 and R55 have someting to do with the Parallel Formant circuit. Maybe high, low voicing of the circuit.
-Point 12 on the control board (Anim. Sw. Fast) is not connected to anything on mine. You got a wire here Jimi? On mine, the wire that should go from this point to Anim. Fast side of the switch, is the purple wire in the harness, and it goes from Anim. Fast to the Animation footswitch. :icon_question: :icon_question: :icon_question:
Anyway, I believe tracing the entire thing will be the only way to keep us on the straight and narrow.
yes dino, on mine board connection 12 has a purple wire that goes to...oh, screw it..i can't even figure out my own notes on this thing!!!
but yes, i do have a purple wire there that went to the animation switch if memory serves. but i also have an empty slot, too...it would be the 5th one in on mine, from the front of the control board, left to right. that would make for 17 connections, not the 16 shown on the schem.
no wonder they abandoned these things. i can see it now,,
imagine a smoke-filled room that reeks of patchouli, black light posters on the walls, and the president of ludwig corp talking to his board of executives...
"like, groovy, babe, did the lsd kick in yet? here, like, have another hit of this reefer, duuuuuuuuuuuude, and lets talk about making the like, most bodacious toy. something we can sell drummers on, and them pesky guitar players that spend all that money <tooooooooooooooooooooooke>....something hip...something wow...wait...i see it mannn...we need to
coff!! hack!!! make a GUITAR PEDAL. something like that will blow their minds....let's make the most hippest grooviest complicated thing, and lets design it by drummers so they'll stop making jokes about using drummers as stage levels and like, stuff...i don't care how hard it is, let's make it happen, baby...groovy"....
so anyways, the acid was from owsley, and really good, so they kept eating it and the ludwig phase II was born. and it was groovy, motherf**ker...
but like all dead-headed schemes, eventually the acid ran out, and like a dead head who's head suddenly clears when the blotters (2 for 5, man, doses, 2 for 5) wear off and proclaims "man! this music SUCKS!" the now suddenly straight laced mister normal president screams in a soon-to-be-yuppie and republican voice," WHAT WERE WE THINKING!~!! PULL THE PLUG ON THE ENTIRE PROJECT, FLUSH THE EVIDENCE BEFORE SOMEBODY NOTICES WE LOST OUR MINDS!!!"
and production of the legendary pedal ceased, and it's plans were smoked in the back room by the engineering staff hijacked from electro voice, and all but 50 were recovered and destroyed to save the mighty ludwig name any further embarassment.
until some hipster musicians got a hold of two, cracked them open, and displayed their vulgar contents to the world, like soiled sheets hanging from a second floor bedroom window...
:icon_mrgreen:
Quote-"Fuzz Rpt. Pot" is labeled as "Perc. Rpt. Pot"
-On the motherboard schematic, trimmer R77 is not marked. It is a 50K, with connection point 8 being the wiper. Tested this, and continuity is a go. From staring at the schematic, trimmers R77 and R55 have someting to do with the Parallel Formant circuit. Maybe high, low voicing of the circuit.
I wondered about two points years ago, I never quite figured out that the fuzz pot and perc pot were the same thing. Good work, guys!
:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Amazing image dude. I think it's even starting to get hazy in here.
Yup, #5 slot empty is correct. Since your unit is numbered later than mine, they must have had some design change/f.u.b.a.r., and modified it.
So far, I decided to number all the harness wires. Some were already numbered as per the drawing (hexagon symbols), so I retained them, and assigned the remaining numbers to the others.
Wire numbers;
#1-RED (+36VDC from point 17 on the control board)
#2-ORANGE
#3-BLACK (GND.)
#4-BLUE
#5-GREEN (AC POWER TO LAMPS FROM RESISTOR)
#6-GREEN (AC POWER TO LAMPS RESISTOR)
#7-YELLOW
#8-BROWN
#9-VIOLET
#10-GREEN (from point 19 on motherboard to Fuzz/Fuzz/Voice switch on control panel)
I wonder if we could do away with the whole AC transfo affair, and just go with a 36vdc power supply on this puppy? Something like this maybe; http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/727271-power-supply-40w-18-36vdc-1-05a-tld1040-36-c1050.html (http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/727271-power-supply-40w-18-36vdc-1-05a-tld1040-36-c1050.html) .Just an example, I know it's pricey, but it would sure simplify things. What do you think R.G.?
heck, couldn't we just use a diode bridge to double the voltage from one of them charge pump thingies?
be nice if it could run off the same supply as the rest of the pedals...
nice work, dino...i had gotten way too brain dead to try and keep all those wires straight!!
i had actually considered leaving the fall board in place, and doing the old jack darr trick of just snipping out the "condensers" and soldering the new ones to the old ones leads...
but then i realized, in for a dollar, in for a dime, may as well get it RIGHT. and i'm glad i did.
we're only just beginning to make this happen, and i think i've already learned more than i did in all my previous builds and experiences.
sorry about the haze...flashback i guess...lol
soon as my brother gets up, i am CRANKING this thing!! ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 05, 2011, 10:28:22 AM
sorry about the haze...flashback i guess...lol
soon as my brother gets up, i am CRANKING this thing!! ;)
How about waking him up... with a Ludwig Phase II version of the Star Spangled Banner :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:
Would love to be there for that one he he he.
For the fuzz, I'm beginning to think that the slider acts as an intensity in one position, and a bias in the other. Would explain why it's so linear one way, but has a "hump" the other.
I need to study more... soooooo much to learn.
hee hee....i am tempted, fer sure!!!
you may be right about the fuzz...this is such a strange pedal; i love how when ya turn off an effect, it just kinda fades away back to the wah sound. sooooo sick!!
+1 on the learning thing, too...i've learned so much my brain hurts!
On the power supply, I've been thinking about that. For a clone, a DC-output wall plug would be a whole lot better. Not knowing how much current it eats until/unless it gets measured on a real or clone, it's hard to design a charge pump to work right. If the current's high, it may be hard to get a charge pump to get to 35V.
I like the idea of running it from a 24Vdc nominal output wall wart. These are cheap and easy to find, and usually have an output that is larger than the stated. I just bought a couple for another project. They put out 31.1V unloaded. The other option is to use a 15-18V AC output wall wart and use diodes and caps to double it to over 35V. Lots of options, not much real information. Mouser stocks 48Vdc output wall warts. That should be OK for the raw power. There's a regulator on the PCB anyway. Just have to make sure it doesn't burn out with 48Vdc in.
I did run the filters in the simulator and they do work at 24Vdc, but whether it all works and sounds right is not something a simulator says.
A couple of other questions remain. It's not clear what kind/type of switches these things use. For instance, the animation speed switch. Is that an SPDT, with the pole to +35? The schemos do not say, and all I can figure out from the pictures is that it probably does that. Stuff like that.
There's plenty to chew on from the wire tracing! Thanks.
the animation speed switch determines how fast the animation begins it's modulation...in slow position, it ramps up slowly, relative to the max speed set by the slide pot.
in fast position, it goes right TO the preset speed. the coolest part is that when ya use the footswitch to turn off the animation, it ramps back down to just wah pedal control.
that switch is dpdt i believe, on/on. it's hard to tell cuz of the archaic switches, they look like the switches for the pickups in old gibsons.
the select switch is a dpdt on/on/on i believe. it chooses ffm (formant filter modulation)/both/fuzz repeat.
formant trajectories are all dpdt on/off switches
the fuzz/voice fuzz is the same too i believe. while dino's got his apart, maybe he can check. my eyes are all bugged out still from all the stuff yesterday and kinda fuzzy.
but i don't think they are anything other than normal kinda illuminated "wafer" switches...the plastic parts are clear,and have little gels inserted so they can change colour.
and, fwiw, the highest voltage i read to ground anywhere was 19.8v...so i'm assuming that means about a 35 volt supply, peak to peak?
am i in the ballpark?
i know it's a 35 volt supply, but i mean, is that why i read about 19 volts?
thanks guys...
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!! F***!!!
just plugged it in, cranked it up. it SOUNDS killer.
but the hum is still there, and in spades. happens most when the fuzz and animation are turned off, of all things. crazy.
tried turning the wall plug over...slight reduction, hum still there.
tried kicking it. (seriously)...no change, tho stomping on the floorboard DID make it stop...but then it started again.
i know all the electrolytics are good...
so...i'm thinking, where is noisy ac 60 cycle hum gonna come from other than the caps?
diodes?
could i have inadvertantly wired the grain of wheat lamps backwards?
lead dress maybe (one of the wires to the floorboard lamps passes over the dry output balance pot)?
or...gulp...transformer?
or...could it be that the bottom plate isn't being grounded to the chassis cuz i forgot to cut the vinyl covering under the screws to make a good earth connection?
any ideas?
hellllllllllllllllllllllllllp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it sounds KILLER thru a clean amp if ya gotta noise gate cranked...but the part that's throwing me, is why the hell would the hum go away when ya kick ON the fuzz????
shouldn't it be the other way around?
i expect some hum from a vintage device, but this is crazy. so...i'm thinking diodes. if the caps are good, and a diode fails, that can make it hum, right? i did notice some of the diodes looked like glass kinda germanium types, and they leak like a sieve some times...
gotta go out, will check back when i get home. frustrated!!!!!!
Jimi, R.G., Dino...
This thread is my television, and I thank you all for it.
What you're doing is DIY FX at its very core.
I may never build one, or even try to find one to use on a recording, but your enthusiasm is immense.
I wish you every success in your reverse-engineering, clone project.
I'm thrilled to be reading this thread as it unfolds.
Cheers Guys! Best of Luck!
Ian.
Here's all I know about the wiring so far. Circles with question marks in them are where I know that I don't know what's happening. There are probably places where I don't know things that I don't know.
http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/Ludwig%20interboard%20wiring.pdf (http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/Ludwig%20interboard%20wiring.pdf)
As to the hum. Hum comes from many places, not just power supply ripple. If you listen carefully, you may be able to tell the one-octave difference between true AC power line ripple, which is 60Hz, and power supply ripple, which is 120Hz and "fuzzier". Sometimes not.
I suspect that you have a ground wire loose, or that the AC going to those (worthless...) incandescent lamps is inducing hum by passing by some signal wire in an unfortunate way. A loose jack bushing nut can do it, as can a loose wire grounding (well, OK, not grounding) to the chassis well. Don't get too upset about hum at the moment.
thanks newfish.
sumbitch. the brand new c1 on the fall board is bad, if ya touch the case, it sounds like touching the end of a guitar cord. gonna cut one of the leads and bypass it with a 100v 22mfd, see if that cures it.
that helped some, but it still has a hum to it. i messed with the trimmers some, discovered you can get some positively WACK sounds out of it when it's set to self oscilate.
i messed with the lead dress, and removed one wire at a time from the fall board...seems the "treble booster" thing seems to have an effect on the hum.
also discovered it seems acceptable into a clean amp...but FORGET running it into a distorted amp. hum city.
weird...hopefully will figure out the rest of the issues.
ok, r.g.
i too suspect lead dress...that's why we twist the ac line to the heaters in tubes, to reduce the hum some. i'm wondering if maybe i can "float " the ac like in the heaters of a tube amp? it's definitely better now...c1 was a bad cap. doubling the voltage and the capacitance definitely helped a bit.
i'm wondering more and more about just replacing them grain of wheat lamps with led's. especially if it'll nuke some of the noise.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 05, 2011, 04:56:17 PM
sumbitch. the brand new c1 on the fall board is bad, if ya touch the case, it sounds like touching the end of a guitar cord. gonna cut one of the leads and bypass it with a 100v 22mfd, see if that cures it.
Doesn't happen often, but it does happen. It's pretty clear that the internal lead was open. When you touch the cap, it *is* just like touching the end of a guitar cord, and for the same reason. Increasing the capacitance and/or voltage don't help or hurt, it's just that the new cap is actually connected inside.
Quotei messed with the lead dress, and removed one wire at a time from the fall board...seems the "treble booster" thing seems to have an effect on the hum.
also discovered it seems acceptable into a clean amp...but FORGET running it into a distorted amp. hum city.
I suspect the grounding scheme inside is not the best. A dirty amp will amplify any low signals more than the guitar signal, because the guitar signal is limited by clipping, the hum is not. So the hum gets proportionately louder. Hiss, too.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 05, 2011, 04:59:55 PM
i too suspect lead dress...that's why we twist the ac line to the heaters in tubes, to reduce the hum some. i'm wondering if maybe i can "float " the ac like in the heaters of a tube amp? it's definitely better now...c1 was a bad cap. doubling the voltage and the capacitance definitely helped a bit.
i'm wondering more and more about just replacing them grain of wheat lamps with led's. especially if it'll nuke some of the noise.
I think that getting AC out of the wires would help more, whether the lights are incandescent or LED. I am not sure about what goes to what for the lamps to work, but I think they may be running on the pure transformer AC. If they are, then just switching them to DC will clean up the AC induction.
Getting the high voltage AC out of that harness to the top/console board will help too.
something's up...the pedal is DEAD. the cap i replaced it with is now doing the same thing, so something is majorly wrong. i had it working great, tried setting the trimmers as suggested by dino...was working, but seemed to need a little tweaking. was tweaking one of the trimmers, and poof...the whole thing crapped out, was barely passing signal at all.
i've played with it for the last hour or so, can get the fuzz to work, but the wah part is dead. some of the trimmers are now acting like volume for the fuzz, getting no modulation at all, tho the repeat percussion thing is indeed working, so something is wonky as hell.
i am stumped completely. gotta go to rehearsal, i'm already gonna get there 1/2 an hour late.
man, i could scream/cry right now. this thing is way beyond my limited abilities to figure out.
f**k me!!!
don't even know where to start ...if i snap the wah pedal hard toe down, it kinda kicks on a little bit, but then again, only fuzz.
just tried cleaning the trimmers...wondering if they broke down internally or something.
but that cap blowing out has me spooked, as it was a 100 volt cap!!
it shouldn't have blown, was working perfectly until whatever the hell happened.
more later...this sucks!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 05, 2011, 06:47:37 PM
something's up...the pedal is DEAD. the cap i replaced it with is now doing the same thing, so something is majorly wrong. i had it working great, tried setting the trimmers ...
it shouldn't have blown, was working perfectly until whatever the hell happened.
Take a deep breath. You've already faced the worst thing with the unit - you can't get an identical replacement pot for the front panel. Everything else is fixable, with some degree of effort.
This is a common type of failure for elderly effects. They kinda work, then they break down.
Jimi, dude, bro,
Like R.G. said, take a step back, deep breath, and just scan it slowly. I've already had to repair two wire breaks, right at the solder. Both on the upper board. These babies are so brittle, that just looking at them hard can shake shit loose. The upper board is especially suseptible to breaks because of the gymnastics needed to get it out of it's place. The wiring HATES it. First time around I lost the fuzz, and then the lamps feeder. Easy fixes both times, but real heart stoppers. 1200 reasons to stop my heart. But, I believe that component-wise, these suckers should be like Mack trucks. It's just the nuts and bolts like wiring or solder that's weak. I'm putting my money on a wire or solder being the problem.
One of the things that really bugs me about this unit, is the 2 prong plug. I'm no expert, but unless I see an inset double square on a piece of kit, 2 prongs on a plug make me nervous.
Jimi, was the hum happenning when you plugged into the Hi Z, or Lo Z? So far, with my shitbox amp and Crapocaster, one side or the other sounds the same to me, and the Lo Z balance pot doesn't seem to do anything to my ears. As a matter of fact, the connection points are mislabeled on the motherboard diagram. Connection points #2 and #3 are both labeled as Low Z In, when in fact Hi Z is #2, and Lo Z is #3. Plugging into Lo Z, and playing with the balance pot, I don't here any difference in the signal. UNLESS... having looked at the hardware again, it's only active if you plug 2 signals in. Then you could balance between the Hi and the Lo signals. After all, if there is no cable plugged in to a particular input, that input is grounded.
Strange days indeed my friends......
trying to breath. not easy. dicked around with it last nite for a little while, kinda got the mod to work a little.
replaced that cap again, brand new cap, same problem. wondering if it's installed backwards...but seems right, stripe is negative.
may try again today. i think trimmer r29 is broken down, i can't seem to read any resistance across it.
also notice something is up on the right side of the board...at one point i hit something and it came back, but i couldn't reproduce it again.
it's gotta be something stupid, but this thing is indeed overwhelming me. about ready to send it to R.G. with my credit card to see if he can figure it out, lol..
hang on in there bro! which cap? i'll have to recap (excuse the pun) on the schem but it's gotta be just before or after, right? could you temp a fixed resistor across r29 for testing? and if tapping the board is having some effect maybe a dry joint? bit of a reflow maybe? just thinking out loud, not been following as closely as i should and wanting to keep your spirits up.
Quote from: artifus on June 06, 2011, 10:44:24 AM
hang on in there bro! which cap? i'll have to recap (excuse the pun) on the schem but it's gotta be just before or after, right? could you temp a fixed resistor across r29 for testing? and if tapping the board is having some effect maybe a dry joint? bit of a reflow maybe? just thinking out loud, not been following as closely as i should and wanting to keep your spirits up.
Good point. Whenever I get a hold of old gear to repair the first thing I do is reflow solder everywhere. It's pretty much a given for anything 20+ years or older. And I'd say 50% of the time it is all that is wrong with the stuff I get. You'll get it working again Jimi.
Just wanted to chime in and say:
"Sixteen pages in less than a month.... HOT TOPIC!" :icon_eek:
Keeping an eye on this one. Looks promising :icon_wink:
Quote from: artifus on June 06, 2011, 10:44:24 AM
hang on in there bro! which cap? i'll have to recap (excuse the pun) on the schem but it's gotta be just before or after, right? could you temp a fixed resistor across r29 for testing? and if tapping the board is having some effect maybe a dry joint? bit of a reflow maybe? just thinking out loud, not been following as closely as i should and wanting to keep your spirits up.
This is so true. I've got an old Gibson 2x12 combo amp that started to crakle a while back, whenever I would play loud and clean through it. It would never do it when using distortion. I found that it was cracked solder joints. The board would just vibrate harder clean than dirty, hence the crackling. I reflowed all the soldering, and presto!, crackle gone.
I know this will be a bitch because it's a pain to pull the motherboard out far enough because of the wiring. I know this for a fact, from when I photographed the trace side, but here goes; Check the diagram, the trimmer resistances are marked. I don't have the diagram in front of me, but (for example) if it's a 10K, take an ordinary pot, put some leads on it, pull out the trimmer, and solder in the leads of the pot in it's place. Bridge the wiper of the temp pot to one of the outer legs, and by looking at the traces, you'll see which lead will solder to the bridged side, and the other solo.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 06, 2011, 10:23:48 AM
it's gotta be something stupid, but this thing is indeed overwhelming me. about ready to send it to R.G. with my credit card to see if he can figure it out, lol..
Besides that, I'm sure that R.G. would be just trilled to eye-ball one of these suckers in the flesh!
"Give me 500 cc's of adrenaline, and...... CLEAR!" ;D
lol...thanks for the support guys. means more than you know. :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on June 06, 2011, 11:56:53 AM
Just wanted to chime in and say:
"Sixteen pages in less than a month.... HOT TOPIC!" :icon_eek:
Keeping an eye on this one. Looks promising :icon_wink:
Lacky,
I tell you, I've got a SHITLOAD of effects. Rack effect, floor effect, pedals, processors, you name it. There probably isn't a tone on the planet a couldn't cop, and probably a bunch in there that don't exist... yet. My pedal board is double tiered, 6' long by 2' wide, and packed. That's all connected my 14 space rack, and that's packed.
BUT....
Playing through this thing, into a clean amp, is just nirvana. I've never experienced anything like it. It's nasty, and sweet. Confusing, yet soothing. It's like that bitch of a girlfriend that makes your life absolute HELL, but you just can't leave her behind you because the sex is sooo damn good.
Yes, I did spend the 1200$ because I felt like treating myself, but now it's become my personal mission in life to help in any way possible to clone this this.
So let it be written... so let it be done.
Just as a safety net under you, *everything* on there can be replaced, remember.
And I just wrapped up the final (I think) version of the fall plate board. It's 3" x 4". :icon_biggrin:
At some point you'll be able to put in a NEW fall plate board, and console board.
Quote from: R.G. on June 06, 2011, 12:47:33 PM
Just as a safety net under you, *everything* on there can be replaced, remember.
And I just wrapped up the final (I think) version of the fall plate board. It's 3" x 4". :icon_biggrin:
At some point you'll be able to put in a NEW fall plate board, and console board.
Hey R.G.,
3 x 4 :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: my god man! That will be amazing!!
I printed your wiring layout yesterday, and I'm going to sit down and fill in the blanks for you tonight. I'm going to do it by hand, scan it, and then post it back up here. I'll try to be neat as I can. Since I moved last week, all my usual resources are in boxes, but I do have access to a scanner and my girlfriends P.C.. I'll try and make some honey outta this dogshit for ya!
Cheers,
Dino
Actually, I got the fall plate board in 3"x4", the console board is 4"x1.8". 'Course this all assumes the schemos are correct... :icon_lol:
(http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/Ludwig_P2_Clone.jpg)
Quote from: R.G. on June 06, 2011, 04:00:30 PM
Actually, I got the fall plate board in 3"x4", the console board is 4"x1.8". 'Course this all assumes the schemos are correct... :icon_lol:
Looks good R.G., I like how you got rid of the extra long parallel traces to squeeze the components closer together! AND if it's really only 3" x 4" it will fit on the photosensitized boards I use!
Did you use .1" inline spacing on the transistor leads, or go for the triangle thing? I'm wondering if I can use standard inline sockets for those. The spacing looks tight enough that my transistor sockets might not fit.
definitely trimpot r29 is the issue...i shorted it, pink 2 &3 together, and i have formants. first thing i'm gonna do is take the board out and re-solder everything...if that don't cut it, i'm off to the store for more trimmers, hopefully can find a suitable replacement...
They're 0.1", three in line. The trimmers are Bourns 3319 on the fall plate, and 3306 on the console board. Non-electro caps are all 0.2" spacing box style. Transistors are all TO-92, EBC pinout.
There were some modest failures in there.
- I could not get the fall plate to route without jumper wires.
- I could not get at least one side free of off-board wires.
- I could not get all transistors or trimmer pots into the same orientation, although I did get the electros all facing the same way.
- all the diodes *were* the same direction, but I traded that away to get the console board down to 4" wide.
- I generally try to use 25mil traces on 50mil centers, but there were some tight places that needed to be closer than that; that's what takes it out of toner transfer territory.
- R74, the 3.9R power resistor really ought to be bigger, but I wasn't willing to sacrifice board space. I'd recommend making that a vertical ladder of four 1/2W 18R resistors just for luck if the implementation uses lamps. I really suspect that anyone cloning this will use LEDs anyway.
- Given the pressure I put on it for size, this layout is fairly rigid, in that big circuit changes are going to need a lot of rip-up and retry. It's a fixed-purpose board.
It's single sided, but I had to use six wires/jumpers on the fall plate to avoid going double sided. Probably a fair trade off. The console board is single sided, no jumpers. For commercial protos, I'd probably toss a grounded plane on top of them both, but they have complete ground paths without the plane, so the plane would just be icing on the cake.
The fall plate board is actually 3.00" x 4.00" as designed. The console board is another 4.00" by 1.80".
I quit using transistor sockets years ago. A transistor costs $0.05, and so few fail or get inserted wrong that I just clip them off and put another one in. In fact, I don't use IC sockets any more, either, except in unusual cases.
Quote from: R.G. on June 06, 2011, 04:43:33 PM
I quit using transistor sockets years ago. A transistor costs $0.05, and so few fail or get inserted wrong that I just clip them off and put another one in. In fact, I don't use IC sockets any more, either, except in unusual cases.
I was thinking of socketing them just for prototyping, to find modern transistors that work. Seems easier to socket those than to desolder a few dozen components if the first ones tried are not suitable.
Thanks for the rundown!
When might we see the transfer images posted?
Quote from: R.G. on June 06, 2011, 04:00:30 PM
'Course this all assumes the schemos are correct... :icon_lol:
When the gutshots went up, I checked the traces in the photos against the layouts I did from the schematics. The traces all went to the same place. There's still room for mistakes as far as component values or off-board wiring (like the preamp/treble booster thing), but the connections on the board appear to be as advertised.
Quote from: Keppy on June 06, 2011, 05:00:50 PM
I was thinking of socketing them just for prototyping, to find modern transistors that work. Seems easier to socket those than to desolder a few dozen components if the first ones tried are not suitable.
Oh, sure, be reasonable and prudent ... :icon_lol:
Thanks for the rundown!
Quote
When might we see the transfer images posted?
Good question. How much are you feeling like a guinea pig?
hi guys....good news, heck, GREAT news. i ran to the parts store and got jimpacks (remember those?) of all the trimmer values this thing took. i'm a sucker for overkill.
replaced r29 trimmer (150 ohm) with a 100 ohm trimmer, and she came back to life instantly. so i re-set the others, which all seemed to be fine (even tho i bought backups in case)
and she's working GREAT. :icon_mrgreen:
also replaced c1 with a 10mfd 250v cap. no more hum, no more microphonics. no idea why it needs that large a value voltage wise, but hey, i'm NOT complaining.
she now sounds just like i remember, that trimmer must have been really bad...i was having intermittent problems that made no sense, but now she's stable and seems to be healed. thank (the) god(dess)!!!
so i buttoned her up, and won't mess with her guts anymore...tho i am more than willing to open her up if anyone needs voltage or resistance readings etc.
thanks for the encouragement when i started to lose it...this is a precious thing to me, and the thought of losing it after a 33 year search was really disheartening.
but your suggestions helped me to clear my head, and figure it out. thank you all, from the bottom of my heart.
when my girlfriend goes out this week somewhere where i have a little time, i'll shoot a video demo of this thing.
i do have a couple suggestions for mods, tho....
the 100 ohm trimmer, r-29 may be worth moving off the board to a pot...this is the crucial trimmer to set the range of the formants.
r31 is also cool to replace...it not only sets the range of the pot, but also controls how much feedback the unit has. you can literally turn it into a free running oscillator under wah control....really cool!! i wouldn't do it to the original, but it may be worth exploring for the clone/improvement.
anyways...thanks again, every one!!
namaste
jimi
Quote from: R.G. on June 06, 2011, 06:51:41 PM
Quote
When might we see the transfer images posted?
Good question. How much are you feeling like a guinea pig?
Well, I do have a wah shell/pot I haven't built anything with yet...
I guess if you're looking for a guinea pig, I could build it. I was actually about to order the parts anyway. ;)
I don't have a huge stock of transistors, and this takes about thirty, so I'll need some suggestions on what to order. I have many types, just not a ton of any one of them.
BTW, did you include that weird off-board circuit on either board when you laid them out?
Great news, Jimi!
thanks keppy...i am crazy relieved!!! ;)
i am psyched you're gonna play guinea pig...i will still buy the boards from ya when the time comes, cuz i wanna build a bunch of these for all my friends!
;)
Sounds good Jimi! It's R.G.'s layout now though, so I'll need his permission to sell you boards :icon_exclaim:
ok. maybe we can all work something out. ;)
Quote from: Keppy on June 06, 2011, 07:45:14 PM
I guess if you're looking for a guinea pig, I could build it. I was actually about to order the parts anyway. ;)
One has to be tough to try a first build!
QuoteI don't have a huge stock of transistors, and this takes about thirty, so I'll need some suggestions on what to order. I have many types, just not a ton of any one of them.
If it were me, I'd buy 25 to 100 of whatever I needed most of. That gets the price per transistor down under $0.10 each. Some, like the 2N3904, are as little as $2.00 per hundred.
I still need to do some introspection on the design. Clearly, the transistor at the voltage-regulator end has to be a high voltage type, and a 30V device there will probably be failing quickly. I know Jimi has sworn off messing with his unit, but perhaps we can get pin voltages on the transistors before he seals it up for good. :icon_biggrin:
QuoteBTW, did you include that weird off-board circuit on either board when you laid them out?
I didn't. I reasoned that it was a late inclusion, and may need tweaking anyway. In any case, it's simple - I think. I haven't done the head work to get the schemo for that out yet.
If you want to do a photo version of the layout, I'll help you get one done just to check the accuracy.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 06, 2011, 07:53:21 PMi will still buy the boards from ya when the time comes, cuz i wanna build a bunch of these for all my friends!
Quote from: Keppy on June 06, 2011, 07:55:59 PMIt's R.G.'s layout now though, so I'll need his permission to sell you boards
As for more boards, I quit coordinating group buys years ago, because it takes so much time. However, If someone wants to do the legwork, organize the herd of cats, collect up money, handle the shipping, etc, etc., commercial boards could be had at a reasonable price for a limited quantity. I *do not* want to go into the board sales business again. And I *am not* interested in making money on boards. So someone who wants to go to the trouble can run this deal. I will not. I also do not have time to debug copies of a clone which may or may not work. So if one of you guys wants to mess with this, you need to PM me.
I'm just being straightforward about this. There may be hidden problems. Someone who was conservative and cautious would wait until at least one guinea pig had verified that the layout could produce a working unit. There is a fair chance of issues lurking inside. And also the wiring between the two boards and the controls (not all of which have been scoped out and become well known yet)
I feel grateful to the folks who gave me a pot load of information. The least I can do is provide some information in return.
hi guys, i'm a little afraid to open the top up again, as with my luck, i'll break something else, lol...
but i'd be more than willing to open the fall plate up and read voltages on all the transistors if it'll be helpful!
one question...can i blow anything up doing that? it's just black lead to ground and red lead to the different legs of the transistors, right?
should i get a blow up of the layout done and write the voltages near each part (maybe more trouble than it's worth) or is it cool to say, do it like this:
t1
e=
b=
c=
and so on down the line? will that be enough info, or is it too confusing to do it that way?
i humbly await your instructions, sirs! ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 04, 2011, 01:12:50 PM
ok, i figured since there's only like 5 caps in total that i thought were 25mf, i blew the schematics up about 7x the original size...
i still can barely tell, but it appears that on the bottom board, c14, 22,23 and 32 are ALL 2.5mfd, and on the top board, c1 is also 2.5mfd.
thanks r.g., without you i would have probably messed up heinously!! ;)
so here's an updated and hopefully right BOM for the electrolytic caps:
bottom board
c 1 10mf@25v
c 13 10mf@25v
c 14 2.5mf@25v
c 15 10mf@25v
c 21 10mf@25v
c 22 2.5mf@25v
c 23 2.5mf@25v
c24 10mf@25v
c 31 10mf@25v
c 32 2.5mf@25v
top board
c1 2.5mf@25v
c6 1mf@25v
c8 100mf@25v
c9 10mf@25v
c10 10mf@25v
c11 100mf@25v
c11 100mf@25v
c12 50mf@25v
There are a couple of electros missing from your list: C6 on the bottom board (10uF) and C2 on the top board (1uF). Probably no biggie since the electros appear to be 25v across the board, but it'd be nice to complete the list.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 06, 2011, 09:02:39 PM
hi guys, i'm a little afraid to open the top up again, as with my luck, i'll break something else, lol...
but i'd be more than willing to open the fall plate up and read voltages on all the transistors if it'll be helpful!
I don't blame you a bit.
Quote
one question...can i blow anything up doing that? it's just black lead to ground and red lead to the different legs of the transistors, right?
You're correct - black lead to ground, red lead to each point you measure, then write it down, go the next. There is little danger in this. The only danger is if your probe slips off the lead you're measuring and shorts it to another lead. That's probably not a big deal in a low power circuit like this. However, just to improve the chances of not having even a non-fatal booboo, you can wrap the probe tip in tape or paint it with nail polish except for the very pointed tip so a slip is likely not to be even an issue. Not a big danger at all.
Quoteshould i get a blow up of the layout done and write the voltages near each part (maybe more trouble than it's worth) or is it cool to say, do it like this:
t1 e= b= c=
and so on down the line? will that be enough info, or is it too confusing to do it that way?
That would be fine for my purposes. No need to annotate the drawing for me. I probably want to include a couple of voltages on filter caps, as well. It will really fill in the operation for me.
It's fine to just do the fall plate board. I'm curious about the console board, but not enough to ask you to open it back up. :icon_biggrin:
guys, just as an afterthought...
make all the cap voltages MINiMUM 63 volts, and the bigger ones 100 volts.
25 may be asking for problems.
that said, ya know, the "mystery circuit" can be easily defeated simply by pulling off one lead from the fall board...
so tomorrow, i'm gonna do that, and report back as to what the heck it seems to do. it's either a preamp, or a treble boost...or a simple buffer, it's a .1mf ceramic disk, one resistor, and a single transistor. it connects on the right side of the fall board (with the notch cut out at the bottom) fifth notch up from the bottom, (parrallelled with the red lead)
and on the left side 2nd from the bottom. so it should be easy to disable just by pulling that one lead. if the thing stops working, ghosts start flying around, or anything truly weird happens it should be obvious...but i have a feeling it's there to limit bass on the input to limit motorboating, as this circuit will run away into oscillation all over the place if you let it.
if it doesn't seem to have any effect, i'm with R.G....screw it, get it out of there. but if it IS crucial part of it, hey, we'll know, so hold off on etching a board or anything til i can report back. no sense starting to build up a clone, and then do what ludwig did, right? if it's important, i can't imagine adding a couple more components to the board at this stage would be that big a deal. if rg's right, cool...but if he's not, better to catch it now in my opinion.
also that said, i will definitely pull that wire tomorrow to see what happens...may take me a day or two to get the voltages, as my woman is ready to slaughter me in my sleep for spending so much time online and in the phase II's guts!! :icon_eek: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_lol:
onwards and upwards...i too will try to be a guinea pig, once we know what transistors to use, etc..
more tomorrow, g'nite guys...peace!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 06, 2011, 10:27:20 PM
if it doesn't seem to have any effect, i'm with R.G....screw it, get it out of there. but if it IS crucial part of it, hey, we'll know, so hold off on etching a board or anything til i can report back. no sense starting to build up a clone, and then do what ludwig did, right? if it's important, i can't imagine adding a couple more components to the board at this stage would be that big a deal. if rg's right, cool...but if he's not, better to catch it now in my opinion.
Oh, sure, do the smart, right thing. :icon_lol:
Don't worry, I'm not etching yet.
Sorry about my earlier post, Jimi. Upon further review, I found you answered my cap question already. :icon_redface: This thread's getting long...
Quote from: R.G. on June 06, 2011, 10:59:07 PM
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 06, 2011, 10:27:20 PM
if it doesn't seem to have any effect, i'm with R.G....screw it, get it out of there. but if it IS crucial part of it, hey, we'll know, so hold off on etching a board or anything til i can report back. no sense starting to build up a clone, and then do what ludwig did, right? if it's important, i can't imagine adding a couple more components to the board at this stage would be that big a deal. if rg's right, cool...but if he's not, better to catch it now in my opinion.
Oh, sure, do the smart, right thing. :icon_lol:
Don't worry, I'm not etching yet.
sarcasm...just one more free service...lol
i'm learning!! ;)
no worries keppy!
Well, it's late now. House is quiet, everyone's asleep. Test drove a Murano today, the girlfriends thrilled with it. But, my mind was elsewhere. Here it is;
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/LudwigPhase2005.jpg)
My eyes are just buggered from tracing wires, but it's a good tierd. I'm a bit hazy on the lamps, but between you me and the internet, I wouldn't waste any time with that. LED's all the way baby!
R.G., I hope this does what you need my man. For the most part, you were right on. Just a few fixes and addons here and there. This is exactly how mine is wired. If anything is unclear, or yoou need other info, just hollar buddy.
Jimi, MY MAN!!!!! great news. I knew it had to be something stupid. Nuts and bolts buddy, nuts and bolts.
Cheers,
Dino
Beautiful! Thanks Dino!
Have either of you tried stereo output yet?
Nope, not yet. My rig is completely discombobulated right now from the move. It's more like 9 speaker surround. There's 9 boxes, and there's a bit in every one :icon_lol:
epic work ,my brother!!! you did it, you cracked the nut that couldn't be cracked!!!
;)
i am WICKED proud to be associated with you guys on this endeavour... this is way too cool!!!
and yes, i have tried the stereo function. it's like on an old eh clone theory, sorta kinda...the phase II effect comes out the primary out put,
the dry, but buffered input signal comes out the stereo jack.
btw...something someone pointed out to me is that chris wood appears to have used one of these on his sax in "low spark of high heeled boys" by traffic.
there's actually a video i've seen of it at one point. neat trivia, that.
but anyways...onward and upward!! ;)
Latest wiring - I think I got it all in there. See:
http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/Ludwig Phase II wiring.pdf (http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/Ludwig%20Phase%20II%20wiring.pdf)
Questions:
Is the Fuzz Switch two different SPDT switches or one DPDT?
Console pin 12 not used at all?
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 07, 2011, 01:00:29 PM
the stereo function. it's like on an old eh clone theory, sorta kinda...the phase II effect comes out the primary out put,
the dry, but buffered input signal comes out the stereo jack.
If I read the wiring right, the stereo switch switches the stereo jack between dry and grounded. One direction of that switch would mute the stereo out.
Quotesomeone pointed out to me is that chris wood appears to have used one of these on his sax in "low spark of high heeled boys" by traffic.
OK, now I gotta go listen to it again. That's one of my favorite songs of all time.
yes, the stereo jack is dry, but when off passes no signal.
gonna look at the pdf...sure it's better.
the fuzz switch is indeed one dpdt bro.
listen loud.
;)
if you can find the youtube of it, where winwood is playing the green gibson firebird (maybe not on that song) i think you'll see it.
;)
That is my favorite Traffic record! I didn't realize that was a Ludwig, now I REALLY have to build this thing. I'm pretty excited about this thing. I have to go to charm city for the International Microwave Symposium for work and then the nap town art show with my wife, then I have some recording to do and a gig to play so it's gonna be a few weeks before I can do anything about it. As soon as I get a chance to build this thing, I'm all over it. I'm trying to figure out what kind of enclosure I'm going with, I actually really do love the original, but it's just so big and not conducive to putting in my semi-flight case pedal board.
after watching the video, i'm not so sure...my friend probably never actually saw the ludwig and thought that was it. beats me!
Quote from: R.G. on June 07, 2011, 01:22:40 PM
Console pin 12 not used at all?
Quote
Nope. It's actually trace bridged to 11, but they soldered directly to the pot, instead of using another of those stupid connectors (employee of the month award there).
The rest, as per Jimi's confirmation.
Wiring drawing looks dead on. I'll do a final confirmation later tonight. A copy is gonna get put inside my unit for sure!!!
Likewise Jimi :icon_wink:
Damn... I muffed the qoute dodad!
:D
Keppy volunteered to try out the first one. He has the files now.
I'm having a hard time locating any switch that will do that either or both thing. I may have to design some electronic replacement.
Quote from: R.G. on June 07, 2011, 05:35:01 PM
I'm having a hard time locating any switch that will do that either or both thing. I may have to design some electronic replacement.
Looks similar to a guitar pickup switch to me. Otherwise it could be split into a couple SPSTs couldn't it?
J
Quote from: Keppy on June 07, 2011, 05:47:54 PM
Looks similar to a guitar pickup switch to me.
Just went and looked, and it appears a standard 3-way pickup switch will do the job. The two center leads that are normally joined together for guitar output will just have to be bent apart.
Quote from: Keppy on June 07, 2011, 05:55:22 PM
Just went and looked, and it appears a standard 3-way pickup switch will do the job. The two center leads that are normally joined together for guitar output will just have to be bent apart.
Yeah, a guitar pickup switch would do it, but it may have issues inside a pedal box. I think this would fit in one of the larger thin hammonds. I was trying to find a set of switches which would do the job but could all be had in the same cosmetic style. But that may not be possible.
Actually, I think the idea is to leave them so they both make contact in the middle.
two mini toggles, tape the paddles together.
Rock n roll!
Quote from: R.G. on June 07, 2011, 06:28:04 PM
Actually, I think the idea is to leave them so they both make contact in the middle.
They'll both make contact, but need separate outputs, right? I was referring to bending the solder points, not the contact points in the switch itself. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding the diagram. Center position links 24 & 25, 26 & 23, but NOT 25 & 26.
But, since I'm probably using mini toggles for all the other switches, I'll probably just go with 2xSPST. Although, now that I think about it, that allows one to select "neither," which was not an option on the original unit. Hmmm...
Quote from: Keppy on June 07, 2011, 06:46:05 PM
They'll both make contact, but need separate outputs, right? I was referring to bending the solder points, not the contact points in the switch itself. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding the diagram. Center position links 24 & 25, 26 & 23, but NOT 25 & 26.
Actually, the difficulty is that I can't write down what I'm thinking very clearly. :icon_biggrin:
What I meant the drawing to show, and to say was that the single pole switches between 24 and 25, and 23 and 26 are both closed in the center position. pushing that lozenge-shaped actuator in the drawing upwards leaves 23 and 26 together and pushing it down from center leaves 24 and 25 together and opens 23 an 26. Which is what I think you mean... I do fine with the electronics, it's the ENGLISH I can't do. :icon_lol:
QuoteBut, since I'm probably using mini toggles for all the other switches, I'll probably just go with 2xSPST. Although, now that I think about it, that allows one to select "neither," which was not an option on the original unit. Hmmm...
That'll work. I was looking for rockers with a center-both-on position. Those exist, but they're rare and not Mouser-stocked, which is my first test for "is a part available?".
Here's another question for those enlightened guys who have one. When/how/which lights come on with the actions of which switches?
Quote from: R.G. on June 07, 2011, 07:02:21 PM
What I meant the drawing to show, and to say was that the single pole switches between 24 and 25, and 23 and 26 are both closed in the center position. pushing that lozenge-shaped actuator in the drawing upwards leaves 23 and 26 together and pushing it down from center leaves 24 and 25 together and opens 23 an 26. Which is what I think you mean...
Yup, we're saying the same thing :icon_razz:
OK, I did find them at Mouser. They're about $10 each, minimum.
I think I'll figure something else out.
OK, got it.
This is a weird use. That switch is allowing/disallowing two unrelated things that are not signal voltages, but carry odd bits of control current to two different circuits. Ordinary CMOS switches can't live in the 35V (or more) environment, and simple BJT, JFET and MOSFET switches don't conduct well enough bidirectionally to be simple. Worse, the switch application does not lend itself to shunt switching (which is easy with BJTs). It needs a series switch with low on resistance and high off resistance.
If you look at that switch in the reverse direction, it's deciding which of two simple SPST switches must be forced off. In the center, it allows them both. So we can use a center-off toggle switch, and make the two non-center throws be an inhibit of one or the other of the SPSTs. In the middle, neither is inhibited. But we need a relay for that.
Mouser has relays, and that's an OK thing to do, but they're biggish, even the small ones, and wear out, arc, etc. But Mouser also has MOSFET-output solid state relays. The Avago 630-ASSR-4119-001E is an SPST in a 6-pin DIP, and it turns on when there is 3ma of current through it's LED input side. It turns on to less than 10 ohms, which is close enough to zero for these applications. So we can use two of them ($1.65 each) plus a couple of BJTs which are turned off by the "on" positions of the On-Off-On toggle, and have the same logical and analog function. And it offers the possibility to get cosmetically matching switches to control things, so the box looks purdy (that's Texican for "looks nice".)
That one took a while.
Quote from: R.G. on June 07, 2011, 07:02:21 PM
Quote from: Keppy on June 07, 2011, 06:46:05 PM
They'll both make contact, but need separate outputs, right? I was referring to bending the solder points, not the contact points in the switch itself. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding the diagram. Center position links 24 & 25, 26 & 23, but NOT 25 & 26.
Actually, the difficulty is that I can't write down what I'm thinking very clearly. :icon_biggrin:
What I meant the drawing to show, and to say was that the single pole switches between 24 and 25, and 23 and 26 are both closed in the center position. pushing that lozenge-shaped actuator in the drawing upwards leaves 23 and 26 together and pushing it down from center leaves 24 and 25 together and opens 23 an 26. Which is what I think you mean... I do fine with the electronics, it's the ENGLISH I can't do. :icon_lol:
QuoteBut, since I'm probably using mini toggles for all the other switches, I'll probably just go with 2xSPST. Although, now that I think about it, that allows one to select "neither," which was not an option on the original unit. Hmmm...
That'll work. I was looking for rockers with a center-both-on position. Those exist, but they're rare and not Mouser-stocked, which is my first test for "is a part available?".
Here's another question for those enlightened guys who have one. When/how/which lights come on with the actions of which switches?
the lights are always on as soon as you power up. all of them are. the formant switches are white when up, and red when down.
the fuzz switch and the others are either two colors or three...i don't have it right in front of me.
the lights don't change color, the switches don't change color..depending on which way the switch is tripped, a different colored piece of gel like used in spotlights is put over the lamp, thereby changing the color thru the clear trigger part of the switch.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 07, 2011, 09:05:11 PM
the lights are always on as soon as you power up. all of them are. the formant switches are white when up, and red when down.
the fuzz switch and the others are either two colors or three...i don't have it right in front of me.
the lights don't change color, the switches don't change color..depending on which way the switch is tripped, a different colored piece of gel like used in spotlights is put over the lamp, thereby changing the color thru the clear trigger part of the switch.
OK. Do the lights on the fall plate go on and off when you hit the footswitches? The wiring looks like they do.
yes. as long as one of the three filter switches on the right side of the control board is in the up position, you have a wah effect, vowel, parallell wah, or counter or any combination of the three...and it's always active as a wah of one kind or another if one of the three switches is thrown.
the fall board switches when on illuminate the corresponding lamp on the floorboard. when the stereo switch is on, the light is on, and the second output jack is active. when off, it shorts the jack to ground. the bypass switch is on when the effect is in bypass, rather than "on" tho, which is backwards from normal convention.
the switches up top really do look like gibson style pickup switches, i thing a three pickup style les paul style switch would work...the original ones are about 2.5 inches long and vertical.
when the formant switches are off, so is the wah...in that case, it's like a treble-boosted buffer, mine is just above unity gain.
when ya kick on the fuzz, it's rude...sounds much better when one of the formant switches is on, then it's reminiscent of a morley power wah fuzz.
the percussion repeat (labeled fuzz repeat) is weak tho, and barely does anything other than tick. when i broke it the other day tho, it worked just like the percussion repeat on an electronic organ...it was cool, kind of a fuzzy tremolo.
the switches on the fall board's lamps are
red : stereo and bypass
blue: animation
green : fuzz
on the control board, left to right,
fuzz down orange
fuzz up red
slow is orange, fast is green
select switch down is white, in the middle green, up is blue
the formant switches are either red when down or green when up.
hope that helps.
OMFG!!!!!! I may have hit pay dirt. I found this vintage ludwig drum site, so I decided to send them a question about the Phase II documentation. I got this response;
"Good question. I might have some literature on this item. I can tell you that
Bill Ludwig III is a friend of ours and we have talked about it.
He and his dad did not really know much about electronics and it ended up
costing a lot more then expected. It was a flop and they ended up giving many
away to schools to try and get some interest with it.
I have all of the original order forms and who got them with the serial numbers.
One of those projects yet to be displayed to the public.
Let me do some digging.
You can also find me on the VintageDrumGuide.com
David"
:icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
How's THAT for a kick in the pants?
Nice one Dino!
Jimi,
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 06, 2011, 10:27:20 PM
that said, ya know, the "mystery circuit" can be easily defeated simply by pulling off one lead from the fall board...
Try this yet?
nah, gotta wait til the psycho girlfriend is out of the house. my life is insane enough already without dealing with her obnoxiousness. i will try it tomorrow. maybe dino can do it?
pretty sure again, it's there to limit bass so the thing doesn't motorboat out of control.
dino...dude....nice work!!
;)
From the last round of circuit info, I found that the terminal strip circuit is an amplifier between what would be the output and the "bypass balance" pot. It amplifies the audio output. However, it's a very odd amplifier. The base of that transistor goes to pin 6 on the fall plate, no biasing components, and on the schemos that point is DC-blocked. I wonder if the added 1M resistor that I see on the pics of the fall plate board are to provide some trickle of bias to this.
In any case, it's output is what would be the filters' output, and its collector runs through that 0.1uF cap to the bypass balance pot. The 47K pulls this to ground. The 10K is a collector load to +35V. The 4401 is a 40 volt Vce device, so they're playing with device failure there, but with regulated 35V, well, maybe it survives. No emitter resistance, no biasing. It provides gain, probably dirty gain, until shown otherwise.
I have a batch of 2N5551 NPN and 2N5401 PNP devices here. They're 160V Vce devices with a gain of 100-150. I think they will work fine in this. The commoner 2N3904 and 2N4401 will probably work but the more I look at a 35V supply, the more nervous I get. 'Course, it's not near 35V on the analog/fall plate board, but certainly the devices on the console board are running high. These things are common, and cheap, about $0.6 each at Mouser. I bought 100 each for a project a while back, and still have about 80 of each.
R.G., would this explain why the signal get so bright when running through the effect, but with no fuzz, or animation on. I'm wondering if it would be possible to mount this strip circuit onto the motherboard. Worse case, if one really wants to bypass the circuit, they could jumper it on the board, but at least we would be staying true to the original.
I'm still wondering though, why the fuzz slider reacts the way it does. In Fuzz, it goes from weak fuzz, to ugly gated, with the best (strongest) fuzz is in the middle of the range. In Fuzz/Voice, it goes from no sound at all, to full sound (fuzz and filtering), like a volume. Wierd-a-mundo man.
I wrote back to David at vintagedrum, and asked him if we could have any literature that was production related. If this guy has all the order forms, who knows what else he's got :icon_question:
Jimi, do you mind doing the test on the terminal strip? My soldering iron just crapped out on me, and I won't have time to get one before next week. Thanks dude.
R.G., I've gone over your revised wiring diagram, and I'm pleased to say that it is correct. The only thing I should point out is that both the Hi-Z, and Lo-Z input jack inputs are switched to ground when unplugged. The output jacks are normal mono jacks. Your interpretation of the FFM/Both/Fuz Rpt. switch is correct. Wouldn't a mini DP three-position (on-on-on) work for this? Like model DP-6 on this page; http://www.e-switch.com/Portals/0/Series_Pdf/100.pdf (http://www.e-switch.com/Portals/0/Series_Pdf/100.pdf). Use one set of poles for the fuzz rpt., the other for ffm, and both wound be on in the middle. Maybe even a 3 pole (or model 4P-6, since no 3PDT on-on-on is listed) for switching the LED's?
As I mentioned before, I'm not concerned with the lamps. Personally, I would prefer to step down some DC and use LED's. If I want to get really fancy, I could use RBG LED's, and get switches with the extra poles to switch the colors, but that's not even a blip on the radar just yet.
I will most definately be using some sort of DC power supply, whether it be wall wart, or integrated, I'm not sure yet. Since there is just so much to cram into an enclosure here, I think an external supply will be called for here. I don't want to build another huge effect, I've already got one :icon_wink: Besides, between 2 Skyrippers, a Gristelizer, Uglyface, Parallel Universe, and a myriad of other Fuzz and noise makers, real estate on my board is at a premium :icon_lol:.
i willl try to test it without the terminal board later if i can. things are very uneasy on the homefront at the moment. :icon_cry:
Tuning hint...
Trimmer R20 seems to reall tune in the yoyoyo effect. This is my set up:
-Fuzz off, Animation on
-FFM intensity at max
-Rate around 3 (not too fast)
-Select switch on FFM or Both
-Formant B (Counter) on
Now strum your guitar, and back off the treadle until you start to get the yoyoyo sound. The treadle should be about the half-way between toe and heel position. Now, if you tweak the R20 trimmer, you'll hear it vary between yoyoyoyo, and wowowow. You can really dial in between a "y", and a "w" here.
You can use trimmer R29 on the motherboard to fine tune the frequency (hi-lo) for the "yo" at this point. This should define it further.
Since all the formants interdependant on the trimmers, be sure to carefully mark, or measure resistances before twiddling. Then, listen to the other trajectories for changes. Everything is a trade-off here.
If you want to change the treadle position of where you get the yoyoyo, you can jump some teeth on the treadle pot, BUT WARNING!!! this will also throw out everything else. So, personally, get your foot used to finding that sweet spot.
Neatoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoyo :icon_lol:
Quote from: digi2t on June 08, 2011, 07:44:35 AM
I'm wondering if it would be possible to mount this strip circuit onto the motherboard. Worse case, if one really wants to bypass the circuit, they could jumper it on the board, but at least we would be staying true to the original.
OK. Did. Updated Keppy with new files.
QuoteI'm still wondering though, why the fuzz slider reacts the way it does. In Fuzz, it goes from weak fuzz, to ugly gated, with the best (strongest) fuzz is in the middle of the range. In Fuzz/Voice, it goes from no sound at all, to full sound (fuzz and filtering), like a volume. Wierd-a-mundo man.
The controls do ugly things inside the circuits. The fuzz is a very odd, harsh one, as I've noted. They actually turn the power supply up and down on the fuzz in fuzz mode. Probably other stuff I haven't noticed yet.
I like to run through circuits like this because I learn bits and pieces along the way. Sometimes I learn things to NOT do too.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 08, 2011, 09:40:45 AM
i willl try to test it without the terminal board later if i can. things are very uneasy on the homefront at the moment. :icon_cry:
Keep the home front in good shape if you can. It waited over 30 years for you. It'll wait a little longer.
Quote from: digi2t on June 08, 2011, 10:09:29 AM
you'll hear it vary between yoyoyoyo, and wowowow. You can really dial in between a "y", and a "w" here.
In voice formant terms, it's varying between "eee" and "O", and our ears pick that up as "yoy-yoy". The waw is "ooooo" => "ahhh" =>"oooo"=> "ahhhh".
Quote from: digi2t on June 08, 2011, 09:17:43 AM
Your interpretation of the FFM/Both/Fuz Rpt. switch is correct. Wouldn't a mini DPDT three-position (on-on-on) work for this? Like model DP-6 on this page; http://www.e-switch.com/Portals/0/Series_Pdf/100.pdf (http://www.e-switch.com/Portals/0/Series_Pdf/100.pdf). Use one set of poles for the fuzz rpt., the other for ffm, and both wound be on in the middle. Maybe even a 3 pole (or model 4P-6, since no 3PDT on-on-on is listed) for switching the LED's?
Any thoughts on this R.G.? It seems it would work on paper. Unless I'm missing something.
Quote from: digi2t on June 08, 2011, 01:06:59 PM
Any thoughts on this R.G.? It seems it would work on paper. Unless I'm missing something.
By golly, you're right! That could be made to work. Using pins 2,3 and 5,4 it would do it. And only $5.31. Good catch. Mouser also stocks the matching toggles in that line in DPDT.
Keppy is doing a great job of looking over layouts. He found a couple of bugs, and I've updated him with new files.
Excellent! In the meantime, more news from the Ludwig Guru...
I recieved this email from him today, in response to my plea for information;
"Hello! that is me
Here is the quick story for you.
Dick Schory worked for Ludwig. He had some pull in the company because of the Dick Schory Percussion Ensemble which traveled the country on behalf of Ludwig.
He was in a meeting at Ludwig and basically said at some point everyone in the country is going to own a drum and it is time to move into another area. This actually got the Ludwigs thinking.
So Dick had an electronics guy who designed this unit (I'm getting his name) and instead of the Ludwigs outsourcing the eletronics work they decided to do it all in-house.
They devoted an entire 1/2 floor in the factoy, made it dust free and made all of the components in-house. Welding the electronics and making the unit.
Bill Ludwig remembers either 500 or 1000 were made and they ended up being to expensive because of the way they were manufactured. They were drum makers not electronics makers.
It ended up costing $450 and they could not sell them. Once they realized they did not sell, they gave the salesman a few to travel with and if a dealer was mad or unhappy of drum shipments the salesman would give them one of these units.
It was designed with the lights so on stage you knew what it was doing. He remembers it was also was easy to pack up for travel.
Bill Ludwig III is going to call Dick Schory for me and see i he has any of the schematics or other history.
I have a bunch here, but not handy. When I start looking I sometimes can spend hours digging through it.
I will do it for you, it might take some time.
David"
You cannot imagine how profusely I thanked him in my reply. My knee's are still bleeding. :-* :-* :-* :-*
Jimi, did you ever think, 19 pages ago, what kind of a monster this was going to turn into :icon_twisted: MAN! am I glad I came along for the ride bro!
been one hell of a ride, for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_biggrin:
This thread right here is what the internet is for ;D
It will fit in a Hammond 1590DD if you use e-switch 100 series DPDT toggle switches and round pots, as well as a remote rocker pedal.
From Mouser current prices in ones, this costs over $60 for the box, switches, pots, and jacks, exclusive of the PCBs, PCB mounted parts, wiring, knobs, and remote rocker pedal.
It's likely that cost of parts by the time you're done is going to be about $100.
Now I remember why they call economics "the dismal science".
Quote from: R.G. on June 08, 2011, 02:28:19 PM
It will fit in a Hammond 1590DD if you use e-switch 100 series DPDT toggle switches and round pots, as well as a remote rocker pedal.
At the moment, I'm planning to use a 1590D. Same size, but deeper. Better safe than sorry...
I'm gonna poke around on Mouser and see if I can find any 4x5 photosensitized boards so I can etch this in one piece. If anyone has a link to save me some searching, let me know!
Found 'em. This will make it easier on me. For the one size he sells, though, Steve beats Mouser's price by half!
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=presensitized (http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=presensitized)
I've been day dreaming of late of a 1U rack unit. Highly Liquid MIDI decoders to control the switching, and pots. Then I can use my FCB1010 to control it.
Dreeeeeeeamer, silly little dreeeeeeeamer.....
Quote from: digi2t on June 08, 2011, 01:33:59 PM
Here is the quick story for you.
Dick Schory worked for Ludwig. He had some pull in the company because of the Dick Schory Percussion Ensemble which traveled the country on behalf of Ludwig.
He was in a meeting at Ludwig and basically said at some point everyone in the country is going to own a drum and it is time to move into another area. This actually got the Ludwigs thinking.
So Dick had an electronics guy who designed this unit (I'm getting his name) and instead of the Ludwigs outsourcing the eletronics work they decided to do it all in-house.
They devoted an entire 1/2 floor in the factoy, made it dust free and made all of the components in-house. Welding the electronics and making the unit.
Bill Ludwig remembers either 500 or 1000 were made and they ended up being to expensive because of the way they were manufactured. They were drum makers not electronics makers.
It ended up costing $450 and they could not sell them. Once they realized they did not sell, they gave the salesman a few to travel with and if a dealer was mad or unhappy of drum shipments the salesman would give them one of these units.
It was designed with the lights so on stage you knew what it was doing. He remembers it was also was easy to pack up for travel.
Bill Ludwig III is going to call Dick Schory for me and see i he has any of the schematics or other history.
I have a bunch here, but not handy. When I start looking I sometimes can spend hours digging through it.
I will do it for you, it might take some time.
The originals cost $450? Adjusting for inflation, you got a steal, Dino!
Anyone check the taper of the pots yet?
Quote from: Keppy on June 09, 2011, 01:17:50 AM
Anyone check the taper of the pots yet?
Oh... good question. I'm assuming they're linear.
Get it? Slide pot.... linear..... :icon_biggrin: oh I just kill me!
OK, a bit of decorum now. Seriously, I didn't check, but they should be all linear. When I was measuring the resistances, I didn't notice any humps in the readings. Then again, I wasn't looking for them. The only one that may not be, could be the Bypass Balance pot, but I would think that's linear as well. I mean, considering the application. What do you think guys?
Yeah... 450$, according to the CPI Inflation calculator, that's 2608$ in 2011 money. Not including taxes. Or mojo.
i couldn't tell a linear taper pot if it made me walk a straight line....
most of the pots i was familiar would kinda creep up on ya, does that mean audio taper?
seriously, i wouldn't know the answer...if someone could enlighten me, that would be hip.
i bet rg will say to read the secret life of pots, which i have read and revisited...i think i'm like kelly bundy tho, can only fit in so much info before preceeding info is lost..
:D
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 09, 2011, 10:52:57 AM
i couldn't tell a linear taper pot if it made me walk a straight line....
most of the pots i was familiar would kinda creep up on ya, does that mean audio taper?
seriously, i wouldn't know the answer...if someone could enlighten me, that would be hip.
i bet rg will say to read the secret life of pots, which i have read and revisited...i think i'm like kelly bundy tho, can only fit in so much info before preceeding info is lost..
Let's try it more simply. A linear pot is just that - linear. Put 9V across a linear pot, turn it to the middle of its rotation, you get (about) 4.5V. Turn it 1/4 of the way, 2.25V.
An audio taper pot is designed to be the reverse of the human ear's sensitivity. The human ear hears quiet sounds very sensitively, but gets less and less sensitive as the sounds get louder. So to get a knob that produces about equal changes in perceived loudness in the ear per unit of pot turn, you have to have the pot put out very little, increasing slowly in the first part of its rotation where the ear is most sensitive to changes in sound, then come on strong later after the pot reaches "crossover" where the ear is getting less sensitive.
If you put 9V on an audio (also called log) taper pot, turn it to 1/2 way, the output is about 0.9V. You reach 10% of voltage at about half travel.
A reverse log pot does the reverse: at 1/2 the turn, it is already at 90% of the voltage. This is useful in setting oscillator frequency especially.
Did that help?
yes it did indeed. thank you! that was described in a way even my prefrontallobotomized brain could comprehend!! :icon_mrgreen:
man, dino, can't wait to hear if your new friend can come up with more documentation!
i'm putting everything i can find on the phase II into a folder, when all is said and done, i'll make it into a zip file and have it hosted somewhere for posterity.
Yeah, it's gonna be interesting.
In the meantime, I was missing a cable strain grommet on the fall plate, for the harness that goes through the transfo then up to the console. After some research this one works perfect, and looks identical to the other as well; Mouser P/N 836-1517
It's made by Heyco. Got them today, and just installed it, and it looks stock. The only thing left now cosmetically, are the footswitch caps, one handle knob, and the plastic handle trims.
Does the Bypass Balance pot set the volume of the buffered signal when the effect is bypassed, or am I reading the wiring diagram wrong? Also, is it worth building the stereo out since that's just buffered dry signal?
Here's what I'm thinking of doing:
-Replace Bypass Balance pot with a Master Volume pot
-Leave out stereo jack/switch
-Leave out Lo Z input
-True bypass
I wanted to run these ideas by you guys before making any changes to the design, since I'm the guinea pig and all. Jimi and Dino, do you think these changes will affect the character of the unit as you know it? Would you miss the stereo out or the Lo Z input if they were gone? Do you wish it had a master volume?
Jimi and Dino, have either of you measured the AC voltage off the transformer yet, or measured the DC voltage at console pad 17? I'm getting ready to order parts for this, and I'd like to know if your units are really running at the stated voltage before I order a power supply.
Quote from: R.G. on June 05, 2011, 11:42:17 AM
On the power supply, I've been thinking about that. For a clone, a DC-output wall plug would be a whole lot better. Not knowing how much current it eats until/unless it gets measured on a real or clone, it's hard to design a charge pump to work right. If the current's high, it may be hard to get a charge pump to get to 35V.
I like the idea of running it from a 24Vdc nominal output wall wart. These are cheap and easy to find, and usually have an output that is larger than the stated. I just bought a couple for another project. They put out 31.1V unloaded. The other option is to use a 15-18V AC output wall wart and use diodes and caps to double it to over 35V. Lots of options, not much real information. Mouser stocks 48Vdc output wall warts. That should be OK for the raw power. There's a regulator on the PCB anyway. Just have to make sure it doesn't burn out with 48Vdc in.
Given that the circuit is already laid out for AC power, could we just use a transformer like in the original units? Or would mounting that in the enclosure cause too much hum? Also, what AC voltage would rectify to +36v DC using the existing power scheme?
http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-LITEON-2100mA-ADAPTER-KODAK/dp/B0050GD7DQ/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1307694711&sr=8-16 (http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-LITEON-2100mA-ADAPTER-KODAK/dp/B0050GD7DQ/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1307694711&sr=8-16)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D7QMnONHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
This one's cheaper, but I'd have to replace the plug.
http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Scooter-Battery-Charger-Adapter/dp/B004DH15OQ/ref=sr_1_22?ie=UTF8&qid=1307695736&sr=8-22 (http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Scooter-Battery-Charger-Adapter/dp/B004DH15OQ/ref=sr_1_22?ie=UTF8&qid=1307695736&sr=8-22)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31cRM29OhDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/ludwig-phase-ii-top-pcb.jpg)
Funny, I never noticed until tonight that the note in this picture reveals the model of one of the transistors. Whether TIP29 is the original or the replacement I'm not sure. Does this tell you anything, R.G.?
Datasheet:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/fairchild/TIP29.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/fairchild/TIP29.pdf)
And I promise that's the last post for tonight!
I will measure the AC and DC voltages tonight. One thing that strikes me as peculiar is that one drawing says +36, and the other +35. But, then again, there are two "Lo Z" pads as well, so I'm assuming it's a typo.
Personally, I'm not quite sure what the Hi Z does yet, but I would retain it, just in case. I run my rig in stereo, so yes, I would keep the stereo. I often run two different signals left/right.
Master volume? DUDE... you're reading my mind. I was messing with it last night, and I was thinking how nice a master volume would be. But, I think that MV and TB would be best left as DIY mods that one could do themselves. There are not complex mods. We could just publish the procedure, and let them decide.
As for the TIP29, loks like a repair note to me.
Quote from: Keppy on June 10, 2011, 04:14:08 AM
Jimi and Dino, have either of you measured the AC voltage off the transformer yet, or measured the DC voltage at console pad 17? I'm getting ready to order parts for this, and I'd like to know if your units are really running at the stated voltage before I order a power supply.
Given that the circuit is already laid out for AC power, could we just use a transformer like in the original units? Or would mounting that in the enclosure cause too much hum?
I recommend putting at least the AC transformer outside the box. This is kind of a moot point, as our political heros have effectively made simple wall transformers illegal. Only switching wall warts are still being made. But it makes good sense to get the AC power outside the box.
QuoteAlso, what AC voltage would rectify to +36v DC using the existing power scheme?
It has to rectify to more than 36V. The 36V is the zener voltage for the regulator. To be an effective regulator, the raw DC power has to be from a few to several volts higher than that; moreover, the raw DC when it sags down on ripple in the incoming filter has to never get below maybe 38-40V. I can't figure out enough from the circuit to peg the voltage exactly, but I suspect that the peak DC voltage after the rectifiers is in the range of 42-50V. Knowing the transformer volts would clean up a lot of this.
Just looking at the power supplies you show and the circuits, you're going a lot of overkill on power supply current with either one of those. This thing doesn't use much current. Once I know the transformer output voltages, I can do a better job of suggesting a power supply.
Quote from: Keppy on June 10, 2011, 05:09:43 AM
Funny, I never noticed until tonight that the note in this picture reveals the model of one of the transistors. Whether TIP29 is the original or the replacement I'm not sure. Does this tell you anything, R.G.?
I think it's a repair note too. It also tells me that my suspicions about the nature of the regulator are right - it's under a fair amount of stress if it's been replaced. Overall, the power section of this thing looks amateurish, or done for lowest cost. Anything that results in a quiet 35V where the emitter of Q6 is will work OK. I've been holding off suggesting anything more elaborate or different until we find out if the circuits work as shown. The whole console board is fairly simple to replace with modern circuitry, perhaps as little as one CD4049 and one dual opamp.
All of this can be done more compactly and elegantly now, with the advantage of nearly half a century of advances in electronics under our belts. I just populated the boards for my IC version of the modulated filters yesterday. They get tested in the next few days as I have time. It's on a board that's roughly 2x3" and fits an existing rocker pedal.
Quote from: digi2t on June 10, 2011, 06:29:19 AM
I will measure the AC and DC voltages tonight. One thing that strikes me as peculiar is that one drawing says +36, and the other +35. But, then again, there are two "Lo Z" pads as well, so I'm assuming it's a typo.
It's not. The circuit is a DC emitter follower to regulate the incoming DC. They went cheap on the main filter cap. That is C11, and it's only 100uF. That means a fairly large ripple voltage from the rectification. So they used a 36V zener as a reference voltage tied to the base of an NPN, Q6. That makes the emitter of the NPN about 0.7V lower, and they called that "35V". There is some tolerance on the zener voltage as well, so rounding to the nearest volt makes sense there for service literature.
Quote
Personally, I'm not quite sure what the Hi Z does yet
The Hi-Z and Lo-Z inputs are just that - separate amplifiers with different input impedances. They're all mixed right into the same signal path again after the input amplifiers. I haven't messed with how much gain, speed, response, etc. yet. With the advantage of that half-century I was talking about, the input amplifiers become fairly quaint, as well. The Hi-Z isn't that high, but it's where you'd put a guitar to avoid treble loss. Lo-Z was probably meant for putting a microphone into this, although I can't imagine wanting to do that musically.
QuoteBut, I think that MV and TB would be best left as DIY mods that one could do themselves. There are not complex mods. We could just publish the procedure, and let them decide.
There's lots of cleanup and modification that would better suit modern use, once it's clear that the filters and modulation as shown work.
Quote from: Keppy on June 10, 2011, 03:02:57 AM
Does the Bypass Balance pot set the volume of the buffered signal when the effect is bypassed, or am I reading the wiring diagram wrong? Also, is it worth building the stereo out since that's just buffered dry signal?
Here's what I'm thinking of doing:
-Replace Bypass Balance pot with a Master Volume pot
-Leave out stereo jack/switch
-Leave out Lo Z input
-True bypass
I wanted to run these ideas by you guys before making any changes to the design, since I'm the guinea pig and all. Jimi and Dino, do you think these changes will affect the character of the unit as you know it? Would you miss the stereo out or the Lo Z input if they were gone? Do you wish it had a master volume?
.
bypass balance is so you can adjust the dry output with the signal bypassed by the unit; the phase II seems to want to run a little below unity gain.
the stereo out is a nice feature, as you can drive two amps or mixer channels with it, and the effect is only in the main output. this can be handy, and makes it sound HUMONGOUS.
a master volume isn't gonna be useful unless it has some gain or at least make up gain, imo.
true bypass may be nice, but it may be a bit of a hassle...i don't know enough to speculate.
the lo z in is handy to have, as you can drive a stereo signal into the unit, and use the lo z balance knob to make sure both inputs are driving the unit equally.
that said, i think a higher impedance on the input would help quite a bit. i ran it last nite last in line after my usual pedalboard, and it was self-oscillating...didn't do that at home by itself, it was almost the classic fuzzface/crybaby kind of runaway.
the fuzz could be improved with an extra stage just for volume...when mine had broken, it had THE BEST FUZZ SOUND EVER....liquid and insane...as soon as i replaced the formant trimpot, the fuzz got weak again. it's almost like just below unity when engaged. i'm gonna play with it some and try to dial it in a little better.
onwards and upwards. ;)
Quote from: Keppy on June 10, 2011, 04:14:08 AM
Jimi and Dino, have either of you measured the AC voltage off the transformer yet, or measured the DC voltage at console pad 17? I'm getting ready to order parts for this, and I'd like to know if your units are really running at the stated voltage before I order a power supply.
Quote from: R.G. on June 05, 2011, 11:42:17 AM
On the power supply, I've been thinking about that. For a clone, a DC-output wall plug would be a whole lot better. Not knowing how much current it eats until/unless it gets measured on a real or clone, it's hard to design a charge pump to work right. If the current's high, it may be hard to get a charge pump to get to 35V.
I like the idea of running it from a 24Vdc nominal output wall wart. These are cheap and easy to find, and usually have an output that is larger than the stated. I just bought a couple for another project. They put out 31.1V unloaded. The other option is to use a 15-18V AC output wall wart and use diodes and caps to double it to over 35V. Lots of options, not much real information. Mouser stocks 48Vdc output wall warts. That should be OK for the raw power. There's a regulator on the PCB anyway. Just have to make sure it doesn't burn out with 48Vdc in.
Given that the circuit is already laid out for AC power, could we just use a transformer like in the original units? Or would mounting that in the enclosure cause too much hum? Also, what AC voltage would rectify to +36v DC using the existing power scheme?
this thing REALLY needs better power supply filtering, it has quite a ripple to it. that's why i ran it last in line with my pedalboard, so the inherent hum wouldn't get too much amplification. it sounded absolutely sick with a fuzzface, boss super overdrive, superhardon clone and tc nova delay going into it...coolest sound ever. almost uncontrollable, but so psychedelic it could make one tumescent like audio viagra.
since my girl will be away for a few days, i'll try and get voltage readings etc off the fall board...i am paranoid about opening the top again and anything else breaking in the process. i may be a p**sy, sorry, but i wanna be careful...trying to keep it as stock as possible!!
but...that said...for the clones, i think 3pdt switches with led's for the fall board are a given. will just be so much easier.
Quote from: digi2t on June 10, 2011, 06:29:19 AM
I will measure the AC and DC voltages tonight. One thing that strikes me as peculiar is that one drawing says +36, and the other +35. But, then again, there are two "Lo Z" pads as well, so I'm assuming it's a typo.
Personally, I'm not quite sure what the Hi Z does yet, but I would retain it, just in case. I run my rig in stereo, so yes, I would keep the stereo. I often run two different signals left/right.
Master volume? DUDE... you're reading my mind. I was messing with it last night, and I was thinking how nice a master volume would be. But, I think that MV and TB would be best left as DIY mods that one could do themselves. There are not complex mods. We could just publish the procedure, and let them decide.
As for the TIP29, loks like a repair note to me.
seems there's a lot of typos on the schem as ya get inside it some. and i don't even know that much about this stuff!! some of the things in the unit aren't there, some of the things on the layout don't match the schem...
drummers. <shakes head> should stick to beating on stuff for a living, not designing electronics.
but ya know...in the long run...they got (for the time) a lot of it right!!
just curious, but why the hell does this thing HAVE to be run at 35 volts?
couldn't the same circuit be made to run off a regular wall wart?
could the transformer be replaced with a torroid?
is it worth replacing the main filter cap r.g. mentioned with a much larger cap to get less ripple?
these and other questions will be answered on the next installment of the "upped on another forum" thread...
;)
Hey Keppy,
Could you list all the points where you want me to take readings from? Then I could print it, and have it handy when I have at it. I know Jimi's a bit ansy about opening his top because his is in rough shape compared to mine, so I don't mind taking it on. Just make a list of points (resistance or voltage), and I'll fill in the blanks. Relax Jimi, I'll get this one bro.
As for the master volume, I use a clean stereo preamp in some loops to boost the signal on some of my effects to unity, since I have others that are louder. My GR50 synth is a good example. I need to boost it to compete with my GNX3, then I use it's volume to bring it down a touch to unity. The master volume would be useful for me, but maybe not for others. In any case, not really a blip on my radar, since I could mod it myself later. As R.G. implied, we need to validate this sucker before we even start thinking about the esoteric stuff.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 10, 2011, 10:32:52 AM
the fuzz could be improved with an extra stage just for volume...when mine had broken, it had THE BEST FUZZ SOUND EVER....liquid and insane...as soon as i replaced the formant trimpot, the fuzz got weak again. it's almost like just below unity when engaged. i'm gonna play with it some and try to dial it in a little better.
I find the fuzz weak when the formant is engaged as well, but it depends when you set the treadle. Somewhere in the middle of my pedal range, it sounds really good. Toe down, really thin, heel down, dark and buzzy. Then again, I'm still trying to understand why the Fuzz Mix slider reacts so differently when in Fuzz, or Fuzz Voice.
Maybe just a trimpot to adjust the bias of the fuzz circuit, but I'm not gifted enough to understand how the fuzz circuit really works, or if a trimpot will actual help (or do) anything here. Give to Caesar what rightfully belongs to Caesar... your call R.G. :icon_wink: Again, this could be a post build mod.
QuoteThe Hi-Z and Lo-Z inputs are just that - separate amplifiers with different input impedances. They're all mixed right into the same signal path again after the input amplifiers. I haven't messed with how much gain, speed, response, etc. yet. With the advantage of that half-century I was talking about, the input amplifiers become fairly quaint, as well. The Hi-Z isn't that high, but it's where you'd put a guitar to avoid treble loss. Lo-Z was probably meant for putting a microphone into this, although I can't imagine wanting to do that musically.
I kind of had a handle on the principles of Hi/Lo Z, it's just that with my present setup, I wasn't getting any appreciative difference insofar as the sound of my unit was concerned. BUT.... a microphone into this thing? Hmmm, sounds just like the kind of demented, twisted, bizarre thing that I would try.
Leave the Z inputs as is Kep :icon_twisted: Mmmmmmmuuuuuaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhaaaaahhhhhhaaaaaaahhhhhhhaaaaaa!
heh heh...how else ya gonna put DRUMS thru it?? lol!!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 10, 2011, 12:04:12 PM
heh heh...how else ya gonna put DRUMS thru it?? lol!!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
HEY.... take a mic off the bass drum, and run it in, at the same time as the guitar! Then run the PII into a stereo delay.
:icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
KEPPY.... KEEP THE Z INPUTS!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: digi2t on June 10, 2011, 12:08:45 PM
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 10, 2011, 12:04:12 PM
heh heh...how else ya gonna put DRUMS thru it?? lol!!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
HEY.... take a mic off the bass drum, and run it in, at the same time as the guitar! Then run the PII into a stereo delay.
:icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
KEPPY.... KEEP THE Z INPUTS!!!!!!!!!!
indeed!!! feed the stereo output into the other input....heh heh...
I hear you guys! I'll keep it as is. Sounds like the things I thought of leaving out would be missed, and a passive master volume wouldn't do much good if it's already below unity gain.
I'll just have to mod it AFTER I build it! ;D
yah, well maybe WE can get it RIGHT....LOL!!! :icon_eek: :icon_biggrin: :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: R.G. on June 10, 2011, 08:02:01 AM
It has to rectify to more than 36V. The 36V is the zener voltage for the regulator. To be an effective regulator, the raw DC power has to be from a few to several volts higher than that; moreover, the raw DC when it sags down on ripple in the incoming filter has to never get below maybe 38-40V. I can't figure out enough from the circuit to peg the voltage exactly, but I suspect that the peak DC voltage after the rectifiers is in the range of 42-50V. Knowing the transformer volts would clean up a lot of this.
Hmmm...I have an unregulated 15v supply that puts out 21-22v. Doubling that might be JUST high enough to drive the Zener without burning anything out. Maybe I'll try that first.
Quote
Just looking at the power supplies you show and the circuits, you're going a lot of overkill on power supply current with either one of those. This thing doesn't use much current. Once I know the transformer output voltages, I can do a better job of suggesting a power supply.
I know. Those are just the only 36v DC supplies I could find.
Quote from: digi2t on June 10, 2011, 11:51:53 AM
Could you list all the points where you want me to take readings from?
Console board pads 2 & 3 for the AC input, pad 17 for DC output from the regulator. While you're at it, it might be worthwhile to take readings at all the test points noted on the layout. I say MIGHT because I haven't looked thoroughly enough to know if those points are carrying any DC bias or would have any bearing on the settings of the trimpots. Probably just reading the power supply is fine for now. Of course, if I have to debug much I might be pestering you for all the transistor voltages later :icon_eek:
Thanks for the help guys!
QuoteOf course, if I have to debug much I might be pestering you for all the transistor voltages later :icon_eek:
Don't worry Kep, whatever you need man. If tranny voltages is what it takes, just say the word. Nobody ever gained anything without a little sacrifice. When we all embarked on this mission, it wasn't to go half way.
Like Jimi said, it will live again. I'll post your requested readings later tonight.
Cheers!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 10, 2011, 12:10:32 PM
Quote from: digi2t on June 10, 2011, 12:08:45 PM
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 10, 2011, 12:04:12 PM
heh heh...how else ya gonna put DRUMS thru it?? lol!!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
HEY.... take a mic off the bass drum, and run it in, at the same time as the guitar! Then run the PII into a stereo delay.
:icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
KEPPY.... KEEP THE Z INPUTS!!!!!!!!!!
indeed!!! feed the stereo output into the other input....heh heh...
OMG.... I could feed it into my Stereo Panneur! YIKES!!!! So many possibilities, so little time!
Quote from: digi2t on June 10, 2011, 06:13:14 PM
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 10, 2011, 12:10:32 PM
Quote from: digi2t on June 10, 2011, 12:08:45 PM
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 10, 2011, 12:04:12 PM
heh heh...how else ya gonna put DRUMS thru it?? lol!!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
HEY.... take a mic off the bass drum, and run it in, at the same time as the guitar! Then run the PII into a stereo delay.
:icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
KEPPY.... KEEP THE Z INPUTS!!!!!!!!!!
breathe, dino...breathe~! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
indeed!!! feed the stereo output into the other input....heh heh...
OMG.... I could feed it into my Stereo Panneur! YIKES!!!! So many possibilities, so little time!
Some of the meat of the discussion gets lost 21 pages deep.
I posted a couple of things here: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92125.0 under " Ludwig Phase II Clone Tech Notes"
I noted a couple of wall adapters from Mouser that work for a power supply in a doubler arrangement.
Also, can you measure the actual operating voltage on C11?
Dino, it looks like we also need values for the Bypass Balance and Lo Z Balance pots.
sorry, lost my mind there for a few...
i'm getting ready to crack it open tonite to play with the trimmers, it's set just a wee bit too hot right now and i wanna dial in the yoyoyoy thing a little better...
i'll try and get voltage readings etc while i'm in there and post 'em, and will see about getting the values of the pots...but i think dino already posted that in here a couple pages back.
R.G., got a link to the Fuzz switch candidate you found?
Hi Kep,
OK, first off the pots. Bypass balance is a 10K, and the Z pot is 5K.
For the voltages, the unit settings were as follows;
Footswitches;
BYPASS OFF (meaning effect on)
All other switches OFF
Treadle-Toe down
Console;
All sliders set to 0 (minimum)
FUZZ switch-FUZZ/VOICE
SELECT switch-BOTH
SLOW START
All Formant switches - OFF
Voltages;
Console pad 2 to GND = 37.0 vac
Console pad 3 to GND = 37.0 vac
Console pad 2 to 3 = 74.3 vac
Console pad 17 to GND = 33.45 vdc (took about 1 minute to stabilize)
Console capacitor C11 to GND = 46.0 vdc
Motherboard pad 5 to GND = 33.45 vdc (took about 1 minute to stabilize)
Motherboard Test Points (all to GND pad 14);
TP1 - 0.624 vdc
TP2 - Toe down = 1.01 vdc Heel down = 13.85 vdc
TP3 - 3.807 vdc
TP4 - 2.292 vdc
TP5 - 3.74 vdc
TP6 - 3.81 vdc
TP7 - 3.80 vdc
TP8 - 9.26 vdc
TP9 - 18.54 vdc
Anything else you need?
fall board voltages, all dc...black probe to ground, effect not bypassed, but stereo, fuzz, and animation footswitches off
q1
e 0
b .63
c 2.99
q2
e 3.65
b 4.18
c 10.25
q3
e 0
b .60
c 7.69
q4
e 2.77
b 3.07
c 10.26
q5
e 3.31
b 2.63
c .20
q6
e 0
b .60
c .20
q7
e 3.57
b 4.23
c 8.77
q8
e 3.56
b 4.21
c 11.21
q9
e 19.77
b 19.12
c 11.21
q10
e 10.58
b 11.21
c 18.70
q11
e 19.35
b 18.70
c 15.80
q12
e 3.58
b 4.21
c 15.80
q13
e 3.58
b 4.22
c 14.88
q14
e 3.55
b 4.15
c 17.35
q15
e 3.55
b 4.21
c 11.40
q16
e 19.62
b 18.96
c 11.40
q17
e 10.77
b 11.41
c 18.88
q18
e 19.53
b 18.88
c 15.62
q19
e 3.59
b 4.21
c 15.62
q20
e 3.59
b 4.18
c 17.60
q21
e 3.31
b 3.83
c 10.26
dino...thanks for doing the top board bro...i know i'm lame, but as really noided about busting something, and lost my notebook with all the wiring and crap i did...
hope this helps some...do i need to read both sides of the electrolytics etc too?
say the word,,,
peace!!!
Thanks for the info guys!
Oh, and what's the name of the third animation slider? I can't quite see it clearly in any of the photos. Is it "INTENS. FUZZ RPT"?
de nada!!!! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
Quote from: Keppy on June 10, 2011, 11:10:09 PM
Oh, and what's the name of the third animation slider? I can't quite see it clearly in any of the photos. Is it "INTENS. FUZZ RPT"?
yep!!
it's a percussion repeat control, and the rate controls it if the select switch is in the middle or down position.
it ticks like a time bomb, but it's supposed to do that. actually sounds quite cool, til ya stop playing. :D
I'm bummed...I can't find any smooth aluminum knobs like in the photos!
Yup, the ticking is cool. It sounds like the beginning of a Pink Floyd song, but the name of it escapes me right now. At first I thought my unit was broken :icon_lol:
Which knobs are you talking about Kep? The sliders? They're plastic/chrome. Check this out;
http://cgi.ebay.ca/U42030-CHROME-PLASTIC-FL-A-C-SLIDER-CONTROL-KNOB-AMBR-/150350944812?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23019d5a2c (http://cgi.ebay.ca/U42030-CHROME-PLASTIC-FL-A-C-SLIDER-CONTROL-KNOB-AMBR-/150350944812?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23019d5a2c)
They look pretty cool.
Or this;
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/Item/151700/UNMARKED%20-%20SILVER%20KNOB%20-%206-350-1/ (http://www.electronicsurplus.com/Item/151700/UNMARKED%20-%20SILVER%20KNOB%20-%206-350-1/)
Not oval, I know, but retro nonetheless.
For my handle, I'm missing one side knob, so I ordered these;
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Aluminium-knob-5608-Jackson-Bros-Tap-M3-new-/390066730323?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5ad1c9f553 (http://cgi.ebay.ca/Aluminium-knob-5608-Jackson-Bros-Tap-M3-new-/390066730323?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5ad1c9f553)
I'll just re-tap them to 10-32, and get some small bushings to fit. I'll use a third one for the fall plate lock.
Then the only thing that will be left will be the mushroom caps, and the handle trim.
Quote from: Keppy on June 11, 2011, 02:22:05 AM
I'm bummed...I can't find any smooth aluminum knobs like in the photos!
they're just plastic bro...i'll yank one off and measure it for ya and take a couple pics later if ya want. i'd just go for regular rotary pots if i was building a work/soundalike, the sliders are a pia!!
found this looking for subs for that regulator (q6) on the control board...i have ZERO understanding of this stuff, so forgive me if it's a dead end...
http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/TIP110-D.PDF
Plastic, huh? From the photos I thought they were aluminum, like a Tele knob with no knurling. I'm trying to evoke the original in my build, visually speaking. Definitely using rotary pots, though. Not giving up the space or effort to do sliders.
Most definately going with regular pots. 16mm in fact. I'm truely not interested in the esoterics here, only the functionality. It should work/sound the same, doesn't need to look the part. Besides, as I mentioned earlier, pedalboard real estate is at a premium for me.
just a bump to keep this current with the other thread. i believe both of these threads need to be kept current for future spelunkation by internet audio pioneers and their children's children....lol
here's a demo, guys...enjoy...
Nice video, Jimi!
Question though: Dino said in his that the formant trajectory switches don't combine. Rather, parallel defeats counter, which defeats vowel. In other words, if you activate more than one switch, only the activated switch farthest to the left will work. For example, having all three switches on should sound the same as just having the parallel switch on. As far as I can tell, the wiring agrees with this. Is this not the case with your unit?
Gee Jimi, sounds just like mine. Maybe a touch higher frequency on the "yo" (trimmer adjustment), but your camera definately has better sound. Sounds about identical to mine. EXCELLENT!!!!! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
My switches are in series. The wiring is traced, as per R.G. update.
on mine, all three formant switches are interactive. it sounds different, as in the video, depending on which combination of the switches is active!! the vowel switch seems to do the formants, the counter switch seems to morph between them, and the parallel switch appears to put the preceeding two in parallel where both work at once.
i could be wrong as to HOW they work...but i know for sure all three are interactive!
glad ya liked the video, dino...like i said, it's close to yours, but on my puter, yours sounds a little brighter than mine. and i have it tweaked so it's pretty hot...you can ALMOST get it to self-oscillate!! ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 15, 2011, 09:57:51 AM
on mine, all three formant switches are interactive. it sounds different, as in the video, depending on which combination of the switches is active!! the vowel switch seems to do the formants, the counter switch seems to morph between them, and the parallel switch appears to put the preceeding two in parallel where both work at once.
i could be wrong as to HOW they work...but i know for sure all three are interactive!
Cool. Could you compare yours to R.G.'s wiring diagram to see if it's the same?
well, it's the same as the schematic, i know that much...i'll try to look at it tonite. if ya watch the video i made, you can hear that different combos of the switches definitely sound different...which would make sense, really, especially if in series...they seem to be additive! ;)
i took a peek, it looks good to me, guys...but i'm not so good at really telling what's what...still an egg, ya know? ;)
here's some pic deets of the switches,lamps, etc...
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/deet5.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/deet4.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/deet5-1.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/deet3.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/deet2.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/deet1.jpg)
Those triggered me to take of my glasses and clean them... ::) ;)
sorry arph, best i could do with this crappy phone!! :icon_redface: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_eek: :icon_mrgreen:
I've been enjoying this whole thread for some time--great stuff guys! Long live kludgy retro F/X!
RE: Those funky switches-- a very common types in old tube-era organs, and although I've disassembled a few (for the transformers, mostly), it's less than ten. I've thrown away dozens (or hundreds) of those.
So if you need replacements, they may be as close as Craigslist... One organ could supply enough for all the Ludwig Phase II's that still exist. :)
Here's a few on one board I didn't throw away. They don't look as robust as yours, but I've seen others as well:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-62ClU_yfjSY/Tf9MvsdZqeI/AAAAAAAAAzc/SQEg1hRsaKg/s800/_DSC3660.jpg)
used this thing live yesterday for the first time...omg, this thing is in-sane!!!!
^ Nice!
I'm making progress, but nothing to report yet. Stay tuned...
as soon as i kicked it on when i was setting up, the band was like...how the f**k are you doing the talkbox without your mic hooked up yet?
;)
i used it on something...i forget what...but suddenly i remembered what it was like to have acid flowing between my chromosomes..it really sounded like an analog synth with the filters being swept...i didn't have the formant filter intensity cranked, so i was going in and out of phase with my foot...it was insane...sometimes it seemed like it was behind me, sometimes in front, and sometimes INSIDE me.
i had to fight the modulation to keep it in the sweet spot, which was a blast...even the folks in the audience were freaking out, looking around them...lol. dude, it is SICK!!!
if ya dial in the trimmers right, you can get most of the vowels with the sweep of the wah pedal...from yoy to yay to woo to wah...i can't wait til ya get this thing built so you can ...ummm... EXPERIENCE it... i think i've played most of the pedals out there by this point, and there's nothing like it...so organic...so psychedelic..
but one thing ya wanna watch is what's before it in the chain...i found i could overload it really easy and get some horrible crackly distortion noise. so i'm gonna move it in my pedal chain after the fuzz/od/distortion, but before the boost/modulations/delay. that should do the trick.
it didn't like the super hard on clone i use for solo boosts at all...but it LOVES the fuzz face...can't wait to try it with the ugly face in front of it!!
;)
i don't think i've been this excited since my first...well...use your imagination for "organic" experiences...lol
:thu: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
:icon_mrgreen:
Hey jimi,
Quotebut one thing ya wanna watch is what's before it in the chain...i found i could overload it really easy and get some horrible crackly distortion noise. so i'm gonna move it in my pedal chain after the fuzz/od/distortion, but before the boost/modulations/delay. that should do the trick.
Maybe an input volume pot, directly after the hot input when you come out of bypass? That way you can tame the input signal when you kick it on. I know you have the input balance to play with, but at that point, you're already running through the effect, so for a hot signal I suppose it becomes a moot point. A primary input volume should (maybe) allow you to put it anywhere in the signal chain, but you'll still have to judge what is running at what volume when you bypass. A bit of a balancing act, but then you can experiment with feeding it fuzz/od/etc. signals, without overloading it.
If you have time, could you take the resistance readings off your trimmer? I'd like to compare them to mine, and see what my puppy will do.
Cheers bro,
Dino
i can do that a little later on bro, i have to pick my kid up around 1 then go grocery shopping (oh, joy)...and am in the middle of the first set of sanding after the first layer of tung oil on the doubleneck i'm building.
but later on i'll pop her open and read the resistances i have set on the trimmers. i just set them by ear. tried using the ones you'd posted earlier, but on mine it wasn't quite right probably because of parts drifting.
so please bear with me!
thanks for the call yesterday, was great hangin' out with ya yesterday, and i hope we can get together soon with ludvig von und too!!
listened to your music yesterday, spammed it on facebook....asian icemen rule!
peace!
jimi
hi guys,
dino asked me to take resistance readings off the trim pots and wah pot in my phase II...they may or may not be useful, but hey, in for a dollar, in for a dime.
all readings taken from the back side of the pot (not the thumbwheel side), 3-2-1, left to right.
all readings from the BACK (non
thumbwheel) side of the pot, 3, 2
(wiper), 1, left to right
r31 (25k)
3-2 = 4.7k
2-1 = no reading
r77 = 30k
3-2 = 13.8k
2-1 = 19.9k
r41 = 500r
3-2 = 420r
2-1 = no reading
r62 = 500r
3-2 = 175.9r
2-1 = no reading
r55 = 50k
3-2 = 15.9k
2-1 = 32.6k
r29 = 150r
3-2 = 106r
2-1 = no reading
r65 = 25k
set to 24.3k
treadle pot = 5k
toe down
3-2 = 4.1k
2-1 = 4.3k
heel down
3-2 = 4.5
2-1 = no reading
hey keppy....any luck yet? have ya had a chance to start?
r.g......how's your project coming...any news on the updating front?
happy 4th to all my american compatriots!
peace
jimi
The board's populated, and I'm working on the enclosure. There are so many switches, knobs & jacks that putting it together outside the box seems like a wiring nightmare, so I'm afraid I have to do the exterior stuff in order to progress. I'm working on it though! No, really I am! Look:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/file.jpg)
I'll let you guys know when it's working/stuck/doomed to failure.
Thanks for posting the readings. Good fodder for the first prototype. Keppy did a good job on the board. He's right about the wiring - it's really, really involved for this one. The over-fifty-wires thing was one of the issues that stopped me the first time I plunged into this.
The updated version does make vowels. I'm still tinkering with the "path" of the filters to get the best selection of vowels with the rocker. Also making it revert to a single wah when a switch is flipped.
awesome job, keppy!!
listen....do ya hear it? i can already!! :icon_biggrin:
yah, the 50 wires thing has me pretty scared, too... :icon_eek:
rg, it's gonna have a normal wah, too? why not just stick with the formants, and use a crybaby or whatever for the wah outboard? or is it such a simple mod it's NOT worth not doing?
i can't wait to build one of these puppys...i've been taking the phase II out to gigs/rehearsals, but i'd rather pack a clone...like a weekend ago, when it suddenly started raining.
everything got wet but my ludwig!! :D
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 03, 2011, 09:19:12 AM
rg, it's gonna have a normal wah, too? why not just stick with the formants, and use a crybaby or whatever for the wah outboard? or is it such a simple mod it's NOT worth not doing?
It's more like with all the hardware already there, it would be embarrassing to me to not do it. There may be reasons to leave it out of the end result, but that should be the result of thought and decision, not because I couldn't figure out how or was in too big a hurry to do it.
I should mention that this is not something to wait for. It may take a long time to get to a complete result, if ever. My day job has some things that are going to keep me busy in the next little bit. I do this stuff for fun when the work day is over.
gotcha , r.g.
no rush, no worries sir!! :icon_biggrin:
just eager to see it live again. tcob first, always!
hope ya'll have a great 4th, bro, rock on!! :icon_mrgreen:
Keppy.... OMFG!!..... it's absolutely beautiful. Hold on, I've got to wipe the tears from my eyes :icon_lol:
R.G., that would be sooo righteous to have it switch between wah or vowels. I mean, really kill two birds with one stone. That idea never crossed my mind.
BUT.... if this works out, and Colorsound Vocalizer works out as well, then I might combine the two into one enclosure, with a switch to flip between them. Since I already have 3 dedicated wah's, I'll just amalgamate these two into a sort of "vowel-erizer".
2 pots for the Vocalizer, and one for the Phase II =
(http://www.audiomaintenance.com/acatalog/OM-01-006_3d_200.jpg)
Yes... I am a twisted shit :icon_twisted:
Happy (late) Canada day to all the Canucks, and a Happy 4th of July to all our American cousins. Hand us another beer, will ya?
dude...DUDE!! :icon_mrgreen:
i like the way your mind works!! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
WOW, market must be picking up.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/FUZZ-Ludwig-Phase-II-Synthesizer-Vintage-/260814814755?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item3cb9c63e23 (http://cgi.ebay.ca/FUZZ-Ludwig-Phase-II-Synthesizer-Vintage-/260814814755?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item3cb9c63e23)
Wonder how high this puppy will go?
330 for shipping? lol...let's see...the counter switch light doesn't work, the stereo footswitch indicator doesn't work, it's missing the three knobs and the handle, but looks clean.
i bet he gets about 2 grande for it!!!
i'm adding it to my watch list just for sheetz and giggles!!
;)
weird...added it to my watch list, shipping dropped to 70 bucks!
depending on how high it gets, i may try and snipe it in the last few seconds..i got plastic, and ain't afraid to lose it!! :D
dudes, check this out...
sorry to hijack the thread, but...this sounds really close to the yoyoy of the ludwig!
here's the schem...
http://tinydazzler.blogspot.com/2010/09/pedal-power.html
didn't know if you'd seen this yet, but i think i'm gonna try one..
Neat! Simple too. Love the BBQ rotisseire motor box use;
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2h3sopz.jpg)
Lowes.... here I come! :icon_mrgreen:
I've seen some of build s before. It's all pretty cool stuff, but I'm most impressed with his socks!
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=86583.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=86583.0)
Quote from: digi2t on July 09, 2011, 09:36:53 PM
Neat! Simple too. Love the BBQ rotisseire motor box use;
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2h3sopz.jpg)
Lowes.... here I come! :icon_mrgreen:
the only part i don't get, is does it need an expression pedal? or does it sweep itself?
looks cool, but for some reason i don't seem to be seeing what he did...the video is just audio!
;)
would sure like to see how he's got the expression part hooked up..looks pretty simple, but i don't quite get how he put it together!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 09, 2011, 11:26:33 PM
the only part i don't get, is does it need an expression pedal? or does it sweep itself?
looks cool, but for some reason i don't seem to be seeing what he did...the video is just audio!
;)
would sure like to see how he's got the expression part hooked up..looks pretty simple, but i don't quite get how he put it together!
I believe the expression pedal is just a platform on a hinge. Then there is a vertically mounted slide pot, and that white bushing has a slot cut in it for the slide pot to fit into. At least that's what I got from what little I can make out.
Here's a closeup.
(http://oi53.tinypic.com/vy2nt2.jpg)
thanks elvis! i think i'll just try and fit it in the cheap ass pyle wah pedal i bought to put the vocalizer in...and buy another cheap ass pyle wah! ;)
where the hell did ya find the pic tho? i couldn't seem to find s*** on that site!! kept crashing firefox on me..
I found it in the forum thread linked by artifus. There's also a pcb layout in there. Let us know how it turns out.
i'll probably vero it, it looks like i could make it pretty small. gotta get a couple bucks together for the chips, but i think i have the rest already!!
could you post the link you're talking about ? is it here, or there somewhere?
thanks!
Quote from: artifus on July 09, 2011, 10:21:44 PM
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=86583.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=86583.0)
At the top of this page. Good luck! I'll be very interested in hearing how it turns out. Wouldn't mind building one myself.
Also, Top Top is still active here. In fact he just posted an hour or so ago.
cool, thanks again elvis...
i gotta gig tomorrow, if i get back early enough i may try and grab the chips so i can breadboard it up...or maybe just build it...looks like it will be fairly easy!!
hey dino....feel like whippin' up a layout bro? :icon_biggrin:
cool! this thing is gonna be fun! ;)
I'm on it brother, just give me a couple of days. :icon_wink:
no worries, dino, i'm in no hurry!! can't wait to build the thing tho, looks like it'll be a gas! should put an lfo on it and mount it in a strat, huh?
;)
I'm in for a build as well, but not in a hurry. I've been on the trail of this pedal since '99...
Hey pinkjimiphoton what is the Pyle wah enclosure like? Is it metal? Does it seem like it will hold up? For $20, they seem hard to beat.
nah, it's plastic, but the jacks are in the front, and i think there should be plenty of room to stash a couple extra pots. and for 20 bux, hard to beat for a cheap wah enclosure!
it's actually not a bad sounding little wah, for a pos. the enclosure, jacks and switch are worth it. it ships with a x kinda dpdt, they only use one side, so it's most likely recyclable.
Thanks for the info! Sounds perfect for "prototypes." Then move it to a crybaby shell if it's going to be a permanent fixture on your pedal board.
yah, that's what i'm thinking. it's pretty sturdy, and dead quiet...may even work out long-term!
I just wonder if a plastic enclosure will present problems insofar as noise/ground sheilding is concerned. But, I have to agree with theundeadelvis, does make a good test bed for the price.
Shouldn`t be too long on the vero, I have the perf layout, and it`s more or less copy paste, and insert the cuts. Might even have it out tonight.
Everyone, have a beautiful day.
Dino :icon_smile:
i think i could shield the whole inside cavity with aluminum tape if i have to...not much in there!! i'm using a couple danelectro mini's on my pedalboard, not seeming to have any radio kinda noise, so i think i can get away with it. we'll see. but if i can't, oh well! ;)
have an awesome day, brother! namaste! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: digi2t on July 09, 2011, 12:28:43 AM
WOW, market must be picking up.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/FUZZ-Ludwig-Phase-II-Synthesizer-Vintage-/260814814755?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item3cb9c63e23 (http://cgi.ebay.ca/FUZZ-Ludwig-Phase-II-Synthesizer-Vintage-/260814814755?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item3cb9c63e23)
Wonder how high this puppy will go?
21 hours left, and it's at 2750$ :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
Guess 1200 bux for mine was CHEAP!!
I figure if we were real a-holes, we could have gotten away with 500$ for a clone :icon_lol:, but that would have just destroyed what little kindred spirit that's left in the universe :icon_wink:.
So who's gonna email the winning bidder with the news... :icon_twisted:
God I love you guys!
holy SHEET, dude...
:icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
and it isn't even 100% complete or working!!!!
key-rist!!
maybe WE HERE at THIS FORUM should build some to pay for aaron's expenses for a while, maybe help recoup peeps build expenses etc?
just a thought, probably not cool...but damn!!
yah, i think peeps should know that they shouldn't buy something like that with no return clause...cuz without guys like us, they can't even get the things repaired!!!
Yo (pardon the pun) bro....
Quick question. With the fuzz on and no formants, do you get a boost of volume when you toggle on a formant? If I have the fuzz on, and I kill all the formant switches, my fuzz volume goes weak. Is yours the same?
If so, I wonder if there's a way to either boost the fuzz volume, or maybe reduce the formants output. It's almost as if any of the formants acts as a boost.
yah bro, the fuzz does get a lot weaker...when ya kick in the mod it makes a huge difference.
when mine broke (the 150r trimmer) the fuzz was the only thing working...and it was KILLER. it appears a lot of the gain from the fuzz is swallowed by the formant part,
i bet rg could figure it out. but it's way above my paygrade! ;)
i just sent a message to that guy on ebay about the phase II...it's up to 2,750 $ american at this point, with about 17 hours to go.
of course i have no intention of BUYING it....don't need to...but i wanna see what his response is.
my message:
Dear hellbilly_03,
curious...do all the lamps work? switches? have you tested the unit? why no returns? what if it has issues? it appears a few of the lamps are NOT working...i hate to snipe in a huge bid on an item that may not be 100% functional. i AM familiar with these, and know how to repair them, but i would want some assurance that the unit is 100% functional other than the lamps. thanks.
- phatj
ain't i a stinker? :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_mrgreen:
You most certainly are brother! But, at the moment, that dude's got 2750 reasons not to give a crap.
13 hours left, I think it'll go over 3 grand. If that's the case, I'm praying that the clone works out, and I'm putting mine on the block. I can get all sorts of great stuff for my studio with 2 or 3 grand. :icon_wink:
Or.... some gear for my new acqusition...
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Goldwing/8207b5e_20.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Goldwing/596067j_20.jpg)
Get your motor runnin', head out on the highway :icon_cool: :icon_cool: :icon_cool:
sweet!!! road trip!!!
;)
it's still hangin at 2750....will be interesting to see where it goes!!
heard from him...
get your waders on...lol
Only the stereo lamp does not light up...Aside from that the unit works 100%
On all high dollar vintage sales the are as is.
This is a qutoe from a 30000 dollar item on ebay right now that was john paul jone's Moog
.Due to nature of vintage instruments,sold as is and no return.
All switches work ...yes I have tested the unit and compared it to my other 2 Ludwig Phase II's
- hellbilly_03
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 12, 2011, 09:51:26 PM
heard from him...
get your waders on...lol
Only the stereo lamp does not light up...Aside from that the unit works 100%
On all high dollar vintage sales the are as is.
This is a qutoe from a 30000 dollar item on ebay right now that was john paul jone's Moog
.Due to nature of vintage instruments,sold as is and no return.
All switches work ...yes I have tested the unit and compared it to my other 2 Ludwig Phase II's
- hellbilly_03
You know who he is (the seller)? I used to deal with him a little and know him by his ID. It's Hank III! The grandson of Hank Williams.
no way!!!! that's cool as hell...!!!!!!!!!
well, good luck to him...if he has two other ones, then that accounts for a couple more of 'em! :icon_mrgreen:
it went for 2,750 + 70 bux shipping. :icon_eek:
i've seen 'em go higher!
OK, we might be getting closer to the hand of God here. Just had another exchange with the guy whose close to the Ludwigs, and he's found the name, and is getting in touch with, the guy who actually brought this sucker to life back in the day.
Hopefully, I'll be able to get the setup info, and we'll be able to REALLY know what this baby is supposed to sound like. Besides, all those trimmers STILL have me perplexed!
just start with them all at the half way point, and tweak until it sounds good...that's what i did.
when i got it back, almost every single trimpot WAS centered, fwiw!!
can't wait for the new info...yeehaw! :icon_mrgreen:
Sorry I'm taking so long guys! I finally finished the enclosure, and I'm ready to wire it up, so the clone should be ready to test in a few days. I'll post a video when it's done.
YES YES YES!!!!! You go Kep!!
Hopefully, I won't drop dead of a heart attack or something before then :icon_mrgreen:
Sidebar; Ordered another wah (straight Crybaby) for the Vocalizer project. Meanwhile, 535Q + Gieger Counter = TOTAL SONIC MAYHEM. Unfreaking real. God, I'm glad I bought that wah.
kick ass keppy~
can't wait to hear it!! i wanna build one really bad!! i know i got an original, but it would be nice to not destroy it gigging with it!
sweet! :icon_mrgreen:
I didn't read the whole thread, but we have one here. If you'd like us to make a video of what the knobs etc do, let me know.
Give us a script and one of my guys will follow it and I'll post it to Vimeo (youtube sucks)
(http://analogman.com/graphics/ludwig.jpg)
hi mike, me and dino both have them as well. if you wanna hop in on the fun, ya may wanna read the thread, you may find either some good info, or places where you can help with the project.
at this point, the first board is pretty much done, and two other originals have been restored...so won't be long before we're making these things, and anyone that wants one won't have to rely on selling their soul to evil bay.
thanks for the offer!! :icon_mrgreen:
Hi Mike,
Welcome to the Ludwig thread. Thanks a bunch for the offer. pinkjimiphoton and myself have one each as well, and we've been providing the necessary info required for this clone project. We've already pretty well figured out the controls, and configurations. Personally (if you're not too squimish about peeking inside), I would really like to know what resistance readings you get from the trimmers inside your unit, both on the main board, and the 2 on the console board. Voltages from the test points (marked T.P. on the diagram) would be choice as well. There seems to be some discrepancy between jimi and my units, possibly because of people having fiddled with them in the past. That, and the reading of the treadle pot in the toe down, and heel down positions. That way Keppy can maybe average out the three sets of readings and have a good starting point to tune the clone prototype.
I've already posted a video, but if you'd like to post one as well, you're more than welcome. I basically give a run down of the unit controls, but if you would like to run through the three formant filters, with and without fuzz, with and without animation, and fuzz/fuzz voice alone, that would be the cats ass. Maybe sweep the treadle through each formant to give us an idea of the range as well. It would really give us more to compare our units to.
As Jimi mentioned, read through the thread, and another titled "Ludwig Phase II Clone Tech Notes", you'll find a lot of info on these babies. Jimi and I have dissected them well enough to give R.G. and Keppy enough fodder for a clone.
Hey Jimi, I think we're about to start a "Brotherhood of the Ludwig" frat club.
Thanks Mike,
Dino
i have a ludwig demo up, too, mike :
and here's dino's :
yah, the fraternity of drummer created guitar effects...lol
seriously mike, if you don't mind opening yours up too and taking some readings, information is power, and it will help folks in the long run. thanks!!
Today I spent several hours getting the LEDs hooked up. :icon_eek: Never thought I'd say that!
Next up, the actual audio circuitry. This should actually be easier, given that I have a diagram, rather that a bunch of different bi/tricolor LEDs from different manufacturers with different brightnesses and wiring schemes. Now if only easier meant faster...
Jimi,
Watched your vid a couple of times, and our treadle pot gear is set different on our units. Mine was like yours, but I jumped the teeth on the pot/rack. Yours seems to be trebly in the middle of the sweep, while I've got mine set to be trebly in the toe down, and sweep down from there. In VOWEL mode, toe down, it's in YOYOYO mode right off the bat, no hunting for it ,fuzz no fuzz. It used to be WOWOWOWOW in Vowel mode toe down, and YOYOYO near the middle, but I readjusted it to YOYOYO. I also have the YOYOYO in the middle of the sweep in COUNTER mode.
It's pretty easy to set the sweep differently on the pot, since you have a few teeth of play either way on the pot. The only drawback is that you have less of the "in and out" feel, of sweeping through the lo/hi/lo range with the treadle. But, I prefer to go directly to certain vowels, and I tend to use the treadle more of a tuner than a wah. Guess we've got a setup note there :icon_wink:
I also get it I can hear that you also dialed in the frequencies a tad higher on the trimmers, because of the high end "wizzing" that comes through in the sweep, or the modulation. I've got mine dialed in a bit throatier, especially in COUNTER mode. That also accentuates the YOYOYO on mine more.
yah, i like to sweep it right up to mosquito frequency...lol.
yours and mine are definitely a little different, but there's another beauty of this box...you can tweak it in till it sounds the way the player wants it!
;)
on mine, the last time i tweaked it in since i made the video, i can get a couple different vowels...the yoy, the wow and the wah...so for me, it's a win-win.
should be interesting what happens with keppy's!!
this is such a hip thing, this project! :icon_mrgreen:
Hmmmm.... maybe the word is out that we're cloning this baby. New auction;
http://cgi.ebay.ca/LUDWIG-PHASE-2-SYNTHESIZER-ORIGINAL-BOX-AND-AD-/150633784268?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item23127923cc (http://cgi.ebay.ca/LUDWIG-PHASE-2-SYNTHESIZER-ORIGINAL-BOX-AND-AD-/150633784268?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item23127923cc)
Seems to be a rush to sell these now. 2 in the same month. Bet this one goes for more than 3K, 'cuz of the box.
Saved in my watch list. No reserve... YIKES!!! I've made a bid, since it needs repair... hehehehe :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
Looks like the foot pedal is not working as well as the animation function. Definitely a fixer-upper!
...And whats with the $300.68 shipping ??? Thats an oddly specific amount isn't it??
we're making the market drop...lol...gotta love it!!!! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
Usually a problem with the calculator. It's adjusted after the sale. I've seen it before. It states that the actual shipping will be calculated after sale.
just put it on my watch list, too....maybe we'll both be able to get the thing, lol...i don't need it, but we could be in kahoots to just...well...
hee hee.... :icon_mrgreen:
you KNOW PEEPS ARE WATCHING THIS THREAD NOW!!! LOL
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 18, 2011, 08:31:52 AM
we're making the market drop...lol...gotta love it!!!! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
ha ha yeah... i just bought a mint one for £4.00.
;) :D
rob.....
say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa????????????????????
:icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
i contacted the seller of this one, he's gonna hopefully send me pics of the promotional stuff/ manual!!
;)
in exchange, i told him how to fix the formant section...i know, i know, but one good deed begets another. :icon_biggrin:
only joking.... ha ha...gotcha!.. :icon_mrgreen:
:icon_mrgreen:
shipping is showing up as 43.39$ american now...it's up to 102.00 with 6 days to go!
i heard back from the guy, the ads that came with it are just ads, no manual....and he says the pics he put up were the best he could do with his cruddy camera.
here's the pron:
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/ludwigad1.gif)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/ludwigad2.gif)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 18, 2011, 10:46:16 AM
shipping is showing up as 43.39$ american now...it's up to 102.00 with 6 days to go!
Doesn't say a thing. It'll probably fly up to 2k in the last second. :(
Crap, I wish we could get a good close up of the second photo of the ad. I'd like to be able to read what the blurbs say about all the controls :icon_sad:
Guy looks a bit like Bobby Kreiger (spelling??) of the Doors though. Then again, so did everybody back then. :icon_wink:
Hi,
I don't think ours sounds as good a Jimi's but we'll see if we can get some info later, we have guys on vacation so a bit backed up.
Here is the flyer scanned in better.
http://www.analogman.com/pics/ludwig1.pdf (http://www.analogman.com/pics/ludwig1.pdf)
http://www.analogman.com/pics/ludwig2.pdf (http://www.analogman.com/pics/ludwig2.pdf)
http://www.analogman.com/pics/ludwig3.pdf (http://www.analogman.com/pics/ludwig3.pdf)
http://www.analogman.com/pics/ludwig4.pdf (http://www.analogman.com/pics/ludwig4.pdf)
awesome mike, thanks so much brother!! every little bit of info gleaned gets us closer to the goal! :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
finally found a slide pot that will work to replace the fuzz repeat slider...not an exact match, but it will fit.
allectronics.com pn# SLP-10k4 10k linear 4 element, 65mm travel and 80mm centers for mounting. soon as i can afford it, i'll order it...got too many things coming in right now!!
lol..
all i need now is to find a match for the knob... :'(
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 18, 2011, 01:24:44 PM
all i need now is to find a match for the knob...
Find the nearest thing you can and replace them all. Only a true nu... er, owner of an original :icon_biggrin: would know.
That'll give you a workable long term set while you continue the quest to find the real thing.
ummmmm....yah!! ;)
:icon_mrgreen:
actually, might ask my bassist to machine me four matching stainless steel knobs.
then i can sell the original ones on ebay, for like, i dunno....200.00 each!! ;p
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 18, 2011, 04:11:49 PM
ummmmm....yah!! ;)
:icon_mrgreen:
actually, might ask my bassist to machine me four matching stainless steel knobs.
then i can sell the original ones on ebay, for like, i dunno....200.00 each!! ;p
post some good pics of the knobs w/ dimensionss. Maybe someone has one that's similar.
real hard to expect that, bro.
easier to ask gary to hook me up probably. good idea tho, i'll try that later! thanks!
Just did about 2/3 of the wiring. Given the huge number of relatively long wires crossing all over the enclosure, making good lead dress pretty much impossible, I can only take solace in the fact that the originals had even MORE wiring. More to come...
I'm really curious to see if the clone has the same fuzz volume drop when the formants are off. That's my biggest pet peeve about this box, kill the formants, and you really lose the fuzz. I can understand that by changing the resistor on the negative rail in a fuzz face, will boost or cut the volume. I wish there was a similar solution here, but I don't have the technical expertise to figure it out. I've been looking at the schematic, in the hopes that something familar jumps out at me, but to no avail.
well, if ya lift the ground on that 150r resistor on the fall board, like when mine broke, and adjust the two top trimmers on the fall board, you can get the fuzz screamin'. but then ya lose the formants completely, and it won't work quite right when ya reconnect the pot.
i think it's just one of them compromises we gotta live with bro.
;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 19, 2011, 11:59:39 PM
well, if ya lift the ground on that 150r resistor on the fall board, like when mine broke, and adjust the two top trimmers on the fall board, you can get the fuzz screamin'. but then ya lose the formants completely, and it won't work quite right when ya reconnect the pot.
i think it's just one of them compromises we gotta live with bro.
;)
How important are the trimmers? Seems like it would be easy to run the ground of that resistor to the switches so that it would be lifted when they're all off. Just get switches with an extra pole, and attach the now-grounded end of the resistor to the "on" position of all three switches with the center lugs connected to ground. Turning on any of the formants would then connect the resistor to ground, but having them all off would lift it.
I finished the wiring and fired the thing up, and it works! :icon_biggrin:
...
...but only in bypass mode. :icon_redface:
What I have now is essentially a functional 1970s style buffer with lots of pretty lights. Guess I'll start debugging tomorrow.
On the plus side, the fact that the buffered signal is clean and not noticeably noisy makes me optimistic that the 48v switching power supply I hooked into the onboard regulator will work well. Stay tuned...
if all you're getting is the buffer. check the trimmers...start with all about half way up. it sounds like it's close, if it's passing signal.
i guess now is the time to start asking for voltage readings at specific points maybe?
i got faith in ya keppy!! ;)
I set all the trimmers as described before I fired it up. They're all at halfway, except for the 100R which I set at about 3/4 (roughly, no measurements). Though, now that I think about it, I might have missed the two on the console board. I'll check when I get home.
My own suspicion is that a transistor is either loose in its socket or physically wrecked due to cramming it into a socket. I plan to check them all just to make sure they're operating. If they are, I'll compare the readings more carefully to those posted earlier from the originals. Like you, I'm pretty sure that since the bypass buffer works I probably haven't screwed anything up TOO badly. No power/ground faults, for example. As to the rest, we'll see.
When you get the chance, it might be useful to go ahead and take the pin voltages on all the transistors.
Yep - it's a PITA, but it's deadly effective on many firing-up flaws.
QuoteSeems like it would be easy to run the ground of that resistor to the switches so that it would be lifted when they're all off. Just get switches with an extra pole, and attach the now-grounded end of the resistor to the "on" position of all three switches with the center lugs connected to ground. Turning on any of the formants would then connect the resistor to ground, but having them all off would lift it.
That would definately be an avenue to explore. You'll see Kep, the fuzz is really anemic on it's own. It would be really cool if a mod was possible to bring the fuzz to unity (or close). It's a wicked, nasty fuzz, that's begging to be heard. You may want to try recreating Jimi's situation, once you've got your debugging done.
Just out of curiousity, did you incorporate that "Rangemastery" looking, offboard terminal strip circuit into the clone?
Quote from: digi2t on July 20, 2011, 10:26:22 PM
You may want to try recreating Jimi's situation, once you've got your debugging done.
Maybe. it would be a gigantic pain to replace those switches (as I suggested) after the fact. I might be able to lift the ground on that resistor, though, just to experiment. We'll see. Perhaps an extremely high value resistor on a switch would accomplish the same thing as lifting the ground.
Quote
Just out of curiousity, did you incorporate that "Rangemastery" looking, offboard terminal strip circuit into the clone?
R.G. included that on the board at my request, as I didn't want to have to deal with it later or make an extra board. I'm halfway through checking the transistors, and already replaced that one, incidentally.
I've zeroed in on the problem, if not the solution. It's the transistor in that add-on amplifier. If I connect an audio probe to the base, I get signal. To the collector or the emitter, nada. Voltage reads full supply on the collector, nothing on the base or emitter. I am currently using a 2N5551 in that spot.
Earlier posts mentioned an undocumented resistor (1Meg, I think) that R.G. speculated might be used to bias that transistor. What can you guys tell me about that? I'll see if I can find the post...
Here's the post.
Quote from: R.G. on June 07, 2011, 11:34:38 PM
From the last round of circuit info, I found that the terminal strip circuit is an amplifier between what would be the output and the "bypass balance" pot. It amplifies the audio output. However, it's a very odd amplifier. The base of that transistor goes to pin 6 on the fall plate, no biasing components, and on the schemos that point is DC-blocked. I wonder if the added 1M resistor that I see on the pics of the fall plate board are to provide some trickle of bias to this.
Tried applying 9v DC from a separate adapter straight to the base to bias it. No luck.
Are you talking about this?;
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/LudwigPhase2004.jpg)
If so, it consists of 47k and 10k resistors, 0.1uF cap, and a 2N4401 tranny. Maybe the 2N5551 isn't cutting the mustard?
I was looking at the schem again, and I'd like to run something by you guys, insofar as the volume output of the unit is concerned. On the fall plate diagram, point 6 (to my untrained eye) seems to be the output of the unit. It goes through the terminal strip/amplifer section, and then out. Resistor R73 sits between point 6, and ground. Wouldn't this resistor directly affect the output level of the unit? If so, could we switch between two different resistances, via the formant switches to A) Bring the volumes to unity, and maybe B) Make the unit a bit louder overall? Or maybe a balance pot arrangement, allowing the user to vary the balance between fuzz, and fuzz/formant output.
I hate to keep harping on this, but it really is a major weak point of the unit. If I could catagorize the volume output level of the unit, in it's various operating modes, it would be as follows (except for bypass, which is adjustable);
Fuzz - weak
Fuzz + Formants - louder
Formants (no Fuzz) - loudest
And, as a sidebar, I've found that vowel pronunciation can vary on the unit depending on the input signal volume as well. At certain points, with the guitar on full volume, in formant "C"/no fuzz mode the unit will produce bow wow wow, but roll off the guitar volume a bit, and it cleans up to yoy yoy yoy. Almost as if the guitar alone were overdriving the unit. Not something I would necessarily want to correct, but I thought I would put it out there as FYI. I find that it does allow some tonal pallate change on the fly, without having to touch the unit. I'm using a cheap Strat copy with it right now, and I don't think the pups are THAT hot, but I imagine my Motherbuckers loaded Ibanez will probably do a wicked job on this sucker. Maybe an input level pot wouldn't be a bad idea?
Jimi, if you've got the time, could you confirm my statements bro? Thanks!
Hey guys, guess what... I just scored a second unit!
This one needs to be repaired. Apparently, it's got no animation, and the footpedal is offline as well. Fuzz and formants are fine. Most probably bad solder, wire connection to the board, or broken solder joint. I'm going to take all the necessary measurements off this one as well, that will give us a better idea (if it hasn't been tampered with) insofar as setup is concerned.
Then... I'm flipping one to help pay for the Goldwing. Oooorrrrrrr, keep it and run them both in stereo.
Sh*t... I'm gonna need a third leg. I'd better start scouring EBay...... :icon_confused:
Quote from: digi2t on July 25, 2011, 02:25:25 PM
keep it and run them both in stereo.
Haha, I can just imagine the conversation - "My rig? Oh, nothing much in the way of pedals, I've just got two Ludwig Phase II's that I run in stereo..." :o
Hello, everybody - I came across Jimi's PII demo on youtube on a whim search. I've owned a PII since 1973, but it went into disrepair when a couple of the wires came loose on the top deck & needless to say with the crummy documentation, wasn't able to resurrect it. I've been waiting 37 years for info to reawaken the beast and after contacting Jimi via facebook, he turned me on to this forum! I just power-read the entire thread and am going to reanimate the box. What an incredible labor of love! I wish I had found this back in May, as I could've supplied pictures, etc. Anyhow, looking forward to resurrecting mine and sharing on this forum! Pls I don't to bother Jimi on facebook, when this is clearly the place to discuss this project!
Mr Bill (Bill Soule)
Whoops! I meant to say "Plus I don't want to bother Jimi on facebook...."
ooooooooooooooooh nooooooooooooooooooooooooo, mister billllllllllllllllllllll!!!
dude, it is no bother whatsoever!! hit me up anytime, my friend.
i wanna see/hear pics and clips asap!! ;)
and if ya get stuck...wellp, you've come to the right place bro.
plus...seeing as how you have a unit as well...it may be good to compare notes about some of the diffs between the units!!
also, would absolutely love to hear about the gain mod you were working on when it broke back in '73.
talk soon bro..peace!
Welcome to the forum Bill. My name is Dino, Jimi's my homey, and fellow Ludwig afficianado. I currently own two units, and Jimi and I have been the go betweens for Keppy and R.G. for this clone project. You can find all the documentation compiled to date here; http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig%20Phase%20II%20Tech.pdf (http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig%20Phase%20II%20Tech.pdf), and the interconnection diagram here; http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig_Clone_PCB.pdf (http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig_Clone_PCB.pdf) .
There is another thread, http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92125.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92125.0) , these are all the tech notes compiled for the clone build. You'll find a boatload of details here, including trimmer settings that Jimi and I are using insofar as unit setup is concerned, observations, opinions, and other relevent information. Thanks to R.G. for starting that one, keeping the hype to a minimum, and concentrating on the important stuff.
Welcome, and cheers,
Dino
Thanks for the welcome, guys -
The gain circuit I was talking about inserting to make up for the Hi Z lack of gain was actually to clone the off board kluge gain (treble circuit) that's on that infamous terminal block. I was in 10th grade when I was postulating this and it occurred to me that this circuit must have been a bandaid circuit after the main boards had been released (probably to quench the propensity of the unit to break into wild oscillation as Jimi had stated) and I figured I would just clone it and break the input and cascade it in. I never ended up doing it, but when getting back into this unit after 37 years, I didn't know if I had put that terminal block there or if I had added the transistor myself. Thanks to this forum I now know that this was all original and that I only "planned" to clone this and insert as another gain stage. This was yet another reason why I thought I had hopelessly sabotaged restoring the unit. There is a transistor that I had cut out of circuit on the lower board to measure it's forward/reverse resistance (modern DVM can do this so much easier with actual junction voltage drops) and I remember when lifting out the upper deck in 1974 I shorted the +35V rail to ground and wiped out the series-pass transistor on the power supply. I replaced it and the power was restored. I very vaguely remember that a couple of the circuits/paths may not have been working, but that may have been lack of knowing the natural signal paths/functions at that time. The schematic deficiencies just kind of squelched in my mind any chance to resurrect the beast. BOY, WAS I SO WRONG! We will have a trinity soon....Frankenstein, circa 1931..IT'S ALIVE!!!..
:D
dude, so glad we could help ya, doctor FRONKenSHTEEEEN...
;)
I'm so vamped up, Jimi - I don't playmuch anymore, but boy am I psyched to take this comatose entity off life support and give it the dignity of a quality life again!
Just a last item before hitting the sack...I have nine wires going between theupper/lower deck...you guys specify 10! Will have to persue the interconnection signal paths, tomorrow ....
let us know, bill...it appears some of the phase II's didn't use connection # 5 (from left to right) on the console board, so you may be good! ;)
One thing to watch is that since all the wires in the originals simply slide on/off the PCBs, it's also very easy to get them replaced onto the wrong slot.
I figured that out after thinking about what *I'd* do, faced with slide-on wires like this. I would put them in a random mixture of right and wrong places, then "enjoy" a pleasant day or two trying to figure what exactly I'd done. :icon_lol:
:icon_redface: My bad....there are ten wires in my harness. Looks like lower console wiring is all correct. Next break time I will get into the upper deck. That's where I expect to find the wiring errors and/or broken wires. Just for posterity's sake I have model 9000, serial #1480.
Into upper deck. Measuring at C11, 48.5VDC. THERE'S NO +36VDC at pin 17! That's the ticket! Pretty simple series pass regulator and zener circuit to troubleshoot tomorrow. I've got it scared!! :) Of note, my xfmr wires were different colors than your's, Jimi...
wow, 48 vdc?
interesting!! gonna look at mine later, see what the serial is.
since i just finally got around to re-upping my dot com, i'm gonna put up a section on the pII, where folks can get all the resources for it, and hopefully create a registry for them.
just outta curiosity bill, does yours have the 1 meg resistor tacked on to the fall board?
could the higher voltage you're reading be a result of a failed electrolytic?
The +48VDC is before the series-pass regulator comprised of the 36V zener diode D3 and series-pass transistor Q6. Incidentally, I just replaced Q6 with a 2N5551 transistor and I now have my +35VDC restored!! WOO HOO! :icon_biggrin: Will save the electrolytic cap replacements for later. Time to hook up a sweep generator and oscilloscope and check the signal paths! As far as the bottom board is concerned, are you talking top or bottom of board? I do have a 1.5 meg resistor across R33 on the topside of the board. I may have done that myself back in 1974 to adjust the bias on transistor Q7. Let me know where the resistor you're talking about is in proximity to.
The 48V is pre-regulator, Jimi. That's normal . Q6 and D3 then regulate down to the ~ +36VDC rail. I've got a severe rolloff on my sweep driving from the Hi Z input to the primary out jack. I'm now seeing the same rolloff on the stereo (dry) output jack. Cool it's common to both. Looks exactly like a bad dc block electrolytic cap between stages. Damn! I'm running out of time, gotta head home. Will get back into this tomorrow. It will be relatively easy to trace through the circuit to nail it......baby steps :)
To clarify the rolloff is on the low end, classic for a electrolytic or bad connection somewhere.
I very much recommend just taking it by both hands, making a list of all the electro caps and replacing them all. It'll save you time later. I also recommend remelting all the solder joints with a little fresh rosin core solder.
hey bro, yah, the 1 meg IS across r33 i think...
so you did that mod? seems the factory did, too!!!
bad caps scare me bro...please replace 'em all asap. i reccomend 100v electros, as most are 65 volt anyways. originally, i thought they were lower!!
if you increase the size of the c11 on the console board it will be a little quieter.....i run 300mf on mine
;).
c1 on the fall board seems to work well at 22mf
Well, i guess i didn't do that mod in 1974! Trying to remember what I was doing or intended to do 37 years ago and what Ludwig did to fine tune the product off the assembly line is like a dreamworld. Incidentally , I blew the power supply when I had the upper deck slip and short out on the chassis, all those years ago..... Not to worry on the caps, being that I work in product service of an audio company, I have bins galore of parts on the wall. I 've also got the luxury of audio sweep generators, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer and Audio Precision analyzer at my disposal.
Well, that was easy! .01 uF mylar Capacitor C3 on the Hi Z input was shot. Replaced it, now have full sweep restored. Damn, my lunch period is over, set it aside yet again.
Man, you guys have really been making some progress. I've been ignoring this thread on purpose because I was really busy this summer and had to fix a few things around the studio and build some things for friends, now I'm trying to get together the rest of the parts for some API mic pre clones because I won some PCBs for them on the interwebs and the transformers are expensive. I really want this to be my very next project. I think I might want to try and do a layout with board mounted faders like an old Yamaha or Roland analog synth to try and cut down on all that offboard wiring.
I just wanted to check in and say GREAT JOB!!!
MAJOR DISCOVERY!
The striped MYLARS caps on my lower board are proving to be defective, literally across the board. I'm sweeping 20Hz -20kHz into the Hi Z input and each stage was acting like I had a HPF cornered at about 800Hz on it! As I changed the capacitors that would restore that stage only to find the next stage with the same predicament. After getting to the fourth stage, I decided their ALL coming off. I can't see how other people aren't having rampant trouble with these caps. They're the interstage dc blocking capacitors and also used in some of the filters we switch in. It's a well documented fact to change electrolytics in vintage products, but i wasn't expecting to find the carnage of these parts. My particular pedal has survived being placed in a unheated basement that was literally as cold as the winter outside for a couple of years and just thrown into a corner wherever I moved. The capacitor themselves are sticky, like they're decomposing. The president of our company took one look at these and said they are "notorious" failure parts. Well, that's 21 MORE parts to be changed (actually 22 with the little cap, C29). So, Jimi, R.G., you can rest tonight because I'm doing a wholesale change of EVERY capacitor in this unit. I'm astounded that you guys aren't experiencing this or may not know know how much low-end balls that this machine has been slowly depriving you!
What's very interesting is I measured one of the .1uF caps that was failing miserably in the unit and it measured dead-nuts, .1uF! Checked to see what frequency the capacitance meter was using to measure the cap, 1 kHz! The cap turns into a pumpkin 800Hz and down...LOL!
Hmmm... maybe explains the weakness of the fuzz to some extent. Yup, full cap job sounds good.
Quote from: Mr Bill on August 05, 2011, 07:35:43 PM
The striped MYLARS caps on my lower board are proving to be defective, literally across the board. ...
What's very interesting is I measured one of the .1uF caps that was failing miserably in the unit and it measured dead-nuts, .1uF! Checked to see what frequency the capacitance meter was using to measure the cap, 1 kHz! The cap turns into a pumpkin 800Hz and down...LOL!
It would be very interesting to capture one of these caps and do an electronic postmortem. Given that the capacitance looks right, what are the ESR and ESL?
R.G. ,we've got a rinky dink LCR meter here, doesn't measure ESR on it. My last company, Harris, had all the high end equipment to measure those parameters, parasitics, etc.
These failures bode exactly as I saw at the company I worked before Harris where we were using .1uF SMT caps on broadband microwave amps interstage and the assembler had applied too much heat to the part. With electrolytics drying out, you literally see may see a 100th or 1000th of the original value, all the way to just measuring a resistance when completely depleted. I was expecting to read the parts as being a shell of their original value, very weird to have the part start behaving mid spectrum and be literally open at the low end! I can probably query one of our cap vendors to demystify this failure mode when I get back to work on Monday.
The interstage capacitance values are interesting for the impedance of the circuit their working into, you size the interstage cap to be able to pass the lowest frequency on the BW you want to pass. These caps are deliberately undersized as you cascade stage to stage, suspect they had monstrous instabilities in this design when they first fired them up, motorboating, etc. My brother, who owned this originally, got fed up that when he kicked in effects on stage and it would occasionally emit a big WHELP... LOL!
Being that these units were built in a very short window of time, what '70 and '71, you would figure that we are sharing pretty close to the same date code lots on the caps, I would think that there MANY time bombs out there. If I did not have the test equipment available and changed all the electrolytics I would've been dead in the water and so frustrated.
Quote from: R.G. on August 04, 2011, 11:00:36 AM
One thing to watch is that since all the wires in the originals simply slide on/off the PCBs, it's also very easy to get them replaced onto the wrong slot.
I figured that out after thinking about what *I'd* do, faced with slide-on wires like this. I would put them in a random mixture of right and wrong places, then "enjoy" a pleasant day or two trying to figure what exactly I'd done. :icon_lol:
you're a sick man, r.g.
i like that. :thu:
hmmmm...if all the trop fish are sh**ty, and are being used as blocking caps, i wonder if that's where my hum problem is coming from?
was the schem right with all the values? if so, any suggestions for replacements?
deano, yah bro, i think that may indeed affect the fuzz...as i remember in mine originally, the fuzz was so damn loud and fuzzy it was practically unusable.
you know...
perfect!! ;)
:icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 06, 2011, 04:37:48 PM
hmmmm...if all the trop fish are sh**ty, and are being used as blocking caps, i wonder if that's where my hum problem is coming from?
Given the way that the smaller film caps are used, it's unlikely that they are behind the hum problem. They could well be a cause of odd tone qualities.
Generally hum filtering is done by bigger electrolytic capacitors.
Quotewas the schem right with all the values? if so, any suggestions for replacements?
It would be very interesting to see whether the two additional units in captivity match on small cap values.
wellp, i posted the values i had.
but remember, i changed every single electro in the unit, even trippled the one in the first stage of the power supply.
and the hum improved, but didn't disappear.
makes me wonder...in tube amps, a hum that just won't go away can be a leaky coupling cap. wonder if i'd be better off just to take a chance and change 'em all, maybe go with better quality ones? is there a brand or type you'd reccomend, R.G.?
i usually use orange drops in amps, but in this i'd imagine there's probably a better...and cheaper...choice.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 06, 2011, 05:43:00 PM
but remember, i changed every single electro in the unit, even trippled the one in the first stage of the power supply.
and the hum improved, but didn't disappear.
Hum comes from many places. DC power supply filter caps are only one of them. The actual path of current down a ground wire can cause hum. So can jacks and controls not making good contact with the metal housing. So can radiation from a transformer.
Quotemakes me wonder...in tube amps, a hum that just won't go away can be a leaky coupling cap.
Not exactly. That may be what makes you hear the hum, but the hum starts when the leaky cap lets the tube pull too much current, overloading its part of the power supply, and causing higher ripple. The cause *is* the leaky cap, but it's not the cap letting hum through that you hear.
Quote
wonder if i'd be better off just to take a chance and change 'em all, maybe go with better quality ones? is there a brand or type you'd reccomend, R.G.?
i usually use orange drops in amps, but in this i'd imagine there's probably a better...and cheaper...choice.
Before you set off on a difficult quest to replace all the caps, first make sure your grounding is pristine. Take every single wire that says ground on it, and trace it back to the input signal jack. While you're at it, remove all the jacks, clean the bushings and the area where they contact the metal housing. Ideally, put a star washer on the inside of the housing on each jack to bite into the metal housing for good contact. Get five 9V batteries and plug them up in series, then clip the resulting 45Vdc (!) to the console board where the transformer ct and one secondary wire goes in. This gives you at least a short time of running purely on batteries. If it hums with this as power, the power supply wasn't the cause. If there is no hum, then the AC power supply was causing it in one way or another.
I can direct you to film caps that are perfectly good for the 50V/60V environment in the Ludwig, but I hate for you to go to all that trouble and still have it hum.
FWIW, we didn't find any cap values last week that differed from the schem. I built mine with regular schem values, using plain vanilla 50v film caps (mix of ECQ-B & Topmay). I don't think you need any special caps for this, as none of them get the supply voltage before it's regulated down to 35v. Well, none of the film caps anyway.
I finally get a day off tomorrow, so maybe I can set the trimmers and do gutshots for the clone (I've got the other photos already). And maybe, just maybe a video. Maybe. Wish me luck!
i'll go thru and trace every ground connection then, first. it's entirely possible just from the corrosion on the footboard that that could have a crappy ground. but there's only so many things that can cause that...i mean, a bad cap, transformer, or diode, right? i mean, if it isn't the ground.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 07, 2011, 06:44:36 PM
i'll go thru and trace every ground connection then, first. it's entirely possible just from the corrosion on the footboard that that could have a crappy ground. but there's only so many things that can cause that...i mean, a bad cap, transformer, or diode, right? i mean, if it isn't the ground.
Right. Any one of them may cause it. You have to track down and kill them *all* to get low hum. There isn't any short cut. Mother Nature insists that it *all* be correct before She'll give you freedom from hum.
I made a point of the corrosion, bad contacts, and so on because it's something people will never think of until they run into it.
a really good point, too.. i have screwed myself out of a lot of repair money by telling peeps how to fix their amps...often the switching jacks in effect loops are never used by people, and over time the corrosion builds up to the point where contact is lost...boom! dead amp.
i tell peeps to put a patch cord across the send and return, and if the problem goes away, get some plastic-safe contact cleaner, spray it in the holes and stick a plug in 10-12 times.
so far, none of the amps i've diagnosed made it onto my workbench.
thanks bro. ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 07, 2011, 09:05:08 PM
thanks bro. ;)
I have all these scars to remind me of little lessons that Mother Nature has taught me when I wasn't paying sufficient attention. :icon_wink:
me too!!! ;D
Well, I started replacing the tropical fish after work, tonight. Got seven left to do on the lower board and then I will replace the electrolytics. I've saved the fish and will then sweep them to see how many actually are bad.
All tropical fish and electrolytics replaced, It appears I only had trouble with three of the .1uF, the most prevalent of the tropicals cap. It's important to point out when you use a cap as an interstage coupler/dc block they can breakdown/leak in circuit due to the difference in collector voltage of the previous stage and the base bias voltage on the next. When I placed an equal value cap across these the low end flattened back out. When measured with the tiny voltage on the cap meter, they looked fine. They also looked fine sweeping a signal without the DC differential being supplied. That being said, I would hold off changing them out. I think my failure was unique.
Failure found to date, were the three caps, the bad series-pass transistor in the power supply, both the low Z and Hi Z input transistors were blown. I may get the transistor designators wrong here because I don't have the schematic right in front of me but I was getting no collector voltage on Q5, Q6 due to Q21 being open. That being repaired I need to get into the upper deck to find out why I can't get Q21 enabled. I also found the 2N4401 transistor on the little add-on board was also blown open. Both devices were changed. All other voltages on the lower deck transistors appear normal.
While replacing the 2N4401 transistor on the add-on circuit, I found a 3rd resistor, a 68K which was wired between the base and collector. This wasn't wired on on the terminal lugs proper, but through the holes that stake the lugs to the bakelite block. Does anybody else have 3rd resistor? This "may" actually be a mod I did to bring up the bias on that transistor. I remember telling Jimi I couldn't remember if I had built that little circuit, as it turned out I didn't, but that resistor may be the vague memory of modifying it 37 years ago.
My treadle range is a piddly 0-7.2VDC. I'm going to readjust the throw once I get the rest of the pedal trouble free (I have 12VDC available on the highside of the pot).
So, tomorrow it's time to attack the upper deck!
The 2N4401 is rated for 40V BVceo. I am mildly surprised that they'd use those in a device with a 35V supply. The supply voltage was one reason I recommended the 2N5551 and 2N5401 to Keppy for all the signal transistors. They're rated for 160Vdc, and are not likely to go mad even if the pass transistor fails - which I consider likely. It's under a lot of power and voltage stress.
We did find that hidden 68K resistor on the add-on amplifer on another unit; good to know that it was a consistent add-on. It seems to work on the clone board.
R.G. - I agree with you on the 40V rating! Right now I'm trying just to get the signal paths up and running. I actually am using a 2N5551 in the series-pass just to get the 35V up so I could continue. That's grossly inadequate with the 12 volt differential I have across it and will be measuring the current tomorrow to see the dissipation, as I attack the top deck.
One thing that could be interesting here; float a stock, fixed three terminal TO-220 reg in between the 48V/36V to take the brunt of the dissipation . This would also have the advantage of pre-regging the series pass reg! A stock value would just have to accommodate for the voltage drop and still leave a little so that the 36VDC series pass had a little range available to do it's job, which would consist of "laying in a hammock" with the smaller differential across it and could easily go back to TO-92, etc! Obviously a variable 317 device could be used with the 240 resistor and other calculated value to dial it in... Just a thought! Ripple rejection certainly would be enhanced with this simple, cascaded design..I think I'm going to try it.
FWIW, my clone uses a TIP112 Darlington (TO-220) for Q6 on the console board. That's worked great to regulate my 48v DC supply (which is a regulated switching supply) down to 35v. It's an ECB pinout, though, so it might be an awkward fit. It's still better in my mind than floating an additional regulator feeding a TO-92. I'm not sure if it would perform any more/less capably regulating the AC off the transformer, though. In my unit, the plastic of the TO-220 housing heats up, but not to the point I can't keep my finger on it. I can't keep my finger on the metal back, but it won't be melting any insulation. ;)
Crap, that reminds me I was supposed to measure the current draw for R.G. :icon_redface:
Quote from: Mr Bill on August 10, 2011, 10:35:50 PM
One thing that could be interesting here; float a stock, fixed three terminal TO-220 reg in between the 48V/36V to take the brunt of the dissipation . This would also have the advantage of pre-regging the series pass reg! A stock value would just have to accommodate for the voltage drop and still leave a little so that the 36VDC series pass had a little range available to do it's job, which would consist of "laying in a hammock" with the smaller differential across it and could easily go back to TO-92, etc! Obviously a variable 317 device could be used with the 240 resistor and other calculated value to dial it in... Just a thought! Ripple rejection certainly would be enhanced with this simple, cascaded design..I think I'm going to try it.
Give it a try. The LM317 is one of my favorites for anything not bog-standard, and it's not limited to 40V max like the 78xx series. I thought about just adapting a 317 to the layout I just did for the controls panel, but finally just went with the stock emitter follower. The 317 has no voltage limit as long as you can keep transients from putting more than 40V across it. I've used an LM317 for regulating a tube power supply at 400V.
I went through several options on what to do with the power before deciding to leave it as it is. Sloth wins again. I thought about the LM317, boosting a three terminal, power zener, and a discrete regulator. All of them seemed to be a lot of effort for not much improvement.
For the benefit of the readers who don't have a cadaver to work on, I put dual pad spaces on the console board, so it takes either a TO-92, a TO-126 or a TO-220. The 220 is really the only answer for any kind of reliabilty if you feed this either a high voltage or a stiff preregulated supply. Even then, you only get about 2W dissipation with no sink.
The thing I actually favor is running it from a 24Vac wall wart, full wave rectified. Most 200-300ma 24Vac wall warts have an open circuit voltage of 27-30V, and rectify to around 37-39V. This puts minimal stress on the emitter follower, since it's being fed just enough voltage to regulate with. It'll stay much cooler.
Another option you might want to consider is putting in a 10V/1W zener where that 100 ohm resistor is before the pass transistor. It'll waste ten of the raw volts and move much of the heating out of the pass device.
Keppy - no biggie on measuring current. It's only necessary for the minimal wall wart kind of supplies. Actually, with ten LEDs (!) on the front panel, all pulling about 5ma, they could easily pull more current than the whole rest of the circuits. On the new console layout, I ran all the LEDs from 48Vdc directly, through three 1/4 W resistors each in series to get the regulated current in the pass device down. It's more reliable to waste power in resistors than in transistors. :icon_lol:
Keppy - I'm going to be in the upper deck today so I can measure the current for R.G. and post it.
Thanks Bill, but I think we already measured Dino's. It's the clone we're after.
Gotcha!
Well, MAJOR humbling experience. When I started troubleshooting this circuit, I originally figured I needed to have the bypass signal path working first and was expecting a true FLAT bypass. Working on our companies studio-quality mixers, equalizers, crossovers all day, I was looking for a FLAT bypass!
Of course, the bypass does not resemble this, it's more akin to the "reverse smiley" you set up on a graphic equalizer as a starting point when you go out to do a gig mix.
When I originally saw the roll off on the sweep and when I sine swept it and observed it cornering around the 800 Hz region at the low end, I immediately went after the caps. The only problem was that my generator was on "divide by ten". OOPS! 80 Hz! So, naturally when I started paralleling the interstage caps, I was seeing some improvement, but well you get the idea....
So, Jimi, leave those tropical fish in the tank! Of course, I read R.G.'s Tech Overview" on the way home on the bus, and he comments on it being a buffered-bypass.
Oh well, water under the bridge. I did find a number of bad transistors on the lower deck, my focus tomorrow will be getting the fuzz animation circuit to switch Q21 on/off and get the Q5/Q6 into the equation!
By the way, R.G., that "Tech Overview" is an exemplary piece!
Have a question on Q21 on the lower deck, when the animation fuzz is not driving the base of Q21 (fuzz bypassed) do you have a quiescent base and emitter voltage in the 2-3VDC region as Jimi had mentioned on his point-point transistor readings or does the base and emitter voltages read zero and depend on the animation circuit to solely switch on the rail to Q5 & Q6?
Lastly, could somebody post or re post the voltages on the upper deck transistors/test points? I would assume these are all with all effect off....
Found a transistor up there (I think Q1, my schematic is at work) just in front of the UJT, that I had cut out of circuit in 1974 and replaced with another part. When I went to measure the voltages on it, I kind of blinked.....is that....yep, I had wired the replacement transistor with the collector and emitter reversed!
Surely this was the ticket to finally go LIVE. Replaced the tranny with a 2N4123 just to continue reviving the circuit...still no beans.....the upper deck is the key....getting closer!
Quote from: Mr Bill on August 12, 2011, 10:09:00 PM
Have a question on Q21 on the lower deck, when the animation fuzz is not driving the base of Q21 (fuzz bypassed) do you have a quiescent base and emitter voltage in the 2-3VDC region as Jimi had mentioned on his point-point transistor readings or does the base and emitter voltages read zero and depend on the animation circuit to solely switch on the rail to Q5 & Q6?
Not sure what you mean. The animation circuit doesn't drive the fuzz that I can tell, unless you're talking about the fuzz repeat/perc. repeat. The Fuzz stomp switch just selects which point of the circuit to couple to the filters, so as far as I can tell those transistors should look electrically identical in both states, bypassed and not.
Quote from: Mr Bill on August 12, 2011, 10:09:00 PM
Lastly, could somebody post or re post the voltages on the upper deck transistors/test points? I would assume these are all with all effect off....
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 11, 2011, 10:52:10 PM
control board transistor voltages all sliders @ min, bypass on, fx on
q1
e 33.8
b 31.2
c 35.5
q2 is oddball, it has TWO BASES
i don't know what the first terminal is, so...
? 7.2 - 4.9 keeps cycling
b1 14.4
b2 .3
q3
e 0
b .5
c 10.9 - 0 keeps cycling
q4
e 0
b .5
c 15.6 - .1 keeps cycling
q5
e 0
b .5
c 6.4 - 5.4 keeps cycling
q6
e 35.5
b 36.0
c 44.8
Quote from: Mr Bill on August 12, 2011, 10:09:00 PM
Found a transistor up there (I think Q1, my schematic is at work) just in front of the UJT, that I had cut out of circuit in 1974 and replaced with another part. When I went to measure the voltages on it, I kind of blinked.....is that....yep, I had wired the replacement transistor with the collector and emitter reversed!
Surely this was the ticket to finally go LIVE. Replaced the tranny with a 2N4123 just to continue reviving the circuit...still no beans.....the upper deck is the key....getting closer!
Hang in there! R.G. said in an earlier post that that transistor is responsible for the fast/slow switching on the animation.
Keppy, i just want to point out that your clone is gorgeous!
The last few weeks exploring the forum posts have been extremely exciting! 37 years of hoping SOMEBODY would be able to decipher the poor schematic rendering on the upper/lower schematics, let alone the horrific omittance of the upper deck pot/switch wiring!
Thanks a lot, Bill! I tried to make the look of mine an homage to the original. I'm really pleased with how it turned out. It's only the second enclosure etch I've done, and it could've been a real mess!
For some reason, this project just caught my eye and I've been happy to contribute. It was fun running down all the omissions/errors to get it working. It took four of us, two original units, and some random quasi-related schematics to get it done, but we got it!
...
Now what can I do with it? I think between this, the Synthbox, and the Basic Audio-inspired Squarewave I'm planning, I'm going to need a different kind of band than I'm used to being in. :o
So, Keppy , do you have an original? If, in fact you built one without having one of the old beast's present, that's absolutely incredible... The (lack of) documentation and trying to remember what I did to this pedal 37 years ago is frustrating.
What's wonderful is knowing that I had NOT built that 11th hour gain stage on the lug strip. I kind of thought I had. That was obviously a Ludwig, quick kludge. I had PLANNED to duplicate it and cascade it to make up for the lack of gain on the fuzz circuit. Back in '74 I assumed there was something wrong with the box when in fuzz mode, I mean who designs a pedal where when you go wet you can't even get to unity gain (Ludwig Electronic Division) ..LOL!
You guys are providing me with what was the most frustrating experience, having the beast, but not able to bring it back to life!
like i said before, drummers on lsd....lol
so much more than just stage levels... (you know, that's how ya know if the stage is level, the drool runs out of both sides of their mouth evenly)
:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_mrgreen:
Hey, Jimi! Leave those tropical fish in the tank! I'm SO close to getting this beast flying! Now that I'm on the upper deck, I have nothing hooked to I believe #12, I think you stated that some people don't have anything connected there, five in from the edge of the board? Looking at the copper trace there it actually is a dual connection on an adjacent trace, so they could've wired this connection "off board" at the pot/switch connections. When the hundreds of technicians were building these harnesses, after about 10,000 they probably wanted to introduce a little poetic license to break up the monotony....
hi bill, yah, on mine, no connection there.
i don't think they had that many techs, lol...probably like 5 asian children in a sweat shop somewhere..lol.
can't wait to hear it's running bro...
gonna use mine today live...should blow a few minds!!
;)
No, I don't have an original, but I might as well have since Jimi & Dino were giving me so much info.
Funny story: I left the clone on a rug in my basement after making that video. That was the day we put down that rug. My dog started sleeping there. Now my wife tells me he hasn't slept there since I moved the pedal a couple days ago. I guess he likes it!
a bump to check in, guys...any news?
Back in the pedal tonight. One thing to point out is that what we call a "clean" signal coming off the lower board, Q3 collector prior to the fuzz section is indeed a pre-distortion network. Q5, Q6 then provide the amplitude modulated "super fuzz via Q21 being AM'd.
Because Q3 has it's emitter tied to ground, the incoming waveform, will have the negative clipped off, as Q3 gets turned off during that period and the positive limited by the base-emitter drop. The collector waveform is a very asymmetrical waveform as you would expect, with the emitter grounded. If there was an emitter resistance present, you'd have something to work against to reproduce the entire waveform. But that isn't what we want here.
R.G., you might want to amend your "tech Review" on this, as I kept assuming the signal must be clean at Q3's collector when it can not be. Also when you get to the fuzz/non fuzz page, the "non fuzz" signal is really the pre-distorted signal. You did a hell of a job on the analysis, R.G., just on this aspect I was spinning my wheels on assuming the Q3 collector waveform was supposed to be linear. I don't other people to get snagged on this.
Anyhow, I've now gone ahead into the two BPF sections and found that I do have drive into pin 7 on the lower board but no output on the filters, pin 6. All transistor voltages are right on and as all capacitors have been changed, I was a little suspicious on how both filter paths could have "died." I double-checked pin 7 and pin 6 to make they were indeed making continuity to sections of the board. The quiescent trajectory voltage points at the two trimmer wipers were just as Jimi had chronicled. Just before I left I looked at R44 which is one of the filters output heading to the pin output. I saw on the filter side a low level, band passed signal with nothing on the other side, which is hooked directly to pin 6. I measure 5K to ground at pin 6. This is the point where we drive our little off board kludge, if I'm right. I had a blown 2N4401 there, which I replacedand it then had I think .6V on the base and if I remember right, about a 10VDC for the collector reading. I plan to pull the wire off pin 6 tomorrow to see if it sudenly pops up.
Q3 is biased by R12, R13 & R14, giving it room to swing on the negative side. It might be under-biased, as I've noticed some distortion when I play hard in bypass mode. It's not half-wave rectified or anything, though.
Hi, Kep - Not trying to draw any controversy here (anything but), just making an observance. My boss noticed this immediately when taking a glance at the schematic, I mean the base-emitter is a shunt diode with the emitter tied directly to ground (clip). It produces a haversine (old school) at the collector. Unless you're swinging a tiny signal way below the peak-peak voltage of the diode junction voltage how would you expect to reproduce the whole waveform? If I can find a scope available this morning, with capability to capture the waveforms to file I will post the Q3 base/collector waveforms.
My reason to post was that I was spinning my wheels trying to figure out how "my" clean signal wasn't clean. It's not supposed to be at that point, it's by design..
Quote from: Mr Bill on August 15, 2011, 09:32:21 PM
Back in the pedal tonight. One thing to point out is that what we call a "clean" signal coming off the lower board, Q3 collector prior to the fuzz section is indeed a pre-distortion network. Q5, Q6 then provide the amplitude modulated "super fuzz via Q21 being AM'd.
Because Q3 has it's emitter tied to ground, the incoming waveform, will have the negative clipped off, as Q3 gets turned off during that period and the positive limited by the base-emitter drop. The collector waveform is a very asymmetrical waveform as you would expect, with the emitter grounded. If there was an emitter resistance present, you'd have something to work against to reproduce the entire waveform. But that isn't what we want here.
I'm a little hamstrung in this area because I've never seen a real Ludwig Phase II, nor even a clone, only the schematics; so what follows is based on theory.
In my experience, the circuit setup for Q3 matches a voltage-feedback gain stage. The 100K from the collector not only biases the stage with a current into the base, but also provides AC feedback to the base. There are series resistors into the input, so the actual DC voltage on the base is almost immaterial. The base balances currents and sits at a relatively fixed DC voltage, much like the inverting input of a more normal opamp sits at a "virtual ground".
Your post made me wonder if I'd missed something, so I popped the circuit into the simulator. It biases up with the collector at about 9Vdc on a 17V supply. I don't know exactly what the power supply voltage is there; if you could measure the DC voltage at the high end of the Q3 collector resistor, I could get some more accurate sims - or breadboard it. Anyway, the output is undistorted up to several volts of signal in the simulation.
That makes me wonder - is your board not a match to the factory schematic, or is is possibly faulty? Could you measure the DC levels on base, collector, and the top side of the collector resistor and post them?
%^&*pit error on my end, R.G., I was hitting the front end too hard. :icon_redface: When you turn up the drive, Q3 is the first transistor to go non linear, with the output of Q2 looking fine. Of course it is a unity gain follower so you're not running out of swing as on Q3.
Turns out my formant filters are working. What I don't have is any voltages on Q5, Q6, and Q21 other than Q21's collector voltage. The fuzz animation circuit obviously supplies the pulse necessary to turn on Q21. But with the animation off, there must be a source to supply Q21's base to bias it on to some level, so the fuzz circuit will still pass signal. That's where I'm at right now.
Quote%^&*pit error on my end, R.G., I was hitting the front end too hard.
Would that explain why the formants are much cleaner (clearer), with the fuzz off, and you roll back on the guitar volume? It certainly is the case with both my units. If I turn off the fuzz, the formants are louder, but not as articulate.
I'm going to unplug (I think wire connection #15, no schematic here) tomorrow that drives the base of Q21 and place maybe a 47k resistor in series with a variable power supply on the base of Q21 and walk the fuzz circuit through it's paces. If it comes alive, then the trouble is all upper deck.
Hi, digi2t -
My fuzz circuit is currently dead in the water due to Q21 not being "driven" correctly. I'm going to jump start it tomorrow per my last post. Once I get the fuzz fully working, then the animation, I intend to run this through the ringer on our Audio Precision analyzer with gain, FFT, distortion +noise floor readings. Checking the formants through their range both dry and wet should be very interesting. Just a quick response on your question, the fuzz circuit was always weak on gain in comparison to the dry signal. This is a drum company and having the wet signal at least start out at unity gain and then progress from their, appeared to be foreign to them.
I would also like to get some captures of what I'm talking about in the previous posts with Q3 on the lower deck. Back in the 70's, I always assumed the pedal was malfunctioning gain-wise on the fuzz circuit. It wasn't until I saw posts maybe five years ago on Harmony Central that this was the norm.
Quote from: Mr Bill on August 16, 2011, 04:12:46 PM
%^&*pit error on my end, R.G., I was hitting the front end too hard. When you turn up the drive, Q3 is the first transistor to go non linear, with the output of Q2 looking fine. Of course it is a unity gain follower so you're not running out of swing as on Q3.
No biggie. I've done some real big belly flops in my time. We all do. At least the ones who tell the truth do. :icon_biggrin:
Quote
What I don't have is any voltages on Q5, Q6, and Q21 other than Q21's collector voltage. The fuzz animation circuit obviously supplies the pulse necessary to turn on Q21. But with the animation off, there must be a source to supply Q21's base to bias it on to some level, so the fuzz circuit will still pass signal.
Go here: http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig P2 Schemo.jpg (http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig%20P2%20Schemo.jpg)
I had to go put the corrected one back up, as i had apparently taken the one from 2004 down. It's there now.
The answer to your implied question is that there is a voltage supplied to the base of Q21 through the fuzz mix pot and the fuzz footswitch. That section is in the upper left hand corner.
I'm doing my "ten seconds out" pacing after having a post I spent 45 minutes on, dump when I went to post.... This happened last week, too... Maybe I should compose it in Word, then cut and paste it in.
Quote from: Mr Bill on August 16, 2011, 07:27:34 AM
Hi, Kep - Not trying to draw any controversy here (anything but), just making an observance. My boss noticed this immediately when taking a glance at the schematic, I mean the base-emitter is a shunt diode with the emitter tied directly to ground (clip). It produces a haversine (old school) at the collector. Unless you're swinging a tiny signal way below the peak-peak voltage of the diode junction voltage how would you expect to reproduce the whole waveform? If I can find a scope available this morning, with capability to capture the waveforms to file I will post the Q3 base/collector waveforms.
My reason to post was that I was spinning my wheels trying to figure out how "my" clean signal wasn't clean. It's not supposed to be at that point, it's by design..
No worries. In my noobishness, I was looking only at the base despite the fact that you referenced the emitter grounding in the post. Essentially, I forgot about the fixed diode drop from base to emitter. You were entirely right about me being wrong. I'm still kinda sketchy on a lot of applications of transistors. So it makes sense that I would build the first working copy of a crazy effect with about 30 transistors. Umm, how'd that happen again?
OK - guess I've "recovered" from losing my whole post. Digi2t, I plan on fully documentating this unit on our Audio Precision Analyzer as soon as I get full functionality..... Gain, FFT, Distortion, Noise Floor, etc.... No problem to look at the formant filters, with and without distortion.....
R.G., here's what I don't know is in the design, or a quirk on my unit. Q3 has a collector available rail ~10VDC. Q3's quiescent collector voltage is at ~ 8.5VDC, (on my unit). No leaky interstage caps to throw off bias. It drives into the distortion through dc blocks to Q5/Q6. I don't understand how my "Q point" rail is close to the top rail instead of 1/2 rail, unless intelligently designed in.
Anyhow, looking to tomorrow to intimidate the fuzz circuit....
Kep - Sorry to set you off, NEVER my intention...,you have been and, I hope will be a continued mentor to me... you guys have provided the golden keys to be able to resurrect these beasts and I've been waiting 37 years to resurrect the trek...
Quote from: Mr Bill on August 16, 2011, 11:04:01 PM
R.G., here's what I don't know is in the design, or a quirk on my unit. Q3 has a collector available rail ~10VDC. Q3's quiescent collector voltage is at ~ 8.5VDC, (on my unit).
With no info on the actual voltages, I just banged in a 12V supply for it, and it biased at 9V. Pretty similar.
QuoteNo leaky interstage caps to throw off bias. It drives into the distortion through dc blocks to Q5/Q6. I don't understand how my "Q point" rail is close to the top rail instead of 1/2 rail, unless intelligently designed in.
Well, my time in the EE biz taught me that there are all degrees of "intelligently designed in". :icon_lol:
I guess, putting it the way Napoleon said it, never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence. Or, by extension, ignorance or a boss demanding that it be on shelves yesterday coupled with a poor understanding of guitar signal levels. Overall, I'm not impressed with what little I can see of the design of this thing, with the exception that I don't understand how they got to the filters. I guess that the times and available parts, etc. were the pressures. Not all circuit designers are equally blessed with talent, just as not all painters (house or portrait) can do an equally good job.
For the purely techie side of it, the collector-base feedback circuit is poorly understood by even the minority of the small group of people who can design single transistor amplifiers instead of subbing parts. It's more complex to design than the four-resistor "stabilized bias" circuit, as the feedback resistor from collector to base is tied up in both DC bias conditions and AC gain at the same time, and in that it works best as a virtual-ground inverting amplifier with a series resistor in the front. Used like that, it makes the very best of the available power supply voltage. Or can, if you can get both the DC and AC conditions right. It loses none of the available power supply to an emitter resistor, but is still fully feedback stabilized and predictable in gain and other characteristics. DC stability is not as good as the stabilized-bias circuit or its stepbrother, the "noiseless bias" circuit, but it has its own beauties if you can get to them.
You can easily enough change that bias point. Increase that 10K from base to ground up to about 22K. This will increase the proportion of the collector voltage fed back to the base, allowing more base current and lowering the balance point to more like mid supply. In fact, in the simulation I did, a 22K put the collector at 5.1V with a 10V supply at the top of the 4.7K collector resistor. Clipping is really close to symmetrical.
I suspect the designer didn't think it mattered with a 100mV typical guitar signal at the high-Z input.
THIS IS AN OFFICAL NOTICE TO RECOGNIZE THE REBIRTH OF MR BILL'S MODEL 9000, SERIAL #1480...... :D :icon_biggrin:
DIED IN 1974
REBORN ON AUGUST 17, 2011!!!!!!!!!
THINK I'LL CALL HIM LUDWIG...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP8q0kfnhn8
Congratulations. Does the baby weigh the same as he used to? :icon_lol:
Probably a few grams lighter with the cap replacements! You're all-in-one schematic was the key. I was able to whip through the circuit without having to flip between the interconnect, upper and lower schematics strewn all over the bench. I had a bad connection on connection #30 on the upper deck. That was the voltage I needed to bring it back to life,
Now that all functionally and signal paths are restored, I've going to next change out the electrolytics on the top deck. I'm debating on completely rewiring the entire unit with a molex connector that would allow me to unplug the upper/lower decks.
Then , the fine tuning of the trimmers, treadle travel, etc. On the mechanical side, I have the long rubber strip that mounts to the bottom, but not the original feet, does anybody have the rough dimensions on these? I can then pick something similar, that should be fairly easy. The rubber pad on the foot pedal is gone, came off back in the 70's. It was always flapping in the breeze, as it was only being held by a small amount of rubber glue. Why I didn't glue it back then is pure laziness on my part.
Lastly, on one of the stack-illuminated switches on the console I'm missing one of the color circles for one of the positions, (can't remember which). Somebody posted the different colors/switch posistions either on this thread or on the clone thread. Does anybody have this handy? I was looking at three ring divider sheets which have different colored plastic where you insert a white piece of paper with what's contained in that section. I was planning on cutting out a piece of the color strip with a paper hole puncher to make the little replacement color filter.
I want to give a heartfelt thank you to R.G. , digi2t, Keppy and Jimi for your exceptional help on this resurrecting of this piece of metal!
My comatose child just opened it's eyes after 37 years and was fully competent, thank you, - Jimi!
dude, so glad it lives again!!!
hey, shot in the dark here, but you're not the same mr. bill that reverse engineered the harmonic percolator, are ya?
;)
which switch did ya need the color for?
you're better off to just use standard gels, and cut it out...it should be like a round circle, with a slightly smaller square tab on one side to slide into the switch.
there were no rubber feet as i recall, just the hard rubber strip that everyone loses.
dude, it's all due to the hard work of the team here, not just me...dino, keppy, and especially r.g.!
Congrats, Bill!
Thanks, Kep! - And you other guys! I LITERALLY can't put into words how much you have helped.....I HATE to bring this 90's buzz word, to credibility, "Closure" but that us how I feel!
Really happy that we could be of help. Great, great bunch of people here. I may not have even a tenth of the technical expertise of a lot of people here, but I always figure that you get out what you put in.
Cut yer teeth, bust yer chops, and help a guy up. That's what it's all about, and when the time comes, they'll be a hand there for ya when you stumble.
Congrats on getting it up and running again. A please to meet a fellow "Lud-ite" :icon_mrgreen:
P.S. Jimi had the same idea on the Molex connector. Personally, I'm planning on clipping all the board connectors, lengthening some strategic wires on the fall board, then drilling all the pads, and soldering all the wires to the boards. My #2 unit is especially bad. On many connectors, the wrap-around tabs have broken off. I know it will deduct from the "stockness" of these vintage pieces, but functionality dictates that I can't be doing 10 hours of maintenance, for ever hour of use. That's bull. Besides, the day I sell them, I want them to be as bullet-proof as possible. This effect IMHO was just way too far ahead of it's time, and still has plenty of relevence in todays music creation. I think it's only fair that some mods to improve the stability of the unit should be performed, without modifing the circuit, esthetics, or character of the effect. That's what the clone will be for :icon_twisted:.
digi2t - I'm not worrying about having the original wiring (so brittle), I've already changed all the lower board caps.. if somebodie's going to nitpick about the originality, well tough, I'm not selling, anyhow! It's still the original chunk of metal!.
I still have the top board extended on standoffs for troubleshooting purposes, , but need to get a picture or two online to celebrate...Then a video! I've already forwarded this to a fellow buddy, Don Mancuso, who is Lou Gramm's current guitarist and just so happens to work with me. Lou lives a couple miles north of where I work, right on Lake Ontario. Don was on the road with Lou last week, but currently is on a family holiday this week. My guitar chops are about 10-15% of what I could do back in the 70's, but he can play FINE!
The outside casing on the unit has a huge spray-painted tatoo, "PUTZ BROS" My brother was in a band called the Putz Brothers in '72, actually predecessing the Schmenge's, with John Candy... Somethin' like that...
Yeah, Jimi - There were five little plastic feet, along with the rubber strip that I still have. Just found out that we have a roll of adhesive-backed black rubber that will go on the pedal. That was easy! I think I'm missing two color gels.
VOICE FUZZ = CLEAR
FUZZ = RED
SLOW START = CLEAR
FAST START = GREEN
i think those ones only have the colours you have listed, bill..i'll try and check later, recovering from last nite...good gig, but man, am i tired. ;)
In answering you earlier question about, what is it, a Percolating Harmonizer? That would be another person.
Oh... another one has popped up...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ludwig-Phase-II-synthesizer-pedal-/200649543911?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2eb7a510e7 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ludwig-Phase-II-synthesizer-pedal-/200649543911?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2eb7a510e7)
Hmmm, 610$ in 3 days. 7 days left. Where she'll stop nobody knows....
On my watch list hehehehe
dudes.... wish me luck, another one has popped up, supposedly pristine and 100% complete...just "doesn't work"....the guy wants a FUZZBOX.
i should know saturday!!! if it's complete, i bet it's got some disconnected wires, probably only thing wrong with it...and...worst case, it's parts. best case, it will be something stupid!! ;)
so...a fuzzbox and it's mine...unreal. the guy also has a bunch of old vintage boxes that "don't work" supposedly...gonna go scoff up whatever i can. stay tuned! ;)
Oh man ... that's like DIY'ers wet dream Pinkjimi.
Quote from: digi2t on September 08, 2011, 09:13:57 AM
Oh... another one has popped up...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ludwig-Phase-II-synthesizer-pedal-/200649543911?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2eb7a510e7 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ludwig-Phase-II-synthesizer-pedal-/200649543911?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2eb7a510e7)
Hmmm, 610$ in 3 days. 7 days left. Where she'll stop nobody knows....
On my watch list hehehehe
the guy has sold 1 other thing on ebay...
seems like the bottom fell out since we cloned these....oooopsies...lol
Just did a cap job (electros only) on the second unit, the one that wasn't working right. It wasn't a cap problem, although this one sounds better than my other one now. It was one (or both) of the FD100 diodes that was flakey. As a matter of fact, I don't think they were the original diodes. The ones in my #1 unit actually have "100" on them. These looked liked 1N4148's. I was getting almost 27 volts on Q5, instead of the 8 to 9 that I should be getting. I think someone was trying to be creative. I did some cross referencing, and found that 1N914's are pretty close, and I had some on hand, so I popped them in and presto, everything works. Before, it would work for the first 5 or 10 minutes, and I would lose the yoyoy completely. I guess one of the diodes was heating up, and crapping out.
Going to do a cap job on the other one as well. So far, I'm still up in the air about the tropical fish though. I ordered all the caps for both units. I'm debating if I should change them out as well.
generally, only electros really go bad...if a cap isn't leaking or drifted too bad, no point really imho
Hi guys.
Just read through this entire thread at a single sitting !!!
This is going onto my "must build" list.
I've been thinking about the power supply requirements and have a question.
Has anybody measured the current draw of the clone?
The reason I ask is that I built a hybrid headphone amplifier a year or so back that's powered using a CISCO power supply.
The supply delivers 48V DC at 0.38A, so just a smidgen over 18W.
Would this do the job?
For completeness, here's a photo of the item.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj87/THC-Toecutter/photo.jpg)
Quote from: UKToecutter on October 08, 2011, 10:50:45 PM
Has anybody measured the current draw of the clone?
The reason I ask is that I built a hybrid headphone amplifier a year or so back that's powered using a CISCO power supply.
The supply delivers 48V DC at 0.38A, so just a smidgen over 18W.
It's fine. I suspect that 100ma would be fine. Unless it's too noisy, you're in.
There's an alternative for this supply as well.
Have a look at http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cisco-Adapter-PSA18U-480C-Aironet-AP-VOIP-phone-/220852032362?pt=COMP_EN_Networking_Components&hash=item336bce936a (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cisco-Adapter-PSA18U-480C-Aironet-AP-VOIP-phone-/220852032362?pt=COMP_EN_Networking_Components&hash=item336bce936a)
$14 each.
Gotta love fleabay............
OK, I decided to change out the electros on my units. Everything when well. Since I did one at a time, I could A B them, and the new electros do make a difference noise-wise. They're a bit quieter now.
So... I had ordered ALL new caps for both units. I decided to change out all the rest of the caps (tropical fish), and again, A B them to see if there would be any difference. Before I started, I made sure to get both unit as close soundwise as possible, in all modes. I took countless readings, and when I was satisfied that both were pretty damn close, then I went for it.
Well, there is a difference. The unit running all new caps sounds better. By "better" I mean the vowels are more apparent than before. I'm getting better frequency response from the high to low sweep. One thing that I did notice when I was recapping, a couple of the old caps came apart when I removed them from the board. The leg simply detatched itself from one side of the cap. Could it be that these caps have gotten too "dry" with time?
Some of my voltage readings at the test points went off as well with the new caps, so I had to realign everything. It sounds really crisp now, compared to the other unit.
I used 2 polys (chicklets) for the 0.15uF's on the fall board, a silver mica for the 220pF, and 100V metallized film for everything else. Really, great way to put some pop back into these babies.
Another thing, and this also applies to the clones, R32 on the console board should have been a trimmer, or maybe even a control pot. I was studying the fuzz side of the circuit, and this resistor, sitting opposite a diode, caught my fancy. "I wonder what would happen if I play with the resistance value here?", I wondered. So, I wired up a B1M pot, and swapped it into R32's place. It has the effect of determining the choppiness of the signal when the unit is in Fuzz/Percussive mode. With a pot in it's place, it act like the "Smooth" pot on the Tremulus Lune. At the 0 end, you here the percussive ticking, but the signal is not chopped. As you dial up the resistance, the signal gets more and more chopped, like a square wave tremolo. R32 is a 470K resistor, so it's basically a happy medium of both ends. Would have made a nice "Smooth" control on the unit.
Christ... by the time I'm done, I won't want to part with them. Maybe I'll just open a Ludwig Phase II authorized repair shop (cue the crickets chirping :icon_mrgreen:)
nice! i think i may go for it, as i do have that hum that makes no sense....it's either a diode or a cap generally in my experience.
just gotta wait til the winter's over so i got some disposable cash again.. ::)
dicking around with the ludwig earlier
http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=172147#
Nice!
here's a way better mix....
this thing is a trip!
http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=172148#