OK, just to keep from digging through 20 pages of notes.
You can (probably) power an LPII clone from Mouser Part number 553-WAU24-200, which is 24Vac, 200ma, $10 in a voltage doubler arrangement.
With two 220uF/100V caps and two 1N4007 diodes, this turns out about 58-74Vdc on the filter cap. Putting this into the regulator on the LPII console board (in a simulator) gives the desired 35Vdc out at up to about 75ma. If the current gets higher, you have to increase the size of the 220uF caps up to 470uF. And the pass transistor may burn up. It may anyway. The simulator doesn't tell me how hot my finger gets if I touch the transistor.
It's enough raw voltage anyway, and cheap.
I think the 553-WAU20-500,Xicon 412-224034 work too, but they're $10.25 each. Same circuit, a voltage doubler. 220uF/100V caps cost about $0.60 to $0.80 each depending on brand.
@keppy:
QuoteHmmm...I have an unregulated 15v supply that puts out 21-22v. Doubling that might be JUST high enough to drive the Zener without burning anything out. Maybe I'll try that first.
Simulation says that a 20V open circuit AC adapter with an internal resistance equivalent of less than 12 ohms will ...just... do it at a 50mA load current. We don't know the load current, but I'm guessing.
QuoteQuote
Could you list all the points where you want me to take readings from?
Console board pads 2 & 3 for the AC input, pad 17 for DC output from the regulator. While you're at it, it might be worthwhile to take readings at all the test points noted on the layout. I say MIGHT because I haven't looked thoroughly enough to know if those points are carrying any DC bias or would have any bearing on the settings of the trimpots. Probably just reading the power supply is fine for now.
Across C11, as well.
Quote from: R.G. on June 10, 2011, 03:17:57 PM
You can (probably) power an LPII clone from Mouser Part number 553-WAU24-200, which is 24Vac, 200ma, $10 in a voltage doubler arrangement.
Would this be any improvement on the 24Vdc supply I just bought at a thrift store for $1.49? (which I believe is also 200ma)
I was thinking using the DC supply might cut down on ripple with the existing filtering. I was planning on connecting the output of the doubler either just after D4/D5, or just before to drop the voltage a smidge.
Hi Kep,
Decided to post here as well, just in case....
OK, first off the pots. Bypass balance is a 10K, and the Z pot is 5K.
For the voltages, the unit settings were as follows;
Footswitches;
BYPASS OFF (meaning effect on)
All other switches OFF
Treadle-Toe down
Console;
All sliders set to 0 (minimum)
FUZZ switch-FUZZ/VOICE
SELECT switch-BOTH
SLOW START
All Formant switches - OFF
Voltages;
Console pad 2 to GND = 37.0 vac
Console pad 3 to GND = 37.0 vac
Console pad 2 to 3 = 74.3 vac
Console pad 17 to GND = 33.45 vdc (took about 1 minute to stabilize)
Console capacitor C11 to GND = 46.0 vdc
Motherboard pad 5 to GND = 33.45 vdc (took about 1 minute to stabilize)
Motherboard Test Points (all to GND pad 14);
TP1 - 0.624 vdc
TP2 - Toe down = 1.01 vdc Heel down = 13.85 vdc
TP3 - 3.807 vdc
TP4 - 2.292 vdc
TP5 - 3.74 vdc
TP6 - 3.81 vdc
TP7 - 3.80 vdc
TP8 - 9.26 vdc
TP9 - 18.54 vdc
Anything else you need?
Quote from: Keppy on June 10, 2011, 07:35:26 PM
Would this be any improvement on the 24Vdc supply I just bought at a thrift store for $1.49? (which I believe is also 200ma)
I was thinking using the DC supply might cut down on ripple with the existing filtering. I was planning on connecting the output of the doubler either just after D4/D5, or just before to drop the voltage a smidge.
AC output lets itself be doubled with only diodes and capcitors. DC has to be chopped/modulated to make AC, that doubled/rectified, and then filtered to DC. By starting with 24VAC, you eliminate having to chop or modulate the DC. You can't simply connect a passive diode/capacitor doubler onto a DC output and have it work. It requires an active oscillator/charge pump/switching whatever to make it AC first. That's why AC output wall warts are so handy - they produce pre-made AC for you to work with.
Fundamentally, that's one reason why George Westinghouse's AC distribution systems won out over Thomas Edison's DC distribution systems back in the late 1800s.
Actually, the 24Vdc supply from the thrift store *might* work, if you were to open it up and remove the diodes and filters that make 24Vdc. If it's not a switching power supply internally, but a standard (heavy!) transformer wall wart, then the transformer will be about 17-20Vac. This is marginal, but you may be able to do something with it if the unit doesn't absolutely have to have 35Vdc.
NOTE ==>> I DO NOT RECOMMEND YOU OPEN UP AND MODIFY A WALL-WART ADAPTER OF ANY KIND, BECAUSE OF THE ELECTRICAL SAFETY ISSUES. IT'S NOT WORTH DYING FOR.<<==
Quote from: digi2t on June 10, 2011, 08:38:05 PM
Voltages;
Console pad 2 to GND = 37.0 vac
Console pad 3 to GND = 37.0 vac
Console pad 2 to 3 = 74.3 vac
Console pad 17 to GND = 33.45 vdc (took about 1 minute to stabilize)
Console capacitor C11 to GND = 46.0 vdc
Motherboard pad 5 to GND = 33.45 vdc (took about 1 minute to stabilize)
...
Anything else you need?
Wow. That'll about ice it for the power supply. Thanks.
With 37Vac under load, the DC at C11 unloaded would be about 52.3V. As it is, it's 46, which means there's several volts of ripple, which makes sense for a small, low-current power supply.
Actually, I guess if you measured the DC across R22, it would tell us the actual DC current used by the whole thing. That's really maximal icing on the cake if you can do that.
Anyway, given that the voltage out is 33.5V, using a wall wart with 20 to 24Vac and a diode/capcitor doubler would work fine.
Thank you!
The other voltages will be used in debug, I'm sure.
Quote from: Keppy on June 10, 2011, 08:03:27 PM
R.G., got a link to the Fuzz switch candidate you found?
It's Mouser part 612-100-L1111, here:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/E-Switch/100DP6T1B1M1QEH/?qs=g8hxKYs5b3wZWJef%252bd%252bvLw%3d%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/E-Switch/100DP6T1B1M1QEH/?qs=g8hxKYs5b3wZWJef%252bd%252bvLw%3d%3d)
The almost matching DPDT, no center position for the others is the Mouser 612-100-F1112. You can get other brands of toggle switches, but the F1112 will match cosmetically, I think. Probably so well I would mix the up when wiring. :icon_lol:
fall board transistor voltages,...
q1
e 0
b .63
c 2.99
q2
e 3.65
b 4.18
c 10.25
q3
e 0
b .60
c 7.69
q4
e 2.77
b 3.07
c 10.26
q5
e 3.31
b 2.63
c .20
q6
e 0
b .60
c .20
q7
e 3.57
b 4.23
c 8.77
q8
e 3.56
b 4.21
c 11.21
q9
e 19.77
b 19.12
c 11.21
q10
e 10.58
b 11.21
c 18.70
q11
e 19.35
b 18.70
c 15.80
q12
e 3.58
b 4.21
c 15.80
q13
e 3.58
b 4.22
c 14.88
q14
e 3.55
b 4.15
c 17.35
q15
e 3.55
b 4.21
c 11.40
q16
e 19.62
b 18.96
c 11.40
q17
e 10.77
b 11.41
c 18.88
q18
e 19.53
b 18.88
c 15.62
q19
e 3.59
b 4.21
c 15.62
q20
e 3.59
b 4.18
c 17.60
q21
e 3.31
b 3.83
c 10.26
Yeee- haaaa!
(as we say here in Texas...)
Thanks!
On the power supply front, here's the recipe for powering this thing from a 21Vac to 26Vac **AC output** wall wart:
Ingredients:
1 - 21.0 to 26V AC output wall wart. At least 200ma rated
1 - 1N4004 through 1N4007 diode
1 - 220uF 50V minimum, 63V preferred, 100V is fine, to taste; electro cap
1 - AC input jack to match the wart
Prep and install the input jack in the selected box. Connect the 1N400x diode with anode/arrow end to pin 1 of the console board, this being the contact that used to go the the transformer center tap in the original. Connect the cathode/bar of this diode to either contact 2 or 3, or both if you like. Connect the (+) lead of the 220uF cap to this same position, leaving the (-) end free for the moment. Finally, connect one incoming AC lead from the wall wart jack to the contact 1 (where the diode anode is) and the other transformer lead to the free (-) end of the 220uF capacitor.
The added capacitor/diode and transformer connection form a voltage doubler with the pre-existing diodes and C11, and pump C11 up to about 45-70Vdc, depending on the transformer, load, and phase of the moon. This should be sufficient to get 33-35Vdc out on contact 17 of the console board.
Test carefully for done-ness and serve with a hot single coil strat on a plate of 4x12 Marshalls.
yeeee haaaw works!!
:icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
we're getting closer...check the other thread too bro...do u need voltages from the caps etc too?
QuoteTest carefully for done-ness and serve with a hot single coil strat on a plate of 4x12 Marshalls.
And don't be shy with the fuzzy entree!!
QuoteActually, I guess if you measured the DC across R22, it would tell us the actual DC current used by the whole thing. That's really maximal icing on the cake if you can do that.
If you need it, it can be done. Let me know.
Quote from: digi2t on June 10, 2011, 10:55:45 PM
If you need it, it can be done. Let me know.
Yes, please.
After 1 minute to stabilise, 46.0 vdc before R22, and exactly 34.0 vdc on the other side of R22.
Umm, you did want volts, and not amps? Just thought I'd check, since the measuring setup is different.
Quote from: digi2t on June 11, 2011, 08:41:50 AM
After 1 minute to stabilise, 46.0 vdc before R22, and exactly 34.0 vdc on the other side of R22.
Umm, you did want volts, and not amps? Just thought I'd check, since the measuring setup is different.
Yep, I wanted volts. Well, I wanted amps, but I framed it as the voltage across the 100 ohm resistor, which tells me a few other things at the same time.
Your circuit is pulling (46V - 34V)/100 ohms = 120ma, within the tolerance of the readings and resistor. That's more than I had thought it would, and it means I need to look at the power supply again.
Given the new bit about the current being 120ma more or less, there are some caveats on the power supply.
I'm thinking that the voltage regulator, Q6, may be a darlington, or else it may be quite hot in normal operation. There's not much base drive through that 3.3K resistor for it, and that would make it get relatively hot. The simulated power is about 1/2W steady state, which is conceivable for a TO-92, but HOT. A TI darlington in a TO-92 in that position would be much more reliable.
I guess it could be running saturated, in which case it's not doing any good for regulating and filtering. I guess that would account for the hum issues reported. Just guessing.
Well, Q6 is listed as a 43121, which led me to this in my research;
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets2/40/407167_1.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets2/40/407167_1.pdf)
Looking at the numbers, wadda ya tink? Maybe bolt a heatsink to it as insurance?
Quote from: digi2t on June 11, 2011, 10:34:38 AM
Well, Q6 is listed as a 43121, which led me to this in my research;
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets2/40/407167_1.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets2/40/407167_1.pdf)
Looking at the numbers, wadda ya tink? Maybe bolt a heatsink to it as insurance?
That might work, although the gain is really low. And I didn't find any easily available.
I personally would use the TIP112G darlington. $0.77 at Mouser, in stock. This should not need a heat sink, as it can get rid of 2W without a sink.
I'm being belt-and-suspenders on this one. None of the pictures posted show Q6, but the board drawings show it as a TO-92. A TO-92 ...might... live there, but it's a crap shoot as to whether it will last. That one thing may account for Jimi's hum problems, because a shorted Q6 would still let the thing work, but let lots of hum through.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....i really haven't messed with the top board....if that's the power supply filter for the whole unit, i guess that could explain stuff.
there IS a hell of a ripple. would that explain why touching the case of the fall board c1 buzzes so crazy? is the darlington you talk about something i SHOULD replace? should i order one now, or wait till you guys figure that out? i am but an egg. :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 11, 2011, 11:21:36 AM
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....i really haven't messed with the top board....if that's the power supply filter for the whole unit, i guess that could explain stuff.
there IS a hell of a ripple. would that explain why touching the case of the fall board c1 buzzes so crazy? is the darlington you talk about something i SHOULD replace? should i order one now, or wait till you guys figure that out? i am but an egg. :icon_biggrin:
C11 and C8 on the top board is indeed the power supply for the whole unit. The way this works is that the transformer AC is rectified to DC by the diodes on positions 2 and 3, and filtered by C11. That ripple-y DC is smoothed by Q6, the zener diode, and C8. Removing the ripple requires that Q6 be alive and active. If it gets shorted or overloaded, the ripple from C11 comes right through. Q6 will get hot in normal operation, by the info I have now. So it's conceivable that it would fail and let the ripple through.
It's a theory.
You replaced C11 and C8, as I remember. That would help, but Q6 needs to be there.
You probably ought to wait until we have more info if you can stand it. It is possible to measure the pertinent things by measuring Q6's pads from the copper side of the top PCB, but I don't know how hard it is to get at the back of the top PCB.
The "touch C1 and it buzzes" thing makes me think there's a ground wire off somewhere. Again, if I were you, I'd leave it until we have more info.
k. it would be nice to be able to drive this into some distorted tubes rather than have to run it into a clean amp and add distortion before it.
i did replace all the caps...it was difficult. the fall board was easy to just disconnect, but the control board is a b*tch to get at...i worked AROUND the wires and components rather than discombobulating everything when i did the cap job. the hum came back of course, but not as bad as before. i am suspecting that you're right, of course, and that from your explanations that it is indeed q6 that is shorted. later on, would it be helpful if i bit the bullet and took some voltage readings from it?
i'm thinking maybe it would be better on the work/soundalike (face it, a strict clone of this thing will be cosemetically impossible anyways) to add a couple more stages of filtering,
a true bypass rather than the buffered one it appears to have now, and maybe make a couple of the trimmers that control the formants and pedal range made external for tweaking goodness...also, going with standard rotary pots will make it easier to build, take up less turf, and in general be less crap to break or try to source.
just thinking on my feet, waiting for the drip drip drip of the coffee maker to finish so i can boot up some beans to pin the eyelids open... :icon_cool:
this is the darlington rg is talking about here:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ON-Semiconductor/TIP112G/?qs=xZq1yRCsb1ed56l%2fx2MUpw%3d%3d#AB
it's got me thinking....i was working on my bassist's music man rd100 amp head recently, should have been an easy fix...all i had to do was loosen up the main pcb to tighten down the jack for the reverb footswitch...pia on that amp, requires way more dissassembly than it should...
but when we put it together, it suddenly had a HUGE hum, tho it would work, and one tube's bias went nuts...within a couple seconds, one tube's plates would start to glow crazy red. :icon_eek:
i've been messing with tube amps for years, never met one i couldn't figure out....but this one had me stumped. all the voltages on the tube seemed insanely off, and the supplys seemed ok...it was just with one tube socket, switching tubes resulted in the same...but there WAS some kind of solid state regulator (i assumed) that looked similar to this darlington on the tube, and one was mounted directly to the chassism the bad socket was missing one of the insulators....i tried to use another, but no dice, the other somewhat isolated with nylon washers... ???
:icon_idea:
not to hijack this thread anymore than i have, but now i suspect i know what the problem in the amp is...i bet it's a shorted regulator in the bias supply on that socket.
:icon_eek: :icon_redface:
thanks r.g.....i learn more stuff from every single post you make than anyone else i've ever talked to. :icon_cool:
ya'll say yeeeeeeeeeee haw in texas....here in ct we say "righteous". ;D
thanks bud! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 11, 2011, 11:37:09 AM
i am suspecting that you're right, of course, and that from your explanations that it is indeed q6 that is shorted. later on, would it be helpful if i bit the bullet and took some voltage readings from it?
If and when you get the motivation to go get at the console board, you can do the necessary voltage readings from the solder side. The big thing would be to measure the voltage between the collector of Q6 and its emitter. If that's zero, it's shorted. If it's less than about 0.5V, it's saturated and is letting ripple get through. It needs a minimum of a couple of volts across it to be able to work out the ripple on the collector and make the emitter quiet.
Quotei'm thinking maybe it would be better on the work/soundalike (face it, a strict clone of this thing will be cosemetically impossible anyways) to add a couple more stages of filtering,
Maybe. In the simulator, with about five volts of ripple at the Q6 collector, the ripple at Q6 emitter is under 10 millivolts, which is pretty good for such a simple circuit.
There may be lower-cost (in terms of rip-up and re-do) ways. Making C11 be 220uF or 470uF would cut the incoming ripple to half and 1/5th roughly. Changing to a darlington device for Q6 ups the effective ripple rejection of the transistor so much that simulations show ripple under 2mV. Simulations are **always** suspect until tested in the real world, but this matches what my gut tells me. So changing out Q6 and C11 may make a difference. And it will be so good that a fancier regulator might not offer any significant improvement.
Quote
a true bypass rather than the buffered one it appears to have now,
I would advise a better buffer rather than going to true bypass. It could be made very good indeed with all the power available in this box. A dual opamp running from a 24V three-terminal regulator would give you very clean buffering and lots of room for big signals without distortion. Kind of a "make the world safe for the Ludwig" circuit.
True bypass is a solution for limited problem we had forty years ago. There are better answers that really should be considered.
Quote
and maybe make a couple of the trimmers that control the formants and pedal range made external for tweaking goodness...also, going with standard rotary pots will make it easier to build, take up less turf, and in general be less crap to break or try to source.
You could do that. I hate all the wire going off board, but it's purely a matter of choice. The pads on the PCB I did are big enough for wires to come off to external pots easily enough.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 11, 2011, 12:32:02 PM
found this looking for subs for that regulator (q6) on the control board...i have ZERO understanding of this stuff, so forgive me if it's a dead end...
http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/TIP110-D.PDF
It'll work fine. I only recommended the TIP112 because Mouser has them a dime cheaper than the other NPNs in the series. Any of the NPNs in that group will be fine.
i will open her up this evening, and have at the circuit board to see what's up. if it's shorted or saturating, obviously i'll replace it.
i may just say screw it and fly to the parts store this morning to get the regulator you reccomend, and a 470mf 100v cap now, so i have them on hand in case it is shorted.
i would LOVE to have this thing be quiet enough to run it into a dirty amp, and am concerned about the leaking component damaging something else.
if a 470mf cap would kill the ripple that much, to me it seems a no-brainer!!!
please note tho: i HAVE been accused of having no brain, so.................... :icon_eek:
I also suspect a grounding problem in your unit. Just a guess.
It might save you a trip if you could bear to open it up and test voltages first, then leave it open overnight.
i can definitely do that if i have to.
i am having a prob anyways...i know they sell a proper or at least compatible part at cnc here, but no idea which of these may be the proper match...any chance you could help a bruddah that's completely confused out and try to tell me an nte part # please?
this is the page i get for "compatible" replacements, but i can't tell which is right or wrong with my limited knowledge.
http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf/69d5aa3584d015ce85256e780056e56f?CreateDocument
it looks like the nte 160 is the one i want, but it doesn't seem to be right to me, and why use expensive germanium if not necessary for tone?
or am i wrong?
here's the cross ref part finder i'm forced to use for the local stuff i buy:
http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf/$$Search?openForm
i have to go visit my girlfriend, she's in the hospital again...long story you don't wanna know about.
if i can hit the part store before it closes, IF i get the regulator, whether i need it or not, at least i have it on hand to make the repair...and if not needed, well, there's always room in the junkbox for another component. i definitely wanna replace that filter with a bigger cap anyways, one way or the other, i need to get that ripple quieter.
thanks r.g., i reallllllllly appreciate the help!!!!
:D
will this work?
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/200to299/pdf/nte261.pdf
Silicon Complementary Transistors
Darlington Power Amplifier
Description:
The NTE261 (NPN) and NTE262 (PNP) are complementary silicon Darlington power transistors in
a TO220 type package designed for general purpose amplifier and low–speed switching applications.
Features:
High DC Current Gain: hFE = 2500 Typ @ IC = 4A
Collector–Emitter Sustaining Voltage: VCEO(sus) = 100V Min @ 100mA
Low Collector–Emitter Saturation Voltage:
VCE(sat) = 2V Max @ IC = 3A
= 4V Max @ IC = 5A
Monolithic Construction with Built–In Base–Emitter Shunt Resistor
Absolute Maximum Ratings:
Collector–Emitter Voltage, VCEO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 100V
Collector–Base Voltage, VCB . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 100V
Emitter–Base Voltage, VEB . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5V
Collector Current, IC
Continuous . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5A
Peak . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8A
Base Current, IB . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 120mA
Total Power Dissipation (TC = +25°C), PD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 65W
Derate Above 25°C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.52W/°C
Total Power Dissipation (TA = +25°C), PD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2W
Derate Above 25°C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.016W/°C
Unclamped Inductive Load Energy (Note 1), E . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50mJ
Operating Junction Temperature range, TJ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . –65° to +150°C
Storage Temperature Range, Tstg . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . –65° to +150°C
Thermal Resistance, Junction–to–Case, RthJC . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.92°C/W
Thermal Resistance, Junction–to–Ambient, RthJA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 62.5°C/W
Note 1. IC = 1A, L = 100mH, P.R.F. = 10Hz, VCC = 20V, RBE = 100Ω.
Electrical Characteristics: (TC = +25°C unless otherwise specified)
Parameter Symbol Test Conditions Min Typ Max Unit
OFF Characteristics
Collector–Emitter Sustaining Voltage VCEO(sus) IC = 100mA, IB = 0, Note 2 100 – – V
Collector Cutoff Current ICEO VCE = 50V, IB = 0 – – 0.5 mA
ICBO VCB = 100V, IE = 0 – – 0.2 mA
Emitter Cutoff Current IEBO VBE = 5V, IC = 0 – – 2.0 mA
ON Characteristics (Note 2)
DC Current Gain hFE IC = 0.5A, VCE = 3V 1000 – –
IC = 3A, VCE = 3V 1000 – –
Collector–Emitter Saturation Voltage VCE(sat) IC = 3A, IB = 12mA – – 2.0 V
IC = 5A, IB = 20mA – – 4.0 V
Base–Emitter ON Voltage VBE(on) IC = 3A, VCE = 3V – – 2.5 V
Dynamic Characteristics
Small–Signal Current Gain |hfe| IC = 3A, VCE = 4V, f = 1MHz 4.0 – –
Output Capacitance
NTE261
Cob
VCB = 10V, IE = 0, f = 0.1MHz – – 300 pF
NTE262 – – 200 pF
Note 2. Pulse Test: Pulse Width ≤ 300μs, Duty Cycle ≤ 2%.
NTE261
QuoteIf and when you get the motivation to go get at the console board, you can do the necessary voltage readings from the solder side. The big thing would be to measure the voltage between the collector of Q6 and its emitter. If that's zero, it's shorted. If it's less than about 0.5V, it's saturated and is letting ripple get through. It needs a minimum of a couple of volts across it to be able to work out the ripple on the collector and make the emitter quiet.
I measured mine, I'm getting 13.45 volts between E and C.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 11, 2011, 02:04:55 PM
will this work?
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/200to299/pdf/nte261.pdf
Silicon Complementary Transistors
Darlington Power Amplifier
Description:
The NTE261 (NPN)
Yep, that will do.
Quote from: digi2t on June 11, 2011, 03:09:54 PM
I measured mine, I'm getting 13.45 volts between E and C.
Yours is working right.
i got the nte160, couldn't get a 100 volt axial 220-470mf cap, so i'm doing the old tube-amp trick of piggybacking 3 100mf 100volt caps... since caps in parallel act like resistors in series, that should give an effective capacitance of 300mfd @ 100vdc....close enough for rocknroll to hopefully nuke that hum.
so...gonna open her up, again, and measure q6...if it looks like it's shorted, then i'll take her apart and replace the regulator when i add the caps. hopefully that will take care of the ripple causing the hum problem...if nothing else, it'll be well-filtered. if the hum doesn't go away, i guess i'll have to work thru each board a component at a time and see what i find.
while i have her open, i'll take voltage readings at all the transistors on the control board, too, so we've got them. for the sake of continuity, which thread is better to post in?
or should i post in both?
ultimately, i hope to archive all of this so all the info will be in one humongous zip file for future generations of diy'ers.
i am really honored and humbled to be a small part in this undertaking, and grateful for all i've learned since i posted the schematics i'd found. this has been one hell of an experience!! thanks r.g., dino, keppy, and everyone else who's either been driving the bus or along for the ride.
anywho, more later...
peace
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 11, 2011, 09:13:04 PM
i got the nte160, couldn't get a 100 volt axial 220-470mf cap, so i'm doing the old tube-amp trick of piggybacking 3 100mf 100volt caps... since caps in parallel act like resistors in series, that should give an effective capacitance of 300mfd @ 100vdc....close enough for rocknroll to hopefully nuke that hum.
One thing's for sure - it won't hurt!
Quoteso...gonna open her up, again, and measure q6...if it looks like it's shorted, then i'll take her apart and replace the regulator when i add the caps. hopefully that will take care of the ripple causing the hum problem...if nothing else, it'll be well-filtered. if the hum doesn't go away, i guess i'll have to work thru each board a component at a time and see what i find.
Yep.
Quotewhile i have her open, i'll take voltage readings at all the transistors on the control board, too, so we've got them. for the sake of continuity, which thread is better to post in? or should i post in both?
Whichever. I was thinking that this thread would contain more of the techie, down-in-among-the-farads stuff.
Quote
ultimately, i hope to archive all of this so all the info will be in one humongous zip file for future generations of diy'ers.
Good idea!
Quotei am really honored and humbled to be a small part in this undertaking, and grateful for all i've learned since i posted the schematics i'd found. this has been one hell of an experience!! thanks r.g., dino, keppy, and everyone else who's either been driving the bus or along for the ride.
You're welcome. I was always interested in this thing, since the schemos first came up. I decided based on the complexity that without a live unit, cloning was futile. Then you came up with a live one. That's an important part. Don't discount your contributions - it wouldn't be here without you.
ok guys, i'm inside the top....i forgot i'd soldered all the wires on, so she should be a bit more robust than i had thought.
just checked q6
readings to ground (one of the holes in the fall plate
e 35.5
b 36.0
c 44.8
between e & c 9.2
between e & b .4
between b & c 8.6
r.g., does that look about right?
gonna lurk a bit and hope you check in, measure the other trannys in the mean time.
Crap, never thought to check the other voltages across the other Q6 legs... DOAH!!
But it looks like you're getting a lot less voltage across E and C than I am.
control board transistor voltages all sliders @ min, bypass on, fx on
q1
e 33.8
b 31.2
c 35.5
q2 is oddball, it has TWO BASES
i don't know what the first terminal is, so...
? 7.2 - 4.9 keeps cycling
b1 14.4
b2 .3
q3
e 0
b .5
c 10.9 - 0 keeps cycling
q4
e 0
b .5
c 15.6 - .1 keeps cycling
q5
e 0
b .5
c 6.4 - 5.4 keeps cycling
q6
e 35.5
b 36.0
c 44.8
Quote from: digi2t on June 11, 2011, 10:23:43 PM
Crap, never thought to check the other voltages across the other Q6 legs... DOAH!!
But it looks like you're getting a lot less voltage across E and C than I am.
for real...wonder if i should just go for it and swap it out?
or wait for r.g. ?
Sorry - I had an email that had to get out, and it kept me away from the fun stuff.
Actually, with a collector-to-emitter voltage of about 9V (44.8 - 35.5), your Q6 is doing fine. It's definitely not shorted. That was the test. Also, the difference from base to emitter is about half a volt, which is what it should be. Bag the replacement, you don't need to swap it out, not on this evidence.
I was thinking that the collector and emitter would be at the same voltage, or maybe the collector half a volt higher than the emitter. That's not the case, and the transistor is all that could make the voltages be that way, so it's likely OK.
Sorry - the hum comes from somewhere else. Maybe a grounding issue.
i think i found the hum prob...the green filament ires on the control board were running parallel with the white/red stripe wire that carrys audio...seems that may be the problem.
regardless, it now has 300mf @ 100v for the power supply filtering...hopefully that will help nuke it down some.
;)
I wanted to get that last one out quick if you were still watching.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 11, 2011, 10:52:10 PM
q1
e 33.8
b 31.2
c 35.5
That's strange. The base is lower than the emitter. Any chance you swapped those readings emitter for base?
Quote
q2 is oddball, it has TWO BASES
? 7.2 - 4.9 keeps cycling
b1 14.4
b2 .3
This one *is* an oddball. It's supposed to be cycling, and it is. This is what generates the animation rate. It's OK.
Quote
q3
e 0
b .5
c 10.9 - 0 keeps cycling
q4
e 0
b .5
c 15.6 - .1 keeps cycling
Q2 drives these two to cycle. They're workign fine.
Quote
q5
e 0
b .5
c 6.4 - 5.4 keeps cycling
This one is driven by the foot pedal and the animation. If you flip the animation footswitch off, it ought to sit still and only move when the pedal moves.
Looks OK.
Quote
q6
e 35.5
b 36.0
c 44.8
And this one's OK, as I noted earlier.
Sorry if I false alarmed you. It seemed like a bad Q6 could explain stuff. It appears that this was not the case.
The added capacitance can only help, though, so it wasn't wasted. We'll track down the hum. Could be grounding, or it could be the AC lamp wiring either capacitively leaking into the circuit, or through a wiring problem.
>You posted about the filament wires as I was typing this! < 8-)
Is that schemo with the "TIP29" note on replacing Q6 from your box?
no, but i can take a pic from my box, maybe i can get a cleaner shot of the schem. i took some more gut shots, will post shortly...tried to get some good shots of the switches.
i'll check q1 again real quick i could have read it backwards...
gimme a sec..
c 35.3
b 35.3
e 33.8
the readings changed a little after adding the other caps. getting much better formants, too...but a bit more noise in the background....less hum, but a ticking. could be cuz it's dissassembled.
Q1 is what does the slow start on the animation when it's set to "slow start". I suspect that if that control is working, so is Q1.
Good to hear the hum and formants are improved.
I just wondered about that "q6/TIP29" note. No biggie.
well..... some things are better...kinda.
just boxed it back up.
this thing is p***ing me off!
the FORMANTS are ABSOLUTELY working better.
but now the hum is back, and about an octave higher. and cyclical. it has gotta be lead dress, it's all i can think of. i mean, they have audio, power, and all running bundled together.
it's worse now than it was, unbelievable!! gonna try and open her up again, and see if i can play with it a little, but this thing is a bit beyond me, i think. wondering if changing the capacitance changed all the trimmers slightly or something...???
i didn't change anything on the fall board, but it sounds like i did....all i can think of is maybe i gotta play with the trimmers again or something.
ok...i opened it back up and messed with it some. tomorrow, i may open the top again, but starting to think i may as well leave well enough alone.
it's still acting kinda funky and noisy, but i think i can live with it.
one thing i DID find that helped nuke most of the hum is that r76 on the fall board, a 33k resistor, was reading open. it's supposed to connect the - side of c1 to ground.
so i replaced it with 27k, closest thing i had. didn't make a lick of difference.
however...grounding the negative side of c1 directly nuked 90% of the hum. weird, or what?
outside of some background noise and a little ticking tho, i think i can live with it...i have it dialed in where it pretty much has the yoy yoy yiy yiy yay yay thing down.
close enough for rock n roll for me!! ;)
g'nite folks...peace and sweet dreams! :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 12, 2011, 01:29:58 AM
one thing i DID find that helped nuke most of the hum is that r76 on the fall board, a 33k resistor, was reading open. it's supposed to connect the - side of c1 to ground.
Is that the same capacitor you kept replacing earlier, the one you had to overrate the voltage on? Is this maybe a related issue?
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 12, 2011, 01:29:58 AM
one thing i DID find that helped nuke most of the hum is that r76 on the fall board, a 33k resistor, was reading open. it's supposed to connect the - side of c1 to ground.
so i replaced it with 27k, closest thing i had. didn't make a lick of difference.
however...grounding the negative side of c1 directly nuked 90% of the hum. weird, or what?
R76 is a pull down resistor on the outside of C1, which is the input capacitor for the low-Z input. I suspect that R76 was a late addition to the PCB, stuck there to try to combat issues with the Low-Z input. It's a very high number, and it's put in a part of the circuit electrically and physically where the other resistor numbers are low. I bet it was put in way late in the design for some reason.
And since grounding C1 kills hum, I suspect that the hum is actually getting in through the wiring from the lo-Z input to that lo-Z balance pot. It may be that the pot is picking it up, or the wiring to it is running too close to the lamp AC, or that the ground to the low-Z input isn't, or the balance pot itself is messed up. Just guessing.
Quotethis thing is p***ing me off!
Ya didn't think that this sucker was going to go down without a fight, now did ya? Jimi, bro, from the pics, your units in rough shape. Looks almost like the fall plate was underwater at some point. As a wise man told me, "Breathe, brother, breathe". :icon_mrgreen:
Does the hum go away if you disconnect the lights? Unplugging the feeder wire to the lamp resistor for example (tape the loose lead though). Hell, unplug and tape both green wires going to the motherboard for the lamps (pads 11 and 12), and try that.
Quoteone thing i DID find that helped nuke most of the hum is that r76 on the fall board, a 33k resistor, was reading open. it's supposed to connect the - side of c1 to ground.
so i replaced it with 27k, closest thing i had. didn't make a lick of difference.
Did you test directly across the resistor, or one side to a gnd. point? Maybe a cracked solder joint or trace?
Also, the input jacks are supposed to be switched to ground when not in use. Could there be a grounding problem there?
Also, Jimi, my bypass light is ON when in bypass, OFF when in effect. I believe you said that it was opposite of yours. Is this true?
hi guys.
i suspect it could be any of those things.
yes, keppy, that's the same one. at this point, it's a 10mf@250 volts!!!
yes, dino, it WAS opposite of yours, but i wired it the way yours was when i replaced the switch. i figured that was probably correct, so i went for it.
i will try nuking the ac to the lamps later and see if the noise goes away. most of it seems cyclical, and related to the formant filter, as adjusting the speed and intensity of that seems to affect the noise as well. it DOES have a good bit of carbon comp resistor "blow"...probably better to stick to metal resistors in the builds...not only for consistency, but noise, too. i believe they used so many cc just cuz especially back then, they were much cheaper.
i may be being hypercritical from too much caffiene, tiredness, and headphone ear. i suspect it will sound quieter thru the amp.
i'm still picking up sone cyclical noise...it was more noticeable cuz i was wearing headphones into a cranked v-amp. but the hum seems nuked.
i think r.g. was right, i think that r76 was a REAL late addition. here's the thing. replaced it with a 27k rather than the 33k just cuz it was what i had on hand. grounding one end of the 27 k resistor worked...until i soldered it in place! i tried to take the as yet uncut lead of the resistor that was going to the ground side and connect that to ground, and it made absolutlely no difference. i had to take the " hot" side of the resistor, literally directly off the "cold" side of the cap, and go directly to the same ground as the hi z jack. no more hum. so my question to you guys is this...how the hell can the input to the effect work if the audio path is being run directly to ground? it should be the same as turning down the volume on your guitar, right???
weird, or what?
that seems to me that "ground" is hot, and not at ground potential AT ALL. bad transformer, maybe? also considering adding a modern "3 prong" grounded power cord.
i'll wait on that tho to see what shakes out.
beginning to seriously consider modification, using shielded wire from all audio on the fall board to the console board, and twisted pair multicore bundled wire to replace all the rest. shielded to/from jacks, switches, pots, anything that carries audio. and "telescoping" the grounds with that, maybe moving everything to a single ground buss wire for the whole unit.
of course, it may be over kill, and possibly not worth it...the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
;)
a couple other things i've noticed is that the fuzz has more balls than it did. alot more.
and it's almost unity now with the wah/formant when switched in and out, where before it was weaker and slightly below unity.
the whole pedal now is louder...i can crank the output balance full now, and still get a tiny boost when i kick in the effect.
the big thing is, once ya dial it in, being able to walk away...the truth is, these things are as much fun to tweak as they are to play thru!! ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 12, 2011, 10:49:52 AM
i think r.g. was right, i think that r76 was a REAL late addition. here's the thing. replaced it with a 27k rather than the 33k just cuz it was what i had on hand. grounding one end of the 27 k resistor worked...until i soldered it in place! i tried to take the as yet uncut lead of the resistor that was going to the ground side and connect that to ground, and it made absolutlely no difference. i had to take the " hot" side of the resistor, literally directly off the "cold" side of the cap, and go directly to the same ground as the hi z jack. no more hum. so my question to you guys is this...how the hell can the input to the effect work if the audio path is being run directly to ground? it should be the same as turning down the volume on your guitar, right???
weird, or what?
that seems to me that "ground" is hot, and not at ground potential AT ALL.
I think you're hot on the trail of what's wrong. At this point, you *know* that one of the "grounds" on the PCB is not connected to ground, right? When that happens to me, I get out my meter, set it to low ohms, and start probing all the ground points, because they all have to have zero ohms to each other right? And we know that the wiring in this thing is - well, less than the very best.
So if it were me, I'd hook my ohmmeter black wire to the ground of the input jack, then start probing ground locations on the wires of the board. They all have to connect, 100%, or it won't work well. I bet you find at least one wire that doesn't have good connections. Probe between the jack grounds, too.
A wire can well be broken inside the insulation. You're trying to verify whether the *wires* actually connect electrically, not by how they look.
thanks r.g., that is something i DID not know. i will do so later on indeed. and check the top board too, while i'm at it. it's only 6 screws, i have my notebook back with all my drawings, so i'm not as wussy about it as i was.
i suspect already the bad ground is gonna be ground point 23 on the fall board. that's the one that had broken on me.
but here's the thing...what the heck do i do if i check all the points, and everything comes up aces? do i start checking for continuity between all the wires from the fall board to the console board?
finally, should i use the continuity checker of my meter, or set it on the lowest resistance scale? does it matter? on my meter it shows a resistance if it's a few ohms, and also if there is voltage present.
thanks bro. peace.
If I'm not mistaken, the grounding for the motherboard comes down from the console board. Black wire number 3, is jumpped from the transfo gnd (console points 1 and 4), and the black wire in the harness brings gnd down to the motherboard. Motherboard pad 10 is the gnd connection point being fed gnd from the console, then the gnd is distributed to pads 1, 13, 14, 22, and 23, which feed jack, switches, etc. down below.
Like R.G. said, multimeter continuity check time. Go through your grounds. We've got complete drawings now, so search and destroy bro.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 12, 2011, 11:07:03 AM
thanks r.g., that is something i DID not know. i will do so later on indeed. and check the top board too, while i'm at it. it's only 6 screws, i have my notebook back with all my drawings, so i'm not as wussy about it as i was.
With the experience you're gaining, you're learning that you can cope with more. That which does not kill us, and all that.
Quotei suspect already the bad ground is gonna be ground point 23 on the fall board. that's the one that had broken on me.
Always good to look where there's been problems before!
Quotebut here's the thing...what the heck do i do if i check all the points, and everything comes up aces? do i start checking for continuity between all the wires from the fall board to the console board?
Yep. That's the thing about ground - all, completely, every one, 100% have to be connected. It's also possible that there is a crack in the traces on the PCB. Not a big deal, as that's what solder and wire is for. It's just a PITA to find where to solder. But the meter will tell you. If two places which are supposed to be ground are not connected, one or both of them have a wiring problem. And printed circuit traces are just that - wiring.
So yes, test all the way up into the console board.
If the external wires check out, it just means that you're going to have to do the same thing, looking for ground connections, to each part that shows connection to ground on the schematic. Again, a PITA, but no big technical issue, just work.
Quotefinally, should i use the continuity checker of my meter, or set it on the lowest resistance scale? does it matter? on my meter it shows a resistance if it's a few ohms, and also if there is voltage present.
Do all your resistance testing with voltage off. And use the lowest ohms scale, as some continuity/beeper circuits detect continuity on low ohms. Finally, develop the habit of between every few tests touching your meter probes together to see if that still shows zero ohms. Some meters drift, too. Ask me how I found out about that one... :icon_lol:
If you find resistances over maybe 5 ohms between any two points, be very suspicious of that path. Below 5 ohms, it may be real or it may be your meter, as most common meters can't read low ohms very well.
Quote from: R.G. on June 11, 2011, 09:28:31 AM
Quote from: digi2t on June 11, 2011, 08:41:50 AM
After 1 minute to stabilise, 46.0 vdc before R22, and exactly 34.0 vdc on the other side of R22.
Umm, you did want volts, and not amps? Just thought I'd check, since the measuring setup is different.
Yep, I wanted volts. Well, I wanted amps, but I framed it as the voltage across the 100 ohm resistor, which tells me a few other things at the same time.
Your circuit is pulling (46V - 34V)/100 ohms = 120ma, within the tolerance of the readings and resistor. That's more than I had thought it would, and it means I need to look at the power supply again.
How about just using a 48v supply? Mouser has many available, like this one:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Phihong/PSAA20R-480-R/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtpkqKkT5w3uiFtS68PTvw5CiLqbbUof8k%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Phihong/PSAA20R-480-R/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtpkqKkT5w3uiFtS68PTvw5CiLqbbUof8k%3d)
or one of these:
http://www.mouser.com/Power/Plug-In-AC-Adapters/_/N-wp53?P=1z0wcnfZ1z0wd7tZ1z0k0c0Z1yztv3bZ1z0j9g6&Ns=Pricing%7C0 (http://www.mouser.com/Power/Plug-In-AC-Adapters/_/N-wp53?P=1z0wcnfZ1z0wd7tZ1z0k0c0Z1yztv3bZ1z0j9g6&Ns=Pricing%7C0)
Jimi and Dino's units are seeing close to 48v at the Q6 collector anyway, so it seems like a 48v DC supply would be easiest, and only a few bucks more than the 24v AC supply you posted earlier.
If you still think a doubler is the way to go, the top two 24v AC adapters here are in stock at Mouser, cheap, and appear to have power to spare. No idea what kind of output cable they need, though, as they do not appear to have one...
http://www.mouser.com/Power/Plug-In-AC-Adapters/_/N-wp53?P=1z0wblf (http://www.mouser.com/Power/Plug-In-AC-Adapters/_/N-wp53?P=1z0wblf)
Quote from: Keppy on June 12, 2011, 06:32:44 PM
How about just using a 48v supply?
That'll probably be fine.
It's a switching type, so you may need to filter it more in case it makes whining noises in the audio. But it may not. Only one way to tell.
Quote from: R.G. on June 12, 2011, 07:18:57 PM
Quote from: Keppy on June 12, 2011, 06:32:44 PM
How about just using a 48v supply?
That'll probably be fine.
It's a switching type, so you may need to filter it more in case it makes whining noises in the audio. But it may not. Only one way to tell.
You mean more than the filtering in the current Phase II circuit? i assumed the caps removing the AC ripple would be plenty for this. Am I (likely) wrong?
i bet it is a switching supply in the phase II as there's alot of background whining...it's faint, but there.
that said, i tried to match up the transistors, and find either them or equivalents. i had some luck, but not sure if i got them right...so you guys will have to check and see if
this stuff makes any sense, or is useful...if it is, cool, if not, i apologize for wasting time...been surfing all day in some cases trying to find parts.
here's what i came up with...the motorola part numbers i found in pdf's of ev products!! ;)
these are the NTE equivalents i came up with...i may have made some mistakes. i found part #'s here where i could...
http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43040.shtml
the first number is as marked on the ludwig schematic...
the second is what the actual part is...to the best of my ability.
the third is the NTE equivalent...many can probably be found at mouser or allied for less tho.
finally, pdf's of each component so you much more knowledgable guys can see if the parts look right.
i really hope this helps!!! ;)
if not, hey, i still learned something either way, so it's all good!! :icon_mrgreen:
43045 = 2SC3206 = NTE399
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/300to399/pdf/nte399.pdf
43121= 2SC3298B = 2N2667 = NTE229
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/200to299/pdf/nte229.pdf
2n2546 = NTE2546
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/2500to2599/pdf/nte2545.pdf
43054 = 2SC3212A = NTE199
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/100to199/pdf/nte199.pdf
43173 = 2SC3330 = NTE2361
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/2300to2399/pdf/nte2361.pdf
43174 = 2SC3331 = NTE293
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/200to299/pdf/nte293.pdf
43175 = 2SC3332 = NTE460
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/400to499/pdf/nte460.pdf
43176 = 2SC3333 = NTE399
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/300to399/pdf/nte399.pdf
ooops...hit quote instead of modify!!! se4002 is also another number for the 43045 transistor...
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/100to199/pdf/nte123ap.pdf
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 12, 2011, 08:10:14 PM
i bet it is a switching supply in the phase II as there's alot of background whining...it's faint, but there.
that said, i tried to match up the transistors, and find either them or equivalents. i had some luck, but not sure if i got them right...so you guys will have to check and see if
this stuff makes any sense, or is useful...if it is, cool, if not, i apologize for wasting time...been surfing all day in some cases trying to find parts.
here's what i came up with...the motorola part numbers i found in pdf's of ev products!! ;)
these are the NTE equivalents i came up with...i may have made some mistakes. i found part #'s here where i could...
http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43040.shtml
the first number is as marked on the ludwig schematic...
the second is what the actual part is...to the best of my ability.
the third is the NTE equivalent...many can probably be found at mouser or allied for less tho.
finally, pdf's of each component so you much more knowledgable guys can see if the parts look right.
i really hope this helps!!! ;)
if not, hey, i still learned something either way, so it's all good!! :icon_mrgreen:
43045 = 2SC3206 = SE4002 = NTE399
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/300to399/pdf/nte399.pdf
43121= 2SC3298B = 2N2667 = NTE229
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/200to299/pdf/nte229.pdf
2n2546 = NTE2546
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/2500to2599/pdf/nte2545.pdf
43054 = 2SC3212A = NTE199
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/100to199/pdf/nte199.pdf
43173 = 2SC3330 = NTE2361
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/2300to2399/pdf/nte2361.pdf
43174 = 2SC3331 = NTE293
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/200to299/pdf/nte293.pdf
43175 = 2SC3332 = NTE460
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/400to499/pdf/nte460.pdf
43176 = 2SC3333 = NTE399
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/300to399/pdf/nte399.pdf
Those look like the same parts I proposed a few weeks ago, which R.G. deemed false matches. I'm inclined to believe him, both because of the logic he presented and because I later looked up a number attached to the diodes in the console board, which matched on that site to a transistor.
Here's the link to that post:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=91498.msg786053#msg786053 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=91498.msg786053#msg786053)
You say you found the matches in EV's literature, though? Do you have those links?
i found some here in this pdf:
http://www.pa-anlagen.ch/Manuals/Electro_Voice/Amplifiers/Service%2520Manual/EV%201244X%20Service%20Manual.pdf
Quote from: Keppy on June 12, 2011, 07:30:25 PM
You mean more than the filtering in the current Phase II circuit? i assumed the caps removing the AC ripple would be plenty for this. Am I (likely) wrong?
Well, different filtering. The filtering on the DC supply in the P2 is intended specifically for 120Hz ripple, and so are the diodes. At high frequencies, electrolytic capacitors quit looking like capacitors and begin behaving like inductors. That's where all this business of bypassing electrolytic caps with small ceramic caps comes from.
At high frequencies, the diodes can't turn on and off fast enough, and can emit little squawks of RF trying to do so. However, it's possible that the existing regulator could be added to/fortified to make it small enough to be negligible. In either case, it would be interesting technical work. And it may work without it. I just don't know that, and can see some pitfalls based on past issues. It may be fine.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 12, 2011, 08:10:14 PM
i bet it is a switching supply in the phase II as there's alot of background whining...it's faint, but there.
I suspect it's something else, perhaps the filters with a bit of oscillation. The power supply in the P2 is not a switching type according to the schematics.
Quotethat said, i tried to match up the transistors, and find either them or equivalents. i had some luck, but not sure if i got them right...so you guys will have to check and see if this stuff makes any sense, or is useful...if it is, cool, if not, i apologize for wasting time...been surfing all day in some cases trying to find parts.
I tried that, based on Keppy's earlier research. Once I'd hunted through to the end of the chain, the end device didn't look like what was actually on the board pictures, and did not match what I thought should be there based on the circuits. And on top of that, for the time when this thing was manufactured, EV and likely Ludwig would not have been using Japanese (2SC/2SA prefix) devices, and Moto would not have been making them. They'd be 2N prefixes.
Not that these could not work - it just seems unlikely. In the case of some of them, they're power devices in too-large plastic cases. The NTE261 *is* a nice one for Q6, based on the specifications, but we've already figured out that your Q6 is working fine.
Buying these from NTE will be quite expensive. I really think that 2N5551 at $0.04 each from Mouser will do most of it. It's a guess.
cool, just trying to find stuff. ;)
thanks for the other info! :thu:
Quote from: R.G. on June 12, 2011, 08:46:18 PM
At high frequencies, electrolytic capacitors quit looking like capacitors and begin behaving like inductors. That's where all this business of bypassing electrolytic caps with small ceramic caps comes from.
I assumed that was what C7 was for. Do I need to put another small value cap somewhere on the emitter side of Q6?
Quote from: R.G. on June 12, 2011, 08:46:18 PM
At high frequencies, the diodes can't turn on and off fast enough, and can emit little squawks of RF trying to do so.
I was only going to use the diodes (well, one of them) for the tiny voltage drop it would give me. Should I bypass them? I'm unclear as to the impact of RF on an audio signal/circuit, outside of the AM radio station I pick up when I'm breadboarding. ::)
Many circuits I've seen use a large/small cap arrangement to filter the power supply, with values similar to C7, C8, C11. The OCD, for example, uses nearly the same values in a 3-cap filter arrangement, except the small cap is 100nF instead of 10nF. What I'm trying to say is, the filtering on the Phase II is so similar to what I've seen on other high-gain circuits (in my tiny experience :-\) that I'm not aware of what problems could arise in this design.
I feel a geofex article link coming on... ;D
guys, (dino especially) do you think this will make an acceptable replacement for the fuzz repeat slider?
http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/pta.pdf
i'm looking specifically at pda1543....seems like the dimensions should be close enough for rocknroll...
thanks!
One of the things I considered when doing the PCB layout was laying out a controls PCB with just the slide pots and switches on it. I discarded that because re-making the original front panel is not likely to be something a cloner would do. But it should be possible to re-fit that whole panel, perhaps minus the light show on the switches, with a PCB that holds slider pots and rocker switches, and perhaps some LEDs to take the place of the indicators.
The big deal with linear pots is always how they get mounted. They absolutely have to match up with slots in the panel for the slide knobs in both length and position. It can be challenging. A real friend in figuring this out is a set of dial calipers or digital calipers like from Harbor freight. This lets you measure slot width and length, as well as slot-to-slot position accurately.
wellp, i gotta go by harbor frieght anyways...lol ;)
the tough thing for me is that all the damn measurements are in millimeters, and i just plain can't seem to get the conversion down!!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 13, 2011, 11:05:53 AM
the tough thing for me is that all the damn measurements are in millimeters, and i just plain can't seem to get the conversion down!!
It takes a long time to get that working. I keep a calculator on my desk. There are 25.4 millimeters per inch, so to make inches out of a millimeter measurement, divide millimeters by 25.4. To get millimeters when you have inches, *multiply* by 25.4. All you have to have is (a) a calculator to do the arithmetic and (b) remember one inch is 25.4 millimeters.
Of course, the digital calipers flip between inches and millimeters with a button the front. That helps, too!
Hey Jimi,
I'm at work right now, but I've printed the page, and I'll check the dimensions tonight. I think the one with 45mm of travel should do it, I seem to recall that the original had 50mm. 2.5mm less travel at either end souldn't be a problem. I just need to check if you'll have enough meat at the end of the slots to drill for the mounting screws. If so, you can drill and chamfer two holes in the chassis under the face plate, and use M2 X 3mm flathead socket cap screws. The face plate will cover up the works.
On a different note, can across this; http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/3048.pdf (http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/3048.pdf). That would make a neat pedal pot, if one had the room.
Get that to ya tonight bro.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 13, 2011, 11:05:53 AM
the tough thing for me is that all the damn measurements are in millimeters, and i just plain can't seem to get the conversion down!!
You can just
work in metric. Get a good cm/mm ruler & calipers like RG described.
Not having to convert measurements saves time. ;)
Yup, many hardware stores sell cheap digital verniers. I've got a 6" digital, that i picked up for 10 bux. It's real handy, just a touch of a button, and you can switch between inch or metric.
I've seen them as cheap as 8 bux around here. Probably find one real cheap on EBay.
i'm gonna head out as soon as the vertigo clears enough to drive (meniere's disease. wear earplugs if ya play loud, please!!!) and hit harbor frieght.
should be able to get some for about 10 bux.
still haven't had a chance yet to go chasing grounds, maybe i will tonite tho. peace!
:icon_biggrin:
i got some digital calipers, so will check it out tonite. got parts for another overdrive pedal i built and gave away, a little 1 knobber 386 that uses just about nothing...i should just be able to squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze it onto my secondary pedalboard..
Quote from: Keppy on June 13, 2011, 12:06:14 AM
Quote from: R.G. on June 12, 2011, 08:46:18 PM
At high frequencies, electrolytic capacitors quit looking like capacitors and begin behaving like inductors. That's where all this business of bypassing electrolytic caps with small ceramic caps comes from.
I assumed that was what C7 was for. Do I need to put another small value cap somewhere on the emitter side of Q6?
Quote from: R.G. on June 12, 2011, 08:46:18 PM
At high frequencies, the diodes can't turn on and off fast enough, and can emit little squawks of RF trying to do so.
I was only going to use the diodes (well, one of them) for the tiny voltage drop it would give me. Should I bypass them? I'm unclear as to the impact of RF on an audio signal/circuit, outside of the AM radio station I pick up when I'm breadboarding. ::)
Many circuits I've seen use a large/small cap arrangement to filter the power supply, with values similar to C7, C8, C11. The OCD, for example, uses nearly the same values in a 3-cap filter arrangement, except the small cap is 100nF instead of 10nF. What I'm trying to say is, the filtering on the Phase II is so similar to what I've seen on other high-gain circuits (in my tiny experience :-\) that I'm not aware of what problems could arise in this design.
I feel a geofex article link coming on... ;D
I was tired when I wrote this. I meant the
collector side of Q6.
OK, a quick gander at my unit vis-a-vis the slide pot you're eyeing. The screw thing won't work because the slot on the unit is longer than the distance between screw holes on the pot. It MIGHT fit between the face and backplane though, but it might be really tight. I measured aprox. 6mm of space between the two, and the pot is listed as 5.5mm thickness. Then, I'm not sure where the connection points on the pot may end up, where the aluminium backplane is concerned. It's a tough call. I looked around today, and I could only find 45mm travel pots. The original is 50mm, which is aprox. 2", so you won't have to mess with the slot. Just mounting it will be a bit tricky.
If you can get one on the cheap, especially a thinner one which you could shim in there, I would try it.
OK... another option for the slider pot replacement.
Screw all of them. Change them all out for 60mm travel pots. Just stretch out the slots a bit, and mount them using screws, as I previously mentioned. You'll have enough meat at the ends of the slots for the screws that way.
I don't have the unit in front of me, but I believe that aluminium plate inside serves only to hold the slider pots. If you can ditch it, go with 3 new pots i.e. PTA6043.
I know it's a bitch to ditch/mod original parts. I love to keep things stock if I can, but finding a hen's tooth is bad enough. Trying to find the filling is a whole other game brother!
On another front, I've started to layout a vero version of the Colorsound Vocalizer. Just ordered the IC's, and 22K dual gang pot (that sucka was pricey, coming from England!). Just need to find an old wah to gut now.
As you can all see, I like to keep my plate full.... :icon_eek:
Quote from: Keppy on June 13, 2011, 03:54:38 PM
I was tired when I wrote this. I meant the collector side of Q6.
No biggie. A 0.1uF monolithic ceramic on *both* collector and emitter would not be amiss, with either the stock or an external switching power supply.
hi guys, here's a demo of my ludwig...it's a little darker sounding than dino's....but i think you'll get an idea of some of the possibilities this thing has to offer!!
enjoy...then let's build us some!! :D
Did some more reading on formants and phonemes.
The "yoy-yoy-yoy" sound is composed of "eee-O-eee-O-eee-O..." strung together.
The all-IC approach seems to work too. I set myself the task of making it run through a whole string of vowel phonemes instead of alternating between two, so getting the formants to move exactly through the middle of the formant regions is keeping my mind busy.
Hey R.G.,
Speaking of IC's, I've just completed a vero of the Colorsound Vocalizer. I was wondering if the Ludwig would work along the same principles of the Colorsound's IC layout.
I started a thread on it here; http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92202.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92202.0)
if anyone can figure it out, it's you, r.g.!!
the counter switch seems to be the "yoyoyoyoy" switch, the vowel seems to do the others.
as i recall way back when, you could actually get it to cycle thru most of the vowel sounds. i haven't been able to tweak that in in mine yet however.
nice dino! lookin' forward to checking out that thread, and hopefully building one!! ;)
At Keppy's request, I added a second position for a TO-220 darlington transistor for Q6 on the console board. Good idea Kep! I like selective population options.
On the console/slider thing:
I also like making PCBs that make controls and switches easy. I started, then stopped, on a PCB that would take stock Bourns slider pots and e-switch switched to fake a front panel, realizing that it would only be useful on two boxes I know of, those being the ones in captivity.
However, it's almost trivially easy to do something like that, trivially as in once you know where the holes in the panel are and what parts you want to use to replace the stock ones, just do the mechanical layout for the switch/slider holes and then apply resist pen, you can re-make a control panel. It's work, and needs attention to detail, but it can be done.
R.G., don't get bent out of shape with sliders, pots, switches, etc. Personally, if one is to create his/her clone, just offboard wiring from the board would be the best option. They can create their own control scheme then. Let's keep it simple.... and compact.
Quote from: digi2t on June 15, 2011, 05:56:51 PM
R.G., don't get bent out of shape with sliders, pots, switches, etc. Personally, if one is to create his/her clone, just offboard wiring from the board would be the best option. They can create their own control scheme then. Let's keep it simple.... and compact.
Yep. That's why I stopped.
i agree too...unless we're gonna get some chinese company to clone them commercially, there's no need to try and make an exact clone.
we only need to make a work/soundalike...then figure out how to improve on it. :icon_mrgreen:
bumpage...any news, keppy? r.g.? dino?
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 17, 2011, 10:12:36 PM
bumpage...any news, keppy? r.g.? dino?
I've collected (almost) all the parts for the build, but I'm heading out of town tomorrow, so I won't start building until the end of the week sometime.
You know how you always fail to order one essential part? I'll be looking for a B5K long shaft knurled pot while I'm in KC...
QuoteYou know how you always fail to order one essential part? I'll be looking for a B5K long shaft knurled pot while I'm in KC...
Yup... kinda like forgetting the can opener when you go camping :icon_mrgreen:
It's been pretty loose on my end. Thanks to R.G., I've been investigating the principles of formant filters. Been working on the Colorsound Vocalizer in the meantime, checking out a EH Talking Pedal, and the new EH Talking Machine.
It seems that this Phase II project has sent my tone interests into a whole new dimension.
Now I just need to find a new place, where I can unpack all my gear, and get back down to business!!
cool, cool...thanks for the updates!
yah, i wish i understood a bit more about it, but rg's got my head spinning, too...trying to find a busted crybaby or volume pedal so i can get it going on that vocalizer.
my phase II i've decided i can live with at this point, so for the moment, unless someone needs me to take pics voltage readings or whatever, it's chilling.
i AM gonna use it live, too, i've decided...depending on the gig. i've gotten addicted to it!!
keppy...can't wait to see what ya come up with, cuz i'd rather build a clone to take to gigs than the real mccoy!
anyways..be well my friends, talk soon..
namaste
For added fun, when you get your parts for the colorsound, temporarily hook up individual pots to the formant filters and play with them. The combinations of the filter frequencies can hit all the human vowels, but the way the controls are hooked up on that can only hit a few of them because of the "path" the controls take. by dinking with the controls individually, you can hit them all.
i may just do that, r.g.....i just got a cheap pos pyle wah pedal on amazon shipped for like 23.90....so i figure i'll gut it, and add some pots to it, maybe a couple switches to have some "presets".
this is gonna be a blast, and a lot of fun!!
;)
Hmmm, once the different combinations are figured, would it be possible to use a rotary switch to flip between different vowels? Actually, I'm asking this question not only on my behalf, but Erik as well. New member, he's trying the build as well.
Or maybe a dual pedal setup (with ganged pots), to sweep through the vowels. :icon_surprised:
Or maybe I'm just plain nuts :icon_lol:
R.G., god damn you. Now I won't be able to sleep tonight! :icon_eek:
i'm thinking maybe measuring some pot values, and adding a remote box with a couple foot switches mounted in it that plugs into the wah wah shell
so you can switch the values and get anything ya want?
this could be VERY sick!!
:icon_evil: :icon_evil: :icon_evil:
Quote from: digi2t on June 18, 2011, 09:45:08 AM
Hmmm, once the different combinations are figured, would it be possible to use a rotary switch to flip between different vowels? Actually, I'm asking this question not only on my behalf, but Erik as well. New member, he's trying the build as well.
Yes, you can flip between vowels with a rotary. The combinations are here:http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/sing-wah/sing-wah.htm (http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/sing-wah/sing-wah.htm)
See that chart? You want to try to hit the middle of the regions, perhaps fudge them a little to taste. That was taken from a similar chart in the book "Speech Synthesis" by Bell Labs, 1963. I believe it was actually from earlier work at Bell Labs. Neat book. I've always been a little surprised that no one followed up on that chart and the info in the article with a commercial product. Although I do admit that fixed filters like the schemos suggest are a little tough to get working right... :icon_wink:
For reference:
oo = 250,800
aw = 600,800
ah = 900,1300
uh = 800,1700
ae = 900,2100
eh = 700,2500
ih = 450,2800
ee = 300,2800
er = 500,1800
where all the "=" are approximate, and guesses, but near the centers of the regions.
If you graph that, you can see, the "path" for the frequencies of the formants are non-linear for both F1 and F2. That's pretty much why the Ludwig does an alternation between only two of them, as in ee-oh-ee-oh, or other pairs depending on how you adjust the relative responses of the formant filters. The control voltages of the Ludwig are linear ramps, not able to follow the paths for hitting most of the vowel regions.
That's what I've been doing - messing with opamps, breakpoints, waveshaping, etc. to make control voltages that send a pair of filters through as many of the vowel regions as possible. I *think* I have the "outer loop" (oo-aw-ah-uh-ae-eh-ih-ee) down pretty well. I need to mess the hardware some more to be sure I have a good fit on the center and range of the filters as well as the control voltages to get a foot rocker to sweep that range. That's what I was blathering about in some of those earlier posts.
It was a tossup whether I did it with opamps or programmed a microcontroller to put out a pair of PWM'd DC control voltages. That last had the advantage that I could stick the info in a table for what vowel targets came in what order, but had some other complications. In the end I went with opamps.
QuoteOr maybe a dual pedal setup (with ganged pots), to sweep through the vowels.
The old Fender fuzz-wah had a dual-axis rocker which let you rock fore and aft as well as twisting. However, the problem is that not all combinations make vowels. The brain only recognizes the certain regions and anything off the combinations just sounds like tone-controlled music, not vowels.
Quote
Or maybe I'm just plain nuts
One of my favorite aphorisms is that a monstrous mind is a toy forever. :icon_biggrin:
QuoteR.G., god damn you. Now I won't be able to sleep tonight!
Welcome to the village of the damned. :icon_lol:
as always, bro, you have blown what little is left of my mind...i'm surprised there's anything left!
are you gonna eventually post this creation? cuz man, i'd sure love to build it!!!
;)
Will I post it? Hmmm... maybe. It's gotta work first. :icon_eek:
DUDE! I GOT FAITH IN YA!!! :icon_mrgreen:
r.g., i have a question...is there any way to make the modulation of the formant filter SLOWER? i'd love to get it down on the slower settings to about half the speed it is now.
could i replace one of the caps with one maybe with 2-3 times the value to make it slower? or am i barking up the wrong tree? it'd be great to be able to make it sweep really slow.. i have a feeling it would make the treadle more expressive, too.
Sure. It's a little clumsy because of the way they did the modulation, but do-able.
C2, C6, and C12 on the console board control various aspects of the modulation speed. C2 (1uF) controls the basic rate of modulation. It sets how fast the basic "tick" of the thing works. C6 (1uF) sets the slew rate up and down on the formant control sweeps, and C12 controls in a gross fashion the size of the signal to the formant sweep. Doubling all of those should cut things down by half.
For slower pedal expression, just doubling C6 will do a lot. It will also make the modulation move less fast, but not do anything about the time between when it changes directions.
hmmm, sounds like c6 is the one to change...it may be blasphemous, but i'm thinking of maybe doing a couple mods to the pedal, as it's in far from pristine condition already..
so maybe putting c6 and a double sized version on a switch would be cool. the other thing i'm thinking about is adding a momentary switch to the animation pedal, so it can be just stepped on occaisionally and only engages the modulation...and the ramping effect...while the switch is depressed.
or maybe i should just chill til the clone gets realized...
too much coffee...the world is wobbling nicely!! ;)
If you mean slowing down the RATE, then trimmer R4 on the console board should do the job for you. I've played with that one, and it moves the hi/lo range of the Rate. If you slow down the Lo, the Hi will come down with it, and vice versa. Expanding the range will require a mod, but moving the range, try trimmer R4. Pretty sure it's that one.
IF.... that's what you mean :icon_wink:
that IS what i mean...i'll try it later!! thanks dino!!
tho it would indeed be nice to adjust the usable range some, for sure!!
;)
switchable parallel cap of same value?
good idea...think i may wait tho and do it to the clone, now that the caffiene is starting to settle a little bit, lol...
guys, found this at www.fairradio.com
35vct 1amp 2.5x 2.8x 3 #1341155-2 "rusty condition" for 4 bux apiece...
don't know if this would be right, but it seems to be in the ballpark for size, etc..
Since these are the tech notes, I decided to post this here.
Jimi sent me the trimmer resistances from his unit on the other thread, and I've been playing with the unit a bit tonight. I realized that trimmer R41 adjusts the frequency range when the unit is in Parallel mode. You can make the sweep brighter or darker, depending on where you set the trimmer. It does nothing in other modes, so far.
Since I've recorded all my trimmer settings, I'll go through my unit again, and record what trimmer affects what. I already know what some do, but others (like R41) only respond when the unit is in a certain mode. When I've got them figured out, I'll post them.
Cheers,
Dino
Quote from: digi2t on July 03, 2011, 07:43:01 PM
Since these are the tech notes, I decided to post this here.
Jimi sent me the trimmer resistances from his unit on the other thread, and I've been playing with the unit a bit tonight. I realized that trimmer R41 adjusts the frequency range when the unit is in Parallel mode. You can make the sweep brighter or darker, depending on where you set the trimmer. It does nothing in other modes, so far.
Very good to know!
QuoteSince I've recorded all my trimmer settings, I'll go through my unit again, and record what trimmer affects what. I already know what some do, but others (like R41) only respond when the unit is in a certain mode. When I've got them figured out, I'll post them.
That would be very useful. I haven't yet done enough analysis to figure out specifically what dinks with what. A guide to that would be very nice indeed. I was waiting for the first boards to be tried to dive into that. I *think* the voltage/net labeled 'gamma' (?) sets some kind of basic operating voltage/frequency for both filters, and then each one has an independent amount of that, controlled by R41 and R62. The two 50K trimmers balance the two sides of each formant filter by letting a different amount of the control voltage from the modulation voltage go through. It's not clear to me what happens then.
I *think* they work by varying the transconductance of the transistors in the filter, in a similar concept but different manner than the Moog ladder filter. I haven't been able to map that to a common filter format yet. I just went state variable for the thing I did.
Quote from: R.G. on July 03, 2011, 08:44:55 PM
I haven't been able to map that to a common filter format yet. I just went state variable for the thing I did.
Sounds like between your project, the Phase II, and the Vocalizer, we're starting a vocal wah trend. Should be fun!
testing....the forum was down earlier!!
weird!
ya know, thinking about it, i guess it does make sense to make a standard wah option available...the counter position is pretty close already.
so keppy, any chance on a BOM? i'm really curious which transistors you ended up choosing for the project...
i know i'm impatient, lol...sorry... after all this time, i wanna see this thing live again, and hopefully even be improved upon!!
anyways....look forward to more updates when they're possible...thanks to everyone involved in this! ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 04, 2011, 11:26:46 PM
so keppy, any chance on a BOM? i'm really curious which transistors you ended up choosing for the project...
R.G. made the BOM, but he's waiting for me to test the circuit before putting it out there I think. The transistors are the ones he mentioned earlier in the thread (or maybe the other one): 2N5551 NPN & 2N4401 PNP, with a TIP112 Darlington for the regulator (Q6 on the console board). That's off the top of my head, so sorry for any mistakes.
As you can see in the photo I posted a few days ago, I socketed all of them in case any need to be switched to something else. I had been thinking about trying R.G.'s suggestions first, then replacing all of them with 2N3904/3906 just for comparison's sake, but they were such a pain to jam in the sockets that I'll probably just leave it as is unless it doesn't work.
Hi guys,
I should have the info on the trimmers in the next few days. There are still 3 trimmers that have me perplexed, but it's probably because I haven't figured out the right configuration yet to really hear what's going on.
I have found that some are interdependant, which is normal, to achieve the right formant zones (vowels). There is even one (sorry, I don't have unit in front of me right now, so, no number) that seem to change the wave. For lack of more precise terms, it seems to adjust from a sine, to more of a square wave. It gives the yoyoyoyoyo somewhat better definition i.e. yo yo yo yo yo. Then, there are 2 trimmer that are VERY interactive in B mode, to the point that I could hear "whatsup/whatsup/whatsup" coming out of the unit. THAT really blew my mind. In B mode you can somewhat vary the alternance of certain vowels i.e. "aoaoaoao" or "aiaiaiaiai" etc. Also, setting up the treadle pot sweep is important as well, since you can end up with a "deadzone" (no audible change) at either end of the remaining pot travel. I am sooooo glad that I have everything documented, or else one could seriously mess up the sound of this puppy.
I figure by Sunday, I'll be posting the results. So far, it's quite incredible how totally engrossing playing with these trimmers can be. A day can just fly by, and you feel you're barely scratching the surface.
i'm really thinking the trimmers should be moved externally for fine tuning...maybe put a switch to select between the internal trimmers and external pots so we can move things around. the trimmers really do do some insane stuff, and are highly interactive in some cases.
like dino said, man, you could play with this thing for days and find all kindsa weird stuff.
i'm not surprised you got it talking...that's the pedal i remember in days of yore.
;)
Quotemaybe put a switch to select between the internal trimmers and external pots so we can move things around.
I think that would really make an already complicated unit a bit too.... over the top. Considering that you have a choice of single vowels, counter vowels, or parallel vowels, I think really give one enough meat to work with. Besides, the major changes that you can incur with just minor adjustments, would make external trimmers a nightmare to start fiddling with.
The reason for which I'm investigating the trimmers, is so we can a least have some sort of tuning guide to refer to. Since tuning info is non-existant (no news from the Ludwig guy yet), I figure that we should have at the very least an idea on what to look for when it comes time to set this sucker up. Also, if we can figure out A+B=C, then we'll also know what to look for if we can't achieve C. Or, if one wishes to set the unit to sound a certain way, then we can recommend which trimmer(s) to play with.
I just think that it important to get the most amount of info to Keppy in regards to this, at this point. Since he's so close to getting the prototype powered up, it would be nice that he at least has some info from an original units setup to reference to.
dig it. good thinking dino!
on mine, when i first opened it, ALL the trimmers were at the half way mark except for the horizontal one, which was almost all the way up, for what it's worth.
the setting is sent you were a result of playing with it and trying to tweak it in for the best sounds by ear...so it'll be interesting to see what's what, as i'm sure we've both got parts that have drifted quite a bit from spec in various parts of the circuit.
Quote from: digi2t on July 05, 2011, 03:49:43 PM
I just think that it important to get the most amount of info to Keppy in regards to this, at this point. Since he's so close to getting the prototype powered up, it would be nice that he at least has some info from an original units setup to reference to.
Thanks, I appreciate it!
Incidentally, while we're on the subject of trimmers, there's one that is listed in the schem as 150R. As that seems to be a non-standard value these days, I used a 100R, since that's the trimmer Jimi replaced and that's the value he used and it worked for him. I did this despite the fact that it makes more logical sense to use a 200R replacement as all the resistance values of the original trimmer would then be available. Dino, could you report back to us on whether it's worth using a 200R trimmer to get resistance values in the 100-150R range?
the 100r seemed to be fine, the "sweet spot" is right about 80-90r keppy. 200 will be fine, but you'll probably find most of it above 100r is unusable. if memory serves, it will make the unit self-oscillate if too high.
hope that helps bro! that populated board is a thing of beauty!! that's the control board and the fall board on one pcb, right?
;)
sweet, dude, very sweet!!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 05, 2011, 06:29:12 PM
that's the control board and the fall board on one pcb, right?
Yup, I left them together. R.G. intended for them to be split apart, but I couldn't see any advantages to that in the enclosure I got (1590D). If all goes well, the enclosure will open up book-style, folding the board on nicely trimmed wires. If anything goes poorly, it will be a tangled mess that I will never want to open again for fear of breaking some part of the squished-together wiring. :icon_eek:
Yup, mine's a 150R, and also confirms the setting in Jimi's unit. Mine is set about the middle of the range, which is close to Jimi's readings. I think it would be best to use a 200R, since this trimmer is responsible for vowel frequency, so a little more is better. 100R might cut it a little close if we take related component tolerences (resistors, capacitors) into consideration.
Quotebut you'll probably find most of it above 100r is unusable. if memory serves, it will make the unit self-oscillate if too high.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 150R is trimmer R29, but I find that trimmer R65 (25K) will set it into oscillation if set too high. I find that anything over halfway on R65 will induce oscillation, especially with the treadle in the heel down position.
Keppy, does your board allow for the use of multi-turn Bournes trimmers? I'm a big fan of them, and would like to use them for my clone. Say, these ones;
http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/3266.pdf (http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/3266.pdf)
They have the "Y" pin configuration, so, would they fit on your board?
yah, a few of them will send it into self oscillation...
i think it's kinda cool!! ;)
well, maybe not in a musical context, but... :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
OK, here is what I've discovered so far insofar as the trimmers are concerned.
On the console board;
R4 - RATE range adjustment (shifts the hi/lo range of the RATE slider).
R20 - COUNTER and VOWEL tone adjustment.
On the motherboard;
R29 - Frequency adjustment for all modes. This (to me) is the "Jesus" trimmer. Without the fuzz on, this, R20, and R31 will primarily be responsible for proper vowel sounds and annunciation.
R31 - Hard to describe this one, but to my ears, it sounds like a wave adjustment, sort of like going from sine to square.
R55 - FUZZ RPT. frequency adjustment (tone of the percussive beat).
R62 - FUZZ RPT. signal frequency adjustment (tone of the fuzz signal in FUZZ RPT. mode).
R65 - FUZZ RPT. gain (gain of the percussive beat). Have to be careful with this one, too much gain bleeds out oscillation everywhere, even bypassed.
R77 - FUZZ frequency adjustment in PARALLEL mode.
That's the best I can describe them in my best layman's terms. :icon_smile:
excellent work dino, you seem to have really figured this stuff out bro!! i may play with the trimmers some more, now that i have a clue what some of them actually do! ;)
I think we should rename this puppy. In FUZZ RPT. mode, it becomes the Ludwig Phase II Bongo Synth. :icon_mrgreen:
Keppy, does your board allow for the use of multi-turn Bournes trimmers? I'm a big fan of them, and would like to use them for my clone. Say, these ones;
http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/3266.pdf (http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/3266.pdf)
They have the "Y" pin configuration, so, would they fit on your board?
[/quote]
Those look similar to the multi-turns I have here. They will physically fit in the available space, but the pin spacing on the version of the fall plate board I have would be awkward for them. I emailed R.G. about it, and he says he has since arranged the pads in a more versatile manner, so those will probably work.
Just got through looking at this. I subbed in a footprint which is a composite of the three most common trimmer footprints. One of them wasn't the Bourns 3266 series, but with the link I checked. It fits the smallest of the three possibles. So yes - 10 turns will work as long as they don't have too low a dissipation for the current that's going through them. I haven't checked power dissipation on all the resistors and pots.
OK, we might be getting closer to the hand of God here. Just had another exchange with the guy whose close to the Ludwigs, and he's found the name, and is getting in touch with, the guy who actually brought this sucker to life back in the day.
Hopefully, I'll be able to get the setup info, and we'll be able to REALLY know what this baby is supposed to sound like. Besides, all those trimmers STILL have me perplexed!
Quote from: digi2t on July 13, 2011, 12:44:12 AM
OK, we might be getting closer to the hand of God here. Just had another exchange with the guy whose close to the Ludwigs, and he's found the name, and is getting in touch with, the guy who actually brought this sucker to life back in the day.
Hopefully, I'll be able to get the setup info, and we'll be able to REALLY know what this baby is supposed to sound like. Besides, all those trimmers STILL have me perplexed!
It would be interesting to see how the filters are supposed to work. Generally a circuit's function pops out at me, but these are unusual in that I can't directly relate them to one of the normal active filters in my head.
Some of the trimmers are obvious in function. Others are only guessable until we get one running.
QuoteIt would be interesting to see how the filters are supposed to work. Generally a circuit's function pops out at me, but these are unusual in that I can't directly relate them to one of the normal active filters in my head.
I hear U there.
IMO, It's drawn really caddywompus :icon_lol:
Yes, that's a "REAL" word :icon_eek:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caddywompus
Yeh, I don't see those filters, YET :icon_wink:
Gonna have to redraw the whole thing to wrap my head around it :icon_redface:
May all your hazes be purple!
afn
:icon_cool:
i think once the clone is built, we're gonna be surprised at just how much acid the designers were doing...lol.
can't wait! ;)
just checkin' in guys...analogman has contributed some more stuff on the other thread, so check it out when ya can! ;)
It sounds like Keppy is nearly on line. When he gets it fired up, we'll have what we need to put the icing on the cake, I think. I'm watching.
If Kep nails this, I'm havin' a brewsky in his honor. Then another for R.G. Then another for Jimi. Then anotherlkao forjpjdf lalaijfa;;adsk......................
me too....hic!!
Quote from: Keppy on July 21, 2011, 01:15:23 AM
I've zeroed in on the problem, if not the solution. It's the transistor in that add-on amplifier. If I connect an audio probe to the base, I get signal. To the collector or the emitter, nada. Voltage reads full supply on the collector, nothing on the base or emitter. I am currently using a 2N5551 in that spot.
Earlier posts mentioned an undocumented resistor (1Meg, I think) that R.G. speculated might be used to bias that transistor. What can you guys tell me about that? I'll see if I can find the post...
Good work isolating that. That add-on always bothered me.
Fortunately, we can just nail it. It's acting just like I thought it would be doing from the schematic. A quick bit of simulation shows that a 1M from collector to base on the add-on transistor makes it have gain and not be blocked. Paste that in if you can. Perhaps the back side of the PCB. I can draw up where to put it if you want.
Crap... I should have posted this here, in the tech notes. Here it is again, my sincerest apologies for the double up.
Are you talking about this?;
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/LudwigPhase2004.jpg)
If so, it consists of 47k and 10k resistors, 0.1uF cap, and a 2N4401 tranny. Maybe the 2N5551 isn't cutting the mustard?
I was looking at the schem again, and I'd like to run something by you guys, insofar as the volume output of the unit is concerned. On the fall plate diagram, point 6 (to my untrained eye) seems to be the output of the unit. It goes through the terminal strip/amplifer section, and then out. Resistor R73 sits between point 6, and ground. Wouldn't this resistor directly affect the output level of the unit? If so, could we switch between two different resistances, via the formant switches to A) Bring the volumes to unity, and maybe B) Make the unit a bit louder overall? Or maybe a balance pot arrangement, allowing the user to vary the balance between fuzz, and fuzz/formant output.
I hate to keep harping on this, but it really is a major weak point of the unit. If I could catagorize the volume output level of the unit, in it's various operating modes, it would be as follows (except for bypass, which is adjustable);
Fuzz - weak
Fuzz + Formants - louder
Formants (no Fuzz) - loudest
And, as a sidebar, I've found that vowel pronunciation can vary on the unit depending on the input signal volume as well. At certain points, with the guitar on full volume, in formant "C"/no fuzz mode the unit will produce bow wow wow, but roll off the guitar volume a bit, and it cleans up to yoy yoy yoy. Almost as if the guitar alone were overdriving the unit. Not something I would necessarily want to correct, but I thought I would put it out there as FYI. I find that it does allow some tonal pallate change on the fly, without having to touch the unit. I'm using a cheap Strat copy with it right now, and I don't think the pups are THAT hot, but I imagine my Motherbuckers loaded Ibanez will probably do a wicked job on this sucker. Maybe an input level pot wouldn't be a bad idea?
Jimi, if you've got the time, could you confirm my statements bro? Thanks!
Quote from: digi2t on July 21, 2011, 08:28:18 AM
Crap... I should have posted this here, in the tech notes. Here it is again, my sincerest apologies for the double up.
No biggie.
QuoteAre you talking about this?;
Yep.
QuoteIf so, it consists of 47k and 10k resistors, 0.1uF cap, and a 2N4401 tranny. Maybe the 2N5551 isn't cutting the mustard?
Yep, that's the circuit. Any chance you could do a quick measurement on the DC collector voltage?
On some of the pics posted here, I noticed a 1M resistor patch-soldered onto the component side of the PCB. I don't know where that goes. But as it turns out, a 1M between collector and base of the add-on transistor biases it so it has a gain of 10 or more. I'm not sure why they'd put the rest of it on that terminal strip and the bias resistor on the PCB; it's just a theory. But it's pretty sure that if the base of the add-on doesn't get some bias, it won't amplify; and the circuit will work as Kep is reporting. I don't think it's the 5551 as much as needing to bias it up.
Quote
I was looking at the schem again, and I'd like to run something by you guys, insofar as the volume output of the unit is concerned. On the fall plate diagram, point 6 (to my untrained eye) seems to be the output of the unit. It goes through the terminal strip/amplifer section, and then out. Resistor R73 sits between point 6, and ground. Wouldn't this resistor directly affect the output level of the unit?
Yep.
QuoteIf so, could we switch between two different resistances, via the formant switches to A) Bring the volumes to unity, and maybe B) Make the unit a bit louder overall? Or maybe a balance pot arrangement, allowing the user to vary the balance between fuzz, and fuzz/formant output.
I hate to keep harping on this, but it really is a major weak point of the unit. If I could catagorize the volume output level of the unit, in it's various operating modes, it would be as follows (except for bypass, which is adjustable);
Fuzz - weak
Fuzz + Formants - louder
Formants (no Fuzz) - loudest
Yep. Those are possibles. I've kind of been waiting to see if we can get back to a functional clone to start tinkering. But all those are possible.
QuoteAnd, as a sidebar, I've found that vowel pronunciation can vary on the unit depending on the input signal volume as well. At certain points, with the guitar on full volume, in formant "C"/no fuzz mode the unit will produce bow wow wow, but roll off the guitar volume a bit, and it cleans up to yoy yoy yoy. Almost as if the guitar alone were overdriving the unit. Not something I would necessarily want to correct, but I thought I would put it out there as FYI. I find that it does allow some tonal pallate change on the fly, without having to touch the unit. I'm using a cheap Strat copy with it right now, and I don't think the pups are THAT hot, but I imagine my Motherbuckers loaded Ibanez will probably do a wicked job on this sucker. Maybe an input level pot wouldn't be a bad idea?
Interesting. I wonder if the filters overload on big signals and that changes their operating point.
QuoteOn some of the pics posted here, I noticed a 1M resistor patch-soldered onto the component side of the PCB.
Could you narrow down the location of this "patch-soldered" 1M resistor? Looking at my board, nothing is jumping out at me.
Tranny readings are;
E = 0.00
B = 0.621
C = 9.60 (avg., fluctuates a bit)
QuoteInteresting. I wonder if the filters overload on big signals and that changes their operating point.
I would say that your hitting the proverbial nail on the head. I would even go as far as to say that they are overloading in formant only operation, because the bow wow is a touch distorted, but when I roll back the throttle on the guitar a bit, it cleans up, and yoy yoy yoy appears. I guess maybe back in the day, the pick ups weren't as hot, so they designed the circuit with the average input heat available for the time. Speculation on my part.
It's here, just to the right of that black-knobbed trimmer in the middle of the board. It's in Jimi's pics of the internals.
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/DCP_3936.jpg)
I can't tell exactly where it goes, but it's in the area of the PCB that takes off to the output, and coincidentally the area where I stuffed in the external circuit in the PCB Keppy is working on now. I speculated that it may be just connected to a DC point that feeds a little bias current into the output connection. That would bias up the external transistor enough to amplify, maybe.
PHEW!!! I thought my eyes were going bad there for a bit.
I don't have that "add-on" on my board. Someone must have tried to get creative with Jimi's unit. Mine has only the 150K, as per the diagram.
Jimi, can you have a gander and see where the two ends of the darker piggy-back resistor go? The light colored R33 one is the original (same as mine, color bands match resistance too). The band colors off the darker one would be nice as well, not too clear in the pic. Just by the pic, it doesen't make sense to me that they bridged the 150K with a 1M ???
hi guys, that r 33 resistor is indeed bridged with a 1 meg...it's definitely stock, so i'm imagining it was to bias something... it's tieing the base and collector of q7 on the schematic, i'm still enough of a newb to have no idea what that part of the circuit is doing...but i'd imagine higher resistance equals higher gain?
i'm gonna be on the road mostly the next two days, i'll try and open it up on saturday when i finally get some down time.
there's something going on with what dino reports as to volume drops, for sure.
when mine had broken, and the 150r trimmer (r65) was not passing signal, i got hella fuzz by adjusting trimmers r62, 55 and 41. i could get SCREAMIN' loud fuzz out of it by playing with them, but as soon as i fixed the trimmer and got the formant working again, the fuzz kinda whimpered out again. i'm assuming they're "stealing" a lot of the fuzz gain to make the formant filters work? maybe they aren't two discrete parts of the circuit, but happy coincidences of one?
R.G.? help a newb out? any ideas?
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 21, 2011, 11:55:41 AM
hi guys, that r 33 resistor is indeed bridged with a 1 meg...it's definitely stock, so i'm imagining it was to bias something... it's tieing the base and collector of q7 on the schematic, i'm still enough of a newb to have no idea what that part of the circuit is doing...but i'd imagine higher resistance equals higher gain?
i'm gonna be on the road mostly the next two days, i'll try and open it up on saturday when i finally get some down time.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that makes no sense whatsoever. If they are indeed in parallel, the signal will still prefer to travel through the 150K, rather that the 1M, rendering the 1M useless. Path of least resistance.
My kids follow the same principle when it comes to cleaning up :icon_smile:
maybe it has to do with the division of being parallelled? what's 1,000,000 divided by 150?
i get 6666.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666667 ohms.
i think my calculator is broke!!
;)
Quote from: R.G. on July 21, 2011, 08:04:14 AM
Quote from: Keppy on July 21, 2011, 01:15:23 AM
I've zeroed in on the problem, if not the solution. It's the transistor in that add-on amplifier. If I connect an audio probe to the base, I get signal. To the collector or the emitter, nada. Voltage reads full supply on the collector, nothing on the base or emitter. I am currently using a 2N5551 in that spot.
Earlier posts mentioned an undocumented resistor (1Meg, I think) that R.G. speculated might be used to bias that transistor. What can you guys tell me about that? I'll see if I can find the post...
Good work isolating that. That add-on always bothered me.
Fortunately, we can just nail it. It's acting just like I thought it would be doing from the schematic. A quick bit of simulation shows that a 1M from collector to base on the add-on transistor makes it have gain and not be blocked. Paste that in if you can. Perhaps the back side of the PCB. I can draw up where to put it if you want.
Doing this only gave me about .13v on the base. Still no conduction. I could lower the resistor value, but I hesitate to do anything here that is a known departure from the original. Any other ideas? Might I have an error somewhere else creating a voltage divider of the wrong sort?
One thing to note is that Dino's collector reads 9.6v. Mine reads the supply voltage ~35v or so. If anything, though, it seems like that would give me MORE current at the base, not less.
Oddly enough, I'm getting about 3 mV on the emitter, which is grounded. Continuity to ground checked out fine. Hmm.
Quote from: Keppy on July 21, 2011, 03:23:37 PM
One thing to note is that Dino's collector reads 9.6v. Mine reads the supply voltage ~35v or so. If anything, though, it seems like that would give me MORE current at the base, not less.
Take a 1M. Solder it on the bottom of the board from the collector of the add-on transistor to the base of the add-on transistor. I bet you get signal. Whether that's original or not is moot at this point. It will get you running.
QuoteOne thing to note is that Dino's collector reads 9.6v. Mine reads the supply voltage ~35v or so. If anything, though, it seems like that would give me MORE current at the base, not less.
There is a 10K resistor between the 35vdc and the collector. Wouldn't that cut down the voltage to 9.62? I'm taking a pot shot here. Bear with me, I'm learning to fish.
Quotemaybe it has to do with the division of being parallelled? what's 1,000,000 divided by 150?
GAWD I am such a noob, open mouth, insert shoe store :icon_rolleyes: After some studying, yes, parallel resistors do represent a different resistance. 150K and 1M give you about 130K. Sorry guys. Going to bed less stupid tonight... again! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: digi2t on July 21, 2011, 09:46:24 PM
There is a 10K resistor between the 35vdc and the collector. Wouldn't that cut down the voltage to 9.62? I'm taking a pot shot here. Bear with me, I'm learning to fish.
Ohm's Law again. The voltage across a resistor can be - anything at all. If there is zero current, there is zero voltage. So if the transistor doesn't conduct any current, there is no current in the 10K resistor, and its voltage drop is zero. In fact, the measurement that both ends of the 10K are up at 35V is a dead giveaway that the add-on transistor is not conducting at all.
QuoteGAWD I am such a noob, open mouth, insert shoe store :icon_rolleyes: After some studying, yes, parallel resistors do represent a different resistance. 150K and 1M give you about 130K. Sorry guys. Going to bed less stupid tonight... again!
We all get Mother Nature's little lessons. What's important is to learn from them. I like to think that the sheer number of scars on my hands indicates some kind of education. :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: R.G. on July 21, 2011, 09:43:48 PM
Quote from: Keppy on July 21, 2011, 03:23:37 PM
One thing to note is that Dino's collector reads 9.6v. Mine reads the supply voltage ~35v or so. If anything, though, it seems like that would give me MORE current at the base, not less.
Take a 1M. Solder it on the bottom of the board from the collector of the add-on transistor to the base of the add-on transistor. I bet you get signal. Whether that's original or not is moot at this point. It will get you running.
I did exactly what you're suggesting prior to the post you're quoting.
Quote from: Keppy on July 21, 2011, 03:23:37 PM
Doing this only gave me about .13v on the base. Still no conduction. I could lower the resistor value, but I hesitate to do anything here that is a known departure from the original. Any other ideas? Might I have an error somewhere else creating a voltage divider of the wrong sort?
Quote from: Keppy on July 21, 2011, 10:26:09 PM
I did exactly what you're suggesting prior to the post you're quoting.
Ooops. Sorry. I read that wrong.
OK, found out what I did wrong. I ignored R73 (4.7K). Bad move.
Instead of 1M, put in 47K, 51K, or 68K; 47K preferred.
Got it! The effect now passes signal. Dry is bright, fuzz works and is a little quieter; voice fuzz is louder, harsher and severely gated.
No animation or formants yet. As far as the animation, I suspect console board Q2, the unijunction transistor.
e = 2.07
b1 = 2.47
b2 = 2.47
(I get the same readings whether animation is on or off. All readings are stable.)
R.G., as I said in an email, the datasheet I found for this transistor listed a different pinout than what is in your layout. Currently, I have the legs bent around to match the pinout on this datasheet: http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/philips/2N2646.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/philips/2N2646.pdf)
Should I pull it out of the socket, unbend the legs and put it in according to your layout?
As far as the formants go, none of them does much of anything. If I turn them all on and move the pedal, I hear a tiny difference. Barely.
QuoteGot it! The effect now passes signal. Dry is bright, fuzz works and is a little quieter; voice fuzz is louder, harsher and severely gated.
You're on the right track Kep. Dry signal sounds right. Fuzz, and Voice Fuzz, might be switched around. In Voice fuzz mode, the control goes from nothing to full smooth fuzz. In Fuzz mode, it ges from nothing, to full fuzz around the middle of the range, to a gated fuzz at the top.
Quote from: Keppy on July 22, 2011, 12:52:46 AM
...I suspect console board Q2, the unijunction transistor.
...the datasheet I found for this transistor listed a different pinout than what is in your layout. Currently, I have the legs bent around to match the pinout on this datasheet...
Keppy,
What is the transistor that is called out in the original unit? I have drawers full of transistors from the last 50 years. Let me do some digging. :icon_wink:
Quote from: Keppy on July 22, 2011, 12:52:46 AM
Got it! The effect now passes signal. Dry is bright, fuzz works and is a little quieter; voice fuzz is louder, harsher and severely gated.
Yee-haaah (as we say here).
Quote
No animation or formants yet. As far as the animation, I suspect console board Q2, the unijunction transistor.
Q2 would be the animation thing. Formants will be tinkering with the fall plate filters.
Quote
e = 2.07
b1 = 2.47
b2 = 2.47
(I get the same readings whether animation is on or off. All readings are stable.)
R.G., as I said in an email, the datasheet I found for this transistor listed a different pinout than what is in your layout. Currently, I have the legs bent around to match the pinout on this datasheet:
Should I pull it out of the socket, unbend the legs and put it in according to your layout?
I sure thought I re-scrambled those to match the datasheet. Try this: set your meter to measure resistance and start measuring between pins on Q2 out of circuit. A *uni* junction transistor only has one diode junction, that between the base and the bar of conductive stuff. The bar of conductive stuff looks like a resistor between the two emitter leads, and will measure the same resistance with either direction of the meter leads. The emitter is the only one of the three that will measure open circuit/reverse diode to either of the bases. Once you identify the emitter lead, there is only two possible orientations for B1 and B2.
If the orientation/pinout you're using is right, there's a bug in the circuit feeding the socket. Pull out Q2 and measure voltages on the socket pins. The B2 side should measure 35V, the B1 side should measure zero, and the emitter pin should measure the same as the emitter of Q1, and wire pads 11, 12, and 28. These are all connected by resistors and pulling Q2 gives them no current flow, so they all measure the same voltage.
Quote
As far as the formants go, none of them does much of anything. If I turn them all on and move the pedal, I hear a tiny difference. Barely.
I suspect this may be a trimmer setting issue. Let's get the animation working, then we'll hit the filters.
great work, keppy!! the fuzz part working is a big step...that's half the battle, right there. it's a very bright, nasally fuzz, and depending on the fuzz type switch, you should get normal fuzz one way, and better fuzz in the middle as dino pointed out. on mine, it came down to playing with that 150r trimmer,
but...i think i know what the issue may be from your description. i made a mistake yesterday...i confused r65 for r29, cuz i was running around like a chicken with no head.
R65 NEEDS TO BE DIMED FOR THE FORMANTS TO WORK!! try that, don't set it half way, try it pegged...mine only seems to work right damn near all the way up.
hope this helps bud!! ;)
QuoteR65 NEEDS TO BE DIMED FOR THE FORMANTS TO WORK!! try that, don't set it half way, try it pegged...mine only seems to work right damn near all the way up.
Mine was set completely counter-clockwise when I got mine. I did dial it up (or down?) a touch, about 15 - 20 degrees, since it accentuates the thumping of the oscilator in fuzz repeat mode. Any more than that sends the unit into very loud oscilation, which can even be heard in bypass.
R29 is a formant frequency adjustment. Mine is close to the middle, and small adjustments can yield fairly large changes in the vowels produced. Hence my earlier request for multi-turn trimmers on the clone :icon_mrgreen:. R29, R31 (close to the middle), and R20 (about 2/3 clockwise), should get you close. Other than R4, which adjusts the rate range, I've found the other trimmers only to affect frequencies when the unit is in fuzz repeat mode.
weird!!! then perhaps he needs to just about turn it off...mine is at the dimed position, but dimed is actually fully counterclockwise...off maybe a degree or two, that's what i meant by dimed. my bad, dino...i just remember it's at the one extreme. if he's got the trimmer in the middle, that may be why he's getting no formants then maybe?
i wonder if we have different revisions of the circuit...cuz mine, some of the trimmers seem to be set completely different?
I'm guessing that the individual characteristics of the transistors in the filters may require dramatically different trimmer settings.
In the electronics design world, trimmers are a pain; they are unreliable (compared to a fixed resistor), drift worse, and require a human to set them. The human setting labor is quite expensive. Trimmers are avoided as hard as they can be. So having - what, seven of them? - in this thing means that they had to put them in, and that means that they may be critical, as fits your experience Jimi.
From where the trimmers are in the circuit, it's pretty certain that they interact.
I've been thinking that the best way to get Keppy running is probably to read the voltages on the two working units' transistor collectors, diddle the trimmers to get Keppy's collectors to nearly there, then do fine tweaks. I'm pretty sure the "test points" noted in the schematic can be used for tuning it in, but there may be some complicated procedure which is now lost to us. We'll have to make up our own as we go.
Quote from: R.G. on July 22, 2011, 10:06:38 AM
I sure thought I re-scrambled those to match the datasheet.
'Fraid not. The datasheet has the emitter on the middle pin. Looking at the schematic, your layout has it on the side closest to the fall plate board.
Quote
Try this: set your meter to measure resistance and start measuring between pins on Q2 out of circuit. A *uni* junction transistor only has one diode junction, that between the base and the bar of conductive stuff. The bar of conductive stuff looks like a resistor between the two emitter leads, and will measure the same resistance with either direction of the meter leads. The emitter is the only one of the three that will measure open circuit/reverse diode to either of the bases. Once you identify the emitter lead, there is only two possible orientations for B1 and B2.
My meter says I have it right.
Quote
If the orientation/pinout you're using is right, there's a bug in the circuit feeding the socket. Pull out Q2 and measure voltages on the socket pins. The B2 side should measure 35V, the B1 side should measure zero, and the emitter pin should measure the same as the emitter of Q1, and wire pads 11, 12, and 28. These are all connected by resistors and pulling Q2 gives them no current flow, so they all measure the same voltage.
The bases look fine. The emitter is at 33.9v, while the emitter of Q1 is at 35.2v.
As far as the trimmers go, I tried all the ones on the fall plate one by one with no success. Maybe I need to combine adjustments or something. Anyway, the quick fix failed, so I'll work on the animation before getting to the trimmers.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on July 22, 2011, 08:46:25 AM
Keppy,
What is the transistor that is called out in the original unit? I have drawers full of transistors from the last 50 years. Let me do some digging. :icon_wink:
I'm actually using the original type transistor - a 2N2646 ($3 from Small Bear). There's just some confusion about the pinout. Thanks though!
hi, R.G., yes, the trimmers are certainly interactive...other than r65, most i think need to be set around the mid point to find the "sweet spot".
if r65 is almost off as dino noted (again, my bad) the next one, after setting the rest mid-point is probably r31 - that seems to set the overall range of the exp pedal, and the working range of the filters in general...there's actually a couple different spots in the travel of that trimmer that go from no sound to sound, and even can make the exp pedal seem to work "backwards"...playing with that may help to define where the sweet spot is to get the formants working.
i'm suspecting from what keppy has reported, that maybe that 150 ohm trimmer is broken or open...he seems to be describing the same thing i did.
keppy, try using a test lead to short across the outside terminals of the trimmer...if you suddenly have formants, that may be the problem. IN the unit, mine at first read fine, then didn't read at all...when i took it out, it read like it was ok!! but it wasn't... as soon as i replaced it, the unit started working again. if that's the problem, it will show immediately by bridging those two contacts. i think it's just wired as a variable resistor anyways.
tomorrow i have a day off, gigging tonite too and the ludwig is in the trunk of the car with the rest of the stuff (tried to use it last nite at the gig, but all the lights and icemakers and crap had the power so dirty it was humming too bad to use), but tomorrow i will gladly open her up, and maybe we can figure out a time to meet via an instant messenger or something so i can take readings for you anywhere in the circuit that you feel may be helpful.
one other thought...do you have another transistor you can sub there? maybe the transistor is faulty? pardon my ignorance please, i am really just barely getting my toes wet in electronics, and don't mean to assume you haven't checked or anything...
but i've found sometimes in my limited experience that one transistor may work fine in another circuit, but may fail to work at all in the circuit i got it for. really weird.
sometimes, just swapping two resistors from socket to socket seems to make a difference.
mojo? beats me!! but i have faith you're gonna figure it out , it'll probably be one of those "aha!" things that makes ya slap your forehead and shake your head.
rock on!! dude...you've come so far, after people trying for literally decades to do this...you're gonna go down in the annals of history as the guy that cracked the nut!
;)
or at least in the annals of the diy movement! ;)
Thanks for the encouragement Jimi! I'll try your suggestions when I get home.
Unfortunately, I don't have a second 2646 to substitute. I'll order one if no other solution presents itself.
The transistor seems to be intact. I measured a voltage drop of .8v from the emitter to either base, which tests normally when I reverse the leads. Seems normal, but I guess you never know.
Quote from: Keppy on July 22, 2011, 02:09:43 PM
'Fraid not. The datasheet has the emitter on the middle pin. Looking at the schematic, your layout has it on the side closest to the fall plate board.
Bummer. I'll go scramble it now before I forget.
QuoteThe bases look fine. The emitter is at 33.9v, while the emitter of Q1 is at 35.2v.
That's OK-ish. I would have thought the emitter pin would be higher, but it's high, much higher than the 2V or so before. So with Q2 back in socket, the emitter drops to 2V and stays there, right?
I'll have to go do some digging, but with E at 2V and B1=B2 = 2.47, the base/emitter is reverse biased and conduction should turn off unless the current through B1 and B2 is high enough to hold it on.
More when I get a spice model of the 2646 running. Right now the model refuses to work. A 2N6027 model works first time, but that's not the real device. :icon_frown:
Hang in there Kep, we're all here for you. My unit has been apart since day one of this adventure, just so I can get into it easily and quickly for this project. If you need more readings, just say the word. Tell me what you need, and I'll whip it up for you pronto.
You're close man, I feel it. 99% sure it's some stupidity. With 2 units at your disposal, it can't be otherwise.
amen dat gents!! you're gonna find it keppy, i have absolutely no doubt...
and then you're gonna get all excited, cuz you're gonna have one of the coolest toys on the planet...
and even better, something you made yourself! ;)
So I've been pondering that preamp circuit, and I was wondering if it was traced correctly. A 47k resistor from base to collector caused it to work in my unit. There is a 47k pulldown resistor between the blocking cap and the bypass switch on the wiring diagram. Did we get that right? Or is that resistor maybe supposed to go from base to collector instead? I know I'm asking for a triple-check here, so sorry. It's just that my brain finds it offensive that a circuit that works perfectly well in the originals does not work without mods on my bench. >:(
You and me both!
Quote from: R.G. on July 22, 2011, 05:11:35 PM
So with Q2 back in socket, the emitter drops to 2V and stays there, right?
That's right.
Quote
I'll have to go do some digging, but with E at 2V and B1=B2 = 2.47, the base/emitter is reverse biased and conduction should turn off unless the current through B1 and B2 is high enough to hold it on.
That's not. B2 (middle pin) is only about .7v.
Quote from: digi2t on July 22, 2011, 01:35:26 PM
R29, R31 (close to the middle), and R20 (about 2/3 clockwise), should get you close. Other than R4, which adjusts the rate range, I've found the other trimmers only to affect frequencies when the unit is in fuzz repeat mode.
R20 on the fall plate board is not a trimmer. Did you mean R20 on the console board or something else? I thought R29 was the one that needed to be 2/3 up because of the switch from 150R to 100R (which I guess would be the middle on yours). Is there another one to try at 2/3?
2N4870 appears to be a direct replacement for 2N2646, but in a plastic TO-92 package.
I got a model running of the 2N2646.
Now I'm faced with not trusting it. :icon_rolleyes:
Anyway, the 2N2646 is sensitive to the maximum value of resistance feeding into the timing cap (1uF in this case.) Over about 500K and it won't run because it won't charge the cap up enough. So for testing your board, it might be wise to short pads 28 and 11, thereby taking the external animation speed pot (500K) out of it, and using only the R4 trimmer to set speeds. It has enough resistance to do fine on its own. Actually, setting R4 in the middle should make the UJT work.
Here's the thing - you probably can't see the output on B1 or B2 on other than an oscilloscope. B2 is a fast pulse down, B1 is a fast pulse up. What you can look for is to look at wire pads 25 and 26 on the console board. These should flip-flop-flip-flop and be controlled in timing by the setting of R4. If they're flipping, that part is working.
QuoteDid you mean R20 on the console board or something else?
Yes, trimmer R20 on the console board. My apologies, I should have been more precise. I just figured that since we were talking trimmer, that it was a given :icon_redface:.
QuoteI thought R29 was the one that needed to be 2/3 up because of the switch from 150R to 100R
You're right, I'd forgotten about that mod. For sure, the setting will be different to compensate for the different value. The sweet spot should now be around the 2/3 point.
If you need me to test something Kep, don't be shy.
Quote from: digi2t on July 23, 2011, 08:05:15 AM
If you need me to test something Kep, don't be shy.
Thanks Dino! Could you recheck that preamp wiring like I mentioned at the top of the page?
I just thought of something. Doesn't the animation move the formant filters around? If so, shouldn't I get the formants working first? ??? Otherwise, I don't know how I'll be able to tell if the animation is fixed, short of keeping my meter on Q2 at all times.
This is one of those questions that's gonna make me feel stupid regardless of the answer. :icon_redface:
OMG!!!!! YOU GUYS ARE GONNA KILL ME!!!!! :icon_redface: :icon_redface: :icon_redface:
There is a 68K resistor between B and C on that terminal circuit. I only just spotted it because it soldered to the backside of the terminal strip, hiding the resistor between it and the casting of the fall board. MAN I FEEL LIKE A NUMBSKULL FOR NOT HAVING VERIFIED BEFORE!!! I had a sudden spurt of curiousity because the soldering just struck me as a tad bizarre, and decided to check in the corner, and there it was. DAMN!!! :icon_evil:
R.G., update your wiring diagram to reflect this, the rest of the circuit is correct. My sincerest apologies Kep, I know you're working hard on this. Hopefully, this will cinch it, formants and all.
Quote from: Keppy on July 23, 2011, 05:02:26 PM
I just thought of something. Doesn't the animation move the formant filters around? If so, shouldn't I get the formants working first? ??? Otherwise, I don't know how I'll be able to tell if the animation is fixed, short of keeping my meter on Q2 at all times.
This is one of those questions that's gonna make me feel stupid regardless of the answer. :icon_redface:
Not at all. You maybe did this intuitively, but you were intuitively right.
You have to verify the simple stuff that everything else depends on first. It's like making sure the power supplies are right before testing everything else. It's pretty certain that if the voltages from the rocker pedal and animation don't tell the formant filters to move, they won't move. Even if they are working perfectly.
I would start with measuring the voltage on pins 8 and 9 of the fall plate/filter board. If those voltages don't move, the filters aren't being told to move. Depending on the settings of the switches and controls, they should move with either animation or the rocker. Using the rocker is probably easier to get going than anything else, and it's output is all DC.
A very helpful contribution to debugging (digi2t... wink, wink, nudge, nudge) would be to know the range of DC voltages the pedal rocker pot makes those two points move in a working unit. Once we get that right, we can look at the filters even if animation is not working.
Quote from: digi2t on July 23, 2011, 05:34:27 PM
There is a 68K resistor between B and C on that terminal circuit. I only just spotted it because it soldered to the backside of the terminal strip, hiding the resistor between it and the casting of the fall board. MAN I FEEL LIKE A NUMBSKULL FOR NOT HAVING VERIFIED BEFORE!!! I had a sudden spurt of curiousity because the soldering just struck me as a tad bizarre, and decided to check in the corner, and there it was.
R.G., update your wiring diagram to reflect this, the rest of the circuit is correct. My sincerest apologies Kep, I know you're working hard on this. Hopefully, this will cinch it, formants and all.
Got it! I'll go update the info. It almost had to be something like that.
Don't be too upset - remember that we can expect this to be like peeling onions. :icon_lol:
This thing is on a par for complexity with the old Maestro Rhythm'N'Sound unit. It's a beast. Patient application will get us there.
QuoteA very helpful contribution to debugging (digi2t... wink, wink, nudge, nudge) would be to know the range of DC voltages the pedal rocker pot makes those two points move in a working unit. Once we get that right, we can look at the filters even if animation is not working.
Voltage between points 8 and 9 while moving the pedal, or across the pot? Or a point to ground? Let me know which points to measure, you'll have it later tonight.
No worries, Dino! So far, that resistor's been the easy part!
Now to other parts: I want to make sure I wired this thing correctly, so please confirm/correct the following:
- Animation footswitch wiper is grounded in bypass and lifted when on (or is it the other way around?).
- "Off" terminals of vowel switch have no connection.
Quote from: R.G. on July 23, 2011, 12:49:40 AM
So for testing your board, it might be wise to short pads 28 and 11, thereby taking the external animation speed pot (500K) out of it, and using only the R4 trimmer to set speeds. It has enough resistance to do fine on its own. Actually, setting R4 in the middle should make the UJT work.
No need to short, as turning the pot all the way up accomplishes this (verified with continuity test). Reading the schematic, the resistance between the emitters of Q1 & Q2 should be the total of R4, R5 and the speed pot. I have verified this with my meter, so I seem to be good resistance-wise.
Quote
Here's the thing - you probably can't see the output on B1 or B2 on other than an oscilloscope. B2 is a fast pulse down, B1 is a fast pulse up. What you can look for is to look at wire pads 25 and 26 on the console board. These should flip-flop-flip-flop and be controlled in timing by the setting of R4. If they're flipping, that part is working.
Not flipping. Got some weirdness, though. I'm reading a stable 15.7v difference between these, but only .06v to ground from either one. ???
Other notes:
- I used an audio taper pot for the Bypass Balance. I'm glad I did.
- I used a 25k log pot for the Lo Z Balance, as it was the lowest audio taper I had left and any value large enough should work as a variable resistor (as opposed to a voltage divider). I've only tested it with a guitar, but it works fine. Note that it will never turn the Lo Z input all the way off.
- R65 indeed causes oscillation if turned up too far. Well, turned too far clockwise based on R.G.'s layout, anyway. So I got that going for me.
I measured the voltage to ground at fall plate pins 8 & 9. At both points, I get about 2.5 volts at the heel, 4.5 at the toe. Maybe start with those, Dino.
Additionally, in parallel mode, the pedal controls the amount of noise I hear. Heel down, less noise, toe down, more noise. It sounds like it's affecting the treble as well, though it's hard to hear through the hiss at the moment. The noise is dependent on R65, which seems to be best set in this regard almost all the way counterclockwise, as stated by Dino & Jimi earlier.
Quote from: R.G. on July 23, 2011, 06:11:32 PM
Quote from: Keppy on July 23, 2011, 05:02:26 PM
I just thought of something. Doesn't the animation move the formant filters around? If so, shouldn't I get the formants working first? ??? Otherwise, I don't know how I'll be able to tell if the animation is fixed, short of keeping my meter on Q2 at all times.
This is one of those questions that's gonna make me feel stupid regardless of the answer. :icon_redface:
Not at all. You maybe did this intuitively, but you were intuitively right.
What I meant was, if I was wrong I misunderstood the circuit, but if I was right I should have thought of this earlier. I'd hate to get the animation working and not know it because I couldn't hear the filters!
I've been thinking that some of the switching diagrams could be clarified a bit. For example, Dino tells me I got the fuzz toggle backwards. In most cases I was able to refer to the schematic, but not all. Perhaps some on/off notes would be helpful. Incidentally, the fuzz toggle wiper to fall plate point 19 activates "Voice Fuzz." A toe/heel marking for the treadle pot would be good too.
On a sort-of-related note, does the direction of the arrow on a variable resistor symbol (like the Animation Speed or Lo Z Balance pots) mean anything? I've been wondering about that.
Quote from: R.G. on July 23, 2011, 12:49:40 AM
So for testing your board, it might be wise to short pads 28 and 11, thereby taking the external animation speed pot (500K) out of it, and using only the R4 trimmer to set speeds. It has enough resistance to do fine on its own. Actually, setting R4 in the middle should make the UJT work.
Just noticed that my earlier post failed to say that I did try this, and got no result. >:(
Quote from: digi2t on July 23, 2011, 06:17:35 PM
Voltage between points 8 and 9 while moving the pedal, or across the pot? Or a point to ground? Let me know which points to measure, you'll have it later tonight.
Voltage to ground on each separately. Looking for minimum and maximum voltages to ground as the rocker is moved to its extremes.
Quote from: Keppy on July 23, 2011, 06:24:12 PM
No need to short, as turning the pot all the way up accomplishes this (verified with continuity test). Reading the schematic, the resistance between the emitters of Q1 & Q2 should be the total of R4, R5 and the speed pot. I have verified this with my meter, so I seem to be good resistance-wise.
Oh, sure, do it the simple, straightforward way! :icon_lol:
QuoteNot flipping. Got some weirdness, though. I'm reading a stable 15.7v difference between these, but only .06v to ground from either one. ???
Hmmm. DC and not DC. Almost sounds like they're flipping madly faster than a meter can follow. That could mean that the two-transistor flipflop circuit is hosed. I'll try working up a diagnostic test for it.
Hmm. What happens if you pull out Q2, leaving them with no trigger? That should leave them forever in the same state they come up, with one collector high and one low.
Quote
Well, turned too far clockwise based on R.G.'s layout, anyway. So I got that going for me.
Yeah. Be suspicious of the direction the pots turn. I have a classic mistake I make of getting pot rotation backwards.
Quote from: Keppy on July 23, 2011, 07:14:16 PM
Just noticed that my earlier post failed to say that I did try this, and got no result. >:(
[/quote]
Bummer. Well, it does eliminate the "resistance too big" from being the cause of the animation UJT not running.
Quote from: R.G. on July 23, 2011, 07:16:36 PM
Hmm. What happens if you pull out Q2, leaving them with no trigger? That should leave them forever in the same state they come up, with one collector high and one low.
I get the same readings. Doesn't matter if the Animation footswitch is on or off, Q2 in or out. I've noticed that those joints are a bit touchy when I'm reading. I'll reflow the solder and check again.
Hmmm...
So I reflowed the solder at 25 & 26, and now they appear to be cycling. With Q2 still out of the circuit.
And now they've stopped. Maybe I need some fresh air.
Jimi & Dino, could you verify that R3 on the console board is indeed 1k? It's illegible in the schematic, and we've been assuming.
Here goes, no particular order;
- R3 on console board is NOT 1K, it is 1M. Verified by color code. (Might be a biggie here :icon_rolleyes:)
- Pedal toe/heel markings = Toe down = wiper to GND. Heel down = wiper to point 4.
- Vowel switch, both contacts have no connection in the OFF position.
- Animation footswitch - to GND = OFF. Lift is ON.
- Point 8 voltage readings - Toe = 2.62 vdc, heel = 6.35 vdc. (Taken with animation OFF, and rate at MIN. I got fluctuating otherwise)
- Point 9 voltage readings - Toe = 6.81 vdc, heel = 3.149 vdc. (Taken with animation OFF, and rate at MIN. I got fluctuating otherwise)
Anything else you need, make a detailed list, and I'll get on it pronto. You're close man... I can taste it!
Quote from: digi2t on July 23, 2011, 09:34:22 PM
- R3 on console board is NOT 1K, it is 1M. Verified by color code. (Might be a biggie here :icon_rolleyes:)
Not a disaster. It's illegible in all of the scans I have. What that controls is how fast the voltage controlling the animation speed can change. 1K doesn't misbias anything or keep it from working. It just changes speed faster. But it will be necessary to get it right eventually.
Good catch!
Quote- Point 8 voltage readings - Toe = 2.62 vdc, heel = 6.35 vdc. (Taken with animation OFF, and rate at MIN. I got fluctuating otherwise)
- Point 9 voltage readings - Toe = 6.81 vdc, heel = 3.149 vdc. (Taken with animation OFF, and rate at MIN. I got fluctuating otherwise)
Good reference. Keppy, we need to see what yours is doing.
Quote from: R.G. on July 23, 2011, 11:06:34 PM
Quote from: digi2t on July 23, 2011, 09:34:22 PM
- R3 on console board is NOT 1K, it is 1M. Verified by color code. (Might be a biggie here :icon_rolleyes:)
Not a disaster. It's illegible in all of the scans I have. What that controls is how fast the voltage controlling the animation speed can change. 1K doesn't misbias anything or keep it from working. It just changes speed faster. But it will be necessary to get it right eventually.
Good catch!
Quote- Point 8 voltage readings - Toe = 2.62 vdc, heel = 6.35 vdc. (Taken with animation OFF, and rate at MIN. I got fluctuating otherwise)
- Point 9 voltage readings - Toe = 6.81 vdc, heel = 3.149 vdc. (Taken with animation OFF, and rate at MIN. I got fluctuating otherwise)
Good reference. Keppy, we need to see what yours is doing.
My readings overlap with Dino's. The exact readings depend on what formant switches are engaged. Dino's readings look about like my readings in counter mode. In parallel mode, both readings go from about 2.5v (heel) to 4.5v (toe). In vowel mode, they move opposite each other but at different values than in counter mode. There's enough overlap with Dino's readings that I expect to at least hear the effect of the pedal if the rest of the circuit is right. He says the toe moves the wiper to ground, though, which means I wired mine backwards, dangit!
I noticed that when I hit the animation switch, Q2's emitter rises from 1.8v to 2.1v, and B2 rises from .7v to .76v. B1 stays unchanged at 2.45v. Geez I wish I understood oscillators.
Quote from: Keppy on July 24, 2011, 12:37:35 AM
My readings overlap with Dino's. The exact readings depend on what formant switches are engaged. Dino's readings look about like my readings in counter mode. In parallel mode, both readings go from about 2.5v (heel) to 4.5v (toe). In vowel mode, they move opposite each other but at different values than in counter mode. There's enough overlap with Dino's readings that I expect to at least hear the effect of the pedal if the rest of the circuit is right. He says the toe moves the wiper to ground, though, which means I wired mine backwards, dangit!
I always bet that I wire **every** pot backwards, and expect to rewire half of them. :icon_lol:
The important thing here is that you are getting some voltage sweep of about the right amount going into the inputs for the formant filters. With that, you can start debug on the filters, whether animation is running or not.
Quote from: Keppy on July 24, 2011, 12:47:32 AM
I noticed that when I hit the animation switch, Q2's emitter rises from 1.8v to 2.1v, and B2 rises from .7v to .76v. B1 stays unchanged at 2.45v. Geez I wish I understood oscillators.
This is a slippery one. B2 and B1 are connected internally by a pair of resistances that meet at the emitter. In the 2646, these are about 2.5K and 3.5K when it's not tripped, which is when the emitter is below the voltage made by that internal resistor divider. So if the emitter is open, it just looks like two resistors, totalling about 7K. The emitter is set up with a resistance to a higher voltage and a capacitor to ground. The resistor and cap make the voltage on the emitter ramp up from zero.
There is an internal diode at the emitter to the resistive divider. When the emitter gets about 0.6V higher than the internal resistor divider, the diode lets current flow in from the emitter terminal. That current floods the semiconductor resistor bar with conductors and that makes its resistance drop dramatically. In particular, the resistance which used to be about 3.5K between the emitter contact and B1 drops to under 100 ohms, and starts letting massive currents in through the emitter, which makes the resistance drop even further. This keeps up until the emitter current drops below some holding current.
The resistor feeding the cap on the emitter has to be high, so it can't keep the hold current going on its own. If it's big enough, the capacitor runs out of juice, and the emitter current drops below the hold current, the internal resistances revert to full resistance, and the voltage on the internal resistor divider leaps back up to the no-emitter-current value, so the emitter current *really* goes to zero, and the cap on the emitter starts charging again.
The voltage on the emitter ramps up at a rate determined by the resistance feeding it and the cap to ground. It ramps up till it trips the emitter into conduction, at which point, a big spike of current goes into the emitter. This raises B1 in a short sharp spike of voltage, and pulls B2 down sharply. This spike is *fast* and may be over in microseconds. B2 is coupled through a capacitor in a way that trips the flipflop.
The voltages you describe indicate that the UJT is turning on once, and never turning off. B2 should be higher than B1 always, and the emitter should ramp up to about 5V by the simulation that I still don't quite trust to be perfect. But it is representative.
Quote from: R.G. on July 24, 2011, 01:04:19 AM
This is a slippery one. B2 and B1 are connected internally by a pair of resistances that meet at the emitter. In the 2646, these are about 2.5K and 3.5K when it's not tripped, which is when the emitter is below the voltage made by that internal resistor divider. So if the emitter is open, it just looks like two resistors, totalling about 7K. The emitter is set up with a resistance to a higher voltage and a capacitor to ground. The resistor and cap make the voltage on the emitter ramp up from zero.
There is an internal diode at the emitter to the resistive divider. When the emitter gets about 0.6V higher than the internal resistor divider, the diode lets current flow in from the emitter terminal. That current floods the semiconductor resistor bar with conductors and that makes its resistance drop dramatically. In particular, the resistance which used to be about 3.5K between the emitter contact and B1 drops to under 100 ohms, and starts letting massive currents in through the emitter, which makes the resistance drop even further. This keeps up until the emitter current drops below some holding current.
The resistor feeding the cap on the emitter has to be high, so it can't keep the hold current going on its own. If it's big enough, the capacitor runs out of juice, and the emitter current drops below the hold current, the internal resistances revert to full resistance, and the voltage on the internal resistor divider leaps back up to the no-emitter-current value, so the emitter current *really* goes to zero, and the cap on the emitter starts charging again.
The voltage on the emitter ramps up at a rate determined by the resistance feeding it and the cap to ground. It ramps up till it trips the emitter into conduction, at which point, a big spike of current goes into the emitter. This raises B1 in a short sharp spike of voltage, and pulls B2 down sharply. This spike is *fast* and may be over in microseconds. B2 is coupled through a capacitor in a way that trips the flipflop.
The voltages you describe indicate that the UJT is turning on once, and never turning off. B2 should be higher than B1 always, and the emitter should ramp up to about 5V by the simulation that I still don't quite trust to be perfect. But it is representative.
I measured the pin resistances with the 2646 out of the circuit. I got 7k from B1 to B2, but I got 12M from emitter to either base.
Another thought, R.G.: Your explanation makes it sound like the UJT is sensitive to current on its emitter, which is tied to the emitter of Q1. Doesn't that make the hfe of Q1 pretty important? Should I experiment with substitutions for that transistor?
Quote from: Keppy on July 24, 2011, 01:36:13 AM
I measured the pin resistances with the 2646 out of the circuit. I got 7k from B1 to B2, but I got 12M from emitter to either base.
That's about right for when the emitter is not conducting current above its trip-over current.
Quote from: Keppy on July 24, 2011, 01:50:37 AM
Another thought, R.G.: Your explanation makes it sound like the UJT is sensitive to current on its emitter, which is tied to the emitter of Q1. Doesn't that make the hfe of Q1 pretty important? Should I experiment with substitutions for that transistor?
It doesn't, but only because the emitter of Q1 is separated from the emitter of Q2 by a big resistance. That's why I was wondering about the settings of the trimmer and the animation pot. If those are too low, the emitter can latch on.
When the emitter turns on, the current into the emitter and through B1 comes from the timing capacitor. The emitter-B2 resistance turns very small and it discharges the capacitor through the emitter terminal because that suddenly looks like a low resistance. The currents can be big, as much as nearly 1A. The emitter-B1 "on" resistance stays low until the current drops below some 'hold' current. If the resistance feeding the capacitor and emitter is big, it doesn't let current through equal to the hold current on the emitter, and when the capacitor is drained, the current drops and the emitter-B1 turns off.
With a big resistance between Q1 emitter and Q2 emitter, it can't latch on and stay, no matter what Q1 is doing. If that gets too low, then yes, it can latch on and never un-latch because the current into the emitter through the timing resistor will hold it on.
QuoteMy readings overlap with Dino's. The exact readings depend on what formant switches are engaged. Dino's readings look about like my readings in counter mode. In parallel mode, both readings go from about 2.5v (heel) to 4.5v (toe). In vowel mode, they move opposite each other but at different values than in counter mode. There's enough overlap with Dino's readings that I expect to at least hear the effect of the pedal if the rest of the circuit is right. He says the toe moves the wiper to ground, though, which means I wired mine backwards, dangit!
I hadn't thought of taking measurements with the different formant switches on/off. I'll do that now. Be right back....
All measures = VDC, and all measures taken with Animation OFF.
All Formants OFF, pedal movement made no change; 8 = 2.225, 9 = 3.807
Parallel - Point 8 - TOE = 2.785, HEEL = 5.91
Parallel - Point 9 - TOE = 3.00, HEEL = 6.47
Counter - Point 8 - TOE = 2.611, HEEL = 6.38
Counter - Point 9 - TOE = 6.75, HEEL = 3.069
Vowel - Point 8 - TOE = 6.23, HEEL = 5.84
Vowel - Point 9 - TOE = 3.110, HEEL = 5.68
More fodder to chew :icon_wink:
Quote from: R.G. on July 24, 2011, 10:46:21 AM
Quote from: Keppy on July 24, 2011, 01:50:37 AM
Another thought, R.G.: Your explanation makes it sound like the UJT is sensitive to current on its emitter, which is tied to the emitter of Q1. Doesn't that make the hfe of Q1 pretty important? Should I experiment with substitutions for that transistor?
It doesn't, but only because the emitter of Q1 is separated from the emitter of Q2 by a big resistance. That's why I was wondering about the settings of the trimmer and the animation pot. If those are too low, the emitter can latch on.
With a big resistance between Q1 emitter and Q2 emitter, it can't latch on and stay, no matter what Q1 is doing. If that gets too low, then yes, it can latch on and never un-latch because the current into the emitter through the timing resistor will hold it on.
So too little resistance in that spot causes Q2 to latch on, while too much prevents the timing cap from discharging, also causing it to get stuck?
Quote from: Keppy on July 24, 2011, 02:38:44 PM
So too little resistance in that spot causes Q2 to latch on, while too much prevents the timing cap from discharging, also causing it to get stuck?
Here's one fairly readable write up on it.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/8.html (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/8.html)
Too much also keeps it from running. The example in that writeup is the 2N2647, not the 2646. but they're close.
Thanks! That article helped my understanding along, though it didn't give me any ideas for this circuit.
I have another question, though. Shouldn't console board C3 block low frequencies? And isn't that right on the LFO output? :-\ What am I missing here?
Quote from: Keppy on July 24, 2011, 04:01:16 PM
I have another question, though. Shouldn't console board C3 block low frequencies? And isn't that right on the LFO output? :-\ What am I missing here?
Yes and no.
C3 does block low frequencies, but no, it's not the LFO output. Console pads 25 and 26 are the LFO outputs. What C3 does is couple the very fast down-going spike from B2 of Q2 into the flipflop made by Q3 and Q4. That flipflop changes state once per spike output from Q2. The two collector outputs are the actual LFO outputs.
Did a little tinkering. You should be able to trigger the flipflop manually.
If you pull out Q2, and connect one lead of a 4.7K resistor to the B2 pin, you should be able to trigger a flip by touching the other end of the resistor to the B1 pin or to ground. It should flip once per time you tag it to ground. There is some uncertainty, because you will inevitably bounce a little when you touch ground, and it may trigger more than once per touch.
Hi guys,
I've managed to get my hands on another unit. I should have it sometime at the end of next week. I'll be able to do some side by side comparisons, and I'll report my findings. I'm curious to see if that piggyback resistor will be in there.
You guys need anything, don't be shy.
Dino
QuoteI've managed to get my hands on another unit. I should have it sometime at the end of next week.
:icon_eek: Really? Where are these things coming from all of the sudden?!? I need one...deep in my soul.
I dunno, must be due to the increased solar flare activity we're having this year. :icon_lol:
dude, did you get that other one on ebay?
:icon_mrgreen:
Yup. Apparently, the pedal and the animation doesn't work (sound familiar?), but fuzz and formants are fine. I'll fix it up, study it for posterity, and flip it.
I had some cash to invest. At the very worst, we learn some more about these units, and I break even. Or, I find a nice Ringstinger to trade for it.
i'm telling ya,. once i get the clone of my own built, i may ditch the original, too...lol.
naaaah...maybe donate it to the rocknroll hall of fame or something..this thing needs to be appreciated!!
sorry i lost track of this thread, for some reason i wasn't being notified of new posts...very weird!!
keppy, anything i can do, say the word...i'll break the box open and have at it.
thanks to all who participate in resurecting this here behemoth!!!!
Quote from: R.G. on July 24, 2011, 05:10:48 PM
Did a little tinkering. You should be able to trigger the flipflop manually.
If you pull out Q2, and connect one lead of a 4.7K resistor to the B2 pin, you should be able to trigger a flip by touching the other end of the resistor to the B1 pin or to ground.
That worked! So...what does that mean?
Each flip moved the voltage on the two test pins between .06v and ~15.9v. What does that say about the problem? Leaky UJT? Coupling cap issue? Seems like I'm missing that spike of current that's supposed to happen.
Crap, I forgot that I measured 15-16v between the collectors in the flip-flop even when they both measured .06v to ground. UJT working too fast? Timing cap/resistor issues?
Jimi/Dino, could you verify some values for me? R1-12 and C1-5 on the console board. Every measurement I take shows the components to be operational, and yet I don't have animation. I have verified my build against the schem, so I suppose I should verify the schem against your units. Maybe start with R7 (listed as 220).
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 11, 2011, 10:52:10 PM
control board transistor voltages all sliders @ min, bypass on, fx on
q2 is oddball, it has TWO BASES
i don't know what the first terminal is, so...
? 7.2 - 4.9 keeps cycling
b1 14.4
b2 .3
It seems like whatever's happening with the rest of the circuit, my B1 & B2 voltages should match Jimi's, right? Doesn't the 7k internal resistance of the UJT create a basic voltage divider with R6 & R7? Ignoring the tiny R7 for a moment, shouldn't a 10k and a 7k dividing a 36v drop result in 14-15v no matter what? Yet I'm getting only 2.4v off the 10k (and hence at B1), leading me to believe that the internal resistance of the UJT is falling when I power up the circuit, to much less than 1k. Is it fried?
:icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
I believe there is a typo on the schem. C3 is listed as .01uF, but my little fishy in the tank is wearing 1uF colors (non-polarized) :icon_surprised:. The capacitor colors are (tropical fish) Brown, Black, Orange, White, Red. My online calculator tells me 1uF/250V, and not .01uF as stated in the schem. Try that. :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
Here is the list you requested, this is based on visual color code confirmation;
R1 - 47K
R2 - 100K
R3 - 1M
R4 - 500K TRIMMER
R5 - 10K
R6 - 10K
R7 - 220R
R8 - 47K
R9 - 4.7K
R10 - 4.7K
R11 - 4.7K
R12 - 47K
C1 - 2.5uF/64V (Polar)
C2 - 1uF/40V (Polar)
C3 - 1uF/250V (Non-polar)
C4 - 470nF/250V (Non-polar)
C5 - 470nF/250V (Non-polar)
There you go Kep, maybe we found your fly in the ointment. Just out of curiousity, would Q1 have been damaged if a 1K resistor had been used, instead of a 1M?
Awaiting with bated breath.....
Quote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 01:55:22 AM
That worked! So...what does that mean?
Each flip moved the voltage on the two test pins between .06v and ~15.9v. What does that say about the problem? Leaky UJT? Coupling cap issue? Seems like I'm missing that spike of current that's supposed to happen.
That's what that means - the flipflop works if you can manually trigger it, so there is something that's a problem with the UJT. It could also mean the UJT is running way faster than it's supposed to.
Quote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 02:13:46 AM
Crap, I forgot that I measured 15-16v between the collectors in the flip-flop even when they both measured .06v to ground. UJT working too fast? Timing cap/resistor issues?
If the flipflop is working, there will always be 15-16V between the two collectors, because one will be at 15-16V, and the other will be at nearly ground; they just change positions too fast to see with a meter. Both positions produce the same voltage, but alternating polarities. Here's a thought - measure the difference between the two collectors on an AC scale. This puts a capacitor in series inside the meter to keep the DC out. If you get a significant reading, then they're flopping but too fast to read on DC. Works sometimes.
Quote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 02:28:39 AM
It seems like whatever's happening with the rest of the circuit, my B1 & B2 voltages should match Jimi's, right?
They should be similar. "Match" is too harsh a word to use on things like JFETs and UJTs. :icon_biggrin:
QuoteDoesn't the 7k internal resistance of the UJT create a basic voltage divider with R6 & R7? Ignoring the tiny R7 for a moment, shouldn't a 10k and a 7k dividing a 36v drop result in 14-15v no matter what?
For DC, yes. If you opened the emitter to preclude the UJT from cycling or latching on, you should see that. However, if you're working with only a meter, not an oscilloscope, then what happens with AC waveforms is too fast for the meter to tell you much unless you really understand what the meter is doing. Analog meters average the incoming waveform and tell you the average because of the inertia of the meter movement. Digital meters may average, may sample, may just get confused.
For debugging mixed AC and DC cases, you really need an oscilloscope. We'll figure ways to work around this. Actually, for this setup, you could use one of the sound-card oscilloscope programs if you protected the inputs from the 35V. It would show you the ramp/fall on the timing cap OK. Might miss the spikes on the bases, as those are *fast* transitions.
QuoteYet I'm getting only 2.4v off the 10k (and hence at B1), leading me to believe that the internal resistance of the UJT is falling when I power up the circuit, to much less than 1k. Is it fried?
UJTs are supposed to have a trip-over mode. If they stay latched on, then the resistance stays low. A triggering problem on the emitter would do this to a working UJT. This is what I have been suspecting ever since you posted your voltages - that the UJT is either not recovering from the first trip-over or is cycling so fast that you can't see it.
Quote from: digi2t on July 27, 2011, 08:27:45 AM
I believe there is a typo on the schem. C3 is listed as .01uF, but my little fishy in the tank is wearing 1uF colors (non-polarized) :icon_surprised:. The capacitor colors are (tropical fish) Brown, Black, Orange, White, Red. My online calculator tells me 1uF/250V, and not .01uF as stated in the schem. Try that.
If C3 were too small, it could keep the flipflop from triggering on the spikes from B2. Worth a try.
I suspect from the history that the schematic was drawn and printed up early on, and final tinkering was done on the production line that did not match the printed schemos. It used to take a long time - months! - to get printed stuff done, and for short-run projects like this, they'd have done the printing, then found out that they had to modify it in actual production. That matches the add-on amplifier too. We may find several such issues.
In fact, it would be really useful if someone who has a real unit would just check out the whole schematic for parts values. We now have three places where things on a real board do not match the schemo; the amplifier, the 1M/150K and now C3. It's a lot of work, but if you were so inclined... :icon_biggrin:
QuoteJust out of curiousity, would Q1 have been damaged if a 1K resistor had been used, instead of a 1M?
Maybe, but I don't think it's likely. Not with a couple of 500K pots in the emitter. Maybe if both were turned to zero. Maybe.
hi guys.
that's it...i'm gonna open up mine shortly and type in the value on every single cap and resistor on the unit. i'm in the middle of doing a couple mods on some of my pedalboard pedals (i figured out a way to make a behringer vd1 not suck!! lol...and STILL be quieter than an EH BMP)
give me a little bit.
maybe we can make a deal...as dino's unit is already apart, maybe he can do the console board, and i'll do the fall board?
that way i don't have to dissassemble the whole bloody thing again.
it's 3:09 ct time...gimme about an hour, and i'll get on it.
Quotemaybe we can make a deal...as dino's unit is already apart, maybe he can do the console board, and i'll do the fall board?
You're on brother! I'll try and get them all this afternoon. R.G.'s right (what else is new :icon_wink:), a thorough perusal of all the components is in order. It's just not right that Kep's got so much trouble getting it going, unless the trannies are to blame. Let's beat this sucker into submission!
All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers.FRANCOIS FENELON
time to kick a little ass, and chew a little bubblegum bro.
i dunno about you, i'm all outta bubblegum, so....
it's time to put the fear of god into these units, and make 'em give up their fuggin' secrets so their occult asses can live again!!
let the measuring commence!!
thanks dino!!
Quote from: R.G. on July 27, 2011, 12:52:16 PM
Here's a thought - measure the difference between the two collectors on an AC scale. This puts a capacitor in series inside the meter to keep the DC out. If you get a significant reading, then they're flopping but too fast to read on DC. Works sometimes.
I'll try that.
Quote from: R.G.
Quote from: KeppyDoesn't the 7k internal resistance of the UJT create a basic voltage divider with R6 & R7? Ignoring the tiny R7 for a moment, shouldn't a 10k and a 7k dividing a 36v drop result in 14-15v no matter what?
For DC, yes. If you opened the emitter to preclude the UJT from cycling or latching on, you should see that. However, if you're working with only a meter, not an oscilloscope, then what happens with AC waveforms is too fast for the meter to tell you much unless you really understand what the meter is doing. Analog meters average the incoming waveform and tell you the average because of the inertia of the meter movement. Digital meters may average, may sample, may just get confused.
I don't understand why Jimi got stable readings on the bases, then.
Quote from: R.G.
Quote from: KeppyYet I'm getting only 2.4v off the 10k (and hence at B1), leading me to believe that the internal resistance of the UJT is falling when I power up the circuit, to much less than 1k. Is it fried?
UJTs are supposed to have a trip-over mode. If they stay latched on, then the resistance stays low. A triggering problem on the emitter would do this to a working UJT. This is what I have been suspecting ever since you posted your voltages - that the UJT is either not recovering from the first trip-over or is cycling so fast that you can't see it.
I understood that the emitter-B1 resistance went low. The reduction of overall resistance to <1k makes me suspect that the emitter-B2 resistance is also extremely low. I didn't see that mentioned in the description of operation, which is why it appeared to me to be a red flag. I was expecting more like 2.5-3.5k.
Quote from: digi2t on July 27, 2011, 08:27:45 AM
I believe there is a typo on the schem. C3 is listed as .01uF, but my little fishy in the tank is wearing 1uF colors (non-polarized) :icon_surprised:. The capacitor colors are (tropical fish) Brown, Black, Orange, White, Red. My online calculator tells me 1uF/250V, and not .01uF as stated in the schem. Try that.
Thanks! I'll try swapping that.
Quote from: R.G. on July 27, 2011, 12:52:16 PM
We now have three places where things on a real board do not match the schemo; the amplifier, the 1M/150K and now C3. It's a lot of work, but if you were so inclined... :icon_biggrin:
Wait, what? I don't remember that! Do you mean Console board R3 (1k vs. 1M)? Did I miss something?
QuoteI suspect from the history that the schematic was drawn and printed up early on, and final tinkering was done on the production line that did not match the printed schemos. It used to take a long time - months! - to get printed stuff done, and for short-run projects like this, they'd have done the printing, then found out that they had to modify it in actual production. That matches the add-on amplifier too. We may find several such issues.
Froggin' eh bubba! Here is the list of caps and resistors. Again, a couple of surprises. From the top, console board;
R1 - 47K
R2 - 100K
R3 - 1M
R4 - 500K TRIMMER
R5 - 10K
R6 - 10K
R7 - 220R
R8 - 47K
R9 - 4.7K
R10 - 4.7K
R11 - 4.7K
R12 - 47K
R13 - 100K
R14 - 6.8K
R15 - 10K
R16 - 100K
R17 - 8.2K
R18 - 120K
R19 - 6.8K
R20 - 10K TRIMMER
R21 - 15K
R22 - *** NO RESISTOR ON MY BOARD!!!*** I HAVE JUMPER, NOT THE 100R MARKED ON THE SCHEM.
R23 - 3.3K
R24 - 47K
R25 - 4.7K
R26 - 1.8K
R27 - 4.7K
R28 - 2.2K
R29 - 2.2K
R30 - 2.2K
R31 - 4.7K
R32 - 470K
C1 - 2.5uF/64V (Polar)
C2 - 1uF/40V (Polar)
C3 - 1uF/250V (Non-polar)
C4 - 470nF/250V (Non-polar)
C5 - 470nF/250V (Non-polar)
C6 - 1uF/40V (Polar) I THINK, HARD TO READ, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE
C7 - 1uF/250V (Non-polar) ANOTHER ERROR ON THE PLAN HERE!!
C8 - 100uF/40V (Polar)
C9 - 10uF/40V (Polar)
C10 - 10uF/40V (Polar)
C11 - 100uF/64V (Polar)
C12 - 50uF/40V (Polar)
C13 - 0.22uF/250V (Non-polar)
Now excuse me, as I have to go clean my dagger :icon_twisted:
i got slightly tied up, but will be getting to it soon...had a computer meltdown, took til now to get this pos dell to work!! :icon_evil: :icon_evil:
thanks dino!!
Quote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 04:13:19 PM
I don't understand why Jimi got stable readings on the bases, then.
Me neither. I'm in full debug mode, where I suspect everything that even faintly looks/sounds funny. It's a difference, there's trouble there, lessee... what could be wrong?
QuoteI understood that the emitter-B1 resistance went low. The reduction of overall resistance to <1k makes me suspect that the emitter-B2 resistance is also extremely low. I didn't see that mentioned in the description of operation, which is why it appeared to me to be a red flag. I was expecting more like 2.5-3.5k.
It's suspicious, all right.
Quote
Wait, what? I don't remember that! Do you mean Console board R3 (1k vs. 1M)? Did I miss something?
On one of Jimi's photos, there is a 1M that is not flat on the PCB, and looked to me like it was pasted on after assembly. It was there, and paralleled a 150K. It's here in the forum somewhere.
yes it is....r 33 i believe it is. just cleaning up from the stuff i was doing...modded 3 pedals on my board today, so it's been productive. looking for my little radio shack resistor/cap code thingy so i can read the codes on the resistors. gimme a little bit, i should be starting shortly. sorry for the delay!!
Quote from: R.G. on July 27, 2011, 04:45:49 PM
On one of Jimi's photos, there is a 1M that is not flat on the PCB, and looked to me like it was pasted on after assembly. It was there, and paralleled a 150K. It's here in the forum somewhere.
Oh right, that. Dino said it wasn't in his unit. Since Jimi confirmed the resistors were in parallel, that would only reduce the resistance there to about 130k. Didn't seem worth worrying about, given those two facts. That appears to control the bias to Q7, though, if that appears related to any of my problems.
Speaking of transistor biasing, I keep forgetting to change the 47k on the terminal strip circuit to 68k as confirmed in Dino's unit. I wouldn't bother, but I noticed some nasty distortion when I play really hard, and I was hoping that would help. Now that I think about it, though, if that transistor is biased closer to zero than to the supply, that would actually make it WORSE, wouldn't it? Underbiasing causing clipping of the bottom of the waveform as the transistor turns off, and all that. If that's even where the distortion is happening. Whatever, I guess I should just try it next time the iron's hot.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 27, 2011, 05:31:02 PM
looking for my little radio shack resistor/cap code thingy so i can read the codes on the resistors. gimme a little bit, i should be starting shortly. sorry for the delay!!
Bad beer rots our young guts but vodka goes well – get some now. (includes gold/silver/none tolerance bands)
Bad Boys 'Ravage' Our Young Girls, But Violet Gives Willingly
Big Boys Race Our Young Girls, But Violet Generally Wins (more PC)
Badly Burnt Resistors On Your Ground Bus Void General Warranties
Bowling Balls Roll Over Your Grandpa But Victim Gets Well
there are many, many more.
Black = 0
Brown = 1
Red = 2
Orange = 3
Yellow = 4
Green = 5
Blue = 6
Violet = 7
Gray = 8
White = 9
:icon_redface: :icon_redface: :icon_redface: :icon_redface:
lol
i'm on it!!
My two "bible" pages;
http://www.hobby-hour.com/electronics/resistorcalculator.php (http://www.hobby-hour.com/electronics/resistorcalculator.php) for resistors.
and,
http://www.csgnetwork.com/capcccalc.html (http://www.csgnetwork.com/capcccalc.html), or http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/capac.htm (http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/capac.htm) for capacitors.
I keep them in My Favorites.
remember too tho, that i modded a couple pieces...
reading values now...gonna take a little bit...stay tuned please :icon_biggrin:
guys, bear with me...i've found a bunch of discrepancies so far...up to r33...the schematic is afu!!
here ya go... i think i know what keppy's problems are...drummers on lsd should never try and draw up a schematic...even tho they lucked out building the actual device...probably a happy accident!!! read 'em and weep!!!!
r1 470r
r2 33k
r3 10k
r4 4.7k
r5 22k
r6 1m
r7 680k
r8 680k
r9 1k
r10 4.7k
r11 10k
r12 100k
r13 10k
r14 4.7k
r15 47k
r16 69k
r17 1m
r18 47k
r19 4.7k
r20 22k
r21 22k
r22 4.7k
r23 680k
r24 47k
r25 470r
r26 47k
r27 470k
r28 3.3k
r29 trimmer, 100r on mine(150r stock) set 92r
r30 330r
r31 doesn't exist on the board or schem!!
r32 4.7k...mistake, schem says 47r
r33 150k w 1m paralleled
r34 22k
r35 47k
r36 68k
r37 precision 1%, 4.32k
r38 4.7k
r39 22k
r40 1k
r41 trimmer, 500r mine reads 414r
r42 82k
r43 10k
r44 22k
r45 47k
r46 4.7k
r47 1k
r48 4.7k
r49 47k
r50 150k
r51 22k
r52 22k
r53 150k
r54 47k
r55 trimmer, 50k mine reads 40.5k
r56 4.7k
r57 68k
r58 precision 1%, 4.3k (mine 4.2k)
r59 1k
r60 4.7k
r61 22k
r62 trimmer, 500r mine 475r
r63 82k
r64 10k
r65 trimmer, 25 k mine reads 24.3k
r66 47k
r67 4.7k
r68 1k
r69 4.7k
r70 150k
r71 47k
r72 22k
r73 4.7k
r74 1.9r...schem says 3.9 orange,white,gold
r75 10k
r76 i think was 10k originally, 27k in mine(mod)
not shown on schematic!!
r77 trimmer, mine reads 29.6k, probably 50k
will start on the caps as soon as my eyes stop bugging out...even with my glasses, i needed to use the magnifying glass from my helping hands thing... :icon_eek: :icon_mrgreen:
Those are on the fall plate/filter board, right?
yep, that's the fall plate bro.
gonna start on the caps next. all the ELECTROLYTICS on the fall board are i believe what's on the schem, other than the input one i changed from 10mf to i think 22mf@100v.
i have no idea how to read tropical fish caps, but i did find my rat shack thingy...so i'll do my best. it's hard sometimes to tell color from color for me, cuz some of the stuff is kinda faded a little..bright light, glasses and a magnifying glass should help.
i shoulda took the console board...lot less parts!! lol!
Jimi, R31 is a 25k trimmer on the edge of the board connected to point 4. R76 is a 33k resistor that is out of order in the schematic (right at the beginning from point 3 to ground). R74 is a lamp resistor which I have omitted (though it's on R.G.'s layout). Thanks for the info!
Dino, could you verify R32 on the fall plate? Jimi's is different than the schematic, but that resistor connects to R33, the one that in his unit is paralleled with a 1M. Since you don't have the added 1M, I wonder whether yours will match the schem or not.
Thanks a ton guys, hopefully this info will get me up and running! Hopefully before I move next week... :icon_eek:
Here you go Jimi:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Tropical_Fish_Color_Chart.png)
I did a compare with the spreadsheet I made for the parts for Kep. Here are the pithed-out differences:
R16 6.8K or 68K
r18 47K or 470k
R33 150K vs 150 paral 1M
R36 6.8K or 68K
R38 4.7K or 47K
R42 12K or 82K
R57 6.8K or 68K
R60 4.7K or 47K
R63 12K or 82K
R74 1.9R or 3.9R
R76 27K? 33K?
I am slightly color blind. For some reason, I have problems with 4.7K and 47K all the time and generally meter them when I run into them. This makes me very sensitive to missing a color code band. It's possible that the resistor colors have shifted in the decades since they were made. I notice that many of the differences fall into the range of possibly misinterpreting a digit in color code, particularly 4.7K/47K/470K, and 6.8K/68K. Did you happen to meter those? I'm thinking that over time there may have a color shift than makes the multiplier (red/orange/yellow) harder to tell. It's also easy to misinterpret the placement of decimal points on the schematic; I may have mucked that up.
Also, 12K vs 82K is a single band difference, in this case brown for gray, but that's a bigger color shift. I may have read the schemo wrong.
i will check, rg...it's indeed hard to tell sometimes!! but i'll re-check and then meter them. gimme a little bit.
R.G., you can add to that list from the console board:
R14 (6.8k in Dino's, 10k in the schem, 100k in the BOM)
R15 (22k in schem & BOM, 10k on Dino's)
R22 (Jumper on his, 100r on schem/BOM, probably doesn't matter for the power supply.)
R14 is wired into the formant switches, which may be why mine don't work. R15 might have a role there as well.
Also on the console board:
C3 (1u Dino/.01u schem) - coupling cap, mentioned earlier
C4 & C5 (470n Dino/4.7n schem) - Argh! Right in the flip-flop!
C7 (1u Dino/.01u schem) - supply filter cap, post-regulator. No biggie, as I'm already pretty noise-free.
ok, i rechecked and metered. i DID misread a couple...sorry!!
here ya go:
R16 6.8K or 68K.....mine 5.5k
r18 47K or 470k......mine 390k
R33 150K vs 150 paral 1M......mine (combined) 29.6k
R36 6.8K or 68K......mine 69.1k
R38 4.7K or 47K......mine 4.5k
R42 12K or 82K......mine 9.4k
R57 6.8K or 68K......mine 70.2k
R60 4.7K or 47K......mine 4.5k
R63 12K or 82K......mine 9.4k
R74 1.9R or 3.9R.....mine 2.25r
R76 27K? 33K?......mine 27k
r31 on mine is trimmer (sorry, eyes were bugging out) reads 5.3k...schem says 25k!! mine is 5.3, across the two outside lugs.
ok, please disregard the previous listing...
this is the updated fall plate board resistor bom..
keppy, man, i am so sorry i didn't fuggin' do this in the first place and save ya all that aggravation, bro..
r1 470r
r2 33k
r3 10k
r4 4.7k
r5 22k
r6 1m
r7 680k
r8 680k
r9 1k
r10 4.7k
r11 10k
r12 100k
r13 10k
r14 4.7k
r15 47k
r16 6.8k
r17 1m
r18 470k mine 390k
r19 4.7k
r20 22k
r21 22k
r22 4.7k
r23 680k
r24 47k
r25 470r
r26 47k
r27 470k
r28 3.3k
r29 trimmer, 100r on mine(150r stock) set 92r
r30 330r
r31 schem says 25k!! mine is 5.3
r32 4.7k...mistake, schem says 47r
r33 150k w 1m paralleled, mine (combined) 29.6k
r34 22k
r35 47k
r36 68k
r37 precision 1%, 4.32k
r38 4.7k
r39 22k
r40 1k
r41 trimmer, 500r mine reads 414r
r42 12k
r43 10k
r44 22k
r45 47k
r46 4.7k
r47 1k
r48 4.7k
r49 47k
r50 150k
r51 22k
r52 22k
r53 150k
r54 47k
r55 trimmer, 50k mine reads 40.5k
r56 4.7k
r57 68k
r58 precision 1%, 4.3k (mine 4.2k)
r59 1k
r60 4.7k
r61 22k
r62 trimmer, 500r mine 475r
r63 82k
r64 10k
r65 trimmer, 25 k mine reads 24.3k
r66 47k
r67 4.7k
r68 1k
r69 4.7k
r70 150k
r71 47k
r72 22k
r73 4.7k
r74 1.9r...schem says 3.9 orange,white,gold..mine2.25r
r75 10k
r76 i think was 10k originally, 27k in mine(mod)
not shown on schematic!!
r77 trimmer, mine reads 29.6k, probably 50k
caps...electrolytic or tropical fish unless noted
sorry...too burnt to try and figure out the color code thing yet, so i'm just posting the colors of the trop caps.
c1 10mf@65v stock, mine 22mf@100v
c2 brown black yellow white red
c3 brown black orange white red
c4 brown black yellow white orange
c5 brown black yellow white (can't tell, orange or red)
c6 10mf@100v
c7 brown black yellow white red
c8 brown black yellow white red
c9 brown black yellow white red
c10 yellow purple red white red
c11 yellow purple red white red
c12 red yellow white red yellow
c13 10mf@100v
c14 2.2mf@100v
c15 10mf@100v
c16 brown black orange white red
c17 orange yellow white red
c18 brown black orange white red
c19 brown black yellow white red
c20 orange yellow white red
c21 10mf@100v
c22 2.5mf@100v
c23 2.5mf@100v
c24 10mf@100v
c25 brown black orange white red
c26 brown black yellow white red
c27 brown black orange white red
c28 brown black yellow white red
c29 tantalum, orange, brown white
c30 brown black yellow white red
c31 10mf@100v
c32 2.5mf@100v
Thanks again, Jimi! I notice you measured R63 as 9.4k, but listed it as 82k in your final list (it's 12k in the schem). Which is it?
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 27, 2011, 09:57:29 PM
ok, i rechecked and metered. i DID misread a couple...sorry!!
No biggie. That's what cross checking is for. I'm just glad you're there to do it.
I have to say that this kind of thing - the complexity, the uncertainty about what to compare it to, etc. is what kept me from doing this back when. No way to ever see that it would get right.
R16 6.8K or 68K.....mine 5.5k [I think that makes it a 6.8K as measured in circuit; things measure a bit small in circuit because of the stuff in parallel]
6.8K seems more right based on what it does in the circuit.
R36 6.8K or 68K......mine 69.1k [call it 68K]
R57 6.8K or 68K......mine 70.2k [68k here]
It makes sense that these should both be 68K, given what they do in the circuit.
r18 47K or 470k......mine 390k [likewise: I'd call it 470K]
From circuit function, can't guess, although 470 seems more right to me than 47K. Go with 470K.
R33 150K vs 150 paral 1M......mine (combined) 29.6k [!?]
The combined in-circuit reading would be that low, because other stuff is in parallel. Go with 150K and maybe have to tinker.
R38 4.7K or 47K......mine 4.5k [4.7k]
R60 4.7K or 47K......mine 4.5k [4.7k]
From the schemo, these should match. The exact value is probably not critical. 4.7K does not raise any questions.
R42 12K or 82K......mine 9.4k [probably 12k then]
R63 12K or 82K......mine 9.4k[12k]
These oughta match from filter to filter, and the 12K seems more reasonable to me than 82K.
R74 1.9R or 3.9R.....mine 2.25r [3.9 most likely]
R76 27K? 33K?......mine 27k [we'll go with 27k]
Quoter31 on mine is trimmer (sorry, eyes were bugging out) reads 5.3k...schem says 25k!! mine is 5.3, across the two outside lugs.
That's OK. It's set up as a variable resistor, so the resistance from outside to outside goes up and down with the setting. I'd say that 25K is right, as it can be set down to the 5.3K you measure.
Thanks very much for digging through that!
Quote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 09:04:52 PM
R14 (6.8k in Dino's, 10k in the schem, 100k in the BOM)
R15 (22k in schem & BOM, 10k on Dino's)
R22 (Jumper on his, 100r on schem/BOM, probably doesn't matter for the power supply.)
R14 and 15 on the console have to do with how much of the control voltage from the pedal/animation gets into the respective filters. I think they may have tinkered these on test. We should be prepared to as well. R22 makes it easier on Q6, less power to burn up in the transistor. Not critical until Q6 oveheats. :icon_biggrin:
QuoteR14 is wired into the formant switches, which may be why mine don't work. R15 might have a role there as well.
I'm forming a test process in my head. I think the thing to do is to get the filters to where signal goes through them, then to feed a voltage/pot signal into points 8 and 9 on the filter board. We know these voltages are between 2.4V and ? 6.5V? on the measured units. So we get one filter, then the other to respond and filter with that voltage. It cuts down on the "everything has to work before anything can work".
Quote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 09:14:19 PM
Also on the console board:
C3 (1u Dino/.01u schem) - coupling cap, mentioned earlier
C4 & C5 (470n Dino/4.7n schem) - Argh! Right in the flip-flop!
C7 (1u Dino/.01u schem) - supply filter cap, post-regulator. No biggie, as I'm already pretty noise-free.
Updating.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 27, 2011, 10:11:05 PM
ok, please disregard the previous listing...
this is the updated fall plate board resistor bom..
You guys are updating so fast I'm having trouble keeping up in the spreadsheet! :icon_lol:
I think I got all those.
AGH! two new posts!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 27, 2011, 10:42:15 PM
c1 ...
Looks consistent down to here:
Quotec29 tantalum, orange, brown white
Schemo says 220pF. I didn't know they made tantalum that small. That doesn't mean they didn't. Maybe dip ceramic??
Quote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 10:47:13 PM
Thanks again, Jimi! I notice you measured R63 as 9.4k, but listed it as 82k in your final list (it's 12k in the schem). Which is it?
I think it's 12K.
The cap values look pretty good, with the following notes:
C12 is supposed to be .22uF, which would be RRYWR. I suspect there is a double band of red there that you read as one band, otherwise the multiplier's way too big.
Same for C17 & C20, which should be .33uF (OOYWR). That matches with your readings if the orange band is double-thick.
C26 & C30 are .15uF in the schem (BrGYWR). Either you mistook green for black or the caps in your unit are .1uF. If there is a discrepancy, I'm guessing it's not big enough to matter.
In short, these all appear to match the schem. Thanks for the hard work!
Quote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 10:47:13 PM
Thanks again, Jimi! I notice you measured R63 as 9.4k, but listed it as 82k in your final list (it's 12k in the schem). Which is it?
r 63 is reading 9.4k on my pedal. sorry bro!!
Quote from: R.G. on July 27, 2011, 11:00:54 PM
QuoteR14 is wired into the formant switches, which may be why mine don't work. R15 might have a role there as well.
I'm forming a test process in my head. I think the thing to do is to get the filters to where signal goes through them, then to feed a voltage/pot signal into points 8 and 9 on the filter board. We know these voltages are between 2.4V and ? 6.5V? on the measured units. So we get one filter, then the other to respond and filter with that voltage. It cuts down on the "everything has to work before anything can work".
I might have been unclear about this. The filters in my unit pass signal. They just don't filter, except for a small amount of treble filtering in parallel mode.
Quote
You guys are updating so fast I'm having trouble keeping up in the spreadsheet! :icon_lol:
I think I got all those.
AGH! two new posts!
I'm keeping my own list, which I'll send you when we get it working.
QuoteQuote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 10:47:13 PM
Thanks again, Jimi! I notice you measured R63 as 9.4k, but listed it as 82k in your final list (it's 12k in the schem). Which is it?
I think it's 12K.
Noted!
Kewl.
Quote from: R.G. on July 27, 2011, 11:00:54 PM
Quotec29 tantalum, orange, brown white
Schemo says 220pF. I didn't know they made tantalum that small. That doesn't mean they didn't. Maybe dip ceramic??
Again, a double orange band gives us 220pF, if the white is just a tolerance code.
Quote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 11:04:27 PM
The cap values look pretty good, with the following notes:
C12 is supposed to be .22uF, which would be RRYWR. I suspect there is a double band of red there that you read as one band, otherwise the multiplier's way too big.
Same for C17 & C20, which should be .33uF (OOYWR). That matches with your readings if the orange band is double-thick.
C26 & C30 are .15uF in the schem (BrGYWR). Either you mistook green for black or the caps in your unit are .1uF. If there is a discrepancy, I'm guessing it's not big enough to matter.
In short, these all appear to match the schem. Thanks for the hard work!
yah, keppy, i was wondering why the bands on some were wider than others!! :icon_redface:
your're right about c12, c17, c20...
c 26 and c 30 iare indeed brown, green yellow white red. sorry bro. these damn eyes have gone to poo since i gave up pot.
i am totally glad to be able to help tho...hopefully now we'll be able to figure out what's wrong...and i bet the issues you've been facing will all be alot easier to sort out bro.
rock on!! i am going to bed...nite, ya'll! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: R.G. on July 27, 2011, 11:00:54 PM
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 27, 2011, 10:42:15 PM
c1 ...
Looks consistent down to here:
Quotec29 tantalum, orange, brown white
Schemo says 220pF. I didn't know they made tantalum that small. That doesn't mean they didn't. Maybe dip ceramic??Quote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 10:47:13 PM
Thanks again, Jimi! I notice you measured R63 as 9.4k, but listed it as 82k in your final list (it's 12k in the schem). Which is it?
I think it's 12K.
the tantalum suffered the same prob as i had on others.. it's red red (super thick band i thought) brown white, not red brown white. it's definitely a tantalum, but a big one...the leads at the bottom are offset, kinda egg shaped with 1 leg going straight down from the bottom, and one kinda offset out the side of the bottom toward the center of the board, if that makes any sense at all.
i would call r63 12k, 10 k is probably close enough for rocknroll
Quote from: digi2t on July 27, 2011, 08:27:45 AM
:icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
I believe there is a typo on the schem. C3 is listed as .01uF, but my little fishy in the tank is wearing 1uF colors (non-polarized) :icon_surprised:. The capacitor colors are (tropical fish) Brown, Black, Orange, White, Red. My online calculator tells me 1uF/250V, and not .01uF as stated in the schem. Try that. :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
Wait a sec. The colors you listed are in fact .01uF. Check the chart I posted earlier.
Quote from: R.G. on July 27, 2011, 11:00:54 PM
R76 27K? 33K?......mine 27k [we'll go with 27k]
Jimi said this resistor is not original in his unit. I think I'll stick with the 33k I have in there already, unless you can give me a reason to swap.
yah, i was trying to nuke that hum problem. that resistor didn't seem to be critical, hell, a piece of wire would probably work. mine is actually going to ground on one end, seems to be the only way to keep c1 on the fall board from buzzing if ya touch the damn thing.
no, i still haven't gone thru the sucker to find the problem. ;)
it'll happen...eventually. ;)
That resistor is just a pulldown resistor for the Lo Z input, which you're probably not even using. A wire would just sent that input to ground, but I bet you could take the resistor out completely and the thing would still work.
Dino, I'm looking at C7 and thinking you made the same mistake I think you made on C3. Check it out and see if you agree or if I've just been up too long. :icon_eek: Also, I notice the discrepancy between schem values and the values you gave for C4/C5 is the same (100x) so if you could double-check those I'd appreciate it.
After sorting through all of these values, here are the changes I think I need to make from the original schem:
Fall Plate:
- R32=4.7k (awaiting verification)
- R36/R57=68k
- R38/R60=4.7k
Console:
- R3=1M (already done)
- R14=6.8k
- R15=10k
- C4/C5=470nF (probably)
I believe all other discrepancies have been explained away at this point. Let me know if you think I've missed anything!
[edited to include R32]
Dino, I checked out your links, and the calculator's jacked. :icon_evil: The other link actually uses a brown-black-orange code as an example and calls it .01uF, so I don't know what's up with the calculator. Please check C4/C5 for me, as the calculator might've misled you there, too. Also, it looks like R32 on the fall plate still needs verification, as noted earlier.
QuoteDino, could you verify R32 on the fall plate? Jimi's is different than the schematic, but that resistor connects to R33, the one that in his unit is paralleled with a 1M. Since you don't have the added 1M, I wonder whether yours will match the schem or not.
I confirm Jimi's finding on R32, another typo on the schem. It's 4.7K.
You're right about the calculator, it whack! C4, and C5 on the console are 0.0047uF. The color code gives 472. C3, and C7 are .01uF (code 103), and C13 is 0.22uF (code 224).
Don't worry, I ditched the calculator!! :icon_evil: Froggin' internet!! :icon_evil:
Sweet! So here's the revised list of changes:
Fall Plate:
- R32=4.7k
- R36/R57=68k
- R38/R60=4.7k
Console:
- R3=1M (already done)
- R14=6.8k
- R15=10k
I believe all other discrepancies have been explained away at this point. Let me know if you think I've missed anything!
Quote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 11:10:00 PM
I might have been unclear about this. The filters in my unit pass signal. They just don't filter, except for a small amount of treble filtering in parallel mode.
If they pass signal, it's worth measuring the DC conditions in the filters on all three units, and trying to get your clone to match the working units.
From simulation, the filtering happens only at a particular few points on the trimmers. I'll go see what the sim says for DC voltages when it filters.
Quote from: Keppy on July 28, 2011, 12:13:35 AM
That resistor is just a pulldown resistor for the Lo Z input, which you're probably not even using. A wire would just sent that input to ground, but I bet you could take the resistor out completely and the thing would still work.
Dino, I'm looking at C7 and thinking you made the same mistake I think you made on C3. Check it out and see if you agree or if I've just been up too long. :icon_eek: Also, I notice the discrepancy between schem values and the values you gave for C4/C5 is the same (100x) so if you could double-check those I'd appreciate it.
After sorting through all of these values, here are the changes I think I need to make from the original schem:
Fall Plate:
- R32=4.7k (awaiting verification)
- R36/R57=68k
- R38/R60=4.7k
Console:
- R3=1M (already done)
- R14=6.8k
- R15=10k
- C4/C5=470nF (probably)
I believe all other discrepancies have been explained away at this point. Let me know if you think I've missed anything!
[edited to include R32]
keppy, the values on the fall board have been verified bro. i not only double checked them, but metered them puppies, too. so i am triple sure they are right, other than the one resistor i had subbed. hope ya got some sleep and weren't up playing mad scientist all nite (like i would have been..)...
hopefully after making these changes it'll fire right up bro!!! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: R.G. on July 28, 2011, 09:50:20 AM
Quote from: Keppy on July 27, 2011, 11:10:00 PM
I might have been unclear about this. The filters in my unit pass signal. They just don't filter, except for a small amount of treble filtering in parallel mode.
If they pass signal, it's worth measuring the DC conditions in the filters on all three units, and trying to get your clone to match the working units.
From simulation, the filtering happens only at a particular few points on the trimmers. I'll go see what the sim says for DC voltages when it filters.
r.g., tell me what to do, i've gotta couple hours free...no idea what to check or where...but if ya tell me say "check at both sides of r56 to ground with a voltmeter" i can probably handle that without screwing it up too badly. ;)
Keppy,
Got the filter fired back on the simulator, put the circuit mods in. None of the changes made much of a difference either way so far, at least as regards getting a filter sound.
What *was* critical was the setting of R29. Unless this is just right, you get no filtering. So pick a filter, set up points 8 and 9 on the filter board to be about 2.5V, then tweak R29 til you get a filter sound. If that doesn't work, I can read values off the sim for DC voltages that should get you closer. I suspect that as critical as the setting is in simulation, that may be one of the biggest remaining issues.
I can come up with rationales for the other trimmers.
R31 sets the amount of DC on the rocker pedal so it moves Q5 on the console the right amount to make the control voltages for the two filters.
R41 and R62 have to do with either the sensitivity/idle frequency/balance of the two filters as respects the voltage made on R29. They are much less touchy than R29.
R55 and R77 are a balance between the two halves of the filter sides; don't know exactly what they do yet, but again, much less touchy.
R65 seems to be an output level control for the high formant filter. It won't keep it from filtering.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 28, 2011, 09:58:31 AM
r.g., tell me what to do, i've gotta couple hours free...no idea what to check or where...but if ya tell me say "check at both sides of r56 to ground with a voltmeter" i can probably handle that without screwing it up too badly. ;)
Actually, you've been immensely helpful in running stuff down. What would be very useful is to clip your voltmeter black lead to ground (wires 13 and 14 on the bottom board are handy), then measure the voltage with the red probe on
- all the transistor collector pins; collectors only should be enough. The schemo shows you where the collectors are.
- voltage on the wipers of the trimpots.
- voltages at wire/connections 8, 9, and any one of the places labeled with the funny greek letter in the circle on the schematic. The schemo also shows you where the pick off points for it are.
Given how critical that voltage is, I maybe should put in a test point on the PCB for setting it.
Simulator says the voltage for what I call "Lambda" ( I gotta look up what that symbol really is) has to be within the range of 1.75V to 2.3V to get filtering. Either side of that range seems to make the filter not filter.
One has to always be suspicious of simulators, but they form a useful guide to what happens. It's a good place to start.
Quote from: R.G. on July 28, 2011, 10:53:18 AM
Keppy,
Got the filter fired back on the simulator, put the circuit mods in. None of the changes made much of a difference either way so far, at least as regards getting a filter sound.
What *was* critical was the setting of R29. Unless this is just right, you get no filtering. So pick a filter, set up points 8 and 9 on the filter board to be about 2.5V, then tweak R29 til you get a filter sound. If that doesn't work, I can read values off the sim for DC voltages that should get you closer. I suspect that as critical as the setting is in simulation, that may be one of the biggest remaining issues.
r 29 will work over quite a range, rg, but some settings are unusable and just seem to cause oscillation.
Quote from: R.G. on July 28, 2011, 10:53:18 AM
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 28, 2011, 09:58:31 AM
r.g., tell me what to do, i've gotta couple hours free...no idea what to check or where...but if ya tell me say "check at both sides of r56 to ground with a voltmeter" i can probably handle that without screwing it up too badly. ;)
Actually, you've been immensely helpful in running stuff down. What would be very useful is to clip your voltmeter black lead to ground (wires 13 and 14 on the bottom board are handy), then measure the voltage with the red probe on
- all the transistor collector pins; collectors only should be enough. The schemo shows you where the collectors are.
- voltage on the wipers of the trimpots.
- voltages at wire/connections 8, 9, and any one of the places labeled with the funny greek letter in the circle on the schematic. The schemo also shows you where the pick off points for it are.
Given how critical that voltage is, I maybe should put in a test point on the PCB for setting it.
ok r.g. unfortunately, i'll be gone to appointments most of the afternoon, but will get on it as soon as i can this evening, see if we can narrow it down. on the other thread, i DID post the voltages on every single transistor...hang on, i may have them in my ludwig folder..sweet, i do...here ya go..
q1
e 0
b .63
c 2.99
q2
e 3.65
b 4.18
c 10.25
q3
e 0
b .60
c 7.69
q4
e 2.77
b 3.07
c 10.26
q5
e 3.31
b 2.63
c .20
q6
e 0
b .60
c .20
q7
e 3.57
b 4.23
c 8.77
q8
e 3.56
b 4.21
c 11.21
q9
e 19.77
b 19.12
c 11.21
q10
e 10.58
b 11.21
c 18.70
q11
e 19.35
b 18.70
c 15.80
q12
e 3.58
b 4.21
c 15.80
q13
e 3.58
b 4.22
c 14.88
q14
e 3.55
b 4.15
c 17.35
q15
e 3.55
b 4.21
c 11.40
q16
e 19.62
b 18.96
c 11.40
q17
e 10.77
b 11.41
c 18.88
q18
e 19.53
b 18.88
c 15.62
q19
e 3.59
b 4.21
c 15.62
q20
e 3.59
b 4.18
c 17.60
q21
e 3.31
b 3.83
c 10.26
sorry, those are only the voltages to ground on the fall board, i gotta defer to dino for the console board ones.
i will get the rest of the readings when i return early this evening.
we're getting closer...can feel it! :icon_mrgreen:
also...resistance readings from the fall board, posted in the other thread...trying to keep everything in one folder here...
all readings from the BACK (non thumbwheel) side of the pot, 3, 2 (wiper), 1, left to right
r31 (25k)
3-2 = 4.7k
2-1 = no reading
r77 = 30k
3-2 = 13.8k
2-1 = 19.9k
r41 = 500r
3-2 = 420r
2-1 = no reading
r62 = 500r
3-2 = 175.9r
2-1 = no reading
r55 = 50k
3-2 = 15.9k
2-1 = 32.6k
r29 = 150r
3-2 = 106r
2-1 = no reading
r65 = 25k
set to 24.3k
treadle pot = 5k
toe down
3-2 = 4.1k
2-1 = 4.3k
heel down
3-2 = 4.5
2-1 = no reading
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 28, 2011, 11:55:23 AM
ok r.g. unfortunately, i'll be gone to appointments most of the afternoon, but will get on it as soon as i can this evening, see if we can narrow it down. on the other thread, i DID post the voltages on every single transistor...hang on, i may have them in my ludwig folder..sweet, i do...here ya go..
Hey! So you did. That's what I needed. More sim work. Go do the appointments. I have plenty to work on.
i have a 2 hour window before my next appointment, so i'll get the voltage readings at all the fall board test points now...more shortly, stay tuned!!
here's the voltage readings on the points labeled 1-23 on the fallboard layout...where all the wires connect.
connection point voltages, fall board layout
all effects etc on, dc scale 200v
1 0v
2 0
3 0
4 modulating, 16.8 - 17.1
5 35.5
6 .5
7 .1
8 modulating, 3.6 - 4.4
9 modulating, 5.6 - 6.2
10 0
11 modulating, 5.9 - 6.8
12 modulating, 5.9 - 6.8
13 0
14 0
15 4.6
16 .1
17 0
18 0
19 2.3
20 modulating, 3.7 - 5.2
21 modulating, 7.4 - 7.8
22 0
23 0
Huh. I already had a 4.7k for R32. I guess 2 wrongs CAN make a right. :D Anyway...
THE FORMANTS ARE WORKING!!! :icon_twisted:
Those other 6 transistor substitutions did the trick! Still no animation, though.
The unit now has a much different sound than it did. Before, it just sounded treble boosted when it was on with no fuzz or formants. Now it sounds heavily filtered, kind of a wah-left-in-place effect. The volume seems to have dropped as well, compared to before. Would that be because I replaced the 47k base-collector resistor on the terminal strip with 68k, or something else?
time to play with the trimmers now bro. one at a time. do you have the exp pedal hooked up? animation at this point is secondary. the treadle will control the formants...all animation is really is like an lfo or something that sweeps the formants. if it works with the pedal like a wah, you're almost there. trimmer r31 will let you fine tune the pedal...you're not gonna get the formants working right without it i'm afraid, as so much is dependant on the treadle...that's what literally sets the RANGE of the formant filters. the animation is secondary, and won't work in my experience here until you get that one dialed in. you'll suddenly most likely find a sweet spot where it comes to life, and begins self oscillating. when you get there (and it can and will happen at a couple spots along that trimmer's range, including making the pedal work backwards...ie: bass toe down rather than treble) back off just slightly. then hit trimmer r29. that will also help you dial in the treadle.
make sure that r 65 is (as it looks on the schematic) all the way counterclockwise, then back off just a little tiny tiny bit.
r41 and r62 will control the ratio between fuzz and formant. put 'em about half way up.
r77 if i recall when mine broke is the intensity for the fuzz repeat...when the formants weren't working, anyways. ;)
the fact that ya have the %^&*ed wah sound and a volume drop are GOOD signs...that means the formant filters are working, if they weren't, you'd just have a loud, trebly fuzz at this point. try the exp pedal...if it goes thru a couple vowel sounds, you know you got it and it's just something with the lfo or whatever that is used to sweep the formants. even when the animation is working, the RANGE of the formants is determined by the treadle. ya gotta have that part hooked up,, or it just won't do it's thing, keppy.
damn, dude, i am so psyched for ya!!! it's just around the corner, i can smell it, and it smells GOOOOOOD~! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
Congratulations! You're on the edge.
Jimi's right - play with the trimmers gently. R29 can take it all the way out of filtering to not filtering, all by itself.
When you get both filters to a usable point, let's get the rocker circuit working so you sweep both filters with the rocker. The LFO in the animation is being obstinate.
yah, the formants will only work with the treadle...seriously. hook that puppy up, and i bet suddenly everything will start to work.
in some positions of the treadle, you won't even HEAR the animation.
ya gotta hook that thing up, keppy!!
Again, I was unclear:
THE FORMANTS ALL SWEEP ALONG WITH THE ROCKER PEDAL!!!
That's what I meant in the first place. The entire effect works now, except for the animation. The wah-in-place sound is with the formant sweeps OFF.
Quote from: Keppy on July 28, 2011, 05:44:37 PM
Those other 6 transistor substitutions did the trick! Still no animation, though.
Did you mean resistor subs? Or did you have to change transistors?
QuoteThe unit now has a much different sound than it did. Before, it just sounded treble boosted when it was on with no fuzz or formants. Now it sounds heavily filtered, kind of a wah-left-in-place effect. The volume seems to have dropped as well, compared to before. Would that be because I replaced the 47k base-collector resistor on the terminal strip with 68k, or something else?
The 47K to 68K change would not drop the volume a lot, if any. Actually, it should theoretically increase it. That's not the issue.
I think it may be the effect of filtering. With bandpass filters like these, the more heavily resonant they are, the more they select out only specific parts of the signal, and so most of the original signal is lost.
Quote from: Keppy on July 28, 2011, 07:35:16 PM
Again, I was unclear:
THE FORMANTS ALL SWEEP ALONG WITH THE ROCKER PEDAL!!!
That's what I meant in the first place. The entire effect works now, except for the animation. The wah-in-place sound is with the formant sweeps OFF.
Hot stuff! OK, now we go get the animation to work.
Quote from: Keppy on July 28, 2011, 05:44:37 PM
Those other 6 transistor substitutions did the trick! Still no animation, though.
I meant RESISTOR substitutions. :icon_redface: Sorry, I was excited.
Quote from: R.G. on July 28, 2011, 07:36:42 PM
QuoteThe unit now has a much different sound than it did. Before, it just sounded treble boosted when it was on with no fuzz or formants. Now it sounds heavily filtered, kind of a wah-left-in-place effect. The volume seems to have dropped as well, compared to before. Would that be because I replaced the 47k base-collector resistor on the terminal strip with 68k, or something else?
I think it may be the effect of filtering. With bandpass filters like these, the more heavily resonant they are, the more they select out only specific parts of the signal, and so most of the original signal is lost.
Should those filters be effecting the signal when the formant switches are off? The overall, basic volume of the effect is what dropped, as well as going through a tonal change (wah-in-place filter sound). The fuzz seems like it's more gated now, too (maybe). It's like the signal's being attenuated/filtered early in the chain even with the filters off. I can deal with that, but I'm curious as to the cause, as well as whether that's normal performance.
as rg says, YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-HAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FREEKIN' SWEET!!!!!!!!!!! COOL!!
now we just gotta get the formants sweeping...anything i can do to help? let me know!! i'll be watching!!!
i am so psyched for you...it's alive, It's Alive, IT'S ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!
Quote from: Keppy on July 28, 2011, 07:44:38 PM
Quote from: R.G. on July 28, 2011, 07:36:42 PM
QuoteThe unit now has a much different sound than it did. Before, it just sounded treble boosted when it was on with no fuzz or formants. Now it sounds heavily filtered, kind of a wah-left-in-place effect. The volume seems to have dropped as well, compared to before. Would that be because I replaced the 47k base-collector resistor on the terminal strip with 68k, or something else?
I think it may be the effect of filtering. With bandpass filters like these, the more heavily resonant they are, the more they select out only specific parts of the signal, and so most of the original signal is lost.
Should those filters be effecting the signal when the formant switches are off? The overall, basic volume of the effect is what dropped, as well as going through a tonal change (wah-in-place filter sound). The fuzz seems like it's more gated now, too (maybe). It's like the signal's being attenuated/filtered early in the chain even with the filters off. I can deal with that, but I'm curious as to the cause, as well as whether that's normal performance.
yah, that seems normal. i think that's why they added on that little piece with the transistor on the strip board. with the fuzz on, it should be about unity..the bypass volume on the side of the fall board is to equalize the output of the effect to the bypass, which doesn't really work. it should get a slight volume drop with the fuzz, then get louder with the formant switches on. with them off, it sounds pretty gnarly...trebly, thin, and kinda compressed...in a bad way.
I checked out the youtube vids you guys posted. With the fuzz & formants off, Dino's sounds like mine used to, but Jimi's sounds kinda like mine does now. Probably ok then. Do any of those trimmers affect the basic sound, fuzz & formants off?
yah, but not much, really. it seems to steal ALOT of the fuzz gain in the formant circuit...when mine broke, the two trimmers r 41 and r62 controlled the overall volume AND the fuzz intensity...but once i fixed r29, it didn't really matter. me and dino are on the horn right no....congrats!!1!
Oh man, I got home tonight, checked in here, and just about pee'd myself. I called up Jimi, got a cold one out of the fridge, and had a swig for everybody involved. I know it might be a bit premature, seeing how the modulation isn't up yet, but that's a formality at this point.
QuoteI checked out the youtube vids you guys posted. With the fuzz & formants off, Dino's sounds like mine used to, but Jimi's sounds kinda like mine does now. Probably ok then. Do any of those trimmers affect the basic sound, fuzz & formants off?
Not to my knowledge to date. The fuzz is straight out of the box, with the Fuzz/Fuzz Voice slider for intensity adjustment. The difference between units that you noticed is probably due to pure crap recording quality. I did however play with the treadle pot gear position on mine, and it provides some flexibility in the "vocal" sweep of the unit. They have some play at either end of the pot travel, but too much is useless, there is not much difference past certain points either way.
Kep, do you still need the collector voltage from the console trannies? If so, I'll do them tonight because we're leaving for a baseball tourney all weekend. I'll tell you what, I'll measure them anyway, and post later tonight. I'll get the voltages off the UJT as well.
Personally, I haven't really detected any trimmer that affects the fuzz alone. Straight fuzz out of this unit is just plain nasty (and weak), like a wah left toe down. It gets boosted when you click on a formant, any formant. I wish I knew enough about this to be able to say, "Screw it, let's stick a Tonebender fuzz circuit in here instead!". It seems like these babies we're just not meant to be straight fuzz boxes. I should be getting the other unit next week as well. I'm looking forward to loking inside to see if there are any surprises in that one. Forget the box of chcolates.... Life is like a Ludwig!!
As I told Jimi on the phone, what Kep's got now, is a recreation of a 70's effect. Once everything is operational, as per the original, it would be cool to maybe refine it somewhat. Keep the mojo, but make it a bit more practical. Boost the fuzz, a comprehensive volume control, stuff that would render it a bit more practical in todays terms. I'm sure ideas will be plentiful.
WOW, I still can't believe it. I'm just sooo proud that I could contribute to this adventure. :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
right on, dino..
keppy, dumb question, and just a shot in the dark, but make sure that you have the animation rate turned all the way down....it also affects the speed of the fuzz repeat, and if ya got them pegged, and the console board trimmer that controls the speed set too fast, your animation may be modulating so darn fast, it may SEEM like it's doing nothing...
and following the murphy's law rule of potentiometers, 50% of the time a pot can get wired backwards.
not saying ya made a mistake brother, just thinking maybe you're not getting the expected animation cuz the rate is too great to hear. i mean, when it's pegged, at certain spots, it may do what you describe.
like i said, just a shot in the dark...
i can not wait to build one of these things...and, hopefully, down the road, take this volkswagen and turn it into a modern mazerati!!!!
can't wait to hear more good news...
champagnah is in oerder... lol
OK, tranny readings from the console. I did the best to read them with the DMM, but with the animation on, some readings are impossible to get.
Q1
E - 31.57V
C - 33.38V
B - 29.17V RATE SWITCH ON FAST, 15mV RATE SWITCH ON SLOW
Q2
E - JUMPS BETWEEN 5V AND 7V WITH ANIMATION ON, 11.2mV WITH ANIMATION OFF
B1 - JUMPS BETWEEN 13.99V AND 14.50V WITH ANIMATION ON, 14.52V WITH ANIMATION OFF.
B2 - JUMPS BETWEEN 0.508V AND 0.548V WITH ANIMATION ON, 0.5V WITH ANIMATION OFF.
Q3
E - 0V
C - 70mV WITH ANIMATION OFF, JUMPS TOO MUCH TO READ WITH ANIMATION ON
B - 58.5mV WITH ANIMATION OFF, JUMPS TOO MUCH TO READ WITH ANIMATION ON
Q4
E - 0V
C - 58.5mV WITH ANIMATION OFF, JUMPS TOO MUCH TO READ WITH ANIMATION ON
B - 0.693V WITH ANIMATION OFF, JUMPS TOO MUCH TO READ WITH ANIMATION ON
Q5
E - 0V
C - 8.05V WITH ANIMATION OFF, JUMPS BETWEEN 6V AND 10V WITH ANIMATION ON
B - 0.611V WITH ANIMATION ON
Q6
E - 33.75V
B - 34.28V
C - 46.5V
Hope this helps.
For digging into the animation, we need to figure out whether the UJT is doing anything at all or not.
I think we may be able to do this with an audio probe. The signals at B2 and B1 will make *big* clicks to an audio probe if they're there. So big that we probably need a divider to protect the amp.
Kep, you may want to use an audio probe, but with a capacitor feeding a 100K resistor to the signal line to the amp, and a 1K from signal line to ground. This 100:1 divider will keep the spike levels down, and should be safe for the amp. If you hear nothing, you can go to a 100K/10K divider or even a 100K/100K divider. If it's working, I'd expect to hear ticks which repeat at a speed controlled by the animation rate.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 28, 2011, 10:11:01 PM
keppy, dumb question, and just a shot in the dark, but make sure that you have the animation rate turned all the way down....it also affects the speed of the fuzz repeat, and if ya got them pegged, and the console board trimmer that controls the speed set too fast, your animation may be modulating so darn fast, it may SEEM like it's doing nothing...
and following the murphy's law rule of potentiometers, 50% of the time a pot can get wired backwards.
I wired the pot for minimum resistance when turned up and verified the wiring. Of course, I've verified other things and STILL gotten them wrong... Like how the fuzz repeat knob on mine is forever labeled Intens. Fuzz FFM. :icon_redface:
I've kept the knob all the way up for the most part based on R.G.'s advice, but every time I change something I cycle it down & up just to check.
Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming! I'm not offended by you thinking of mistakes I might have made when my effect doesn't work right! ;)
heck, rg, couldn't kep just use the fuzz repeat to test with? i mean, that thing should be clicking...or "ticking" loud i'd imagine.
keppy, does the fuzz repeat tick? if it does, does the speed of the ticking vary with the animation rate?
as for an audio probe, REAL dumb question, but what about the jack darr method of just using a finger (with the other hand in your pocket) to see if a buzz happens?
sorry for the dumb questions, but again, i am but an egg here...
rg, can you figure out enough to tell me WHAT stuff would be involved to figure out voltage readings etc that may help?
i'm willing to read every connection on the board if that's what it takes. ;)
Quote from: Keppy on July 28, 2011, 11:52:47 PM
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 28, 2011, 10:11:01 PM
keppy, dumb question, and just a shot in the dark, but make sure that you have the animation rate turned all the way down....it also affects the speed of the fuzz repeat, and if ya got them pegged, and the console board trimmer that controls the speed set too fast, your animation may be modulating so darn fast, it may SEEM like it's doing nothing...
and following the murphy's law rule of potentiometers, 50% of the time a pot can get wired backwards.
I wired the pot for minimum resistance when turned up and verified the wiring. Of course, I've verified other things and STILL gotten them wrong... Like how the fuzz repeat knob on mine is forever labeled Intens. Fuzz FFM. :icon_redface:
I've kept the knob all the way up for the most part based on R.G.'s advice, but every time I change something I cycle it down & up just to check.
Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming! I'm not offended by you thinking of mistakes I might have made when my effect doesn't work right! ;)
dude, the fuzz repeat is probably the least useable part of the whole feckin' piece!! lol..
seriously, i would start with it down, not up. that may be part of the equation as to what's messing you up. right now, first things first, we need to get the modulation part figured out. tho the animation includes the fuzz repeat, the first two controls are the most important imho. you're gonna most likely want the intensity full tilt, and the rate as low as possible so you can hear the diff...at the highest rate, it's gonna make a really fast tremolo-y babbling sound if it's working. a slower sweep will be a lot easier to hear.
i bet it's gonna be something we just ain't seeing that's gonna be really freekin' obvious.
but it doesn't matter...the fact of the matter is it's alive...
and it can be elusive, and it can run, but it'll die tired, and be frankenstein'd back to life. ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 28, 2011, 11:55:43 PM
heck, rg, couldn't kep just use the fuzz repeat to test with? i mean, that thing should be clicking...or "ticking" loud i'd imagine.
keppy, does the fuzz repeat tick? if it does, does the speed of the ticking vary with the animation rate?
If it were ticking, sure, that would do it. My first suspicion on the LFO was that it was latching on and never unlatching, so there would be no ticking. We haven't yet seen anything to prove or disprove that.
Quoteas for an audio probe, REAL dumb question, but what about the jack darr method of just using a finger (with the other hand in your pocket) to see if a buzz happens?
sorry for the dumb questions, but again, i am but an egg here...
No, it's not a dumb question. I'm suggesting that he deliberately misuse the audio probe technique to listen to the LFO. Normally that wouldn't make any sense, but this LFO does periodic ticks that would come across on an audio probe. A finger on the signal lines would make the output of the pedal buzz, but wouldn't do anything to the LFO. I'm really trying to figure a way to do what I'd normally do with an oscilloscope; maybe we can listen to the LFO and hear bits of it operating or not. It will at least tell us something about whether there is anything there or not. Your thinking is not off at all - just that I'm trying to do something that's way nonstandard.
Quoterg, can you figure out enough to tell me WHAT stuff would be involved to figure out voltage readings etc that may help?
i'm willing to read every connection on the board if that's what it takes. ;)
Actually, this maybe ought to be called the Pink Jimi clone. :icon_biggrin: Without your pushing, to get it started, I'm suspecting it wouldn't be here. You've been very willing. Right now, I think the issue is how to get a quirky, unusual part to function by internet debug.
I may have to order myself a 2N2646 to tinker with to provide sane advice to Keppy. Alternatively, I have breadboarded and got running two different substitutes for the UJT, one a 2N6027 PUT and the other a connection of a PNP and NPN transistor that acts very much the same. I'm holding off on that till we can focus on the UJT in Keppy's board for a while. That's the short term goal.
On the other hand, we now know that the PCB layout produces working formant action, subject to some tinkering and maybe more work on the UJT thing. We're nearing the point where we'll have to figure out when it's good enough to go print a few. I know a place that owes me some PCB favors, and based on the area of the PCB, I can get 15 sets of the PCBs (fall and console bds) for about $250 plus shipping, etc. Call it under $20 a set. If you want, one of you can set up a group buy and we'll get them. I'll sift in any changes needed first. Keppy has been very good at making suggestions back into the PCB and BOM. Huge help. I think the last changes I did were to put in several options for different sized trimmers. We may want to put in the 2N6027 PUT based on what we find from the LFO stuff.
That's the longer term goal, I think.
Quote from: Keppy on July 29, 2011, 01:22:39 AM
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 28, 2011, 11:55:43 PM
keppy, does the fuzz repeat tick?
Nope.
I think the next thing to do is to run the repeat trimmer R4 on the console board *up* to maximum resistance. I think I told you to run it down to minimum before. That was probably not a good idea. Or just set it dead middle. Then mess with the animation rate pot while audio probing for ticks on B2. If nothing happens at any setting of the rate pot, then it's likely a bad component, solder joint, or UJT.
JImi, Digi2t, what are the fastest and slowest rates on the animation speed? 1/second? 10/second?
I tried the audio probe and got no ticking. I took some resistance measurements of the UJT in the circuit, power off, unit grounded through the amp. Weird things happening here. Interbase resistance is about 4.5k. Resistance from emitter to either base is about 13k, but it takes awhile to settle there. I saw the meter start at 1M+ and travel all the way to 13M. I also saw the meter start high and drop to 13M. Again, this is without power to the circuit.
Quote from: R.G. on July 27, 2011, 12:52:16 PM
If the flipflop is working, there will always be 15-16V between the two collectors, because one will be at 15-16V, and the other will be at nearly ground; they just change positions too fast to see with a meter. Both positions produce the same voltage, but alternating polarities. Here's a thought - measure the difference between the two collectors on an AC scale. This puts a capacitor in series inside the meter to keep the DC out. If you get a significant reading, then they're flopping but too fast to read on DC. Works sometimes.
I finally got around to doing this. There's no significant AC between points 25 & 26. However, measuring DC, pin 26 now reads the supply voltage, while pin 25 reads ground. This is a change. Before, I read 15v between the two, but both read .06v to ground. Not sure why that changed.
hi guys...gonna be out for a little bit, so will look at voltages or what ever when i get home.
diggit....
trimmer r77 controls the fuzz repeat intensity, looking from the back, (as on the layout) it should be somewhere between 1/3rd and 3/4 way up...try turning up the fuzz repeat control full, the animation rate about 1/2, the animation intensity full. then f around with that trimmer.
trimmers r 41 and r 62 also seem to have something to do with the ffm....mark where it's working now, and try cranking r62 full and r41 almost off. as i recall there's a sweet spot in there where everything comes together, the phase II is a real juggle of a balancing act.
worst case scenario, i will go beg my old oscilloscope off my old guitarist that i gave it to, and ship the sob to ya keppy!!! ;)
when i stopped building tube amps when my wife got sick i gave all that stuff away, if he still has it (and he's a packrat, so he should) i will try and get it out of him.
i gotta jet for now...great work, all around, thanks guys for believing in this thing...it's like real-life jurassic park, that don't eat people...or suck, for that matter!!
again, i apologize for not reading all the damn voltages and stuff in the first place, i'm realizing now my laziness cost alot of time that could have been saved..
talk soon brothers...peace and blessings to ye..
Quote from: Keppy on July 29, 2011, 02:36:18 AM
I tried the audio probe and got no ticking. I took some resistance measurements of the UJT in the circuit, power off, unit grounded through the amp. Weird things happening here. Interbase resistance is about 4.5k. Resistance from emitter to either base is about 13k, but it takes awhile to settle there. I saw the meter start at 1M+ and travel all the way to 13M. I also saw the meter start high and drop to 13M. Again, this is without power to the circuit.
It's hard to tell, but that *might* be because the UJT is starting in the off condition; the meter resistor measuring circuit puts a current out, then measures the voltage it causes. On capacitors, this charges up the cap. It might be that the meter was charging up the timing cap and then the emitter turning on. Maybe.
Do you have a breadboard? I'm thinking that we may be able to test the UJT in a breadboard circuit.
All the descriptions so far are consistent with the UJT tripping on once, then never un-locking.
Yeah, I have a breadboard. That's how I do my audio probing, actually. I never bothered with altering a cable; I just run a wire to a cap on the breadboard.
Let me know what kind of test circuit you're thinking. In the meantime, I might order another 2646 just in case it DOES turn out to be bad. I didn't want to do that earlier because I'm moving next week, but I should be able to get it shipped to the new place now.
Quote from: Keppy on July 29, 2011, 12:35:26 PM
Yeah, I have a breadboard. That's how I do my audio probing, actually. I never bothered with altering a cable; I just run a wire to a cap on the breadboard.
Let me know what kind of test circuit you're thinking. In the meantime, I might order another 2646 just in case it DOES turn out to be bad. I didn't want to do that earlier because I'm moving next week, but I should be able to get it shipped to the new place now.
Ordering a new one isn't all that bad an idea. When you do, get a 2N6027 too. The 6027 is only about $0.35, and I'm **sure** I can make that work in this thing. I almost just ditched the 2646 at first.
For a test circuit, I'd try the first schemo here: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/8.html (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/8.html), the one without the transformer. I think it'll work at 9V.
In my (long ago!) experience with UJTs, I learned that they're quirky to get working reliably. Any of the resistors involved can make them not work, and there are both upper and lower limits on the timing resistor for the timing capacitor. If one or more of the resistances wasn't right, it would latch up and not oscillate or never trip and discharge the timing cap.
While you're at it (in your copious spare time, getting ready to move :icon_biggrin: ) think about what other changes to the PCB might be useful. Right now, you have more experience on that layout than any other living person. :icon_lol:
sorry guys, i'm out of town right now. i'm texting from my buddys phone. i'll be back sunday night. my bet is on the ujt, can't be that messed up. my fingers are crossed for you guys!
cheers,
dino
k guys, i'm here and will check in periodically if anyone needs any info or anything. just say the word, i should be home all day now.
i did talk to mike, so will have my old oscilloscope back soon. don't know what the heck to DO with it, but... :icon_mrgreen:
Got hacked off at UJTs, PUTs and all of their ilk.
The CMOS 555 does the job nicely. Can be dropped into the design easily, leaves the flipflop unchanged, and replaces Q1, Q2, and the junk around them. Works with a single 1M timing pot, and has an inhibit pin to serve the function that Q1 did.
Of course, now I want to replace that 'flop with gates, too. :icon_eek:
Honestly, the layout's pretty good as is for the components that are involved. Everything has worked wonderfully once the components were the right values. I didn't even have to tweak the trimpots to get it to work, although there's a lot of dialing to taste that I haven't gotten around to yet. :) What I mean by that is I don't know that there's any need to specifically make room for test points, unless we find out what the original ones were for. The components fit just fine.
In fact, I think the only real suggestion I have to the layout is removing all the redundant grounding points, since they're joined on the two boards anyway. I jumpered the console ground to the fall plate ground so I could connect it to the chassis with one wire. Even then, having all those ground points let me choose the most convenient connection, so maybe they stay but with a note that it's not necessary to wire them all up (which anyone building something this complicated should already know!).
Actually, now that I think about it, the socket for the UJT is bumped up against some nearby components. Given my issues, it might be a good idea to make some extra room around that so future builders can socket that particular part.
Anyway that's it for layout suggestions. I have a list of documentation issues that I'll be sending you once we have it all sorted out, R.G. Mostly a list of errors/misreads we found plus some suggestions for the wiring diagram.
Back to work wrapping up bookkeeping for the business I just sold so we could move... :P
so....did ya get it working, kep? :icon_biggrin:
UJTs are easy...PAIA used them in their early vco and (i think) sequencer.
But, I would 1000% agree with R.G. that 555's are the coolest bad. :icon_cool:
So, Keepy, did U build some clone pcbs?? Or, are U working on your original unit??
:icon_cool:
Jimi & Dino (digi2t) have originals. I'm building a clone with a layout of R.G.'s. If I get a working unit I believe he intends to post the documents.
Quote from: R.G. on July 29, 2011, 12:48:29 PM
Ordering a new one isn't all that bad an idea. When you do, get a 2N6027 too. The 6027 is only about $0.35, and I'm **sure** I can make that work in this thing. I almost just ditched the 2646 at first.
The 2646 is available at Small Bear. The 6027 is available at Mouser. Anyone know a place that has both?
Quote
For a test circuit, I'd try the first schemo here: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/8.html (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/8.html), the one without the transformer. I think it'll work at 9V.
What will that circuit tell me? There's no timing cap, so it doesn't appear to be an oscillator. Also, there are no values on that schem, so I don't know how to set it up for 9v. I'll definitely need more info to use that as any kind of diagnostic, because I don't know what I'd be looking for.
dino, I think he means this schemo; http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/8.html#03506.png (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/8.html#03506.png)
And Newark.com seems to have both the 2646 and 6027!
Quote from: Keppy on July 29, 2011, 11:07:47 PM
What will that circuit tell me? There's no timing cap, so it doesn't appear to be an oscillator. Also, there are no values on that schem, so I don't know how to set it up for 9v. I'll definitely need more info to use that as any kind of diagnostic, because I don't know what I'd be looking for.
Sorry. I wasn't clear. Scroll further down, below the first graph of peak point/valley point, to the two circuits with waveforms between them.
The left hand circuit has a 100K and 10nF timing circuit, RB2 is 470 ohms and Rb1 is 47 ohms. The circuit on the right has a transformer in it.The left circuit is what you want.
You'd be putting the signal into an amp and listening for a (very loud) oscillation.
Gotcha. First, though, can you tell me if I'm missing something in the wiring diagram? the way I read it, the animation footswitch, when off, grounds the animation speed switch. When on, it lifts the ground. How can the animation speed switch function if it is just switching a wire with no connection between two points? What am I missing? Do I have the right version of the wiring diagram? Here's the one I have:
(sorry about the size)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/LudwigPhaseIIwiring.jpg)
Test complete. Result: Loud tone ~700Hz. It would appear the UJT works.
I was poking around the console board earlier. It turns out that just poking the meters with the collector sometimes triggers the flip-flop, which is why they both appeared to read .06v earlier, but with a 15v difference between them. Each time I touched one, it flopped low. So, the flip-flop appears to work fine, flipping between .06v and about 15.5v when triggered. It's just that oscillator...
Careful comparison of the Ludwig to the test circuit R.G. posted revealed an error. The Ludwig schem has the UJT's bases reversed. I pulled it out and reversed them and, well...
We did it. ;D
Congratulations! :icon_biggrin:
BTW this thread is more addictive than a soap opera :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Keppy on July 30, 2011, 02:20:59 AM
Careful comparison of the Ludwig to the test circuit R.G. posted revealed an error. The Ludwig schem has the UJT's bases reversed. I pulled it out and reversed them and, well...
We did it. ;D
Good work! I missed that completely, even grinding ever-finer on the UJT circuit.
Consider yourself toasted!
WOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i just tried to txt dino and failed.
i AM rolling up a phat one in your honor tho, since i don't drink. ;)
once things settle down a bit, any way we can get a complete layout and BOM etc so we can ask aaron to host it all here?
keppy, i'm still down for a couple circuit boards when the time comes.
i can't believe this journey we've taken together. it's taken decades, but the 4 of us finally did it, we cracked the nut, planted the seed and grew us one of the coolest things that ever got stomped on.
i am speechless.
;)
keppy, go play with it for a week, and tell us when ya get back what ya think. we need pics!! video!! audio!! ;)
well done mates...well done!! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
;D Sweeeeet!
LOL!!!
Quote(sorry about the size)
Never appologize if it's "too big" :icon_biggrin:
Especially if it's a wiring diagram.... :icon_mrgreen:
Go Keppy Go.....
see, I said UJT's were easy....just use them "right side up" :icon_lol:
back to working on cars, not stompboxes .. . :-(
:icon_cool:
so...keppy? you alive in there, bud? :icon_mrgreen:
Yup, still alive. I've been at a battle of the bands all day, watching my students perform :)
Everything's working, though! I just have to dial the trimmers to taste. Then, load up everything I own and drive 700 miles. :icon_eek:
owwwwwwwwwie!!
dude,, you gotta PLAY WITH IT! ;)
best of luck with the move brother. ya done good! ;)
Nice work guys !!!
Good luck with the move,it always rain when I move,even here in the desert and thats unusual.
Watched your vid Jimi,
Your dog seems to like the camera ;D
But really,IMO alot of the sounds didnt seem that useful,while others were really incredible.
I KNEW IT HAD TO BE SOMETHING STUPID WITH THE UJT!!! YEAH BABY!!!
Congrats Kep, fantastic finish :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
I writing from the hotel computer right now, I just wanted to check in, and see whazzup. I`m in Quebec City right now, my son`s team has a tourney all weekend. So far, they`re unbeaten, and my son pitched 6 innings of hitless ball, in a 3 nothing shutout. Player of the game honors. That and the Ludwig news... weekend in paradise! Thanks guys!
I`ll be in for 2 boards as well. Gonna have another brewsky in all your`s honors at tonight`s game. Jimi, since I don`t smoke, have an extra long haul fo me man.
Bravo zulu brothers!!
Dino
WHOO HOO~~~ STILL CELEBRATING HERE!! ;)
I'll have some time when I get home to update/correct the PCB. It's getting:
- another resistor for the amplifier circuit
- footprints that accept three different kinds of trimmer pots
- more space around the UJT on the console board for socketing
- an added resistor on t he console board that lets a 2N6027 go in there
- corrected pinout on the UJT
- part value updates (really a BOM issue)
- some more graphics work to show the final part positions
Awesome! I think the only other thing it needs is some notes on how to set the trimmers. Jimi & Dino, do you think a step-by-step procedure is in order, or is it enough just to know what each one does? Given the oscillations this thing can produce if set incorrectly, it seems like there should at least be cautions about how to set them before tweaking, i.e. keeping R65 all the way counter-clockwise to start with. Oh, and which one to turn to begin hearing the formants at all.
Yeah, I think step-by-step instructions would be best. You guys have already made a few lists of what each trimmer does. Can you edit and repost those to indicate what order they should be adjusted in, and where each one should be set before plugging the effect in the first time?
QuoteYeah, I think step-by-step instructions would be best. You guys have already made a few lists of what each trimmer does. Can you edit and repost those to indicate what order they should be adjusted in, and where each one should be set before plugging the effect in the first time?
No problem. I`ll put that together this week. I believe that between Jimi and myself, we should have enough readings to be able to give a certain range for resistance, or voltage on the test points, for initial setup. I think the other unit will be in this week as well, so if I`m able to get it fully operational quickly, I`ll be able to factor in the readings from 3 units total. I think that should be more than plenty to set up a unit, and then some additional pointers from our experience so a person can just tweak it to taste.
Still celebrating here as well. It`s 1 a.m., and the game just finished. Total trainwreak, we won 20 to 4, off to the semis tomorrow morning.... today I mean :icon_redface:
Good night y`all!!
Am I right that the fuzz is created at Q5, Q6 & Q21 on the fall plate board? If so, should I expect to see any difference in sound substituting transistors there? I can't quite wrap my head around that part of the circuit.
lol...i just got home from a gig and had to check in. this is the coolest thing ever, i think...hats off to you gents, we made it happen...now we perfect it a little.
;)
g'nite!
Quote from: Keppy on July 31, 2011, 01:46:08 AM
Am I right that the fuzz is created at Q5, Q6 & Q21 on the fall plate board? If so, should I expect to see any difference in sound substituting transistors there? I can't quite wrap my head around that part of the circuit.
Yes. Fuzz is at Q5, 6, 21.
Q5 and 6 are a high gain complementary amplifier, set up to bang against whatever power supply voltage they get. One of those is ground, and the other is the emitter of Q21. Q21 gets a base voltage from the fuzz repeats/fuzz mix section. It acts like an emitter follower, and the voltage Q5 and 6 have to work with follow the Q21 base voltage. Changing the Q21 base voltage runs the size of the output at collectors of Q5/6 from nearly zero up to about 6V peak. The fuzz repeats signal feeds Q21 base with an envelope, and the output then follows it in size. The fuzz mix control feeds Q21 base with fixed voltage determined by the pot setting, and hence a fixed-size output.
I would expect no change in sound subbing transistors there, given only that the gains are high enough. Once you get to very low gains, there will be some change, so you can tinker. Most devices with a gain over about 50-100 will sound much the same, I think.
Cool. I won't bother then. I don't have anything that low-gain.
I did think of another note for the build. I used a 48v DC .42A switching power supply from Mouser. I wired the power jack to one of the AC ins (pin 2 or 3, I forget which). No mods, just straight into one of the rectifier diodes. The regulator scheme on the board did fine with it, no whine from the power supply.
Is there anyway to sub a resistor (a la fuzz face) to get some additional volume out of the fuzz circuit? Then maybe we can trim/balance the output volume between fuzz only and fuzz/formant combo to achieve unity between the two? Compared to my other fuzz pedals, the output is just plain weak.
The fuzz circuit shows a relatively huge output in simulation - as in several volts of signal. I suspect the real problem is the amount of signal making it through the filters.
The output of the fuzz circuit is determined by the voltage on the base of Q21, which is modulated by the fuzz mix and modulation controls. Below about 1.8-1.9V it cuts off entirely. It may be that you have a bad part that is keeping it too low.
i'm tellin you guys, most of that gain is being swallowed up by the filters. when the ffm broke on mine, i had TONS of fuzz, and tons of volume. as soon as i fixed it, the fuzz got weak again.
@Keppy:
When you get the chance - like after the dust settles from moving (*hate moving, hate moving*) - it would be useful to know the current drain on the clone board. I'm guessing it's well under 100ma, maybe well under 50ma.
Quotei'm tellin you guys, most of that gain is being swallowed up by the filters. when the ffm broke on mine, i had TONS of fuzz, and tons of volume. as soon as i fixed it, the fuzz got weak again.
Then maybe we should find a place to cut into, and bypass the filters, when running straight fuzz. Maybe simulate the "problem" Jimi had, with DPDT switches? I WANT MORE, LOUDER, FUZZ!!! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: The fuzz is really raunchy on this thing, and I'd like to use it on it's own sometimes, without the formants.
QuoteThe output of the fuzz circuit is determined by the voltage on the base of Q21, which is modulated by the fuzz mix and modulation controls. Below about 1.8-1.9V it cuts off entirely. It may be that you have a bad part that is keeping it too low.
I'll have to test the voltage here then, but as soon as I hit any formant switch, it really boosts the volume. No formants, less volume. Maybe changing the value of R32 (470K) on the console board? What do you think R.G.? Also, it may explain why in Fuzz only mode, there is a sweet spot in the middle of the slider. Below it, you lose the fuzz, and above, it gets gated. I think Jimi reported that his unit has the same characteristic.
Quote from: digi2t on July 31, 2011, 10:43:12 PM
Quotei'm tellin you guys, most of that gain is being swallowed up by the filters. when the ffm broke on mine, i had TONS of fuzz, and tons of volume. as soon as i fixed it, the fuzz got weak again.
Then maybe we should find a place to cut into, and bypass the filters, when running straight fuzz. Maybe simulate the "problem" Jimi had, with DPDT switches? I WANT MORE, LOUDER, FUZZ!!! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: The fuzz is really raunchy on this thing, and I'd like to use it on it's own sometimes, without the formants.
It would be easy enough to pull the fuzz circuit out on its own as an effect. Then you could eat all you want.
QuoteI'll have to test the voltage here then, but as soon as I hit any formant switch, it really boosts the volume. No formants, less volume. Maybe changing the value of R32 (470K) on the console board? What do you think R.G.? Also, it may explain why in Fuzz only mode, there is a sweet spot in the middle of the slider. Below it, you lose the fuzz, and above, it gets gated. I think Jimi reported that his unit has the same characteristic.
I think Jimi's right - the filters really eat up the signal level. This probably happens two ways: one, they have to be kept to a low signal level so the filters don't distort, and two, bandpass filtering by its nature gives a lower output by removing most of the signal that doesn't happen to be in the pass band.
I believe that the terminal-strip amplifier was an attempt to patch the problem in the originals. Easy enough to do more of that today if needed.
Hey. Here's a question. Didn't you say your unit had a wire in place of the resistor at R22? Any chance of you opening that and measuring the current through it?
I'm off into power supply design. I think Digikey has an $11 wall wart that will do a nice job of powering this if the current's low enough. It's rated at 24Vac, but puts out 30Vac no load. So at low loads, you get peaks of about 45Vdc from it. This will only work if the current drain is well under 100ma, I think.
I'm in the middle of trying to decide how much of the clone boards ought to be pristinely original, and how much ought to be adapted to modern parts and techniques for ease of cloning. So the questions of whether to adapt it for voltage up-verting from 9V, a high voltage wall wart, or a switching wart, whether to put a post-filters amplifier in, and some others keep biting me. This is made somewhat worse by the current state of the PCB. It has the original circuit plus the terminal strip amplifier on it, and the console plus filter boards fit nicely into an economical form to get short batches made. And it's **full**. :icon_eek: Putting one more resistor into the filter board for the biasing of the terminal strip amplifier meant I moved about 1/4 of the components on the entire board to add in one resistor. The next addition will move a bigger proportion if the size is to remain the same and resistors aren't changed to Japanese-radio stand-up style. It's one of those little intellectual exercises.
QuoteHey. Here's a question. Didn't you say your unit had a wire in place of the resistor at R22? Any chance of you opening that and measuring the current through it?
Ouf!! Ummm, weeeelllllll, alright. Only for you guys. Bridge it with the DMM and measure the DC amps, right? Only for my homeys.
QuoteIt would be easy enough to pull the fuzz circuit out on its own as an effect. Then you could eat all you want.
Yup, that would be cat's ass. When the formant switches are off, and the fuzz footswitch on, isolate the fuzz. I'd love to get that mega fuzz that Jimi was getting.
By the way, I measured the voltage on the base of Q21, in fuzz,and fuzz/voice modes, from minimum to maximum on the slider. In fuzz mode, it goes from 0.5 to almost 5 vdc. In fuzz/voice mode, it goes from 0.5 to 2 volts. 2 volts seems to be the magic number here insofar as the best fuzz sound is concerned. That's why it sounds great max'd in fuzz/voice, and about 1/3 of the way in fuzz. Anything higher, and it starts to gate.
Hmmm, I wonder what some BC109's would sound like here :icon_rolleyes:
i'm getting pm's about building clones for some people guys. i don't really know how to respond at this point. i'm thinking maybe keppy, rg, dino and me should have a chat to figure out what to do...me and dino pretty firmly believe this needs to be unleashed for the diy community pretty much, i have no prob with trying to help people clone it, i don't even mind being a solder hand here and there...but should we maybe make this a partially commercial venture, and maybe sell a kit?
i was thinking it might be a nice way to pay for aaron's webhosting for the next couple decades or so.. just a thought.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 01, 2011, 10:08:09 AM
i was thinking it might be a nice way to pay for aaron's webhosting for the next couple decades or so.. just a thought.
This is a most excellent idea. I would gladly be a part of that. I have a pile of 2N2646 to donate to the cause. Not much, really, but hopefully it'll help.
hi ron.
that'd be hip, bro. let's see what the guys all say. maybe i can build you one for a REAL clone theory..lol.
;)
heck, after this thing, i think i'll be able to build a space shuttle! ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 01, 2011, 10:21:27 AM
maybe i can build you one for a REAL clone theory..lol.
;)
I may not have an EH collection anymore soon.
why bro? that would suck!
R.G., I'll measure the current when I get a chance. One thing to keep in mind is the LEDs. I measured the current on those before I wired the board in, and the reading was 30+ mA. That's for 10 of them, in a mix of sizes & styles. If current is a factor, then builders might be limited on their lighting.
Here's the supply I used: 48v DC, 420 mA, about $17.50 once you get the plug for your home country's electrical system. Works great.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Phihong/PSAA20R-480-R/?qs=tRFR47brQK8R9AbFIo4HGw%3d%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Phihong/PSAA20R-480-R/?qs=tRFR47brQK8R9AbFIo4HGw%3d%3d)
Quote from: digi2t on August 01, 2011, 08:54:38 AM
Ouf!! Ummm, weeeelllllll, alright. Only for you guys. Bridge it with the DMM and measure the DC amps, right? Only for my homeys.
You're too kind!
QuoteYup, that would be cat's ass. When the formant switches are off, and the fuzz footswitch on, isolate the fuzz. I'd love to get that mega fuzz that Jimi was getting.
By the way, I measured the voltage on the base of Q21, in fuzz,and fuzz/voice modes, from minimum to maximum on the slider. In fuzz mode, it goes from 0.5 to almost 5 vdc. In fuzz/voice mode, it goes from 0.5 to 2 volts. 2 volts seems to be the magic number here insofar as the best fuzz sound is concerned. That's why it sounds great max'd in fuzz/voice, and about 1/3 of the way in fuzz. Anything higher, and it starts to gate.
Hmmm, I wonder what some BC109's would sound like here :icon_rolleyes:
Good info. I am doing all the figuring on how it works from simulation and mental imagery. There is nothing like actually listening to it.
Oh, and BC109s sound like turnips with a touch of sage and honey... :icon_lol:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 01, 2011, 10:08:09 AM
i'm getting pm's about building clones for some people guys. i don't really know how to respond at this point. i'm thinking maybe keppy, rg, dino and me should have a chat to figure out what to do...me and dino pretty firmly believe this needs to be unleashed for the diy community pretty much, i have no prob with trying to help people clone it, i don't even mind being a solder hand here and there...but should we maybe make this a partially commercial venture, and maybe sell a kit?
i was thinking it might be a nice way to pay for aaron's webhosting for the next couple decades or so.. just a thought.
I don't want to be part of any commercial venture. That doesn't limit you three, of course.
Do your homework well before you get a little bit pregnant, though.
i don't wanna do it commercially...just thought it may be a good way to pay back aaron for this forum's expense.
i just wanna build 4 of them, so i can have quadrophonic phase II's.
i'm going to thailand for stem cell therapy, my extra pair of legs should be ready by the time i get there.
;)
QuoteI don't want to be part of any commercial venture. That doesn't limit you three, of course.
Do your homework well before you get a little bit pregnant, though.
I'm with R.G. on that. No such thing as "a little bit pregnant". Personally, I would hate to f**k with karma, especially since there have been a lot of people here that have helped me with my diy adventures. I truely feel blessed in that respect. The only thing I can recommend is if Aron would like to sell a batch of boards, we can give him the layout, parts list, etc., and let him have at it. If that would help cover his expenses for the forum, so be it.
I don't have the time, resources, capital, or kohonas, to invest in such a dicey venture. Besides, I don't consider myself anything special, just a piece of the puzzle where this adventure is concerned. Someone would have pieced this together sooner or later. But, I must admit mihos, I'm damn proud that it was us. Got to work with 3 amazing individuals to boot. Bonus upon bonus.
And THAT, is good enough for me :icon_cool:.
works for me. i just hate some nefarious bass turd taking the work we've done and making it commercial. i WOULD like to see aaron come out ahead, as i believe if not for him this never would have been done...
but i agree, let's keep the karma clean. i have no prob helping peeps out, that was the whole reason i had envisioned this project in the first place.
is it ethical to sell a few clones? i don't see a problem with it. build one for yourself, maybe a couple friends, help others out if they get stuck..but we need to keep it open for the diy community. like dino said, yah, we could clone 'em...but they still will never be worth what the originals are.
so...let's move along, brothers. nothing to see here! ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 01, 2011, 01:18:01 PM
bass turd
I beg your problem? Some bias against us bassists?
i am a bassist, dude....fretless, 5 string and upright. :icon_biggrin:
i mean like as in a fish poo sniffer. :icon_mrgreen:
Don't get me wrong - I say that just because I personally have a conflict of interest. I work for an effects company, and when the workday is done, I mess with effects for fun. But selling clones is something that I don't think I can ethically do. It's not because of any issues with cloning, or karma. It's purely my internal limits on what I believe I should do. I don't know of any ethical problems for you about it.
QuoteI don't know of any ethical problems for you about it.
I understand completely R.G.. In my case, I'll always stop to help someone on the side of the road. I believe that someone is keeping score, somewhere. That's why some years ago, when my truck broke down on the side of the highway, in the middle of nowhere, on a February night when the mercury had dipped to -35 celcius, a woman was nice enough to pull over and give me a ride to the next rest area. 35 kilometers away.
Just a few weeks ago, I bought my Goldwing, I'm driving it through the backwoods to save time, the rear brake starts locking up on me. Ends up stopped dead on the side of a little country road. It's Saturday afternoon, around 5. So happened, 100 yards back, there was a small tractor repair shop, and so happens the shop is closed. But, the owner is outside, building a new shed. The man was nice enough to lend me the tools I needed to fix the problem (previous owner set the pedal wrong), and be on my way. Wouldn't even take the 10$ I tried to slip him.
And similar stuff has happened to me on other occasions. So me? I'm not messing with it :icon_smile:
I'll try and get that current reading to you tomorrow. Working night shift tonight, gotta go.
Later guys!
another phase II has turned up, with a gent named bill who'd phase II has been broken since 73. i'm hooking him up with the wiring info so he can get his back up and running.
i told him to join the forum and do a search...he'll find everything he needs to get it done.
;)
yah...karma is good. let's keep it like that...and invoke the nature of karma to protect this project from those who may be nefarious.
;)
Quote from: Dino
The only thing I can recommend is if Aron would like to sell a batch of boards, we can give him the layout, parts list, etc., and let him have at it.
+1. If this can help the forum, that's cool, but I don't have the time/expertise to make more than a few of these. I built my first pedal at the end of February. My board for this was drilled freehand with a Dremel and then soldered with a crappy iron from Radio Shack. Frankly, it's an act of God that we only had to debug documentation errors/omissions, rather than construction flaws.
Umm...Still want me to make you boards? ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 01, 2011, 01:18:01 PM
i have no prob helping peeps out, that was the whole reason i had envisioned this project in the first place.
I still have no friggin' idea how I ended up involved in this. I'd barely heard of this pedal before this thread, and I did those first layouts specifically because I didn't have time to actually try and build the thing. Despite this, I now have it, and I have difficulty reconstructing in my mind how it happened.???
I guess this pedal is my drunken tattoo. :icon_mrgreen:
Here's a teaser shot i took while packing:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Pedals/file-11.jpg)
that's one sexy lookin' pedal bro!!! ;)
hell yah, i still want boards!! ;)
jeez, keppy, how much to make me a front panel, too? that looks bitchin' bro!! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 01, 2011, 11:21:32 PM
jeez, keppy, how much to make me a front panel, too? that looks bitchin' bro!! :icon_mrgreen:
Thanks, but I'm not offering that service to anybody. Took me a few sheets of Press 'n Peel to get that MOSTLY right, and it's still not perfect. I have a hard time defining acceptable levels of smudge on something I accept money for. I'm still proud of it, though! For my second etched enclosure ever, and for the size of it, I think I did good.
If you wanna give it a try, though, I'll send you the PDF. Just 'cause it's you. ;)
BTW, just to be clear, it is NOT a panel. I etched the front of a 1590D.
Quote from: Keppy on August 01, 2011, 11:55:57 PM
Took me a few sheets of Press 'n Peel to get that MOSTLY right, and it's still not perfect. I have a hard time defining acceptable levels of smudge on something I accept money for. I'm still proud of it, though! For my second etched enclosure ever, and for the size of it, I think I did good.
Actually, it's pretty amazing. Nice work. If you're amenable, I'd like to get some photos of that. I did a section-by-section schemo and tech description of the thing, getting ready to post the final artwork. I think your box and assembly are a beautiful touch for inspiring others.
I think I may have mentioned, I have a favor owed me that will get a dozen plus a few board sets done commercially, double sided, silkscreened, etc. for about $20 a set final cost. I will expend that favor if someone wants to put together the group to make me not have to handle it other than getting them made. :icon_biggrin:
I hate herding cats. :icon_lol:
Quote from: R.G. on August 02, 2011, 12:07:08 AM
Quote from: Keppy on August 01, 2011, 11:55:57 PM
Took me a few sheets of Press 'n Peel to get that MOSTLY right, and it's still not perfect. I have a hard time defining acceptable levels of smudge on something I accept money for. I'm still proud of it, though! For my second etched enclosure ever, and for the size of it, I think I did good.
Actually, it's pretty amazing. Nice work. If you're amenable, I'd like to get some photos of that. I did a section-by-section schemo and tech description of the thing, getting ready to post the final artwork. I think your box and assembly are a beautiful touch for inspiring others.
Thanks, R.G.! I really appreciate that. I'm gonna post closeups, gutshots, etc. once I'm unpacked. Right now I'm at a hotel and the pedal is buried in a Uhaul trailer. I'm planning a video too, once I get it dialed in. I postponed that process, since I thought I'd be a good guinea pig for any trimmer setting procedure that gets posted in the next few days (hint, hint guys ;))
Quote
I think I may have mentioned, I have a favor owed me that will get a dozen plus a few board sets done commercially, double sided, silkscreened, etc. for about $20 a set final cost. I will expend that favor if someone wants to put together the group to make me not have to handle it other than getting them made. :icon_biggrin:
I like this idea. Less stress for me, better quality for Jimi et al. Plus, then I can finally build my wife's birthday present (5 weeks late and counting... :icon_eek:).
I posted the first cut at the tech analysis of the Ludwig at geofex. It needs more verbiage but that's how it works.
I'll post the PCB pattern soon as I get it cleaned up.
guys, i cannot wait to get my hands into this thing and build one.
keppy, i would be forever in your debt for the chance to get the faceplate done like yours did...especially since it says kep on it, and you're the guy that bit the bullet hard and made it happen.
rg...let me know about those plates please!!
don't know anything about press-n-peel....can someone hip me?
gonna belong the long arduos task of archiving the 40 pages of stuff for this project or so, and hopefully eventually condensing the actual electronic information.
i wanna make sure ALL this info is together in one place for the future of the DIY community.
thanks you guys for making my dreams come true. i am blessed to have buds like you. :icon_mrgreen:
off to see what rg's got up at geo...talk soon!
just looked at it...well done, rg. the only thing i differ with, is it seems to me the formant trajectory switches are interactive..or maybe i did too much of the stuff them guys at ludwig should have laid off? if i get a chance, i'll try and post a sound clip, but to me they definitely seem to affect each other! ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 02, 2011, 10:10:17 AM
rg...let me know about those plates please!!
Plates?? In Manuel's voice from Fawlty Towers... Que??
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 02, 2011, 10:22:32 AM
just looked at it...well done, rg. the only thing i differ with, is it seems to me the formant trajectory switches are interactive..or maybe i did too much of the stuff them guys at ludwig should have laid off? if i get a chance, i'll try and post a sound clip, but to me they definitely seem to affect each other! ;)
Everything I know about them is from the schematic and the verbal addenda that I was given. This raises my innate worry about GIGO - garbage in, garbage out.
I took the text descriptions and sketches of the switches and drew up the formant switches, then made a schemo from that, trying to make sense of the way the switches worked. It is entirely possible that I missed something along the way. I was very gratified when I got done drawing the schemos (this is back some years ago, remember) that the "parallel" setting in the drawings had both filters driven from the same control voltage, and the "counter" setting had them running from opposite-directions control voltages. I took on faith that the "vowel" setting worked because it came from a section of the circuit that seemed to produce something unique, and that also seemed to match my ideas about formant 1 moving up, then down in frequency as F2 rose. That is - it seemed reasonable at the time.
A solid session of ohming out the formant switches to verify/not what I did might fix that. I hate to keep asking you and digi2t to dig the captive units open, especially since the console plate is so hard to get into.
i don't think either of us minds, rg...
one big thing i wanna ask tho, is will it be possible to get the BOM /circuit board layouts etc into one cohesive file?
be nice to be able to just order everything up from mouser in one shot.
speaking of which...man...i made a big order from them last nite, what a pain in the tuckus... took me over 2 hours to order 66 things last nite!!
there's gotta be a better way...next time, i think i'll just call 'em. probably faster. ;)
but yah, part values and mouser stock numbers would be a godsend for us newbes...i get the vibe that it's gonna be hard to populate the board already, let alone if someone
gets the wrong size and type of parts.
like i am sure i did last nite. so many choices...lol...i got all metal 1% resistors, film caps wherever possible, etc...now wondering if i shoulda just got cheap ceramic caps and carbon comp resistors. ;) lol
but back to the original post, i believe the formant switches are interactive...so i will try and play with it a little today to see what's what.
what i meant by plates were the circuit boards you spoke of having made, RG...
i wanna build at least two of these puppies just for me. ;)
and i am willing to be the solder hand for other peeps if they're nervous about it, but i think the deal is gonna be buy one set of all components for you, and one set of all for me...
that way i can have a couple kicking around for friends, maybe turn over a clone or two, "handmade" to make ends meet when times are rough.
i dunno...brain death. if i DO sell any tho, i think it would only be fit to cut in aaron for a piece, and ask that anyone else who does that do the same.
thanks to all. ;)
Quote from: Keppy on August 01, 2011, 11:11:10 PM
Here's a teaser shot i took while packing:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Pedals/file-11.jpg)
Awwww Kep!!! THAT, is just down right sexy :icon_cool:. I love it. If I may take a cue from your unit, I might call mine the "Phase 2, too", or the "Phase Too Too" :icon_lol:
R.G., measured across R22, I mean the jumper where R22 might have been :icon_mrgreen:, on my DMM I'm getting 40.5mA. That's with the animation, and fuzz on.
Kep, as for the trimmers, there's probably going to be a bit of a range where these things will operate in. I haven't recieved the other unit yet, so I don't have a side-by-side comparision. I've decided to give you voltages instead of resistances, since the numbers are not always steady (caps nearby?). Here are the settings I've recorded, using the test points indicated in the original diagram, plus I've added a test point (TP10) for R20 (console), which is between the trimmer leg, and R19.
ENSURE THAT THE ANIMATION IS OFF, ALL FORMANTS OFF, THE FUZZ FOOTSWITCH IS ON, AND THE UNIT IS NOT IN BYPASS.
TP1
FUZZ/VOICE MODE = 1.285VDC (FUZZ MAX.), 116.0mVDC (FUZZ MIN.)
FUZZ MODE = 200mVDC (FUZZ MAX.), 0.775VDC (FUZZ MIN.) - IT RISES TO 1.285VDC ABOUT 1/3 OF THE WAY UP, AND THEN DROPS AGAIN.
TP2
TREADLE RANGE ADJUSTMENT
ADJUST R31 TO 4.08VDC (TOE DOWN), 13.86 VDC (HEEL DOWN)
SURPASSING THE VOLTAGES, EITHER HI OR LO, SHOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM AS LONG AS YOU COVER THIS RANGE. A LOWER "TOE DOWN" VOLTAGE WILL YIELD A HIGHER, THINNER SOUND, BUT RAISE THE LOW END (HEEL DOWN) AS WELL.
TP3
ADJUST R29 TO 3.914VDC
TP4
ADJUST R77 TO 6.36VDC
TP5
ADJUST R55 TO 3.15VDC
TP6
ADJUST R41 TO 3.90VDC
TP7
ADJUST R62 3.905VDC
TP8 = 9.72VDC
TP9 = 18.18 VDC
TP10 (BETWEEN LEG OF R20, AND RESISTOR R19 OF CONSOLE BOARD)
ADJUST R20 TO 115.5mVDC (OR, WITH POWER OFF, 1.527K OHMS TO GROUND)
**R4, AND R65**
R4
SET TO CENTER OF TRAVEL. THIS IS THE HI/LO RATE RANGE ADJUSTMENT. ADJUST TO TASTE, BUT IT MOVE THE RANGE OF THE RATE SLIDER AS A WHOLE.
R65 = TEST WITH POWER OFF - CONNECT ONE LEAD OF DMM TO LEG OF TRIMMER OPPOSITE LEG CONNECTING TO C28, AND OTHER LEAD TO CONNECTION POINT 6 (OR "B" OF OFF-BOARD AMPLIFIER TRANSISTOR). SET RESISTANCE TO 5.5K OHMS.
**THIS SEEMS TO ADJUST THE "BEEFINESS" OF THE OFFBOARD AMPLIFIER. AT MINIMUM (COUNTER-CLOCKWISE) THE SOUND IS KIND OF THIN, BUT AS YOU DIAL IT UP, THE TONE GET THICKER UNTIL THE UNIT BEGINS TO OSCILLATE. I RECOMMEND ADJUSTING THIS BY FLIPPING THROUGH EACH FORMANT, AND ROCKING THE TREADLE THROUGH THE RANGE. IF IT IS SET TOO HIGH, IT WILL OSCILLATE IN THE LOWER RANGES (HEEL DOWN). I HAVE MINE DIALED BACK JUST ENOUGH SO IT DOESN'T OSCILLATE IN ANY FORMANT MODE, OR TREADLE RANGE. IT ORIGINALLY CAME TURNED RIGHT DOWN (LIKE JIMI'S), BUT I DIALED MINE UP A BIT TO FILL OUT THE SOUND.
Once I get the other unit, I'll do a side-by-side comparison, and post the results.
Quotehell yah, i still want boards!!
I'll second THAT emotion!
i have compiled all the info from this project into one file now, soon, i hope to add the remaining bits and pieces. then i'll upload it in one massive zip file for posterity, and make a section of my dot com devoted to our work here. hopefully, that way, all this info will remain available to all for years to come.
;)
i actually printed out each of the two threads as text version pdf's, and each individual page, as well.
thanks guys...ya'll are the best!!! :icon_mrgreen:
I put the current version of the PCB up at geofex. Give a look and see what I missed, misspelled, drew wrong, left out, and so on.
I'll fold the trimmer setup in later.
awesome...getting it right now. thanks rg :icon_mrgreen:
Jimi, you should discuss the formant switches with Dino. His description of how they work matches what we have.
Yeah, that's kinda messin' me up as well. I've looked at them a bunch, and played with them more. They're wired, and work like the description.
Jimi, did you roll that sucker a bit too tight bro? :icon_biggrin:
A common problem in the music repair business is what the repair techs sometimes call 'amateur genius' repairs before they got the equipment. I wonder if while Jimi's unit was out of his hands it was fixed at. It would only take a wire or two being moved in that string of switches to make it do radically different things.
QuoteA common problem in the music repair business is what the repair techs sometimes call 'amateur genius' repairs before they got the equipment.
Hmmm, spillover from the automotive industry? :icon_lol: I'm figuring that maybe the tabs are bent, where the wires are soldered, possibly shorting some connections together. Those tabs are long enough to touch.
R.G., did you get my current reading from my previous post? Does 40.5mA sound right to you? I thought it would be higher, but then again, voltage is higher here, right?
I'm starting to get that melancholy feeling that this adventure will soon be over. What's the next project guys? EMS Synthi Hi-Fli? I found this btw; http://jbemond.free.fr/SDIY/EMS/EMS_Hifli.pdf (http://jbemond.free.fr/SDIY/EMS/EMS_Hifli.pdf) :icon_twisted:
Quote from: digi2t on August 02, 2011, 04:43:27 PM
R.G., did you get my current reading from my previous post? Does 40.5mA sound right to you? I thought it would be higher, but then again, voltage is higher here, right?
I would have guessed a total of 50ma if forced to say, so yes, that seems fine to me. That figure has nothing in it for the lights because they come from low voltage AC switched directly by parts of other switches. And so it doesn't account for any power used by LEDs if you use LED annunciation a lot.
I've been looking at recommended power supplies, and I'm starting to come around to Keppy's very practical view that you can get 48Vdc wall warts for under $20 at Mouser every day. These are uniformly 300ma to 500ma in that price range, so what does another hundred ma for LEDs matter? I'll probably come up with a few alternatives, but for solid works-first-time operations, that's probably the way to go. Things will get ugly if one plugs in the 48Vdc into the 9V daisy chain, but then education is always expensive, no matter how you pay for it. :icon_lol:
QuoteI'm starting to get that melancholy feeling that this adventure will soon be over. What's the next project guys? EMS Synthi Hi-Fli?
Sure. Just go track down a couple of "victims" to test on. :icon_eek:
We are close to where someone who's willing to etch a board can do their own. It's a little scary that the first version worked after we figured out the parts value changes and the pinout of the 2N2646. No adventure left, eh?
yah, i think my mind has been smoking the chocolate covered crack or something...looking at the circuit, it seems no way the switches could interact, or SHOULD interact.
(no, i don't smoke crack, by the way.. lol)
one of these days, i will open it up, don't believe it was modified tho in any way...the only thing i found was the damage done originally when the switch had broken.
yes, this adventure may be coming to an end, as all things must...but think about it guys...we cracked a nut that people have tried to crack for around 40 years, and in just a couple months.
we obtained units...we cracked 'em open, we traced the stuff, we repaired one, we built one... that's something nobody else can lay claim to...and in just a couple months. incredible.
now, i dare say, the adventure is over....we reached our destination. or DID we?
what about improving the circuit as we'd talked about? making the formant filters out of a couple chips? making it have ample gain instead of slightly less than unity? making the fuzz actually useful and useable?
i say, the adventure has really just begun. now we know how to build it, we know how it works...and we can update it and improve it, and maybe make something that no one ever envisioned from this humble starting point.
i can see this having a loop added, better fuzz, more control over which formants, yada yada...
what do ya say? is it worth seeing what we can build together, or should we just rest satisfied on our well-deserved seats of achievement?
;)
man...i shoulda been a politician. except i'm not a crook. :icon_mrgreen:
Hi guys,
Got the other unit today. Esthetically, it's A++. Totally complete, knobs, trim, handle, lights, the works. Extremely clean. Even got the original shipping box, and an original ad :icon_eek:.
So the skinny is this. It had fuzz working, but the pedal was dead, and no animation. You could hear the formant filters come on, but that was it.
Inside of an hour, I had it working. Loose terminal clips on the console board, and the treadle pot had been forced, so the pot had turned, and one of the lugs had grounded to the base :icon_confused:.
The rate slider will have to be cleaned though, I'm only getting action on the top 1/3. Unfortunately, someone had already gone in and really messed around with the trimmers, so there's no useful info to be gleaned here. I did set it up with the same setting as my other unit though, and they both sound exactly the same. R65 was set all the way down (ccw), like my other one when I got it.
Here's the interesting bit. My first unit is serial #1277, no piggybacked resistor on the fall board. This unit is serial #1372, and like Jimi's, it's got the added resistor. I think Jimi's is in the 1300's series as well, if memory serves me.
I'm going to look into some different clips, but I think I'm going to just end up soldering all the wires direct. No fuss, no muss. Will work forever.
So the 1M parallel resistor has no effect on the sound at the settings Dino was able to try. R.G, you said that was part of the output section, right? So any audible effect should happen at all settings, right? Weird. I wonder why they started putting that in, since the unit works fine without it. :-\
i'm telling you guys, DRUMMERS ON LSD!!! :icon_mrgreen:
my friend mr bill has joined the forum, too...he's the guy i mentioned that was so jazzed we did this, as now he can fix his which has been broken since 1973.
be interesting to see which revision his one is!! ;)
Quote from: Keppy on August 03, 2011, 07:52:23 PM
So the 1M parallel resistor has no effect on the sound at the settings Dino was able to try. R.G, you said that was part of the output section, right? So any audible effect should happen at all settings, right? Weird. I wonder why they started putting that in, since the unit works fine without it. :-\
I'll try this tomorrow; I'll disconnect one end of the 1M resistor with the iron, and do an A - B test of sorts. Just toggle the resistor on and off, and listen to the difference. It bridges between B and C of Q7, so maybe I'll hear what Q7 is up to at the same time.
I think what happened is that they got a design that was not tolerant of part variation.
In my era of EE schooling, designing cirucits to work pretty much irrespective of whatever junk parts you put in was considered an art form. The idea was to make your circuits sensitive to one or two things that set how you wanted them to work, and insensitive to wide variations on all the rest.
The alternative was a high percentage of finished goods that did not work as designed without individual tweaking. And even trimmers were a sign of non-manliness in design. If you had to put a trimmer in, it was a dead giveaway that you were not really cut out for circuit design. At the very best something you didn't want noticed.
I think they got the design, built them, then found out that half of the first batch didn't work. Then they started patching.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 03, 2011, 11:22:07 AM
what about improving the circuit as we'd talked about? making the formant filters out of a couple chips? making it have ample gain instead of slightly less than unity? making the fuzz actually useful and useable?
i say, the adventure has really just begun. now we know how to build it, we know how it works...and we can update it and improve it, and maybe make something that no one ever envisioned from this humble starting point.
i can see this having a loop added, better fuzz, more control over which formants, yada yada...
Now this might sound crazy but how about... simplifying the circuit in to a standard phaser that'll fit a 1590BB.
Maybe just one modulated filter (okay you'll loose that vocal sound but who knows what it might be like) add in a modern sounding fuzz/distortion option, Opamp LFO and a nice new input and output, true bypass and get it to run off 9V (or maybe use a LT1054 charge pump, not sure how the design works) and have it run off standard transistors.
I'll have to study these schematics to see if that's doable, at the moment i'm just guessing from a brief glance of R.Gs tech notes.
Quote from: Scruffie on August 03, 2011, 11:53:38 PM
Now this might sound crazy but how about... simplifying the circuit in to a standard phaser that'll fit a 1590BB.
Maybe just one modulated filter (okay you'll loose that vocal sound but who knows what it might be like) add in a modern sounding fuzz/distortion option, Opamp LFO and a nice new input and output, true bypass and get it to run off 9V (or maybe use a LT1054 charge pump)
It kinda sounds like you want a completely different effect. The Phase II is based off of bandpass filters, not all-pass/phase shifting filters. If you want an LFO-controlled single filter (not phaser) you just might be better off with the Lightwah (a recent project of deadastronaut's, if you haven't seen it yet). Even if you wanted to change the type of filters or use selectable filters, that sounds more like what you're describing than the Phase II does, IMO. That might be a better starting point for what you're after (which sounds like a cool project, BTW).
Quote from: Keppy on August 04, 2011, 01:15:46 AM
Quote from: Scruffie on August 03, 2011, 11:53:38 PM
Now this might sound crazy but how about... simplifying the circuit in to a standard phaser that'll fit a 1590BB.
Maybe just one modulated filter (okay you'll loose that vocal sound but who knows what it might be like) add in a modern sounding fuzz/distortion option, Opamp LFO and a nice new input and output, true bypass and get it to run off 9V (or maybe use a LT1054 charge pump)
It kinda sounds like you want a completely different effect. The Phase II is based off of bandpass filters, not all-pass/phase shifting filters. If you want an LFO-controlled single filter (not phaser) you just might be better off with the Lightwah (a recent project of deadastronaut's, if you haven't seen it yet). Even if you wanted to change the type of filters or use selectable filters, that sounds more like what you're describing than the Phase II does, IMO. That might be a better starting point for what you're after (which sounds like a cool project, BTW).
Yeah I know it wont sound like a Ludwig any more... but for some reason the idea appeals to me, a bit like Beans new project using the original univibe LFO with lamps and all but hooked up to a simple transistor vibrato (think it's Escobedos Wobbletron) kinda like the Run off groove Phozer.
Based off bandpass huh... as I said I didn't read the notes or check the schematic yet, just going off bits i've picked up from glancing at these two threads.
Swept bandpass could be cool though and yeah I could go off deadastronauts project... or I could make a bat shit insane overly complex effect that I can
say is based off a Ludwig :icon_mrgreen: even if the results aren't too dissimilar.
You might be right about using just a single filter though... it's probably more worth it to just have both... sure it'll complicate it a bit but I think it'd still fit a 1590BB judging by the pictures of the original board I saw.
It is entirely possible to start with the concepts in the Ludwig and come up with a more modern pedal. I have actually done that already. It was more direct than getting the original to work as it turns out - no long-ago quirks to figure out. I also left out many of the functions of the animation circuits, as those seemed to be overly complex for my taste.
I had always been interested in using formant filters to make voice imitators; that's what led me to put the stuff about wahs and voice formants at geo. But with one thing and another, it didn't get done until I started messing with the Ludwig again. Choice of filters is one quirky issue. Multiple feedback is quirky, wah style needs one inductor per filter, and state variable does everything you want and so much more that it's hard to throttle them down to what you do want.
The Ludwig is an interesting archeological widget. It probably makes more sense to design from principles for today's technology than to simplify it down. But tinkering for the purpose of intellectual curiousity is always a valid thing to do. Go for it.
If I were redesigning the Ludwig today, I'd probably use a CMOS logic or a 555 for the animation LFO, which has a square wave output after all. A single 556 might do all of that, including the opposite-phase output. I'd use some other filter format, at least partly because I still don't understand how the Ludwig's filters work, and don't feel inclined to dig it out because they require a lot of hardware and real estate, and there are other ways to do it. I'd be tempted to provide the control/animation as as microcontroller with PWM outputs for the control voltages, as this would go directly from an input control to output voltages for the filters in one step with a cloud of programming.
Hey R.G., is there a CMOS chip that reproduces mojo? :icon_biggrin: We have an expression here in Quebec. If we didn't love you, we wouldn't tease you. :icon_mrgreen:
I did the test on the piggy-backed resistor at R33 on the fall board. It helps to squelch some to the high end frequencies. If you really slow down the "yoyoyoy" to "yooooooiiiiiiiii", the "iiiiiiiii" part sounds less harsh with the added resistor. Try it Kep, just take a 1M resistor, and jump it on manually while the unit is modulating, you should hear some of the high frequencies get killed off. I'll probably throw that mod onto unit #1 as well, it sounds better. Probably explains why my unit always sounded a tad brighter that Jimi's.
R.G., quick question (like I expect a straight answer after my little shot before :icon_wink:), on the second unit, I've got everything working, but the rate is not kosher. I'm getting modulation, but slow to fast, only in a small range of the slider. Adjusting R4 only seems to move that range either up or down on the slider pot. Also, the modulation is veeerrrrry slow to come on, even in fast mode. To my noob eye, I'm thinking that maybe C2, or C3, must be close to dead, not allowing the 2N2646 flip to last long enough to spread it out over the 500K range. Is my assumption correct?
Other than that, everything on this unit seems to be OK now. Soldering the clips to the pads is a +1, and I lost track of how many cold solder joints I had on the console board. To the point that R20 was doing nothing. Now, you can hear the frequency change as you move the dial. Must have been a Friday afternoon unit off the line. It would explain why the previous owner messed with all the trimmers, probably trying to figure out what the hell was wrong with it. Except for the rate range problem, I've got it sounding exactly like unit #1, yoyoyoy and all.
i'd be interested in seeing if we could create a modernized version of the phase ii...maybe call it the phaseIII...but don't wanna see it lose it's mojo.
once i get a clone built, i may just send you my unit rg so you can check it out for a while. it is addictive enough where i'd worry you wouldn't send it back...
but i believe that it is a little cooler than it may appear once you actually play one for a while.
and i think, tho we've cracked the nut and are seeing it's guts in a whole new light, it may take a while to get a true grip on all that it does.
jmo.
;)
Quote from: digi2t on August 04, 2011, 09:52:03 AM
Hey R.G., is there a CMOS chip that reproduces mojo? :icon_biggrin: We have an expression here in Quebec. If we didn't love you, we wouldn't tease you.
:icon_biggrin:
Actually there is. I've applied for patents, copyright, *AND* trademark protection as well as general deityhood for a new Mystic Mojo (c) (tm) (r) (pdq) chip that I make myself out of leftover dual opamps crossbred with industrial programming controllers. The real secret is pickling the chips after crossbreeding by burying them at the crossroads at midnight on the night of a full moon in a mixture of lime juice and leftover coffee. A little salt doesn't hurt, either, and is useful for an ocean tone for playing sea chanties.
Fortunately, I was able to work out a way that didn't require Icelandic virgins. :icon_lol:
Quote...on the second unit, I've got everything working, but the rate is not kosher. I'm getting modulation, but slow to fast, only in a small range of the slider. Adjusting R4 only seems to move that range either up or down on the slider pot. Also, the modulation is veeerrrrry slow to come on, even in fast mode. To my noob eye, I'm thinking that maybe C2, or C3, must be close to dead, not allowing the 2N2646 flip to last long enough to spread it out over the 500K range. Is my assumption correct?
Interesting question. The speed to come on is determined by R1 and R2 on the console board charging C1. Until that ramps up from zero after the animation switch lets it go, no animation happens. C2, R4, R5 and the animation speed pot determine the actual speed that the animation runs once C1 comes up to the voltage that makes it run. C3 isn't really involved in the animation speed. It's either big enough and good enough to trigger the flipflop of Q3/Q4 or it isn't.
I think you have a good intuition on the cause, not enough voltage for the animation LFO, but ought to also be suspicious of C1. If it were mine, I'd replace both C1 and C2. Well, OK, I'm a bit of a nut about electros, I'd replace all the electros, but for these symptoms, those two particularly.
lol...+1 on the electros...don't risk catastrophic failure!!!!
rg...i'll take them chips, i gotta effect that could use them for the output stage..
it's basically a micro leslie run by hamsters of a secret steroidal cactus juice i devised while mixing ammonia and bleach with...
well...i can't give ALL the particulars...but let me tell ya what, it creates one heck of a stomach churning effect!! :icon_mrgreen:
DAMN!!!! IT WAS THE LEFT OVER COFFEE!!!! I can't imagine how many Icelandic virgins you've been through to date :icon_lol:
QuoteI think you have a good intuition on the cause, not enough voltage for the animation LFO, but ought to also be suspicious of C1. If it were mine, I'd replace both C1 and C2. Well, OK, I'm a bit of a nut about electros, I'd replace all the electros, but for these symptoms, those two particularly
+1 on that. I believe C6 might be acting up as well. Now I'm starting to lose the yoyoy vowel sound somewhat, and I'm getting popping when I switch between different formants. Also, moving R20 yeilds no frequency changes at all. I think a complete cap job is in order here. No point f**king around with the puck here, might as well shoot and (hopefully) score.
Thanks R.G.!
QuoteTo the point that R20 was doing nothing. Now, you can hear the frequency change as you move the dial.
Found the problem here. Bad solder joints at the junction points of R16, R18, and R19. Q5 is now reacting properly to R20 input.
The soldering on this puppy is a freakin' trainwreak. Reminds me of the first shuttle, Enterprise, when they flew it piggyback from California to Florida on a 747. When they touched down in the Cape, half of the heat resistant tiles had come off in flight. Had everybody wondering/laughing how the thing was supposed to survive re-entry, when it couldn't even make it across the country in one piece. Unbeknownst to the public at the time, General Dynamics had put a community good will program into place at the time. They were giving ex-con's jobs, part of a government program, to get them off the street, and reintegrate into society.
Well, these guy's weren't that dumb. Sorta...
They saw an opportunity to "milk the cow" so to speak. They figured that if they only put half the required amount of glue on some of the tiles, they would have a source of job security. Some tiles fall off, shuttle comes back, glue some more on, and so on. Needless to say, after the investigation, the program was killed off.
I'm beginning to think that, that work force must have come from the Ludwig plant :icon_mrgreen:
You have in a nutshell why the Ludwig P2 died. No matter how good the inspiration might have been, the resulting design (which by definition means design-for-manufacturing, or lack thereof) was too fragile to live in the real world. "Too fragile" is a serious flaw in design.
(Competent) engineers know that there is a hierarchy of cost associated with fixing mistakes. If a design has no mistakes - meaning *anything* which the customer perceives as a flaw - the cost is zero. There are no designs like this, because there are *customers* with flaws who will find fault with even an otherwise-perfect design. But if a flaw/mistake can be found and corrected in the design phase, when no actual products are being built, the cost is, say 1X at that time.
Correcting flaws when the product is being prototyped means fixing prototypes, correcting orders for parts, reworking, retesting, etc. and so the cost is 10X for each one found. If a problem escapes and is caught during manufacturing, the cost escalates again, to about 100X because now every unit has to be manually reworked while incorrect stock and parts have to be scrapped. If the flaw is only found by the customer, the cost to fix is easily 1000X, and that's only if the customers are not lawyers.
(Competent) engineers know that serious errors in products in the field often cost them their jobs, either directly by angry management, or indirectly by killing off the product and its follow ons or bankrupting the company.
hey dino, i would still seriously advise replacing ALL the electros in it...i mean, 40 year old caps are gonna fail catestrophically eventually.
Yup, electros and the tropical fish as well. It's on my "honey-do" list.
I'm working all weekend, but I'll check the values vis-a-vis the diagram this week. Once I'm sure everything matches up, I'm going to start ordering any caps I don't already have. All the electros for sure, I only have radials in stock.
I wonder if green chicklets would be alright here? I've got lots of those. They should be fine in place of the tropicals. I'll have to double check the specs.
Tropical fish caps are metalized mylar. The bands were how they did the value coding, like resistor bands.
Any metalized mylar with a voltage rating over the working voltage should be find. I think all chicklets have voltages over 50V, so go with them.
The magic mojo of tropical fish caps is... um, advertising.
I finally got around to playing with the trimmers. There's a lot of weirdness in here, but a lot of the settings make one thing sound cool and another sound unuseable. I found that the easiest way for me was to go (sort of) in the order posted by R.G. here:
Quote from: R.G. on July 28, 2011, 10:53:18 AM
Keppy,
Got the filter fired back on the simulator, put the circuit mods in. None of the changes made much of a difference either way so far, at least as regards getting a filter sound.
What *was* critical was the setting of R29. Unless this is just right, you get no filtering. So pick a filter, set up points 8 and 9 on the filter board to be about 2.5V, then tweak R29 til you get a filter sound. If that doesn't work, I can read values off the sim for DC voltages that should get you closer. I suspect that as critical as the setting is in simulation, that may be one of the biggest remaining issues.
I can come up with rationales for the other trimmers.
R31 sets the amount of DC on the rocker pedal so it moves Q5 on the console the right amount to make the control voltages for the two filters.
R41 and R62 have to do with either the sensitivity/idle frequency/balance of the two filters as respects the voltage made on R29. They are much less touchy than R29.
R55 and R77 are a balance between the two halves of the filter sides; don't know exactly what they do yet, but again, much less touchy.
R65 seems to be an output level control for the high formant filter. It won't keep it from filtering.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 28, 2011, 09:58:31 AM
r.g., tell me what to do, i've gotta couple hours free...no idea what to check or where...but if ya tell me say "check at both sides of r56 to ground with a voltmeter" i can probably handle that without screwing it up too badly. ;)
Actually, you've been immensely helpful in running stuff down. What would be very useful is to clip your voltmeter black lead to ground (wires 13 and 14 on the bottom board are handy), then measure the voltage with the red probe on
- all the transistor collector pins; collectors only should be enough. The schemo shows you where the collectors are.
- voltage on the wipers of the trimpots.
- voltages at wire/connections 8, 9, and any one of the places labeled with the funny greek letter in the circle on the schematic. The schemo also shows you where the pick off points for it are.
Given how critical that voltage is, I maybe should put in a test point on the PCB for setting it.
My modified version:
*Note: be careful with your volume, as some of these adjustments (particularly R65 & R77) can cause loud oscillations.
1) Start with R65 all the way counterclockwise and all others at halfway.
2) Turn on Fuzz RPT and adjust R4 (console) for desired range on the Animation Rate pot.
3) Turn off Animation. Have a friend (my wife, in my case :)) play guitar and work the treadle.
4) In Vowel mode, adjust R29 until you hear "yoyoyoyo" as the treadle is moved.
5) Switch to Counter mode, which is more extreme and harder to tame. Adjust R20 (console) to taste. You may wish to recheck this adjustment in vowel mode.
6) Repeat step 5 for R31
7) In Vowel mode, adjust R41 & R62 to intensify the "yoyoyoyo" effect. Switch to Counter mode and readjust R41 & R62 to tame the effect if necessary.
8) Repeat step 7 for R55 & R77.
Since these adjustments affect one another, you may find yourself jumping back a few steps to refine an adjustment made earlier.
9) After making all other adjustments, set the animation switch to Both, turn the Intens. Fuzz Rpt knob all the way up and begin adjusting R65 while the guitar continues to play. This adjusts the volume of the Fuzz Rpt effect.
Consider this open for comments & modifications.
Apparently typing "8" followed by ")" gets you 8)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Pedals/file-12.jpg)(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Pedals/file-13.jpg)(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Pedals/file-20.jpg)(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Pedals/file-18.jpg)
Quote from: Keppy on August 07, 2011, 01:00:04 AM
Apparently typing "8" followed by ")" gets you 8)
What do you type for DROOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL!!!
Amazing job Kep! Congratulations! I'm looking forward to a sound byte, or video, when your shit storm settles down.
Thanks Dino!
Forgot to say, R.G., that you're free to grab those photos for your docs if you still want to. I can also email you higher res if you need them.
Quote from: Keppy on August 07, 2011, 01:48:29 AM
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Pedals/file-12.jpg)(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Pedals/file-13.jpg)(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Pedals/file-20.jpg)(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Pedals/file-18.jpg)
wood....
damn, i think i gotta visit the bathroom ....real quick... :icon_mrgreen:
Absolutely beautiful Kep !!!!!!!! :o :icon_mrgreen:
aha! well done, and nice demo...but trimmer r61 (i think it is...right corner area of fallboard ) is adjusted wrong...you shouldn't get those oscillations when ya move the treadle. r41 (i don't have the schem in front of me) will also do that. you may wanna back one then the other off just til it stops...then it will be calibrated right.
but sounds and looks great, keppy!!
we done, mate, well done!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
A beautiful design job! I will use the photos if you don't mind.
A few other questions: what is the size of box you have it in, and what are the relative spacings on the controls?
It's so good that I think I may do an alternate console layout for people who want to eliminate a lot of the wires.
it is indeed beautiful...once he backs off that trimmer, he's got the ludwig nailed!!!!!!!!!! sounds great,. looks even better! :icon_mrgreen:
Yeah, it was tough to dial in because the oscillations happen mostly just in counter mode, but the adjustments all affect multiple modes. I'll give it a shot, though.
R.G., should I just send you the etch file to measure? The original's in Illustrator, but I can save it in a different format.
Quote from: Keppy on August 08, 2011, 05:19:49 PM
R.G., should I just send you the etch file to measure? The original's in Illustrator, but I can save it in a different format.
I'd love it if you could. I use corel draw, so if you can export to something like PDF or whatever.
I've been staring at the circuit for ways to get rid of that mess of wires, at least part of them.
Cool. I used a 1590D. Forgot to say that earlier.
Quote from: Keppy on August 08, 2011, 07:48:39 PM
Cool. I used a 1590D. Forgot to say that earlier.
That's what I'd have guessed, but asking someone who knows is more certain. :icon_biggrin:
Do you think the Lo-Z balance and "Bypass Balance" knobs need to be front panel controls - or even there? I mean, they're interesting for historical accuracy, but may not be all that useful for a modern pedalboard. I can just hear the posts for "I build a Ludwig phaser clone, and it doesn't phase. And is there some way to wire it for true bypass, 'cause I hear that's always better."
Dino & Jimi talked me into keeping those. I was afraid the effect level would be quieter than the dry signal without the bypass balance pot to make them match. Jimi & Dino also thought the two inputs were cool. Personally, I could see using the second to turn it into an interesting talkbox, but I haven't tried it yet. I say make the second input optional, and don't make a true bypass version until one of us confirms that the levels will match. Honestly though, even in that case I'd leave the build as is and just include instructions for the true bypass mod. A jumper on the board should leave it free for standard off-board bypass wiring.
Probably right.
One other question. Which actual brand/type switches did you use? I'm thinking you went to an extra pole for a couple of the LEDs.
I'm trying to pick things which can be found/bought practically everywhere. I have considered going to single pole switches and then PCB relays to do the actual switching. The tough nut is that on/on/on switch for "both".
Yeah, the 4pdt on/on/on was like $17 :icon_eek:
I'll check when I get home, but they're nothing special, just a mix of standard toggles from Mouser & Small Bear. In fact, they're probably all from Small Bear, except for the 4pdt which was the series Dino posted and came from Mouser.
Quote from: Keppy on August 09, 2011, 10:21:07 PM
Yeah, the 4pdt on/on/on was like $17 :icon_eek:
I'll check when I get home, but they're nothing special, just a mix of standard toggles from Mouser & Small Bear. In fact, they're probably all from Small Bear, except for the 4pdt which was the series Dino posted and came from Mouser.
The hard nut to crack is the on-both-on of course.
I think I've found a way to get around that. I think I can use a second transistor on each output of the flipflop, driven through a large base resistor. The switch can be either SP3T or DP3T and be a short-to-ground on the bases of the second transistors, which prevents them from passing on the flipflop outputs. Using the switch as a shunt to ground which inhibits one side or the other, or neither one in the middle lets me use a much cheaper ($3.50) on-off-on switch plus two cheap transistors. I guess even more to the point, using a DP3T center off lets me use toggles with all the same body height, so they can all be circuit board mounted. I'm pretty sure I get all the controls and switches except the footswitches on a single PCB, similar to the original Ludwig console board, but this time there are no wires to the pots and switches. I think there are still 8 or 10 wires to the filter board, but it cleans up a lot of the wiring. To get that, all the switches and pots have to be mountable in the same exact height.
I'm thinking that you used DPDTs on all of them and used the spare pole for the LED, correct?
3PDTs, actually. The filters are 2-pole to start with. The fuzz & fast/slow can be DPDT with LEDs, though.
It gets complicated if you use bicolor LEDs. I attempted to match the original colors as closely as I could, which led to some weirdness. For example, I couldn't find a red/orange LED for the fuzz switch, so I had to make do with a red/yellow with the red always on. Since the red was brighter than the yellow, that lead required a resistor to ground in addition to the resistor to the common supply. Some of my LEDs had common anode, others common cathode. Some had 2 leads, some 3. The different brightnesses all required different resistor values, too. I actually had to put the lighting scheme on the breadboard before installing it just to make sure it would work.
I probably overdid it a bit.
Hi guys,
It's been a hectic week this week. Between baseball, and my hard drive crashing ( :icon_evil: got it all going again last night), I haven't had time to really check in.
Kep, once again, great job! I was wondering, has anyone compliled a proper BOM yet? I'm gearing up to do the cap refit on my units, but if there is a BOM available, then I won't have to waste my time doing a physical inventory. I'll just isolate the caps on the list, and order from there.
Thanks,
Dino
Quote from: Keppy on August 10, 2011, 01:09:35 AM
3PDTs, actually. The filters are 2-pole to start with. The fuzz & fast/slow can be DPDT with LEDs, though.
Ah. OK. ...rummaging through Mouser... OK. Can get a 3PDT in the same family of switches as the DP3T on-off-on as well as more normal DPDTs. And they're in the $3-$4 range.
QuoteIt gets complicated if you use bicolor LEDs. I attempted to match the original colors as closely as I could, which led to some weirdness. For example, I couldn't find a red/orange LED for the fuzz switch, so I had to make do with a red/yellow with the red always on. Since the red was brighter than the yellow, that lead required a resistor to ground in addition to the resistor to the common supply. Some of my LEDs had common anode, others common cathode. Some had 2 leads, some 3. The different brightnesses all required different resistor values, too. I actually had to put the lighting scheme on the breadboard before installing it just to make sure it would work.
I probably overdid it a bit.
Nothing succeeds like excess. :icon_biggrin:
I was thinking that a single LED would work for everything except the fuzz-both-ffm, where a bicolor would work nicely.
Quote from: digi2t on August 10, 2011, 08:34:07 AM
I was wondering, has anyone compliled a proper BOM yet? I'm gearing up to do the cap refit on my units, but if there is a BOM available, then I won't have to waste my time doing a physical inventory. I'll just isolate the caps on the list, and order from there.
I'll tell the PCB program to spit out a BOM.
QuoteI'll tell the PCB program to spit out a BOM
I greatly appreciate that amigo :icon_biggrin:
Cheers!
me too...i can't wait to build this thing.
today, i start on either the vocalizer, the mouthmeister, or possibly a klon...all the parts came in finally. just a question of which i want to start with.
built a variant of the dunlop jh1 the other day...but twisted it so the "suck" knob is off.
reverse the electro and diode polarity, use a 500r trimmer to replace the 330r resistor, and pop in some NOS GE russian pnp's, and yeehaw, nice sounding pedal!! ;)
sorry for the hijack...lost my mind for a moment there`!
:icon_biggrin:
Quotesorry for the hijack...lost my mind for a moment there`!
No worries bro, we've actually become quite accustomed to your, ummm...."lostness", now.
Kinda like that crazy uncle, that always shows up right around the holidays. :icon_mrgreen:
POKE!
Personally, I'd be interested in the Vocalizer first, since there is no sound or video in exsistance to know what it sounds like.
that'll be a go, then, bro...i will go for the vocalizer next.
i'm bummed...i built most of the klon(e) today....freakin' mouser screwed up and forgot to send me 3 lousy parts i had ordered...
oh well. ;) two lousy caps and a stinkin' single resistor are on their way. :thu:
i'll start on the vero tonite for the coloursound pedal. :icon_mrgreen:
Instead of the BOM, I posted the first edition of the revised layout and a BOM. It's up at GEO now, first thing on the "new" page.
I'm sure I did my usual good job on columns of numbers and letters - that is, getting them subtly wrong. :icon_biggrin: I notice that my software didn't translate "1/4" very well, so "1/4 W" came out as "...W". I'll get that fixed everntually. I still have to get Kep's pictures in there. It's too good not to memorialize.
Time to order parts! Thanks to everyone who made this possible!!!
;D
looks great, rg!! gonna go over it when i get a little more time, right now i'm preparing dino's vero layout for the vocalizer.
just got off the phone with him, he is one heck of a great dude..you, too, and keppy...
godlyke. ;)
lol
Thanks for posting that, R.G.! I especially liked the tech review. It's weird to think how much of this stuff I've learned in the past few months.
Anyway, I'm excited to see what designs other people make for this!
Good work all! Quite an accomplishment for sure.
Is there a schematic up that corresponds or did I miss it?
Hip hip hooray. :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: John Lyons on August 10, 2011, 11:46:07 PM
Is there a schematic up that corresponds or did I miss it?
Good question. R.G., did you update the one on your site from 2004?
John, the factory schems were posted earlier on another thread, but they're hard to read and we found errors. I'm guessing Geofex will have the corrected one soon.
I have the first version of the clone "console board" done.
With keppy's panel layout as a guide, I put pots and switches about where he had them, only changing the location to put the centers on grid so they would be easy to locate and drill. Then I started looking up pots and switches. If you put controls on a PCB, you have to be sure their dimensions are compatible, especially if the controls all mount in the same plane. The trick part here is the 3PDT on-on-on ffm/both/fuzz switch. Keppy used that 4PDT he found. I redesigned the circuit.
I used a 2PDT on-off-on; one pole runs the signals, one runs the LEDs. I used two new transistors driven by the outputs of the flipflop through 47K resistors, and used the signal pole to shunt one, the other, or neither of the bases to ground. That gives center-off being "neither one shut off", or both. Likewise, I ran the LEDs all the time, and the LED pole shunts one, the other, or neither LED to ground, shutting off that side of the red-green bicolor common cathode LED. The flipflop collectors give alternate-phase 0-16V square waves. I put in a 16V zener and ran the new transistors to 16V through 4.7K like the flipflops, so you get the same size signal out of the new transistors as the old flipflop.
I found the necessary DPDT, DPDT center off, and 3PDT on-on switches all in Mouser's catalog, from Mountain Switch, for under $3.5 each. These switches have a PCB-to-panel size of 0.415". No pots at Mouser mount on PCBs and have 0.415" mounting height. However, the 16mm size pots from BI and Taiwan Alpha have bodies that are 0.375" thick from the panel, leaving 0.035" of space; about right for double-sided foam tape. Which was good, because Mouser didn't have any pots which mount by their legs on PCB like I wanted. The 16mm solder lug pots do allow you to use stiff wires soldered into the lugs to go into the PCB though. And they have all the values, I think.
(Um, guys, what are the pot values for the Lo-Z balance and the Bypass balance, really? )
I decided that the footswitches would mount on the case and wires would run to the console and filter board. And that the analog lines to the filter board would come off the console board and footswitches. Also, all the LEDs mount on the PCB.
With all the pots, switches and LEDs spotted on the panel, I sketched out the biggest reasonable PCB for fitting inside the box, and went to work putting parts on the PCB. I reasoned that since it was three or four times the size of the tiny console board from the first layout, no problem running traces.
Wrong-O. It turns out that with so many places fixed in position, it was *hard* to run all the traces. No order or regularity could be exploited and every single part had to be placed and tinkered by hand. It fit - but not easily.
Quote from: Keppy on August 11, 2011, 12:25:49 AM
John, the factory schems were posted earlier on another thread, but they're hard to read and we found errors. I'm guessing Geofex will have the corrected one soon.
Good guess. :icon_biggrin:
Bypass Balance is 10k, Lo Z Balance is 5k, according to my notes from earlier posts. No one specified taper, but I found audio pots to work well (although I used 25k for the Lo Z pot as I didn't have any smaller log pots).
Thanks, Keppy. I'll update the BOM.
I got the first pass done of the control panel rehashed for fitting in to a 1590. It's now up at GEO. Give a look and see if it looks OK before I post the toner.
Board is 7" by 3.3", and completely replaces the console board, leaving the same filter board. But now all the wiring to the controls from the console board are on the PCB. Only the footswitches are not on the PCB, and that's because I couldn't find footswitches that fit the 0.415" spacing from the circuit board to the inside of the case.
If it looks OK, I'll also post the drilling guide for locating holes and the toner.
I'll have to look at this tomorrow night to check really thoroughly. It looks mostly good, but I think it's missing a wire on the bypass switch wiper, and my possibly-faulty memory says the animation footswitch is backwards (ground the switch connection to turn it OFF). The spacing is about what I had though. I'd say the drilling template is good to go!
In case you were wondering, I only put the two rightmost pots on a different level from the others so I could fit in the "formant trajectories" heading, along with the thick silvery dividing line, since I like shiny metal boxes ;D
Quote from: Keppy on August 12, 2011, 04:02:18 AM
In case you were wondering, I only put the two rightmost pots on a different level from the others so I could fit in the "formant trajectories" heading, along with the thick silvery dividing line, since I like shiny metal boxes ;D
Actually, I thought that was done for functional/human factors reasons. I like that they're set off differently from the other pots because they're least likely to be used once you get them like you like them. Silly me - I have the engineer's common failing that making it work comes first, then getting the appearance right. Doh! :icon_lol:
Quote from: R.G. on August 12, 2011, 12:37:08 PM
Quote from: Keppy on August 12, 2011, 04:02:18 AM
In case you were wondering, I only put the two rightmost pots on a different level from the others so I could fit in the "formant trajectories" heading, along with the thick silvery dividing line, since I like shiny metal boxes ;D
Actually, I thought that was done for functional/human factors reasons. I like that they're set off differently from the other pots because they're least likely to be used once you get them like you like them. Silly me - I have the engineer's common failing that making it work comes first, then getting the appearance right. Doh! :icon_lol:
Yeah, it turned out to be nice for other reasons, but the origin of that placement was purely cosmetic, so I could fit in all the elements I wanted.
Alright, I checked the file against the wiring diagram. There are a few problems, as follows:
1) Wiper of the Bypass stomp needs a connection to output jack.
2) The Fuzz stomp isn't right. I think you might have confused it with the Fuzz/Voice Fuzz toggle since you have it connected to filter pad 19 (and since they're both labeled "Fuzz Sw" on the wiring diagram). All the connections for the Fuzz stomp go the the filter board, not the console board. I see that you have the connections for the Fuzz stomp (Filter pads 7, 16 & 17) going to the console board, but they don't all come out to the stomp on your layout. Without the traces it's hard to tell what happened there.
3) The Animation stomp is backwards. Grounding the switch turns it off.
That's all I can tell without the traces. Personally, though, I would find it less confusing to have the rocker connections labeled "Toe" and "Heel" rather than "CW" and "CCW." That, and labeling the stomps as such.
I have some questions about spacing, as well.
1) Does the position of the console board leave room for the jacks?
2) Did you account for the height of a TO-220 in the Q6 spot? I didn't spot it in the layout.
This was a great idea, R.G. I spent hours just wiring up the LEDs for this thing, and hours more on the other off-board stuff. While I'm kinda proud that I actually got it to work, all that wiring is not a winning recipe for a successful repeatable build. You've made this much more easily achievable, and my hat's off to you!
Just a quick post, guys - Hold off on any Tropical fish cap changes.. my failures were unique and also involved some %^&*pit error on my part on the analysis (covered in the other thread). That being said, I'm going back to the beginning of this thread and read it through!
Quote from: Mr Bill on August 12, 2011, 11:08:34 PM
Just a quick post, guys - Hold off on any Tropical fish cap changes.. my failures were unique and also involved some %^&*pit error on my part on the analysis (covered in the other thread). That being said, I'm going back to the beginning of this thread and read it through!
Thanks for the heads up Bill. If you have any questions pertaining to the original units (not already covered here), just hollar. Between Jimi and myself, we've got 3 units that we can gander for info. That being said, I'm pretty sure this thread should cover everything pretty extensively.
Cheers,
Dino
Quote from: Keppy on August 12, 2011, 09:40:28 PM
1) Wiper of the Bypass stomp needs a connection to output jack.
Gotcha.
Quote2) The Fuzz stomp isn't right. I think you might have confused it with the Fuzz/Voice Fuzz toggle since you have it connected to filter pad 19 (and since they're both labeled "Fuzz Sw" on the wiring diagram). All the connections for the Fuzz stomp go the the filter board, not the console board. I see that you have the connections for the Fuzz stomp (Filter pads 7, 16 & 17) going to the console board, but they don't all come out to the stomp on your layout. Without the traces it's hard to tell what happened there.
Ah. I'll go back and look at that. Check your mail in a little while.
Quote3) The Animation stomp is backwards. Grounding the switch turns it off.
Doh!
Quote
That's all I can tell without the traces. Personally, though, I would find it less confusing to have the rocker connections labeled "Toe" and "Heel" rather than "CW" and "CCW." That, and labeling the stomps as such.
Good one. However, I'm not sure which is toe and which is heel. I'll go re-read the voltage listings here and see if I can ferret it out. I think the filters go up in frequency as the control voltage goes down. Also, the standard wah rack-and-pinion swaps clockwise and counterclockwise rotation on the pot. Toe down is counterclockwise, and vice versa.
Thanks for the extra set of eyes.
QuoteI have some questions about spacing, as well.
1) Does the position of the console board leave room for the jacks?
Yes. They fit entirely underneath it. Or can. I'll send a sketch. However, that does leave the space for the filter board kind of crowded. It may have to fit between jacks in the middle of the box, with all the jacks toward the ends longways to leave room for it.
Quote2) Did you account for the height of a TO-220 in the Q6 spot? I didn't spot it in the layout.
THAT's what I kept forgetting to do - change Q6 to a TO-220. I have now made Q6 a TO-220 and laid it down on the top of the PCB. I also put in extra pads for a TO-92 in case a builder likes that original/vintage smoke smell.
Quote
This was a great idea, R.G. I spent hours just wiring up the LEDs for this thing, and hours more on the other off-board stuff. While I'm kinda proud that I actually got it to work, all that wiring is not a winning recipe for a successful repeatable build. You've made this much more easily achievable, and my hat's off to you!
Well, my hat is still in my hand. :icon_biggrin: You've been a major help with this. First, coping with the what - what, four? - versions you got before you got to etch, then finding the base reversal, then inspiring this. I had always kind of thought that a control board PCB would be good, but just left it alone because the existing console board was done. I took one look at your wiring and realized that you have a lot of manual wiring skills, but that most people would not.
This thing is definitely not your two-jacks-three-knobs-and-a-stomp-switch pedal.
QuoteGood one. However, I'm not sure which is toe and which is heel. I'll go re-read the voltage listings here and see if I can ferret it out. I think the filters go up in frequency as the control voltage goes down. Also, the standard wah rack-and-pinion swaps clockwise and counterclockwise rotation on the pot. Toe down is counterclockwise, and vice versa.
FWIW, in the original units, the pot is on the leftside of the rack. Toe down = CCW, and Heel down = CW. If I remember correctly, voltage rises as heel goes down.
Quote from: R.G. on August 13, 2011, 12:22:50 AM
Good one. However, I'm not sure which is toe and which is heel.
Toe=ground (pin 22 or the bottom connection on your pot diagram)
Quote from: R.G. on August 13, 2011, 12:22:50 AM
I took one look at your wiring and realized that you have a lot of manual wiring skills, but that most people would not.
This thing is definitely not your two-jacks-three-knobs-and-a-stomp-switch pedal.
Thanks, but I'd say I have more persistence than skill. This was my first build five months ago (a gift for my wife. Don't make fun!):
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Pedals/WeddingRinger.jpg)
Two jacks, NO knobs, and a switch. And it just BARELY worked!
Needless to say, I found the challenge of the Phase II quite stimulating. :icon_eek: And I STILL don't know what possessed me to get involved!
Thanks for helping us noobs, R.G.!
nice, kep...
;)
ya got involved because the ...ummmm...moon was right?
yah, that's it.
used mine live at a huge shindig saturday ....last thing in line before my amp. it totally kicked ass, and made people wonder when the freakin' aliens had landed.
:)
me and dino got the vocalizer running...check that thread when ya can...no pII, but seriously cool pedal! ;)
In case there are people thinking about doing toner transfers of the Ludwig:
You may want to give it a day or so. In working with Keppy, I re-did the layouts so that they fit a 1590D box, integrating more than half of the wiring onto a board with all the controls, and a better-fitting and easier to etch and drill filter board. I'll have it up soon.
nice, rg, can't wait to see it. i'm gonna have to have someone make me a few boards. ;)
Ditto for me on the boards. If someone can crack 2 off for me, when the final version is settled upon, I would be happy to purchase them. Just PM me on the price please.
I mean, I'm a real vero freak (I LOOOOOOOVVVVVVEEEEEE vero, it's like Sudoku for me!), but I'm 47 years old, and I don't think I'll live long enough to figure out a vero for this sucker, let alone one that fits into a 1590D!
Thanks guys!
Quote from: digi2t on August 18, 2011, 12:48:56 AM
Ditto for me on the boards. If someone can crack 2 off for me, when the final version is settled upon, I would be happy to purchase them. Just PM me on the price please.
Same here. I would be interested in 4 boards.
It's worth noting at this point that the first layout is better for short-run commercial production, because it's optimized for being small and cheap to get printed. The second version is better for toner transfer methods because it integrates more of the wiring onto the PCBs and is easier to wire up, but more than twice as big and hence at least twice as expensive per board for commercial production in any quantity.
The circuits are the same, except that I've made a couple of changes to the circuit (oops - "mods" sounds more like "vintage, but even kewler!" while "changes to the circuit" is equal to desecrating holy ground :icon_lol:) to make it function with available switches and other parts. The changes can be patched around on the existing board set by selective population to give the original circuit.
The simple solution for commercial board would cost $50 - $150 per board set for the bigger ones in units quantities. I did those larger ones knowing that they'd be primarily useful for toner transfer because of the size, and did line width and spacing to make toner transfer easier. The commercially made prices don't get reasonable until you get to quantities of 100 or more.
The raw board stock needed for the toner for the larger set will be at least 6" x 7". There are about 750 holes in either version.
From long experience, I know that I have to say this: just to make sure it's understood, permission is given under copyright law for a limited number of copies to be made for personal use and not for sale. I regularly register copyright of all the contents of geofex. That means that the contents of geofex qualify for automatic damages under the DMCA. If any reader wants to make one or a few for themselves, fine. If you want to make and sell them, I'll listen to licensing offers. I don't expect any of those, as this thing is so big and complicated that it's out on the edge of what one would do. I understand fully why Ludwig didn't get any further into musical electronics with this as their first attempt. :icon_biggrin:
ummm...i understand that you need to protect yourself and your intelectual property, but i thought the whole idea was to make this free for the masses to do what they want with it,
so....i don't get why you're copyrighting the boards? or am i missing something?
i thought you didn't want to get involved in this other than for fun, and now we're talking liscensing? not bitching, r.g., just confused...as it seems that me and dino and keppy did a lot of work on this too, and it most likely never would have happened without our direct input and labor.
not to be a buzzkill, but it seems to me the whole point was to make this information available to anyone, and quite frankly, i don't see a problem with selling a few to finance the building expenses involved...it's not gonna be a cheap or easy build.
not trying to get crazy, but i've had a couple people ask me about building them one, i personally don't wanna get commercial and be crankin' 'em out by any means, but then i don't wanna get sued either if i do make a few to sell commercially.
so...i'm confused. i understand you protecting your rights on this...and i believe by doing so, you're preventing others from using our intelectual properties without our blessings..
but...does this mean if i build steve miller one like he asked, i'm gonna get in trouble? ;)
cuz life is too short, and i'm way too poor for legal hassles and expense!! ;)
my main interest is having one i don't mind having beaten on on the road (a clone) but i'd also like to get my ancient tele back, too...which requires building yet another one... yikes...
or is this only the "new improved" smaller "mod" board you're talking about? sorry to ask all these dumb newb questions, and sorry especially if i seem off my feed, just trying to gain and glean a little understanding my friend. ;)
namaste
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 18, 2011, 10:37:34 AM
ummm...i understand that you need to protect yourself and your intelectual property, but i thought the whole idea was to make this free for the masses to do what they want with it, so....i don't get why you're copyrighting the boards? or am i missing something?
No, you have it right. I explicitly allow anyone to make the boards for themselves - and under the "limited" thing, for friends. What I'm trying to limit is someone saying "OK, these guys did all the work for me, I'll open up my new reissue Ludwig Phase II clone shop now. Kewl." I've been around enough to know that this *will* happen unless it's stopped in some way. If you notice, the average time between some new member saying "I've never built anything, don't know how to solder or read schematics" and then starting to refer to themselves in the first person plural in announcing their new business is about two weeks. :icon_eek:
It is free for the masses. Just not free for commercial exploitation.
Quotei thought you didn't want to get involved in this other than for fun, and now we're talking liscensing? not bitching, r.g., just confused...as it seems that me and dino and keppy did a lot of work on this too, and it most likely never would have happened without our direct input and labor.
Yes, you did. And the word "licensing" has a whole lot hidden behind it. Notice that I didn't say that any proposal would be accepted. Or who would be involved in the terms of any such licensing - such as perhaps you, Dino, Keppy, etc.
Quotenot to be a buzzkill, but it seems to me the whole point was to make this information available to anyone, and quite frankly, i don't see a problem with selling a few to finance the building expenses involved...it's not gonna be a cheap or easy build.
Neither do I. Especially for you. And especially if you, Dino, or Keppy had an interest in that. I don't.
Quotenot trying to get crazy, but i've had a couple people ask me about building them one, i personally don't wanna get commercial and be crankin' 'em out by any means, but then i don't wanna get sued either if i do make a few to sell commercially.
Trust me. You wouldn't get sued by me. That's not the issue. I don't have in mind enabling some lurker to go set up his business, though.
Quoteso...i'm confused. i understand you protecting your rights on this...and i believe by doing so, you're preventing others from using our intelectual properties without our blessings..
That is correct.
Quotebut...does this mean if i build steve miller one like he asked, i'm gonna get in trouble? ;)
cuz life is too short, and i'm way too poor for legal hassles and expense!! ;)
No. Licensing terms to you are different from terms to others... :icon_biggrin:
No, those are relevant questions. From sad experience, I know if I do not actively limit what any reader on the internet can do, there will be little Ludwig Clone shops springing up. That's different from the masses that want to build themselves one, and different from any private arrangements the people who did the work may make on this. You're in no danger of being sued, nor is any DIYer who wants to build themself one or a "limited number".
I'm kool with R.G.. Like he says, free for the masses is fine, as long as the masses are doing it for their personal use. It's the lurker, who 2 weeks later has got "all you can eat" PCB's for sale on EBay, that we should nip in the bud. Yes, we did do a lot of work, some more than others, but work nonetheless. It would really piss me off to see copies of our work show up somewhere in mass production, and not see some fruit for our labors. We should be able to control things in that respect. Like the fact that I wouldn't mind if a large batch of boards were made by Aron, to sell in his store to help him out with the site. But, if next week "someyoungguy" sets up shop, and starts selling boards cop'ed from our work, then I say nuke the sucker.
I'm with R.G. on this one. Protect the little guy, screw Big PCB.
So I guess I'll have to rephasre my previous question then; Can anyone be so kind as to make me 2 PCB's for my own personal use? I'm just not equiped to do so myself. I would really appreciate it, and would be willing to reimburse that person for their time, materials, and shipping. Which is only fair, of course. :icon_smile:
thanks for the explanation and the understanding rg...i am with ya 100000000000000000000000000000000%!!!!!!!!!
i just didn't understand, i'm a third - rate mostly white blues rock musician from the willimantic river delta, not a businessman. ;)
keep it free is the way to be...i respect your position, and frankly, now that i understand it, honored by it. thank you my friend!
blessings
jimi
Great news guys! I finally got around to fixing the animation rate problem on the second unit. The rate range was reduced to a very small section of the slider, it would go from slow to fast, all within about a 1/2 inch of travel. I figured it either had to be C1, C2, or quite possibly Q2. I was fairly sure it wasn't Q2, because it was flipping after all. I swapped out C1, no impovement. But, C2 was the magic bullet. I guess it was toast, and wasn't charging enough (or at all) to give Q2 full flips throughout the range.
I proudly announce both units in perfect health now! :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
Going to see a local machinist this week, get a price on having some knobs copied. These babies are gonna look almost mint when I'm done.
these look good for handle knobs, dino, i think...not perfect, but i think they may work.
great news, props on getting it up and running!! now ya can psychedelic out in stereo!
;)
http://www.westfloridacomponents.com/HW189PE04/Black+Plastic+Round+Clamping+Industrial+Knob.html
(http://www.westfloridacomponents.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/HW189.jpg)
Congrats, Dino!
Hey, Guys - I'm posting this in this thread, although it should be posted in the other pedal resurrection thread, which has gone buy the wayside now that the clone is alive.
I took off one of my "mushrooms" off the stomp switches, measured it up with calipers and gave this info to our machine shop guy. I have the ones on the Animation, Fuzz and Stereo, but not the Bypass. He brought the piece to me and although it looked perfect, it didn't fit on the bypass switch. It was at this point that I noticed that the bypass switch is different from the other three. Although they're all DPDT, the bypass switch isn't as tall from chassis to the tip and the diameter of the top button of the switch is larger.
Somebody who has a unit with all four "caps", is the bypass switch cap taller? Could somebody give me the dimensions? I had one of our mechanical guys draw me up the mushroom cap in about five minutes, sans dimensioning. I will add that info which I already have for the three switches. If somebody could give me the dimensions of the bypass cap mushroom I can integrate into the drawing for anybody to recreate these parts. They were DEFINITELY made in the Ludwig shop!
Quote from: Mr Bill on September 02, 2011, 11:29:49 AM
Hey, Guys - I'm posting this in this thread, although it should be posted in the other pedal resurrection thread, which has gone buy the wayside now that the clone is alive.
I took off one of my "mushrooms" off the stomp switches, measured it up with calipers and gave this info to our machine shop guy. I have the ones on the Animation, Fuzz and Stereo, but not the Bypass. He brought the piece to me and although it looked perfect, it didn't fit on the bypass switch. It was at this point that I noticed that the bypass switch is different from the other three. Although they're all DPDT, the bypass switch isn't as tall from chassis to the tip and the diameter of the top button of the switch is larger.
Somebody who has a unit with all four "caps", is the bypass switch cap taller? Could somebody give me the dimensions? I had one of our mechanical guys draw me up the mushroom cap in about five minutes, sans dimensioning. I will add that info which I already have for the three switches. If somebody could give me the dimensions of the bypass cap mushroom I can integrate into the drawing for anybody to recreate these parts. They were DEFINITELY made in the Ludwig shop!
Could this just be a case of someone modding that particular switch before the unit was in your possesion?
If the switch is the same as the others (i.e. DPDT latching, etc.) I doubt the original manufacturer would have sourced a SEPERATE switch just for that one position. I am wondering if the "original" switch had broken long ago and someone just replaced it with what was on-hand.
Thus, the reason it is missing the cap ;)
Just shooting from the hip..... ;D
interesting bill...as it always seems that it's the bypass switch that seems to break, maybe it is a different switch!
look forward to getting the dimensions so i can ask my friend gary to make some for me, too!!
here's the thing, gov't lackey...
them m*%*% f*^%&&'s were impossible to get replacements for back then. that's why there were no true bypass pedals then, the dpdt stompswitch wasn't available til pretty much the net came along.
Weird... checked both my units, and all the button caps are identical. My bypass switches are the same as well.
Sounds like your bypass switch got swapped out, hence the missing cap.
Ironic that you bring this up, just dropped samples off at a machine shop 2 days ago, along with a side knob, and the pull lock knob for the fall plate.
3 switch caps, 1 side knob, 1 lock knob, and 1 handle stiffener bar = 90$. At least they'll look authentic. :icon_mrgreen:
Small world.
Sorry Mr. Bill, looks like you are a victim of the "old school" DIY'er :icon_eek:
Ohhhhhhhhh Noooooooooooooooo ;D
(Crude clay Mr. Bill reference)
Actually, govmnt lacky, I found another picture on the internet with no caps on it and it was exactly the same as mine. My unit came directly from Ludwig to the infamous House of Guitars in Irodequoit, NY, new, and was acquired by a HOG employee/guitar teacher who then sold it to my brother, from which I go it from. My brother bought in late 71/early 72 from him, I acquired it in 1973. The switches are stock and I've noticed another picture on the net that showed this same config, as all the mushrooms were missing. Ludwig probably changed these on the fly, although I doubt it was due to customer feedback, based on the short run... It's also possible that they left that cap off on some production runs, although it would seem unlikely.
Well, anyhow -One of our process detail guys made a quick sketch of my "mushroom" drawing and I will add dimensions with pen in hand to the drawing. Any mechanical engineers, feel free to "clean it up." I will post it next week , when I get back to work. I'll scan it and send it, any preferences, jpg, bmp, or pdf?
Here's a silly question, when I scan the "mushroom" drawing I assume I will be leaving a hyperlink to the drawing? Where would I put the drawing for general consumption? Or is it simply one of the abbove buttons?
hi bill, the easiest way is too upload it to photobucket or something, then link it with the third button in the bottom row...just stick the hyperlink between the img tags.
the ludwigs didn't ship without the shrooms...it was part of the pedal. the ones ya see without them have had the switches replaced, or the shrooms were lost. they are only held on with a little allen screw, and often fell off...sometimes making folks think they'd broken the switch, which in fact still worked.
other times, the whole switch body would fall apart internally, and the whole thing would fall apart. but all of 'em had the shrooms originally.
;)
Just a note: I think the layout is final enough, and I'm putting the documentation together for the full-gallon ludwig clone boards, with BOM, special mounting instructions, tuning instructions, etc.
I think everyone who does a toner version will want the bigger version which minimizes wiring down to only :icon_eek: about two dozen wires, so that's what I'm going to post when I get the typing done.
righteous, rg...thanks so much for all you've done!!
i got your pm...will respond as soon as i know what to say, or what i wanna do....too much going on right now to contemplate much, thanks for the understanding!! ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on September 03, 2011, 12:35:10 PM
righteous, rg...thanks so much for all you've done!!
i got your pm...will respond as soon as i know what to say, or what i wanna do....too much going on right now to contemplate much, thanks for the understanding!! ;)
No biggie, no hurry.
Talk to Dino.
I'll have to talk to my brother and have him ask the original owner about the stomp switch. Being that they are a large music store, replacing the switch would have been easy, if the original succumbed to infancy failure. This was a YOUNG pedal at the time....
It just occurred to me that the original owner may be on Facebook... Duh!! I can ask him directly!
Success! Just sent an email to the original owner of my pedal and asked, even if it seemed trivial to him, ANY info, to send the timeline info on when he owned it. I also mentioned about the bypass switch ....man, the internet ROCKS!!!
Is anyone getting some boards made?
I'd love to have a properly manufactured board with solder mask and legend.
Andy
Just got a price for a small manufacturing run.
Gets cheaper the more you have (obviously).
For a run of 50 boards 7" x 5.9" (yes, I know that's both boards together) comes to about £285 sterling.
Spec:
PCB Online Quote
1. Board layer:[1]
2. Quantity:[50]
3. Length in mm: [178]
4. Width in mm: [145]
5. Base material:[FR4 Tg 130 (standard)]
6. Thickness:[1.6mm]
7. Copper weight:[1oz]
8. Solder mask:[both top & bottom]
9. Silk screen:[top only]
10. Surface:[HASL (lead free)]
11. Country:[UK]
12. Repeat order[No]
13. Laser stencil[No]
That's approx £5.70 each (approx $9.12)
What do you guys think?
Andy
Talk to Jimi, Dino, and Keppy. Their permission is needed for any commercial or group purchases.
R.G.
Strictly non commercial.....
I'll talk to the guys about a group buy (if they're interested).
TBH I'm happy to just order a couple of boards for myself.
Would one of the guys have gerber files for this?
Quote from: UKToecutter on October 09, 2011, 02:54:02 PM
Strictly non commercial.....
I'll talk to the guys about a group buy (if they're interested).
TBH I'm happy to just order a couple of boards for myself.
Would one of the guys have gerber files for this?
As I said, talk to Jimi, Dino, and Keppy. For their (huge) contributions to getting this thing running, I'm letting them call group buys or any commercial production on boards. The copyright on the boards remains with me. It's licensed for small number (1, 2, 3...) reproduction for individuals. I retain all other licensing. Yes, I have gerber files.
I'm doing it this way because of the history of unscrupulous people simply copying and selling my work in the past.
You are right, getting quantity of copies makes the per-unit price go down. Really, getting over 100 pieces is the key to getting decent PCB prices.
R.G.
Yep, left a PM for Dino.
Totally understand your remark about the great unwashed copying and selling your work.
I'm happy to pass the fabricators details to one of the project leads if they wish to use them, and purchase the boards from one of those guys.
I priced up 100 boards. Came out at £4.67 (approx $7.42) for the pair.
TBH, I don't see 100 people willing to tackle something as complex as this, but it certainly brings the price down.
Thanks for the reply.
Regards
Andy
Got your PM Andy.
Forwarded my reply to R.G and Jimi. DOAH!! forgot the fourth Musketeer, Keppy. I'll forward it to him as well.
Keep us posted.
Dino
Sidebar; I'm presently going over both my units, playing with the trimmers, listening to results, and recording voltages. My contact to the Ludwig family came up empty insofar as technical documents from the factory. So, I'm trying to amass as much data as I can, and compile it into a fairly simple set up procedure, so one can adjust the trimmer voltages, and get the unit sounding like (or close to) an original. The only difficult part is splitting the differences between the units since both were tampered with, but I should have some solid numbers for decent performance. Once I have everything down, I'll try posting a video, going through the settings, so you can listen to the sound.
:icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
see your pm's guys.
I've written this up on the other thread as well.
Looking at the original Ludwig diagram of the console board, R32 on the console board should have been a trimmer, or maybe even a control pot. I was studying the fuzz side of the circuit, and this resistor, sitting opposite a diode, caught my fancy. "I wonder what would happen if I play with the resistance value here?", I wondered. So, I wired up a B1M pot, and swapped it into R32's place. It has the effect of determining the choppiness of the signal when the unit is in Fuzz/Percussive mode. With a pot in it's place, it act like the "Smooth" pot on the Tremulus Lune. At the 0 end, you here the percussive ticking, but the signal is not chopped. As you dial up the resistance, the signal gets more and more chopped, like a square wave tremolo. R32 is a 470K resistor, so it's basically a happy medium of both ends. Would have made a nice "Smooth" control on the unit. And Hey! what's one more trimmer?
Back to my lab... mmmuuuaaaaaaaaaahhhhaaahhhhahhhhaaaaaa :icon_twisted:
dude, i think i may try that!
i know...vintage, schmintage, if i cared about looks i'd have married a supermodel. as if. ;)
I don't know if you read the other thread, but I did a complete cap change out on one unt. Wrote about it over there. The results are worth while.
i'll look, i think i saw that you said you did that...things have been nuts lately, so i'm a little out of touch.
What a fantastic project!! I´d love to build one of these but have never tried toner transfer before. I imagine this might not be the best project to do my first transfer (I see debugging hell in that direction :D) So my question is does anyone have a pcb for sale?
well, at this point, keppy's is a working build, but slightly different from the prototype that's been worked up.
the prototype board will be available soon, so keep your eyes peeled. i believe uktoecutter has a batch being made. folks are just a little leary i guess...the first of these boards to be built will be the actual prototype!
again, keppy verified it can be done...now we need to verify the project itself.
I asked a Swedish pcb maker for a price today but Im afraid it will cost an arm and a leg for a oneoff.
Looking forward to this build. It seems very well planned and documented! YouTube sounds of the first built clone were very nice also:-)
I've sent uktoecutter a pm. If anyone is planning a batch I'm very interested!
there's a batch being planned, i believe dino will be distributing them. stay tuned.
We are having a small quantity of PCB's done. First sets are claimed by those who worked/contributed to the project, and the balance will be sold on a first come, first serve, basis. I can't give a lead time, since they are being done at "non-rush" speed to save on expense. All I can say is to keep checking the "For Sale - Wanted" section of the forum in a few weeks for an announcement. It will be a very limited quantity (I'm estimating 10 set, more or less), so they might go pretty quickly.
There is no profit being made on these boards, but I will be adding a surcharge (reasonable amount TBD) to the final cost. This surcharge will be a donation to support the forum. After all, this is the place where this project happened, and the contributers will always be available here to support any troubleshooting questions.
I'll be responsible for distributing/shipping the boards, but since the exact number being claimed by the project contributers will only be known when they become available, I am NOT taking any advance orders. Please don't PM me asking for "set asides".
Cheers,
Dino
Ok, I´ll keep my eyes open:-) I just have to build this one! The swedish pcb maker got back to me and they wanted 140$ without drilling for a oneoff. I want this bad but that was a bit steep.
ummmm....
anyone ever heard of a ludwig phase ONE?
supposed to go see a "ludwig guitar pedal" but "in a box, like a stompbox"...
anybody ever heard of something like this?
There is a write up at Harmony Central about a "Mini Phase II", here's the link; http://www.harmonycentral.com/products/101503 (http://www.harmonycentral.com/products/101503)
It's also mentioned here; http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?1090447-Rolling-Stones-equipment-round-1970 (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?1090447-Rolling-Stones-equipment-round-1970)
But... other than hearsay, this seems to be a proverbial "bucket 'o' steam". Never seen even a picture of one. Who's got one? Yetti? :icon_mrgreen:
as soon as i can get a chance, i'm massatooshitz bound bro, to see if the yeti is real.
dicking around with the ludwig earlier
http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=172147#
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/msg/3004630602.html
Quote from: petey twofinger on May 27, 2012, 08:11:56 PM
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/msg/3004630602.html
Both these units are on Ebay (same seller, same pics).
I'm sorry, but this guy is a schiester. He says that he's had the working one "checked out by a tech", cleaned up, and has "no issues". Well, if his tech is so good, why doesn't he just fix the other one. I made a couple of offers on the busted one, some back and forthing, and then I cornered him on this point. He never answered me back. Pure snake-oil. A pox on him.
And yes, I did sell one of my units about 2 months ago. It also went with my personal guarantee, phone number, address, and unit support for as long as the buyer owns it. The buyer also had it for 3 weeks before I could collect my money. It went to a righteous dude down in Texas, for 3400$. We emailed at length, before and after the sale, and I know that this guy will cherish it for a good long time. I'm glad he's got it. He's also got his name on the Synthi Hi-Fli reissue waiting list, and he's told me that he would be willing to send me the unit once he gets it, so I could try it, and trace it. So, it goes like this in my book....
Ludwig Phase II, in excellent working condition and personal guarantee - 3400$
Walking the straight and narrow, and meeting some fantastic folks along the way - Priceless!
Update on my clone; The boards are fully populated, and I'm wiring right now. The case needs to be drilled, and the treadle is ready. Should be boxed within a week or two. Stay tuned.