DIYstompboxes.com

DIY Stompboxes => Building your own stompbox => Topic started by: digi2t on June 15, 2011, 01:05:28 AM

Title: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on June 15, 2011, 01:05:28 AM
Hi all,

I've given the Colorsound Vocalizer, vero version, a shot here. If someone would like to look over this initial offering. I know I have a row too much on top. Disregard;

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/ColorsoundVocalizer.jpg)

Here is the diagram;

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Colorsound20Vocalizer20schematic20-eget.jpg)

And, the BOM;

C1 10 uF 1 
C10 220 nF 1 
C11 680 nF 1 
C12 680 nF 1 
C13 100 nF 1 
C14 100 nF 1 
C15 2.2 uF 1 
C2 100 uF 1 
C3 2.2 uF 1 
C4 2.2 uF 1 
C5 100 nF 1 
C6 100 nF 1 
C7 4.7 nF 1 
C8 4.7 nF 1 
C9 220 nF 1 
D1 1N750A 1 
D2 1N4148 1 
D3 1N4148 1 
D4 1N4148 1 
D5 1N4148 1 
D6 1N4148 1 
IC1 CA3080E 1 
IC2 RC4136N 1 
Q1 PNP GERM. 1 
R1 3.9 K 1 
R10 100 K 1 
R11 330 K 1 
R12 123 K 1 
R13 120 K 1 
R14 2.7 M 1 
R15 2.7 M 1 
R16 47 K 1 
R17 1.2 K 1 
R18 120 K 1 
R19 4.7 K 1 
R2 1 K 1 
R20 2.2 K 1 
R21 2.7 K 1 
R22 330 ? 1 
R3 3 K 1 
R4 1 K 1 
R5 2.2 K 1 
R6 2.2 K 1 
R7 27 K 1 
R8 47 K 1 
R9 1 M 1 

Thanks all,
Dino

Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on June 15, 2011, 02:53:44 PM
great work bro!!

i'll look it over when i get home...did you actually build this already, or is this a proposed vero layout?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on June 15, 2011, 05:58:33 PM
Haven't built it yet, this is the first vero layout, but I already noticed some errors. Mislabeled resistor, and the yellow wire is missing. I'll make the corrections tonight, and update it.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on June 15, 2011, 08:48:58 PM
cool....i'll wait, then when it's ready i'm a gonna go buy all the parts so i can verify it for ya! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on June 15, 2011, 10:07:00 PM
Here you go. I've double, and triple checked it to the diagram. Disregard the BOM above, this layout includes the proper BOM. You'll have to follow the diagram vis-a-vis the layout to identify the resistors and caps. For some reason, the labels didn't show this time. No biggie, considering how compact this layout is. I have a second hand Cry Baby on the way for this project. I always corner mount my boards with stand-offs, so the 2 bold black corner holes are for the screws. I always clean off a 3 x 3 area of copper on the corners as well, the hole being in the middle. This avoids any shorting issues if you're using metal standoffs.

Another note, pay attention to some of the resistors, it's a bit dicey to tell a "2" from a "7" on the drawing. My advice is to zoom the drawing where necessary. Or, PM me if you're not sure. I'll try and sort out the DIY Creator snafu in the meantime.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/ColorsoundVocalizerCOMPLETE.jpg)

Again, not verified, but it follows the diagram. Let me know if you get done before me.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: R.G. on June 15, 2011, 11:01:05 PM
Hmmm...
Technology of the Colorsound Vocalizer
Input signal to sections A and B of opamp. Input impedance 120K paralleled with 100K. Input noninverting to fuzz opamp 1-2-3, inverting to clean opamp 4-5-6, with gain of 3.3 to noninverting/clean. Gain of 1+1M/27K on fuzz, clipped by diodes. Clean and fuzz blended/selected by cross-signal blend pot. Blended signal to both formant filters in parallel; Section 8-9-10 being F2, section 12-13-14 being F1. Filter frequency set by dual 22K pot. Filters are resistor-to-ground multiple feedback bandpass types. See The Technology of Wah Pedals, http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/wahpedl/wahped.htm (http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/wahpedl/wahped.htm) and "Human Voices and the Wah Pedal" http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/wahpedl/voicewah.htm (http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/wahpedl/voicewah.htm). F2 rises monotonically with pot position. F1 uses the same trick as the EH "talking wah" of tying both ends of a pot together to get a resistance that rises, then falls. The resistance range was not enough, so this resistance is used to control the 3080 OTA set up as a current controlled resistor. PNP transistor converts pot position to variable current into the OTA's bias pin. Two filter outputs added in parallel in a resistive adder for the output.

Simple. Cheap.

Hitting particular formants will be random-ish with part variation, but should be interesting. Can be tuned for better. Q changes with frequency, probably not too badly.
Much like the EH talking way or a couple of the wah-antiwah setups noted other places.  Likely to lose some bass response with low notes because F1 is a bandpass, not a lowpass filter.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on June 16, 2011, 12:15:40 AM
hmmmm, does it follow the standard convention of r1 and on going from left to right? i'se a mite bit confused, here, dino!! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on June 16, 2011, 09:32:25 AM
Jimi, my sincerest apologies. Really. I forgot about your vision dilemma. Give me some time, I'll fill in the labels manually. In the long run, it will be easier for everyone. I was going to just follow the diagram, and match the layout, at the same time. I'll just fill it in, and it will be done. Still haven't figured out why the resistor labels only appear when the resistor is shown stretched out. All my other layouts, the label would appear beside the resistor when standing up.

Sorry bro. I'm on it.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on June 16, 2011, 10:20:08 AM
oh dude, no worries....i really appreciate you going the extra yard for me. this looks like it's gonna be an extremely cool build!!

your version of diy layout creator seems a lot different from mine...is yours one of the later versions?

thanks!!! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on June 16, 2011, 11:55:06 AM
I'm using the v.3 beta. It seems to be a lot smoother than the v.2. I don't know what happened to the resistor labels though, I've done 3 or 4 veros with that one, but this is the first time that didn't show up. Updated version should be here by the weekend.

Cheers,
Dino
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on June 16, 2011, 11:57:52 AM
weird!! lol...

thanks tho bro!! looks like it will be a fun build!  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on June 16, 2011, 12:23:06 PM
Yup, hopefully our postal strike will be over soon  :icon_frown: . All my parts are hung up right now.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on June 16, 2011, 01:27:33 PM
is the bom above right? just curious, so i can try and source the parts out locally...thanks dino!!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on June 16, 2011, 05:42:54 PM
Use the BOM that is on the bottom of the layout. That one is correct. Once I update the resistor labels, it will be complete.

 :icon_twisted:.... my son wanted me to put this here   :icon_razz:

and now he's denying it!!!! :icon_surprised:

P.S., I had a good suggestion concerning the 2.7M resistors from another fellow (Erik. He says that changing the resistance here could change the vowel sounds. Maybe a good spot for some pots here instead. Have to look into that.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: R.G. on June 16, 2011, 09:45:19 PM
P.S., I had a good suggestion concerning the 2.7M resistors from another fellow (Erik. He says that changing the resistance here could change the vowel sounds. Maybe a good spot for some pots here instead. Have to look into that.
Vowel sounds happen when the two filter frequencies hit inside the regions noted for F1 and F2 in the chart here: http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/sing-wah/sing-wah.htm (http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/sing-wah/sing-wah.htm). When the resonances hit those particular regions, your brain goes "VOWEL!".  If they're outside the regions, your brain hears a unique sound, but does not trigger recognition as a vowel.

The stuff I'm doing with the IC formant filters is primarily to shape the filter frequencies so that they hit ONLY vowel sounds, not outside.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on June 16, 2011, 10:54:46 PM
OK Jimi, I updated the layout above, the resistor names now appear. Had to do it manually, thank God this isn't the Phase II  :P ;D

Let me know if you get it off the ground before me.

Quote
Vowel sounds happen when the two filter frequencies hit inside the regions noted for F1 and F2 in the chart here: http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/sing-wah/sing-wah.htm. When the resonances hit those particular regions, your brain goes "VOWEL!".  If they're outside the regions, your brain hears a unique sound, but does not trigger recognition as a vowel.

The stuff I'm doing with the IC formant filters is primarily to shape the filter frequencies so that they hit ONLY vowel sounds, not outside.

R.G.... you just blow my mind man. It explains the F1, F2 deal in the Phase II (that one had me wondering) very clearly. Again, we need more guys like you in schools. Every time I read any of your stuff, I go to bed less stupid at night. Thanks dude!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on June 17, 2011, 09:24:51 PM
Bought the dual gang pot here;

http://www.audiomaintenance.com/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.audiomaintenance.com%2Facatalog%2Faml_catalog.html&WD=plastic&PN=potentiometers_carbon_20mm_diameter_dual_gang.html%23a26 (http://www.audiomaintenance.com/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.audiomaintenance.com%2Facatalog%2Faml_catalog.html&WD=plastic&PN=potentiometers_carbon_20mm_diameter_dual_gang.html%23a26)

more info; http://www.audiomaintenance.com/acatalog/om-01-046_extended_info.html (http://www.audiomaintenance.com/acatalog/om-01-046_extended_info.html)

It's got the right type of shaft for the Dunlop wah gears. They're a bit pricey, but it's the closest match I could find not to have to do modifications for the spur and pinion. Went all out, and bought 3 for good measure. I should be good for a while  :icon_rolleyes:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on June 17, 2011, 10:17:36 PM
any idea where the hell i can find an empty crybaby? don't really wanna shell out 50 bucks to smallbear...i'm kicking myself cuz i threw away two of 'em when i moved last year, never thought i'd have any use for 'em!!

;)

dino...thanks for updating the layout..
i'll be getting the parts together soon hopefully, gotta gig next weekend that should pay for it all...too broke atm!!
;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on June 18, 2011, 08:57:33 AM
Yeah, I hear ya man! I looked at Small Bear as well, but I ended up finding a Dunlop Q wah for 60 bux on eBay. I figured that way, the pot hole for the fuzz is already there, and I can harvest whats inside the Dunlop. It sucks, but it is what it is. At this rate, it looks like the Vocalizer, and the Phase II are shaping up to become my most expensive builds ever!

No... check that. I momentarily forgot about the 1200 the original PII cost me. :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:

I guess the need for certain things is directly proportional to the amount of overtime one is prepared to do. :icon_wink:

Peace bro.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on June 18, 2011, 09:21:42 AM
ha!

well, i'm searching for another baby out there...i can get chinese clones pretty cheap, but at this point, i'm thinking pretty much any kind of volume or wah pedal will work.

i think the pII was worth it!

lol

i hear ya tho, it's gonna be expensive to build both, but i think worth it in the long run!! ;)

rock on, my brother.
 :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on June 18, 2011, 09:59:48 AM
I was looking at Morley's at first (I like the way they look  :icon_cool:), but then I discovered that they're optical. That would mean a major mod of the casing and treadle to mount the pot. I decided to go the way of the K.I.S.S. road, and got a Dunlop pedal instead. Finding the pots was a bonus.

When I build the PII clone, it'll probably be a Dunlop pedal, and a Hammond box, joined together. Or, everything sqeezed into a Morley casing. The third option is rack mounting, with just the treadle, and footswitches on the floor via MIDI. Either way, it's going to be tighter than a frog's ass... and that's water-tight!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on June 18, 2011, 10:07:51 AM
i'm just waiting to see what you guys come up with, and going from there!
i like the idea of midi control, but that seems like it'll be a major pia!!

but man...it'd be hip to assign a bunch of different controllers to it.. i mean, say ya used a cheap behringer fcb1010...

volume, and formant/wah pedals, and a plethora of controllers to use!! that'd be sweet!!!

or...make it so ya can call up presets?!?!?!?!?

oh man...don't get me started!!!!  :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on June 18, 2011, 10:22:54 AM
Ummm... hate to get you wound up bro, but check out;

http://highlyliquid.com/midi-decoders/mpa/ (http://highlyliquid.com/midi-decoders/mpa/)

and

http://highlyliquid.com/midi-decoders/msa-r/ (http://highlyliquid.com/midi-decoders/msa-r/)

I know, I know.... real pricey. But, they work amazingly well. I've already used the MSA-R relay unit. I made my first MIDI loop switcher with it. Had it rack mounted, with an old X-15 footcontroller to control it. I'm not using them anymore, so I've got that for the switching. If I get the MPA, then I'm racking the Vocalizer and the PII.

BTW, I'm kinda, sorta in your neck o' the woods next weekend. My son's got a baseball camp near Pittsfield Mass., up in the Berkshires. 3 glorious day of baseball, shopping, food, beer, and baseball.
Gonna be good to tune out for a few days!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: R.G. on June 18, 2011, 10:55:51 AM
any idea where the hell i can find an empty crybaby? don't really wanna shell out 50 bucks to smallbear...i'm kicking myself cuz i threw away two of 'em when i moved last year, never thought i'd have any use for 'em!!
You're not the only musician that trashed a wah instead of repairing it. This has become much, much harder since the DIY effect movement got off the ground and started flying, but I once made the rounds of the repair shops here in town and got 8 broken wah pedals. Six were free, two cost me $5 each. They were lying in the "dead, never picked up" bin at the repair shop. It's worth a few calls or a minor road trip. Go see the repair man himself, don't dicker with the counter help; explain you're a mad scientist and you want a rocker for controlling your robot or something.  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on June 18, 2011, 12:03:18 PM
that's a great idea , r.g..

they used to be a dime a dozen, but now ya can get a replacement board for 'em on ebay for 30 bux or less.

i'm gonna hit up mick at daddy's junky, and see if he can hook me up with a couple.

also asked on the guitar player forum, and facebook...we'll see what shakes out.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on June 18, 2011, 12:16:07 PM
shoot, dino, my son's in pittsfield mass...well, lenox, actually...i wish i could get up there to see ya, it's about a 90 minute drive.
but i gotta gig saturday in agawam, which is half way there, and sunday's my birthday, so the kids are all coming over. but damn!! i hate to think you're that close and
we can't get together to kill a couple beerskies and make some music...

who knows, maybe we can!!

gonna pm ya my phone number...i mean, who knows, maybe we can get together!! it'd be great to meet you bro.

we could have dueling pII's...i'm gonna use mine at the gig saturday, as a matter of fact!!
;)

i'm drooling over the midi control stuff...but right now, i need to focus on getting my echoplex and princeton outta hock before it's too late.

peace!!

 :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on July 14, 2011, 10:13:53 AM
AWWWW CRAP!!!!

I bought  a 535Q to gut and build this into, BUT NOW I'M IN LOVE WITH IT!!!!

Just picked up a Crybaby real cheap. Here we go again  :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on July 14, 2011, 10:52:41 AM
and so it continues, lol!!!!!!!!!!!!

i gotta revision f crybaby to put this in yesterday...it never ends. i had bought a cheap pyle pro wah to do it, but nooooooooooo.... :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:

now that's gonna be a mouthmeister.


face it kids. we gotta monkey on our backs!!   :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on July 14, 2011, 11:36:21 AM
Quote
now that's gonna be a mouthmeister

I posted the Mouthmeistor vero here; http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92671.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92671.0)

Needs to be verified though.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on July 14, 2011, 11:47:34 AM
sweet bro!! well done!
do ya think it'll squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze into a crybaby shell?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on July 17, 2011, 10:42:16 PM
i ordered the chips and stuff tonite to do this and the mouthmeister, bro...so, shouldn't be too long.

ended up finding a 22k dual on evilbay for about 7 bux shipped...not too bad!! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on July 17, 2011, 10:54:10 PM
Quote
ended up finding a 22k dual on evilbay for about 7 bux shipped...not too bad!!

WOAH BRO!!! Send link please!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on July 17, 2011, 11:15:28 PM
here ya go bro...gotta nice long shaft on it, too!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150610575616&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on July 17, 2011, 11:53:54 PM
ACES!!! I received mine the other day from AML. Very nice, but pricier. But, they've got the flat on the shaft, just like the Dunlop pots for the gear. I think that's what really attracted me to them, less mucking about to fit the gear.

Great find though. Nothing a Dremel can't mod to fit.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Keppy on July 17, 2011, 11:55:21 PM
I just looked up this pedal and found absolutely nothing. The first result when I Googled it was this forum. Is there anyplace I can hear it? Or do I just have to wait for the clone?

here ya go bro...gotta nice long shaft on it, too!!

Must... not... make... stupid joke...  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on July 18, 2011, 12:01:33 AM
 :icon_mrgreen:


i've never heard one either...but i guess that's gonna be part of the fun!! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on July 18, 2011, 12:24:43 AM
From what I've read on the net, it's a variant of the Dipthonizer (sorta), that you can sweep through vowels with.

That's it. Nothing more. Except some pics. Kinda like the Sasquatch. Heard he's got a long shaft as well  :icon_mrgreen: (resistance was futile).

Guess if the last one I saw on the Bay went for 1200$, there must be SOMETHING special about it. And I didn't even see a long shaft in the gut shots, so go figure...
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on July 18, 2011, 07:44:52 AM
that's cuz ya gotta play with it a little to see what it's all about... :icon_mrgreen:

there...now I couldn't resist!!

seems like the mouthmeister and the coloursound may be an interesting combo!!

i re-visited my ugly face again last nite...

if i could only run the sucker on a walwart, it would live on my pedalboard!!

tried adding a 100mf cap to the power jack...no dice.  on a side note, i wrote tim escobedo thanking him for the circuit snippets, and he wrote back!
seemed like a nice guy. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on July 18, 2011, 11:59:35 AM
Quote
i re-visited my ugly face again last nite...

if i could only run the sucker on a walwart, it would live on my pedalboard!!

I've never made a pedal that would take a battery, power supply only. With the mass of pedals I've got, I'd need to buy stock in Union Carbide to stay afloat. Those daisy chain power supplies work great for me, 8 pedals to a ps, except for 1 or 2 + gnd pedals, which run their own.

I'm telling you bro, I get a strange feeling that Mr. Ugly into a Mouthmiestor will equal Ludwig, or damn close to it.

GOD DAMN I HOPE MY GIRLFRIENDS HOUSE SELLS SOON, SO WE CAN BUY A BIGGER PLACE, AND I CAN UNPACK ALL MY GEAR!!!!!

But, I digress. I'm gonna go pop a pill now.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on July 18, 2011, 12:03:26 PM
one pill to get larger, or one to get small?

ya know you're REALLY small when ya can fit inside the breathalyzer tube!!

lol

i got the dual concentric 500k pot today...it even had the knobs, cost me .99c plus shipping!!

i think an ugly face and mouthmeister/vocalizer may get real close.

but...

question...if ya hook a 100mf cap across the power supply to kill noise, right at the ps jack, i mean, which of the three terminals are ya SUPPOSED to use, anyways? on some of my builds, it seems to want it across the positive, some the positive to neg, some from neg to ground...man, am i confused!!

guess i better ask the forum!! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on July 18, 2011, 01:03:57 PM
Maybe this will help bro,

http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/Huminator/index.htm (http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/Huminator/index.htm)

Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on July 18, 2011, 01:25:32 PM
thanks bro, i'll look at it! ;)

edit....
sweet!! looks like i can build it right into the bobtavia, i'll try it bro, thanks!!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 11, 2011, 02:20:58 AM
ok...it's in process...but...

houston, we have a problem....or three.

there's 20 rows x 21 spaces, not 21 rows by 20 spaces. typos happen. ;)

it may be these damn dodgy eyes of mine, but there's a couple spots on the vero that seem a little awkward, or plain don't work...or i'm missing something.

do c9 and 10 and c 11 and 12 mount connected to each other in the middle, or are they supposed to share the holes on row  17, holes 15 and 16, respectively?

sorry bro, i can't tell from the vero...just a little too fuzzy for me. and not alot of room to mount the caps  i got, so i gotta either order some others or hit the part store.

also, i'm having the same probs with the diodes, d2, d3 and d4....

i sincerely hope the stripe is the gray part of the diodes on the layout, or things may be messy!! ;)

do d2 and d3 connect, or do they share hole 15 of row 3?

also, does d3 mount in hole 15 of row 5?

d4 should be rows 6 and 8 holes 15, correct?

sorry for the confusion, bro, i just can't see it well enough to tell.. :icon_redface:

other than those couple problems, it's coming along nicely, most of the board is populated now. ;)

when ya get a chance, holla back, dino!

peace1



Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 11, 2011, 07:48:51 AM
Hola miho,

Quote
there's 20 rows x 21 spaces, not 21 rows by 20 spaces. typos happen.

Hmmm... I've written 20R (rows) x 21H (holes... ummm.... spaces?) on the vero layout  ??? Now, I'm confused. Are we looking at the same vero? I did delete the first version, only the most recent should appear on page 1 of this thread.

Yes, the caps and diodes stated do share holes. The reason I did this was to save space (and jumpers), since 2 ceramic cap, or diode, leads are thin enough to share the same hole (at least on my veroboards). R19, and R21 also share a hole. D2, D3, and D4 all connect between them, in the same holes, next to the cuts. The grey bands are the stripes, they come out grey looking in version 3. Again, the leads on a 1N4148 is pretty thin, so stuffing 2 leads into one hole should be OK. Connects the ends, saves jumpers, and secures the component to the board. If it's too tight to lay them flat, then stand them up a bit.

I had to try and keep everything tight here, since a Crybaby shell isn't that wide.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 11, 2011, 11:02:38 AM
hey bro,

i'm up...was on this thing til 2:30 am..lol..

yah, it's 21 horizontal, 20 vertical on the board in the layout...21 strips, 20 holes...

it all fits.

i've got most of the board populated at this point,  i used all film caps and pretty much metal 1% resistors in here...newbe, cost me more..oops.

so...the 680 and 100nf caps at  c9/10 and c11/12 just plain won't fit.

i don't wanna add another order to mouser today, so gonna hit cables and connectors and get the proper size caps so they'll fit.

i never stuffed two things in a hole in vero before..learn something new every day. i actually connected r19 and r21 ABOVE the board..with the resistors i used, no way to stuff both thru the hole!! ;)

 but anyways, now i'm just a couple parts away from finishing the population...then it's on to the mechanics of putting it all in the crybaby. 

will check in later...so far, this too, is looking like it'll live as soon as eyegor hooks up the juice. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 11, 2011, 12:01:34 PM
Quote
i actually connected r19 and r21 ABOVE the board

That can work as well, as long as the 2 resistors are connected, and also connect to the vero rail to C15 as well. Twist and solder the lead of one onto the other high and tight, clip the excess, and pull the lead of the other into the hole. 6 of one, half dozen of the other  :icon_lol:. That could work with the caps as well I guess. Again, sheer genius bro! I hadn't thought of that one  :icon_idea:

Quote
i never stuffed two things in a hole in vero before
.... thank God you added the word "vero" in that sentence  :icon_wink:. I just figured, as long as 2 components were connecting onto the same rail, if I could save using a hole on a rail of the board, I would try.

I've done it, but on already built boards, as modifications. This is the first time I intentionally drew up a vero with shared holes. Just trying to keep everything tinny-winny.

P.S. I forgot to mention it in my PM, I get my veroboard from here; http://stores.ebay.ca/pixel-print-ltd/Veroboard-Stripboard-/_i.html?_fsub=2135144018&_sid=737387708&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322 (http://stores.ebay.ca/pixel-print-ltd/Veroboard-Stripboard-/_i.html?_fsub=2135144018&_sid=737387708&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322) . I use the epoxyfiber veroboard. Very good quality, and CHEAP!!! 5000 holes (10" x 5") for around 6 bux  :icon_surprised:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 11, 2011, 12:15:48 PM
thanks bro for the links.

i got everything on there except c9&10 and c 11&12...had to sub 5n caps for the 4.7, but that should be close enough...made a 27k out of a 3 and a 24 k i had lieing around, pretty much everything else is 1% components.

let's hope the SCHEMATIC is right!! lol!!! or all will be for naught, other than the learning experience, eh?

;)

i tagged some pics on the book of the board to ya...so you can see.

gotta jet for now, and get parts after taking my bro down to get his motorvehicle liscence.

more later!! ;)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/282590_2141760956491_1620235552_211.jpg)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/284563_2141762996542_1620235552_211.jpg)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 11, 2011, 12:43:30 PM
Hmmm, I see why you're havin' a PITA with the caps. I've never used those types of box caps in my projects, always the ceramic discs. They're cheap, compact, and cheap. Did I mention that they're cheap? And compact? Those box caps are just not flexble enough to design them into my veros.

Besides, smaller board = MORE POTS!! (MORE KNOBS) :icon_twisted:
Case in point, silicon Skyripper;
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/PICT0050.jpg)
Notice how small the ceramics are, compared to that !!HUGE!! 100pF silver mica (between the 2 trannies).

Truth be told, I've done the A-B thing with different caps, but my hearing just isn't fine enough to tell the difference between a ceramic, mylar, silver mica, what have you. If I'm fixing something, I'll try to stay true to what was there, but I always use ceramics for my builds. They've never failed me. Even in the Axis Face, where they specifically ask for a silver mica cap for the tranny, I ordered one, and did the A-B with a ceramic, and I thought the silver mica was a waste of money. Just my 2 bits.

1/4W metal film resistors, and ceramic caps, always works, everytime.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 11, 2011, 04:05:37 PM
hey dino, where the holes are marked for mounting this, do they need to be isolated from ground, or should they ground there? sorry for the confusion...don't wanna blow this thing up. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 11, 2011, 04:19:37 PM
No grounding on the mounting holes, they should absolutely be isolated. I always clean the 3x3 area of all copper, leaving the mounting hole in the middle lots of room for the stand-off. Even if I'm using plastic stand-off's (I also use aluminum from time to time), I always clean off the 3x3 corner. Just good safe practice, to prevent any FUBAR's from happening.

Your UNO chip is in the mail. Just posted it. Hollar when you get it.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 11, 2011, 06:11:13 PM
awesome bro, thanks so much.

NEXT dumb question..

does this need a bipolar 9  v supply (n which case, i have an extra charge pump, thank god) or where it says 9v- is that the 9volt battery's minus?

soon as i hear what's what, it's on to the final stages of the build..

sorry for all the dumb questions, but when i say i'm a newb,, i mean it.

 :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 11, 2011, 06:16:24 PM
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/283994_2142276809387_1620235552_211.jpg)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/281336_2142275369351_1620235552_211.jpg)

almost there, dino...just a few more things, hope to have it running tonite!!  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 11, 2011, 09:12:20 PM
Hey bro,

Lookin' good! Don't need bipolar, just regular 9 volt. The neg is on one side of the board, and pos is on the other. Either battery, or PS.

The pot doesn't look too bad either, probably do the job. At the very worse, dab some 5 minute epoxy in there to lock it in. If it doesn't work out, give me a hollar, and I'll ship you one of the 22K's I've got. They already have the flat machined on the shaft, so the gear should just slip on.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 11, 2011, 09:42:19 PM
so far, so good...the pot fits great, took just a couple seconds with the dremel... i'm wiring the board now so i can mount it, all the pots etc are in the crybaby shell now, let's hope it works when i put the chips and tranny in!! ;)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/267280_2142783742060_1620235552_212.jpg)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 11, 2011, 10:38:04 PM
Man, I'm standing by, with bated breath.

I miss my shop!  :icon_sad:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 11, 2011, 10:40:44 PM
all that's left is the power wiring and installing the tranny and chips.

one stupid question tho, where the hell is ground, the 9v-, right? i feel so stupid, lol...but my brain is shutting down i think...lol
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 11, 2011, 10:46:41 PM
"9v-" = 9 volts negative, aka "ground", or "earth" in Britain.
"9v+" = 9 volts positive, aka "power", "hot", "live", "juice", etc.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 11, 2011, 10:53:06 PM
i know bro, was just goofin on ya...   :icon_mrgreen:

sorry, i'm a douche!

;)

just connected the last wire...

time to plug in the chips and tranny...

pray, bro...i am.

be right back!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 11, 2011, 11:01:38 PM
OMFG!!

You got me, hook, line, and sinker  :icon_eek:

I seriously thought that you were losing it there. Good one. Got me man!  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 11, 2011, 11:28:29 PM
f^<#.

no dice, bro.

it passes signal, but that's about it. the fuzz is ALMOST there..barely. no formants. sounds like a wah stuck in the heel position. it's not doing squat.

could be because i had to sub an nte996 for the ca3080e. beats me.

i have a feeling the schematic is no good. bummer. was really hoping this thing was gonna rock!!

not giving up yet, but have a feeling we're gonna be shat outta luck.

somewhere, something has gotta be wrong...i pulled the transistor, made no difference. even reversed it.

i have a feeling there's a bug somewhere in the schematic unfortunately.

time to start debugging.

this sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 11, 2011, 11:58:22 PM
I'm going to go over the vero again. I managed to find a pdf of trace side layout of the Vocalizer PCB. I'll compare it to that and see what comes out of it.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 11, 2011, 11:58:46 PM
ok, don't freak, it's not a total wash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i got it working...sorta. the board works...so that's hip...

there's a problem with the 22k stacked pot wiring. if i short parts of it together, suddenly i have wah.

pin 3 on the part of the pot closest to the shaft seems to need to be connected to pin 1 of the other half of the pot.

so something is screwy...it works, it passes signal, but it's really mostly just a fuzzwah at this point.

i'm gonna chill for tonite, and attack it again in the morning bro. no worries...we're gonna figure this sucker out!! it passes signal, so that's more than half the battle...and it wahs, so that's even more. i'll hit it with a fresh brain tomorrow, and we'll figure it out! ;)

'
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 12, 2011, 12:10:44 AM
Or maybe I'll just go here and pick up a new one;

(http://files.effectsdatabase.com/brands/pics/colorsound_early70stradeshow_001.jpg)

As soon as I get the vero of the Solasound Time Machine done  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 12, 2011, 12:30:04 AM
rotfflmao...

a tl082 works in this, too...sounds nice stacked even!!

i've got a little formant...it ain't no pII, but it's definitely vocal!!

'm gonna try and splice in a buffer tomorrow bro, i have a feeling that will help it.
it's a little less than unity gain when on...and i gotta figure out how to widen the sweet spot...but i think it's working now...we gotta mess with the 22k pot tomorrow.

off like a prom dress bro...catch ya in the morning!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 12, 2011, 09:12:25 AM
Quote
pin 3 on the part of the pot closest to the shaft seems to need to be connected to pin 1 of the other half of the pot.

Dude, that's marked on the layout. Upper left, purple wire, goes to terminal 1 & 3 of POT 2. Since I always number the pots looking from the backside, POT 1 is the pot closest to you, POT 2 is the one underneath (spindle side). Terminals 1 & 3 connects to the purple wire, or, purple wire to 1 (or 3), and jumper.

There is one thing really bugging me right now, it's the fuzz pot. I'm not sure if one of the terminals needs to be grounded as well. There's something that looks "off" on the schem. Right where the fuzz pot is drawn, there is an arrow drawn right through the wiper symbol. Maybe something, maybe nothing. I'm working on it. What tranny did you use btw?
 
I'm going to retrace the layout this morning, and I'll let you know if there's something stinky.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 12, 2011, 10:46:51 AM
ok, then i have the treadle pot wired backwards then.

the fuzz pot doesn't seem to do much..if it's wired the way you said, i believe that means it should be a variable resistor, right? so no connection, or if there is one, wired to ground.

i'll play with it and see what  i can come up with bro. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 12, 2011, 01:00:22 PM
OK, I've traces the pcb to the schem, and the vero layout to both, and everything rhymes. According to the pcb layout, only the fuzz pot casing is supposed to be grounded. The three terminals are connected to their respective places in the circuit. As per the schematic and pcb, 1 and 3 of the fuzz pot bridge between pins 3 and 4 of the 4136 chip, and the wiper is fed by pins 8 and 14 of the same chip, after passing through some caps and resistors respectively. I re-re traced it on the vero, and everything lines up.

As for the unity, looking at the schem, there is a 330 ohm resistor going to ground, right at the output. Maybe pull this out, and wire in a pot as a variable resistor here, maybe a 5k or 10k to start, and see if increasing your resistance to ground here will bring your volume up.

Maybe swap out the PNP Germ for a Si with more gain as well.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: tiges_ tendres on August 12, 2011, 02:42:59 PM
Never trust those NTE parts.  Is the pin out the same as the CA3080?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 12, 2011, 05:40:32 PM
ok, i'll look at swapping that resistor for a pot bro.

the nte part is fine, the weirdness is that i had the pot wired backwards (the 22k dual gang one) , i've been working all day on this fugging klon(e) i think i just blew up.

gimme  a little bit, dino.

and remember, we're dealing with a fairly old pedal i'd imagine, so it may just be buggy.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 12, 2011, 05:49:29 PM
duh...tranny mp16b ge...so far, hottest one i have hfe 135
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 12, 2011, 06:41:59 PM
SCORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dude, take that 330 ohm resistor off the layout. cuz i'm lazy, and installed it standing up, i cut one of the bare wires in half, figuring i'd graft a gain pot in temporarily.

no need...it now works, and well!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the fuzz didn't work...now it does. it's not real fuzzy, as in the knob doesn't work for balls, but it does fuzz up nice.
basically, it's a real nice little fuzzwah. when the fuzz is cranked,  it sustains really nicely.

i did hook up a pot to that resistor, and a 5k pot works well as a final gain control, but probably not necessary...it's loudest with nothing there at all.

the dual pot hooks up like this...i tried every possible combination...

pot 1
lug 1 nc
lug 2  gray
lug 3 white with jumper to pot 2, terminal 1

pot 2
lug 1 purple, terminal 1 and jumper as above
lug 2 blue (brown, in mine)
lug 3 nc

that's it bro...it works, it's not only verified, it's VERO-FIED!!!

the coloursound vocalizer lives again, thanks to dino tsiptsis!!!!!!!1

well well done brother!! a REALLY nice wah wah!! and not an inductor in sight.

gimme a call later if ya can bro, i'm gonna try and shoot a quick video while gineen's  out.

;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 12, 2011, 07:34:58 PM
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/285046_2144659548954_1620235552_212.jpg)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/262940_2144620787985_1620235552_212.jpg)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/224512_2144619507953_1620235552_212.jpg)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/251434_2144618907938_1620235552_212.jpg)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/251530_2144617907913_1620235552_212.jpg)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 12, 2011, 07:36:51 PM
ok, here's the deal...it's a fuzz wah, more wah than fuzz, but not a "formant" pedal...unless i did something majorly wrong!!

i will try and get some audio/video clips up as soon as i can...thanks dino for the great work bro!!  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Keppy on August 12, 2011, 09:03:11 PM
Nice job, guys!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 12, 2011, 09:45:16 PM
thanks bro!!!!!  :icon_mrgreen:

it's a really cool wah, alot different from what i was expecting. i'm hoping rg can figure out a way to even out the sweep a little, i think that would improve it some.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: soggybag on August 12, 2011, 10:20:47 PM
It's my guess that transistor really doesn't have to be a Ge. Looks like it's there to buffer the current going into the control voltage pin of the OTA. Seems like you might get more predictable results with a silicon part here. I don't think this part has anything to with the audio, it should only be affecting the sweep of one of the filters. Plus you can save that cool metal can for something where it would affect the audio, like a rangemaster or fuzz face.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 12, 2011, 10:23:07 PM
tried a 2n3906, didn't make a lick of difference one way or the other...tho the silicon will probably be more temperature stable.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Keppy on August 12, 2011, 10:38:24 PM
An uneven sweep is probably a problem with your pot taper. For example, one wah pedal I bought to gut for a project had a W taper 100k pot. With that dual-gang, you're probably limited in your choice of tapers. R.G. has used a mod in some versions of the Neovibe to allow for the use of a single-gang pot in place of a dual-gang. That might be what you need. With a single-gang pot, you'd have lots of options to experiment.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 12, 2011, 10:49:23 PM
well, hopefully he'll pop in and figure it out!! the man is a genius!  ;D
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 13, 2011, 12:34:49 AM
YAHOO!!!

I'm super glad it worked out! For all we know the pot tapers could be custom jobs in the originals. I think when I get around to building mine, I may experiment with seperate pots, and see what manually giving different offsets between the two pots yields.

Could you check the voltage just after R6 (looking at the vero layout, anywhere along the top row, to ground)? According to the shem, it's supposed to be 4.7 vdc here. I'm just wondering what you're getting.

That's really weird that it works with the pots wired the way you did  ???. Every gut shot I've seen, has them wired the way I've stated in the vero layout. Even the schem has them wired that way. I'm at a bit of a loss here. I just hope that somethings not c*ckeyed, and we're missing out on something  :icon_confused:. Where the fuzz is concerned, I'm sure that maybe a resistor, or cap, change somewhere might make a boat load of difference (330R resistor, case in point). Or, maybe the fuzz pot might have to change to another value i.e. 5K or 2K even. I think I'm going to retain the "Unverified" moniker for now, until these minor details are ironed out. It would be great if R.G. could chirp in here with his thoughts. Without a doubt, I'm sure we're missing something here  :icon_mrgreen:

On the other hand, I'm really looking forward to a video. I really would like to hear this puppy. I think I've been more anxious with this sucker, than even the P II !

Great job to you bro. Thanks for transforming my paperwork into something tangible. Another hen's tooth soon to be available to the common man.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 13, 2011, 12:54:40 AM
has been an honor bro working with you on this. i am so psyched it worked out!! i gotta gig tomorrow, gonna be a long day, i'm on from 2-10pm with two different bands back to back, but will try and get a video cooking on sunday, or at least some sound clips.

it's a very nice sounding wah, when ya hear it, i think you'll be satisfied...the fuzz is not subtle, really, but perfectly blended with the wah sound. kinda hard to describe, to be honest. it's not like a big muff or fuzzface (speaking of which, i just built the "liberal komrade" fuzz, a pnp version of the dunlop jh1 with mp16b ge trannys...REAL nice!!) but kinda like an overdriven sustain. you'll diggit, i'm sure. and i'm sure rg, if he checks in here (poke!!!) will be able to sort out any niggles.

the pot seems to work best that way...if i connect pins 1 and 3, i lose half the wah, but gain a lot of fuzz. weird. looking at the schematic, it looks like you're right, but it seems to work best the way i described..really weird. i started off by wiring it as you described, but it just wasn't right, so i tried every combo i could think of with roach clips and jumpers, and that seemed to be the best.

the only weird thing, is there's a touch of a "bump" sound thru part of the range of the pot...so it may indeed be something amiss.

gonna use it tomorrow, will let ya know how it goes!!

g'nite bro!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 13, 2011, 01:37:33 AM
Hmmm... possible mods;

R13 (120K to ground) - Maybe a change, or trimmer, to allow more/less input signal.

R17 (1.2K) - In the schem, pot 2 acts as sort of a voltage divider. Maybe a trimmer here to adjust the voltage being delivered to the tranny.

R16 & R20 - These  may impact the fuzz gain, since the fuzz pot, and pot 1 are interconnected here (pot 1 acting as a variable resistor to ground). The fuzz pot wiper either shift between one opamp, or the other. To my noob eyes, I don't think the fuzz pot really works the gain, but rather the texture of the fuzz.

Then again, what do I know. My initials are D.T., not R.G.  :icon_lol:

Goo nite y'all. Good luck tomorrow bro.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 13, 2011, 01:48:28 AM
that's a good way to put it...fuzz texture. that describes it alot better than i could!!

i hear ya, i'm not dt, or rg, i'm jp, and man...i'm amazed every day by the stuff on this forum!!

sweet dreams bro, catch ya tomorrow or sunday..peace!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: soggybag on August 13, 2011, 02:25:23 AM
If you haven't thought of it already, be sure to play with the rotational position of the pot. Since the pedal probably doesn't rotate the pot through it's entire range, you'll be able to adjust it a small amount one way or the other.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 13, 2011, 07:28:35 AM
If you haven't thought of it already, be sure to play with the rotational position of the pot. Since the pedal probably doesn't rotate the pot through it's entire range, you'll be able to adjust it a small amount one way or the other.

Good catch soggs! Just like the Phase II pot. You've got some travel left at either end that you can lean to.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 13, 2011, 10:03:11 AM
believe it oor not, this thing is using pretty much the entire pot's travel..i could turn it down just a little bit if i wanted, but not much. i have it set right now so toe down hard is as full treble as possible, don't really need more bass...it has plenty!!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 13, 2011, 12:09:09 PM
I've been looking at the TL074 chip as well, and I'm thinking that maybe I'll do a second vero to accomodate it, instead of the RC4136. I have no idea what the result will be, but I think that the TL074 is more readily available, and cheaper.

Another mod as well could be to swap out the CA3080 for an LM13600, and create 2 alternate tranny circuits. Then use a DPDT switch, one side for the line coming from point 12 of the RC4136, and the other for the blue wire going to the pot. Then you can create  a circuit as per the original, and a second circuit using a different tranny, diodes, etc., and switch between them.

Definitely something worth breadboarding.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 13, 2011, 12:19:54 PM
i tried tl072, 071 and 082 in the socket, none worked. they DID make a difference stacked on top of the original chip tho. the original is hard to find, that's why i went with the nte replacement, tho i did order the original on ebay...when it comes in, i'll try it out and see if it works.

off to the gig, bro...talk soon.

peace!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: ORK on August 13, 2011, 01:20:15 PM
You are aware of the fact that the RC4136 is the IC with a differing pinout from the usual quad-standard?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 13, 2011, 01:59:04 PM
You are aware of the fact that the RC4136 is the IC with a differing pinout from the usual quad-standard?

Yeah, that's why I would have to shift some thing around on the vero.

i tried tl072, 071 and 082 in the socket, none worked. they DID make a difference stacked on top of the original chip tho.

Those won't work because they are jfet op amps. This requires an operational transconductance amplifier (ota). The LM13600 is a dual ota, so you could use half of it, or like I mentioned above, create a parallel circuit, and switch between the two.

I've been studying a gut shot of the pedal, and I'm wondering if the pedal pot wiring is correct on the schem, especially the purple wire. From the picture, it really isn't clear if it does jump to both 1 and 3 of the pot. There is a bare wire, that runs around for ground, but I can also see it running by the pot terminals, as if it was a jumper. My question is "why would they use a bare wire as a jumper, and risk a short to ground?". Maybe the purple doesn't jump. Maybe it's;
Purple - Pot 2 - term.3
Blue - Pot 2 - term.2
White - Pot 1 - term.3
Grey - Pot 1 - term.2
and leave terminal 1 on both pots open.

Have a look;
(http://files.effectsdatabase.com/gear/pics/colorsound_vocalizer_008.jpg)

It's tough to make out.

Also, I'm wondering about the PNP tranny. I mean, this is a neg. ground pedal. I'm just not up to snuff yet on that one. Oh noob is me! :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: phector2004 on August 13, 2011, 03:02:22 PM
Hey guys, great work! I've been following this thread for a few days now and I'm glad to see how far you've gotten  :)

Hope you get the wiring sorted, but here's something odd I found:

(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=21853&g2_serialNumber=2)

Looking at this picture from the gallery, the mysterious jumper isn't there... hmm
It looks soldered in that last pic, but this one seems to have Digi2t's new wiring scheme (with open 1's)

Maybe the jumpered one's been tampered with/"repaired"?

Best of luck,

Phil


EDIT: Oh and why use a germanium transistor? It's not in the signal path so it doesn't need to soft-clip or anything!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Keppy on August 13, 2011, 04:48:28 PM
Looking at this picture from the gallery, the mysterious jumper isn't there... hmm
It looks soldered in that last pic, but this one seems to have Digi2t's new wiring scheme (with open 1's)

Look again. The bare wire above the top splits from the junction to pin 3 of the pot (you guys have been calling it pin one...I think you have it backwards, unless I'm much mistaken. Check the FAQ here: http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/index.php?title=DIY_FAQ#POTS).

Also, the photo's a bit compressed and grainy, but if you zoom in you can see another bare wire jumper between pins 1 & 3. This photo just has a more straight-on view that causes the wire to disappear against the background of the pot terminals. I don't know anything about this circuit, but I can see that lug 1 connects to lug 3 connects to ground.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: phector2004 on August 13, 2011, 05:08:49 PM
I'm not seeing the jumper in the pic I posted... I see a wire coming from the ground bus thing grounding the pot case, but that's it...

And yeah, it is pin 3.. whoops!  ;D

It might also have the purple wire connecting lug 1 to the pot case. Looks kinda messy there!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Keppy on August 13, 2011, 08:58:36 PM
I had to zoom in to (sort of) see the jumper. Like I said, it's pretty much indistinguishable from the lugs behind it, but if you look between the gaps you can see it, though things get pretty pixelated once you zoom in that far. It's nothing that would hold up in court, but I think I see it. A less-compressed JPEG would show us for certain.

I guess I should point out that the jumper I think I see travels straight over the middle lug on a very short route, unlike the one in the clearer photo that arcs up past the lugs toward the body of the pot. You really have to look in the spaces between lugs to see it. Unless I'm crazy, which is entirely possible at this moment in time. :o
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 13, 2011, 10:55:35 PM
I'll have to differ to the "go to" expression used by most baseball umpires, when a situation gets convoluted....

"I didn't see it".

I don't see it, and since Jimi's got one up and running, maybe he can try it, and report back.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Keppy on August 14, 2011, 01:34:45 AM
Took a closer look, and now I'm less confident. Here's what I was looking at, though.

Note the shiny vertical bit just to the left of the cursor:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Screenshot2011-08-14at122103AM.png)

That shiny bit is missing on the other gang of the pot:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Screenshot2011-08-14at122228AM.png)

Looking closely again, it could just be the way the light reflects of that part of the pot at that particular angle. Or it could be a jumper, though on this closer inspection I can't say with confidence that whatever it is goes all the way to lug 1. Whatever it is, though, hopefully now at least you can see what I was looking at.

Maybe I should stick to pedals designed by drummers.  :-\
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on August 14, 2011, 04:57:10 AM
There is a jumper there, from 1 to 3, I found another slightly better version of the same image this morning, and was going to post, but thought it was not that important. Now I can't find the link, I thought it was in the aaron nelson gallery but maybe not. But yes, I see the jumper too.

I don't know what's going on with jimi's build to have to jumper between the 2 pot sections, and I'm also wondering that the bias for the ge transistor would be set up for the lower turn-on voltage for a ge, so a silicon tranny might not give the same results. The 3 x 1N4148's set the max turn-on bias at approx 1.8V across emiiter to base. The pot would vary the base voltage from that 1.8V max to around 1/12 of the 4.5 volts available = 0.375V.

Great thread, I want to build one. Been following this with interest. Big mystery as to what's going on, as I believe jimi know's what he is doing, and the schem looks correct as far as I can tell.  ???
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: phector2004 on August 14, 2011, 11:16:34 AM
Hmmm good point... maybe the 12k, 3k, and 2.2k connected to the tranny need to be adjusted for non-ME.0.49 transistors? E.g. maybe a 2N3906 or a 2N2907 would do here if those values were played around with?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 14, 2011, 12:35:31 PM
hi guys, i'm gonna try and play with the wiring today a little and see if i can get it working right.

i DON'T know what i'm doing, i'm a total newb outside of building a few things, but i've had fairly decent luck so far.

i tried silicon trannys, made no difference...worked about the same. no tonal difference.

the treadle seems to connect/disconnect the transistor almost, if i pull the tranny out of the socket and then touch it to the socket terminals, it wahs.

right now the transistor i'm using is a russian made mp16b ge pnp with an hfe of 135. that's the hottest one i have.

i think there IS a prob with how i've got it wired tho, so gonna go back to the original now that i clipped that 330r out of the circuit.

tried it yesterday between sets, it sounded great on peet'd gibson sg, but there's a "knock" sound part way thru the rotation. maybe a bias problem, or maybe even why they don't make 'em anymore <g> or most likely cuz i have the pot miswired trying to get the circuit to work right. ;)


we'll see..gimme a little bit, i was on yesterday from 12-12 emceeing and playing at my friend's 70th birthday party, and i'm kinda ToAsT right now.. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 14, 2011, 01:21:28 PM
Quote
right now the transistor i'm using is a russian made mp16b ge pnp

I dunno bro, but my research shows a lot of confusion as to the polarity of the MP16B. Some say PNP, but I've found many pointing to NPN. Even on Ebay, some say NPN, and some PNP. It's about a clear as Mississippi mud!

Quote
The pot would vary the base voltage from that 1.8V max to around 1/12 of the 4.5 volts available = 0.375V

OK, we seem to have concensus on the jumper, and I really respect the hell outta the Kep-meister, so I'll say there is a jumper there. The tranny is probably whats creating the hiccup here, since we don't have any specs on it. Since the numbers generally don't lie, I guess the best way to slice and dice it here would be to put 3 multi-turn trimmers in there instead, set them to the schem resistance specs, and then read the tranny base voltage. Then you could swing the trimmers to line up the tranny, so to speak.

On another note, I've been scouring the net vis-a-vis ME.0.49, including ME049, and ME-0-49, and I've found references pointing to the following PNP transistor; BC212 (BC212-ME049)

The 2N3906 specs are similar, but I believe the BC212's Vbe(on) is just a tad lower, looking at the specs.

I dunno, just a shot in the dark....
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 14, 2011, 01:30:02 PM
i checked the mp16b's with my meter bro, they're indeed pnp. i tried 2n3906, didn't matter. i think the transistor's not being used for tone, but for switching , i think that's why it's making that bump sound under operation. dunno. give me a little bit. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 14, 2011, 01:53:57 PM
Yup, phector2004 is right, it's not in the signal path, so it's switching.

Quote
I don't know what's going on with jimi's build to have to jumper between the 2 pot sections, and I'm also wondering that the bias for the ge transistor would be set up for the lower turn-on voltage for a ge, so a silicon tranny might not give the same results. The 3 x 1N4148's set the max turn-on bias at approx 1.8V across emiiter to base. The pot would vary the base voltage from that 1.8V max to around 1/12 of the 4.5 volts available = 0.375V.]I don't know what's going on with jimi's build to have to jumper between the 2 pot sections, and I'm also wondering that the bias for the ge transistor would be set up for the lower turn-on voltage for a ge, so a silicon tranny might not give the same results. The 3 x 1N4148's set the max turn-on bias at approx 1.8V across emiiter to base. The pot would vary the base voltage from that 1.8V max to around 1/12 of the 4.5 volts available = 0.375V.

This makes a lot of sense since a Ge vbe(on) voltage is usually around 0.25vdc, much lower than Si.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 14, 2011, 07:29:29 PM
OK... I dropped R.G. a line, and the man was kind enough to send me the following analysis... on a Sunday no less! I tell you all, the day this guy leaves us, he's on the express lane to the big guy upstairs! No waiting in line  :icon_lol:. In the meantime, lets put on a pot of coffee, settle back, and enjoy another gem. Guaranteed to send you to bed less stupid tonight;

Quote
That circuit works like this:
Transistor emitter pulled up to 4.7V by 3K resistor; base is pulled down towards ground by 12K fixed resistor, but pulled back UP to 4.7 by the pot and 1.2K. The three diodes prevent the base from being pulled down toward ground by more than three diode drops.

The base-emitter drop of the transistor is approximately the same as one of the three diodes, so without the pot and 1.2K resistor, the base sits at three diodes (about 2.1V) below 4.7V, so the transistor action forces the emitter to be about two diodes (1.4V) below 4.7V, which in turn forces the current through the 3K resistor to be 1.4V/3K = about half a milliamp.

It can't get more than that. And the collector current must be very close to equal to that, and this current is what goes into the bias terminal of the 3080. It's a current source feeding the 3080 bias input.

But the 1.2K and pot do exist, and they pull the base back up towards the 4.7V bias source. In the center, the pot is 11K +1.2K or 12.2K, and at either end, it's 1.2K. Pulling up on the base can raise the base because the diodes only limit how far down it goes, not how far up it can be pulled.

At both ends of the pot travel, the 1.2K and the 12K to ground form a voltage divider downwards from the 4.7V bias voltage. The voltage is 4.7* (1.2/(1.2+12)) = 0.47V down from 4.7V, or 4.27V. Notice that this is less than one diode drop or Vbe drop, so the base is pulled UP so much that there is either none or almost no current for the emitter, and the bias current to the 3080 goes to zero, shutting it off.

At the middle of the pot travel, the pot is 1.2K + 11K, or 12.2K, and the voltage divider action on the base tries to let the base go to 4.7V - 4.7V* (12.2K/(12.2K+12K)) = 2.33V. However, the three diodes keep it from getting lower than 4.7V-2.1V = 2.6V. So with the pot in the middle, the current rises to half a milliamp, about.

The pot action is to start the current at nearly zero with the pot at one end, increasing to half a milliampere at the middle of travel, then decreasing down to zero again. This is approximately the right behavior for a vocal formant if it's the lower F1 formant.  So if what the 3080 does is to change the frequency of one of the filters reasonably linearly, that's going to work.

The characteristics of the transistor seem to be about right for a silicon PNP to me. I'd stick in a 2N3906 and try it.

You can check to see if it's working by reading the voltage across that 3K resistor with a meter. It should be a minimum of nearly zero from end to end, and go up to about 2-2.1V with the pot in the middle. On the collector of the transistor, the DC voltage to ground should go from about 0.5V minimum to about 3.5V max if all this is working right.

You can check the operation of the filters this way:
Remove the 4.7K from pin 12 of the 4136 to the output. This lets you test the other filter.
Put through a signal and see if you hear a resonant sweep from the output. If not, that filter's not working. If it is, put the 4.7K back in and remove the 2.7K from pin 10. This now tests the filter controlled by the 3080. It should sweep up, then down as the pot is rotated. If not, it is possible that the 3080 is hosed (they're fairly fragile) or the filter is not working.

To test if it's the 3080, disconnect the wire between the two 4n7 caps and pin 6 of the 3080. Now use a pot between the 4n7s and ground to see if the filter sweeps. If it does, the 3080 was the problem. If not, the filter has a problem even if the 3080 is working. The 3080 acts like an electronically variable resistor in this setup.

As a general check on the opamps, all pins (+, -, and output) on the quad opamp except the power pins should be sitting at the bias voltage of 4.7V.

Check the pinouts and power to the opamp chip. I always hated the 4136. I hope you've replaced it with a different and more modern device, adjusting the pinout accordingly.

And there you have it. TL074 can be a reasonable substitute for the 4136, like I mentioned earlier, I can redraw the layout to accomodate, and will. The NTE996 should be alright as a stand in for the 3080.

A great big THANKS to R.G.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 14, 2011, 09:57:39 PM
ok, i messed with it some more, you won't like this, but it works... :o ::) :icon_eek:

i got it working. it sounds KILLER. but ...here's the weird thing. i think the colour codes were changed, or this weird ass pot i got is wired funky by drummers on lsd.

here ya go...using your method of pot 1 being closest to you, and pot 2 being closest to the spindle, and lugs being 1-2-3 left to right from the back of the pot.


(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/294971_2149256423873_1620235552_212.jpg)

this is the only way this thing seems to work...read 'em and weep.

pot 1
lug 1 grey wire on your vero layout
lug 2 white wire
lug3 no connection

pot 2
lug 1 purple wire
lug 2 blue wire (brown, on mine)
lug 3 TIED DIRECTLY TO GROUND.

that goes against the picture, i know, but with this pot (the one i found on evil bay) this is definitely the way to hook it up. every other way was weird, making knocking sounds as the treadle was moved, or the pedal working backwards....ie, toe down= more bass. now the wah is definitely happening, the fuzz indeed works as a contour control,and it has plenty of baallz. now if you re-connect the 330r resistor it's at unity gain, as well. but i like it disconnected, cuz it has way more balls. i may make this switchable. ;)

i will try and get a video demo done tomorrow...i think we've cracked this nut finally.
;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: phector2004 on August 14, 2011, 10:17:36 PM
Hey man,

Glad to hear it works, even though the wiring's a bit different

Pot1 seems fine (same as schematic)
Pot2 is supposed to have 1 and 3 connected, and nothing connected to ground... does it vocalize? I think that filter's supposed to sweep up and back down while the other one keeps sweeping in one direction

And thanks big time for testing this out!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 14, 2011, 10:49:46 PM
to get something straight dino, YOUR LAYOUT is 100% on the money with the schematics and gut shots. well done bro!!!

i wanna see what happens with your build, and if the custom pots make a difference.

i just tried this thing into a clean amp, little reverb with the cans on...and man. DEFINITELY formants at the bottom of the pedal travel. more than a wah, and similar to the pII other than not having the "animation". the fuzz control mainly seems to be a contour, it changes the feel of the fuzz and seems to add sustain.

absolutely killer pedal. i can't believe i built it!!!

i did make a little mod, too...i put a 500r trimmer in series with the 330r resistor, so i can dial in the output to unity gain or above. 330r is probably unity, but seems a little weak to my ears, probably cuz i'm deaf.
 ;)

giving it a little more output is good...no resistor, and it sounds boss, but don't try and put anything after it..i tried it with a fuzz, and could completely overdrive the fuzz to the point it sounded like compressed lightning bolts. uglyface-ish. cool, but not necessarily useable. 330r makes it play nice with other pedals, but is a little too "tame". try a 470r instead maybe, up to 1k or so is probably plenty. out of the circuit, it's a great lead boost, but make sure dirt pedals are BEFORE it.

anyways, it works, and kicks some ass. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 15, 2011, 01:10:57 AM
Quote
to get something straight dino, YOUR LAYOUT is 100% on the money with the schematics and gut shots. well done bro!!!
Hey bro, does that mean that lugs 1 & 3 (purple) are tied together now, or are you still running 3 to ground? I thought about the voltage divider idea, but it goes contrary to R.G.'s analysis. I would really love to know, so I can correct the original layout if required.

A 1K trimmer in place of the 330R is an excellent idea. I guess if you really wanted to get fancy, you could drill a small hole in the bottom for a small screwdriver for adjustment, in case your setup changes.

I took R.G.'s advice, and have drawn up another layout, using different IC's (NTE996 and TL074). Again, I triple checked it, but I'll maintain it as UNVERIFIED until further notice.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/ColorsoundVocalizerALT_IC.jpg)

I managed to get the board smaller by one hole as well, and I spaced the 330R resistor to accomodate a multi turn trimmer in it's place, center cut for the #2 lug included :icon_cool:.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: soggybag on August 15, 2011, 01:36:48 AM
Might be good to have a version with TL074 and 3080. Not sure but it seems that 3080 might be easier to get than the NTE part.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 15, 2011, 02:02:41 AM
3080 and 996 have the same pinout, so 6 of one, or half dozen of the other. According to R.G. a silicon PNP tranny should work in here as well.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on August 15, 2011, 05:13:10 AM
So nice of R G Keen to reply, he must have a heart of gold.

BC212 is a silicon tranny according to the datsheet I dragged up off the net. I might try to breadboard just the tranny section to see what current comes out to feed the 3080, with a silicon PNP. Won't be tonight though. Looks like the 3080 needs half a milliamp for max gain (transconductance) with a 2mA absolute max before it gets broken. So the sweep of the pot should cause a zero to 0.5mA current across that 3K resistor, corresponding to a zero to 1.5V voltage drop across said 3K resistor. Max voltage should be with the pot in the middle, and zero at each extreme of travel.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 15, 2011, 09:52:36 AM
Quote
to get something straight dino, YOUR LAYOUT is 100% on the money with the schematics and gut shots. well done bro!!!
Hey bro, does that mean that lugs 1 & 3 (purple) are tied together now, or are you still running 3 to ground? I thought about the voltage divider idea, but it goes contrary to R.G.'s analysis. I would really love to know, so I can correct the original layout if required.

A 1K trimmer in place of the 330R is an excellent idea. I guess if you really wanted to get fancy, you could drill a small hole in the bottom for a small screwdriver for adjustment, in case your setup changes.

I took R.G.'s advice, and have drawn up another layout, using different IC's (NTE996 and TL074). Again, I triple checked it, but I'll maintain it as UNVERIFIED until further notice.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/ColorsoundVocalizerALT_IC.jpg)

I managed to get the board smaller by one hole as well, and I spaced the 330R resistor to accomodate a multi turn trimmer in it's place, center cut for the #2 lug included :icon_cool:.


this is how it's wired in mine....

pot 1
lug 1 grey wire on your vero layout
lug 2 white wire
lug3 no connection

pot 2
lug 1 purple wire
lug 2 blue wire (brown, on mine)
lug 3 TIED DIRECTLY TO GROUND.

however what roman says could be true as well tho...it is possible to have it wired where the "peak" is in the middle. imho, it doesn't seem to work as well that way, tho it does work, which is probably the stock intention...put the "wah" treble part in the middle and rock it on and off, contrary to a normal wah wah. i wired mine last nite as a normal wah, which probably accounts for the wiring discrepancy.

but...in the gut shot posted...

and i'm sure of this, after looking at it a bunch...pins 1 and 3 are jumpered (purple wire), and are connected to ground, with the signal going in the middle (blue wire),,,then it will indeed rock in and out of the formant with bass/mudd at each end and the treble/ahh sound in the middle. to me tho, it's just plain not really usable like that, very dark and muddy sounding and doesn't cut thru without some help from a fuzz before it (which gives an insane power wah sound) or after it (where it either overpowers the fuzz and doesn't really seem to be too musical) if the 330 is lifted where it still sounds kinda weak to my ears.

right now, the most annoying thing is the damn treadle is squalking and incredibly annoying. the other day i cured it with a shot of silicon, but no dice last nite. ya gotta have the amp pretty loud to drown it out, which is annoying.

anyone know how to de-squeek a wah?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 15, 2011, 10:12:25 AM
A 1M resistor from the pivot pin, directly to ground. Should take care of it  :icon_mrgreen:.

Seriously, you'll have to knock out the pin, clean and lube everything, put it back together.

Quote
however what roman says could be true as well tho...it is possible to have it wired where the "peak" is in the middle. imho, it doesn't seem to work as well that way, tho it does work, which is probably the stock intention...put the "wah" treble part in the middle and rock it on and off, contrary to a normal wah wah. i wired mine last nite as a normal wah, which probably accounts for the wiring discrepancy.

Yeah, that would give a "ooooo wahhhh ooooo" sorta deal through the sweep, making it somewhat vocal sounding. But, as you say, when you're used to a regular wah, it would not be very practical. God damn, I've just got to find my breadboard, and rig this up.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 15, 2011, 10:34:33 AM
i found it kinda annoying to wire it that way, stock..

aha, it's the damn PIN sqwalking!!! now i can fix it!! lol!! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 15, 2011, 02:20:23 PM


here ya go, the colorsound vocalizer clone and my "Liberal KomradE" mp16b pnp ge fuzzface variant.
both thru a clean amp, little reverb. sorry for the unintentional distortion...it's got some balls.
;)

anyways.. imagine this peaking in the center of the pedal for the possible original config of the colorsound vocalizer pedal.

it's a really nice wah...very phat and very vocally, lot of 2nd harmonic. not a real high range to the sweep, but plenty phat.

anyways...
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 15, 2011, 04:20:24 PM
OMG BRO!!!   THAT IS PHAT!!!!!

Man, that wah is wicked nice. Like you said, it's got pipes dude. With that fuzz in front of it, it's killer, doesn't matter where you are on the neck. Way up high, ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL!! Imagine that coming out of a couple of Marshall stacks  :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: That'll perk up some ears on f**kin' Mars!

Man, I am soooo proud! Great job bro. I think I'm going to try and make a little work space down in the basement this week, and put one together. I'm stoked now!!

Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 15, 2011, 06:26:02 PM
hee hee hee...i knew you'd like it...that's minus the 330 r resistor, into a totally digital amp...so it'll probably scream with tubes!

also, wired as a wah...thinking maybe the thing to do is make it switchable from "formant" with "aaah" in the middle to normal toe down wah.

it is phat as hell tho, ain't it? ;)

and that's with the NEC  replacement equivalent...so  i think you can call it verified if ya want, cuz it definitely kicks some ass!! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Keppy on August 16, 2011, 02:17:38 AM
Nice job, guys! That sounds great!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 16, 2011, 10:49:23 AM
thanks kep! ;)

jerkulator today, then tomorrow i start on the mouthmeister..
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on August 17, 2011, 04:40:38 AM
Jimi, that sounds real nice! I need to order some parts. I built a colorsound wah clone years ago after I left my original behind, went back 15 mins later and it was gone. I even wound my own inductor, the original inductor had 470 turns. The vocalizer sounds like it has even better possibilities. Do you have a link to your liberal comrade cct somewhere?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 17, 2011, 11:17:20 AM
hi ronan,

yah, the colorsound wah is really nice... phat sqwalk!

as for the liberal komrade, just built a dunlop jh2 fuzz, don't put the snubbers in on the transistors, wire the electrolytics and diode (not the clipper) backwards and make it a positive ground circuit.

i used russian nos germaniums, a matched set around 85 hfe or whatever in the sockets.

i'll try and draw you up a layout of what i did later and start a new thread for ya. glad ya like it.
the name was a stretch. how the f"(% do ya say fuzz face in russian? man, i'm glad i just edited my post here before i hit enter. ;)

here's an edit...

go to this page:

http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/fuzzface/fftech.htm

look at the jh2. add an asymetrical diode clipper with 1n34a ge's,  make sure that the 2.2u and 22u caps and the 9.1v zener are reversed, and use the mp16b's, shoot for a gain around 80-100. you should be good to go.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on August 18, 2011, 07:26:08 AM
Hey thanks jimi, the description is fine, don't worry about a layout I can work that out. Tomorrow I'll order some parts for that vocalizer and the lib com. Peace Bro.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 18, 2011, 10:46:16 AM
ok bro, no worries. i DID whip up a layout for ya tho, lol...but it's gotta be refined a little bit, as i was tired.

the 22k pot you can get on ebay outta england for around 3 bux plus shipping. only place i found one...it's plastic, but works great.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 22, 2011, 10:58:44 PM
hey dino, i think that this is supposed to be a 2.2k dual pot, not a 22k...see the mouthmeister thread.

i think i was sweeping right past it in the first little part of the rotation...or, it's some weird taper...maybe audio?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 23, 2011, 12:12:15 AM
I've zoomed the drawing, but I didn't see any decimal between the two 2's. I've commented on this, on the Mouthmeister thread. Actually, now that I think about it, those plastic pots you're using, are those conductive plastic? Could that be messing with the circuit? Just a shot in the dark here.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 23, 2011, 08:44:52 AM
hey dino, i think that this is supposed to be a 2.2k dual pot, not a 22k...see the mouthmeister thread.

i think i was sweeping right past it in the first little part of the rotation...or, it's some weird taper...maybe audio?

I've been thinking about this, and maybe there's another way. Case in point, the Ludwig. Why is there a resistor on the treadle pot? Maybe to change the taper/sweep? Check this page out; http://www.jt30.com/jt30page/potfix/ (http://www.jt30.com/jt30page/potfix/), http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/potsecrets/potscret.htm (http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/potsecrets/potscret.htm), or http://gaussmarkov.net/wordpress/parts/resistors/resistors-6-mods/ (http://gaussmarkov.net/wordpress/parts/resistors/resistors-6-mods/). They talk about using resistors to "change" the taper of a lin to a log. To some extent I've done the same thing with the Bias pot on the Skyripper, and Parallel Universe. In these cases, I've used trimmers as VR's, and soldered them directly to the lugs of the pots. If you look at this picture, at the second row of pots (from the top), right in the middle above the board, you'll see a pot with a trimmer soldered directly to the lugs.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/PICT0050.jpg)

This is the Bias pot of the circuit. Why did I put a 25K trimmer here? Because I couldn't find a pot that had just the right sweep/taper for the job, so I cheated. I used a trimmer larger than the pot resistance, and then started dialing down. At some point, my B25K started to react like an "A17K". By tweaking the trimmer, I managed to stretch out the taper, giving me a sweep, and get a curve to my liking.

As R.G.'s page points out, I'm essentially using the trimmer as a "taper resistor", except in this case, my resistor is adjustable :icon_wink:. It might be a way to get around the sweep problem, and tailor it to your ears as well.

Then... maybe, different taper resistances for each pot?  :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 25, 2011, 09:44:00 PM
Hi bro,

Maybe try this; When the heel is down on the pedal, stick a resistor between the wiper lug, and the lug that the wiper is next to, in the heel down position. Try 20% of the pot value, so 22K x .20 =  4.4, so lets say a 4.3K to start. This should stretch the taper out more in the first half of the travel (going from heel to toe), like an audio taper. Like in this "B" plot;

(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4662/taperwy4.png)

The percentages represent precentage of your pot value, so if you really want to stretch out the first half of the travel, then go with 10% then, or 2.2K.

The reason I mentioned using trimmers (my fav) is because you can cover a range of resistors with one part, and fine tune. I generally use a 10K or 25K trimmer.

Do the same to both pots. You might find that you'll get a nicer sweep. If it does work, then I can maybe incorporate a spot on the vero where taper resistors can be added to suit personal tastes.

And if you're wondering about plot "A", that's the sweep you can achieve by using 2 resistors, one between lugs 1 and 2, and another between lugs 2 and 3. Then you can shape each side of the taper from center. Could be a real cool way to shape the sound of a wah to the travel  :icon_wink:.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 25, 2011, 10:24:11 PM
dude!!! that is so hip!!

sorry didn't get tot hit the pedal tonite, too busy making toothpicks out of logs today to have any kind of life. at least i got the firebird done for the show tomorrow nite.

i will try and hit this on saturday when i get some breathing room and have a couple bucks in my pocket. the trimmer idea is wicked simple and valid i think, and may solve the issue. i really do think the coloursound pedal is suffering from the same problem i had with the mouth meister. both have similar sounds (duh, i guess they should being FORMANT pedals, right pink? lol) and exhibited similar weirdness. we'll see what happens. i'm pretty sure the coloursound may well function with just a single pot if wired right. i bet when they put up the schematic something weird happened, or maybe coloursound themselves put the wrong values on something. it's gotta be something obvious i've overlooked or something.

we'll figure this out. ;)

then build one with an uglyface in it. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on August 25, 2011, 10:32:11 PM
OK. I've been doing a lot of reading on wahs of late, and audio, or custom, tapers always come up. Never linear.

BUT....

If this pedal was supposed to be low at each end, and high in the middle, like the original schem shows, then I could understand the linear pot. Since you're not using it that way, audio taper would be the way to go. So, in this case, maybe we can just cheat  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 25, 2011, 11:04:06 PM
that's the weird thing tho dino...it's high at each end, and low in the middle as per the schematic...but not in a real useable way...the hell position is maybe 1/5-1/10th the pedal travel, and then a wah from about half way up to toe down. that's almost the same thing that the mouthmeister was doing...that's why i'm thinking it's gotta either be an audio taper pot, where most of the travel is in the beginning and just a little at the end (maybe reverse audio taper? not sure how that works, maybe we should call the Resident Genius in for a consult if he can spare a few minutes) or it needs to spread that formant out over the useable range...remember rg said the formants occur at specific frequency ranges when we were working with the pII...if that's the case, since 2.2k is about 1/10th of the pot we're using, that should work out.

maybe something like this:

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PD-222A/2.2K-LINEAR-DUAL-POTENTIOMETER/1.html

or this...

http://www.westfloridacomponents.com/P029/Dual+Potentiometer++2.2K+and+25K+Carbon.html


the second one looks interesting!! ;)

i ordered one of the first ones, just for the heck of it.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Keppy on August 26, 2011, 12:12:40 AM
It's possible you need a W taper, like in a TS. The wah I gutted to make the Phase II had a W100k pot in it.

A W taper is reverse audio until the halfway point and audio taper after that.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 26, 2011, 10:59:34 AM
i think that's the marking on the pot i took out of the pyle bro,...but it's 100k, and too much wah pedal travel. over 10 k it turns into a wah pedal. weird!!!
i tried using a resistor to make it different, but it plain didn't work...will have to play with it when i get some time.
;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Keppy on August 26, 2011, 09:02:38 PM
Oh, I wasn't suggesting a 100k, just pointing out that a W taper is something found sometimes in wah effects and other filters.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 05, 2011, 09:41:16 PM
hey dino, i revisited this today to see if i could figure it out..

as it turns out, i think the schematic is wrong. it's working now, i set it up like this....

think of the terminals of the dual pot like you would a dpdt

1   6
2   5
3   4

so i wired it like this (as per your layout color code):

1 purple
2 blue
3 GROUND
4 no connection
5 gray
6 white

this way definitely works, either terminal one or 3 needs to be connected to the purple wire, and the other side needs to be grounded, or it plain doesn't work. but pretty much either way, 1 or 3, does. if you jumper them, then the effect stays stuck in the bass range, sounds a lot like a pII heel down.

but diggit...at the top of the range of the treadle pot, if you go just a little too far, it goes to ANOTHER "heel down" position, and a much quicker sweep thru another formant...maybe the last 5-10% of the pedal's travel. so the secret appears to be to move the pinion gear around so that at full toe down, it's hitting the peak before it dumps into the next formant. when you build it, you'll see what i mean. it's about an "octave" higher, and is the one i'd probably go for if i knew what i was doing and designed this pedal. the formant it has now is a solid oooohwahhhhhhhhhh. so it's working bro.

my previous reports i think were operator error, trying to get that tiny area at the end of the pot's travel to be the far larger sweet spot it was supposed to be. i wouldn't have learned this without the mouthmeistor i don't think.

so anyways...seems to be good bro! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 05, 2011, 10:26:06 PM
Hi bro,

Just got back in, I'll give you a shout tomorrow.

I've been studying the pictures of the originals, and I think you must have it wired right. I say this because by my observation of the two different pics of the originals. In one pic, I truely don't believe that a bare wire would not have been used as a jumper on the pot, unless for grounding. Why risk shorting a signal with a bare. I think in one pic, they're grounding the lug, and then jumping the bare to the pot case. In the other pic, I believe they folded the lug to the case, and soldered the bare and lug to the case saving the jumper.

I've stared at these pics until my eyes have gone buggy, and in my heart of hearts, I think this is the case. This would also backup your build. I'm slowly getting geared up to do this build, and if mine works this way as well, it will validate my assumption.

As for the pinion position, the Ludwig does the same thing, so I understand what you're talking about. I will be testing putting resistors on the pot though to bend the taper. Should be interesting to see what results. Found a neat pot taper calculator on Joe Davisson's site; http://www.diystompboxes.com/analogalchemy/emh/emh.html (http://www.diystompboxes.com/analogalchemy/emh/emh.html) .
The "Linear Pot" page is for converting log pots to linear, and the "Taper Pots" page is for converting linear to log pots. You can also calculate the percetage of taper as well (to within reason!). Cool stuff.

Talk tomorrow,
Dino
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 06, 2011, 08:49:08 PM
k bro....right now i'm not gonna mess with it too much...it works, sounds good, that's good enough for me.

but....i don't really LOVE the circuit...it seems a bit muddy compared to other wahs, and it's high end is about an octave less than a crybaby. that's why i was thinking the other part of the pot's travel was the sweet spot we were looking for.

i am seriously wondering, after looking at the schematic for hours, where it says heel and toe by the 22k pot, if it's SUPPOSED to "wha" at each end from the middle tho.

i don't think it works really well like that, but maybe that's how it's supposed to be?

man...if we could find someone who actually had one to compare, that would be so awesome..

don't get me wrong, it's a nice sounding pedal...and fair's fair, i used it at the gig the other day set up wrong...so maybe my perspective will change when i get to mess with it a little bit more.

anyways...i'm home tonite chillin' bro, if ya get a chance, gimme a hollah! ;)  sorry i couldn't talk earlier, it's been one of them days...again...sheesh. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 11, 2011, 07:55:39 PM
Hmmm...
Technology of the Colorsound Vocalizer
Input signal to sections A and B of opamp. Input impedance 120K paralleled with 100K. Input noninverting to fuzz opamp 1-2-3, inverting to clean opamp 4-5-6, with gain of 3.3 to noninverting/clean. Gain of 1+1M/27K on fuzz, clipped by diodes. Clean and fuzz blended/selected by cross-signal blend pot. Blended signal to both formant filters in parallel; Section 8-9-10 being F2, section 12-13-14 being F1. Filter frequency set by dual 22K pot. Filters are resistor-to-ground multiple feedback bandpass types. See The Technology of Wah Pedals, http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/wahpedl/wahped.htm (http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/wahpedl/wahped.htm) and "Human Voices and the Wah Pedal" http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/wahpedl/voicewah.htm (http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/wahpedl/voicewah.htm). F2 rises monotonically with pot position. F1 uses the same trick as the EH "talking wah" of tying both ends of a pot together to get a resistance that rises, then falls. The resistance range was not enough, so this resistance is used to control the 3080 OTA set up as a current controlled resistor. PNP transistor converts pot position to variable current into the OTA's bias pin. Two filter outputs added in parallel in a resistive adder for the output.

Simple. Cheap.

Hitting particular formants will be random-ish with part variation, but should be interesting. Can be tuned for better. Q changes with frequency, probably not too badly.
Much like the EH talking way or a couple of the wah-antiwah setups noted other places.  Likely to lose some bass response with low notes because F1 is a bandpass, not a lowpass filter.


hmmmm....now i'm wondering if the 3080's bad....gonna try reversing the wires on the pot and see if it still works. cuz wired as shown on the schematic has gotta be wrong, unless either the vero's wrong (i've looked it over 30000000 x and it looks to match the schem 100%) or one side of the 3080's bad.

onwards and upwards. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 11, 2011, 11:24:08 PM
Having read R.G.'s article, it seems plausible now that while one pot sweeps one formant (F2) from high to low, the other (F1) sweeps up in the middle then back down. That would explain why one pot has lugs 1 and 3 jumpered together (purple wire). Maybe the original schematic is correct after all, even if the pics are too vague.

I've been studying the Colorsound Dipthonizer circuit, and I've spotted some similarities.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/ClrsndDipth2.gif)

If we look at the lower right side, we can see the formant sections (4558 ic). In the Vocalizer, they use half of the 4136. One difference I see, is that in the Dipthonizer they use two 1n5 caps for F2, while in the Vocalizer they run parallel 220p and 680p caps. That's 900p, not too far from 1n5. I guess that's how they tuned the formant to get a vowel pronounciation. On the other formant, both pedals use 4n7 caps. The 3 diodes to ground are also present. In the Dipthonizer, they go directly to ground, while in the Vocalizer they have to go through a 12K resistor to get there. I'm wondering if tweaking the 12K will make up for slight differences in the forward voltages of the diodes? Maybe a trimmer here? I think when I start putting this together, I'm going to sub in trimmers for the 1K2 (purple wire), the 12K (below diodes), and the 3K (above tranny). Set them to the schem resistances, and then tweak them to see if I can "smoothen" the up and down sweep through F1. Maybe during production, certain components were pretested for the exact tolerences for this circuit. I think you need to be spot on to get the right sound here. Could be why this pedal is so rare. Too labour intensive to find just the right resistors and caps to make it work just right.

I've also read "elsewhere" that changing the 2K2 resistor going to pin 5 of the 3080, changes the "color" of the sound. A sort of Q adjustment perhaps? Mind you, this was taken from the Dipthonizer notes, so I don't know how it would work on the Vocalizer. On the Dipthonizer, they add a 4K7 resistor in parallel to a 10K, wired through a switch to change the frequency sweep.

We can also see the fuzz section (1/2 of a LM324 in the Dipthonizer, 1/2 of the 4136 in the Vocalizer). Playing with the resistor value next to the clipping diodes (feedback resistor?) will probably change the fuzz intensity. Could even try different diodes here, although I'm not sure if it will have adverse consequences on the vocal side of things. In the Dipthonizer schem though, we find a .0022uF cap bridged across, along side the diodes and resistor, perhaps to brighten the tone.

Looking at both, I get the impression that if you combine the two, you've got an IC version of the Ludwig... Dipthonizer, LFO sweeping vowels, Vocalizer, pedal sweeping frequencies... I dunno, I might be dreaming here  :icon_confused:

Anyway, that's my 2 bits, FWIW. Then again, I might be out to lunch as well. If that's the case, I'll have the pastrami on rye, double mustard, to go. :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 14, 2011, 10:03:13 AM
hey dino, was talking with boris on another forum, he said this this morning...maybe it IS right as per the schematic:

"you have in your configuration 2 wahs in paralell.....going up and down togerher....different capacitors in each ,so therer is no wowels happening there....that pot lugs should be connected to V/2 throught 1k2 resistor.......and than through transistor you controll ca3080 which acts like variabile resistance for lower filter.......so on heel position one filter is all in high frequencies,other one goes from bass to high(in the middle of travell) and again to bass freq.......so there should be taler effect.........

You could allways add little toggle switch to choose your sound or original one.......I would like to make it talk so soon I will make one too.

You could check what is happening around Ca3080 and tranny ....is there voltage swinging on pin5............"

so i'll try to check it out later today, and will report back my findings..
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 14, 2011, 08:27:14 PM
OK bro.

I'm thinking the schem is right as well. I'm also trying to find any info on the tranny. I was told that it was your garden variety PNP germ. I'm wondering if a silicon tranny would make any difference here, but again, I was told that it had to balance with the total forward voltage of the 3 diodes. I think it's in this thread, earlier on.

Check the 3080 though. That guy boris seems to know his shit. He's put out a ton of info on the Dipthonizer clone.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 14, 2011, 08:30:06 PM
will do bro....trying to sort out some other probs with the "one chip chorus"...and check the ludwig thread.... :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 14, 2011, 09:43:34 PM
OK... I've been thinking, how the hell are we sure that the tranny is shown in the right orientation in the schematic. I mean, the guy could have just taken it for granted that the emitter was on the 3K resistor side. Maybe the it's in the wrong way? I'm sending a PM to R.G.. The reason why I'm questioning this is because I was reading this article; www.geofex.com/pcb_layouts/layouts/d&rpub.pdf  (http://www.geofex.com/pcb_layouts/layouts/d&rpub.pdf) , when I noticed that the tranny feeding pin 5 of the 3080 isn't orientated the same way as the Vocalizer schem. 

Just had another thought... You're using conductive plastic pot, right? Check your pot as well. Maybe too much heat from the soldering iron?

Just a shot in the dark  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 15, 2011, 04:37:28 PM
naah, the pot works the same as always. ;)

but...the transistor?

i've tried every pnp i have. and it makes almost no difference which way the transistor is plugged in!!!!!!

silicon doesn't sound as good, ge sounds better and works better...probably cuz of the leakage. i tried a couple different ge pnp's, they all sounded the same...either way it seems to work the same...go figure!! ;)

did you get them custom pots in yet bro?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 15, 2011, 06:21:56 PM
There shouldn't be a change in the audio, since the transistor is not in the audio path.
Quote
Quote
Also, seeing as how the diodes are silicon, would the tranny have to be silicon, germanium, or just any PNP tranny?
My best guess is that it needs to be silicon PNP. With silicon diodes setting the idle current (that's what they do) one of the diodes compensates for the base emitter drop of the transistor, and the other two force two silicon drops to appear across that 3K, resulting in a resting current of (0.6V +0.6V)/3K = 400uA from the transistor. The two pots raise the base, starving the diode chain, and lowering the current below that amount into the OTA.

I know you've been having a rough time with this one. One thing that comes to mind is that the 3080 is *very* fragile if you feed too much current into pin 5. If it goes over 1ma, they just quietly die. A probe short or a wrong hookup can kill them dead.





Could it be the 3080 is toast?

Are you getting any swing at the collector with the pedal movement? I think Boris mentioned something about checking pin 6 as well. Guess we'll wait and see.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 15, 2011, 07:28:34 PM
checking now...

pin one

heel / toe 0v

2

heel   4.15  toe 3.93

3  same as 2

4  0

5  heel  .51   toe  .63

6  heel 4.15  toe 3.92

7  9.58

8   0


i'd say the 3080 chip is working.

4136n, same way, heel then toe

1  4.22   3.99

2  4.10    3.87

3   4/40     4.18

4   4.05   3.83

5  4.17    3.94

6   4:19   3.95

7   0

8   4.07  3.84

9  4.05    3.82

10   3.50   bounces around and settles 3.26

11  9.58

12   3.50   3.27

13   4.05   3.82

14   4.07  3.84


that seems to be working too.

mp16b

e  3.31   2.20

b  3.93  2.16

c  .61  2.30

so  .....what do you think bro?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: tiges_ tendres on September 15, 2011, 07:43:10 PM
Transistor voltages look off to me.  Collector seems too low.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 15, 2011, 08:18:59 PM
hmmm...this thing was working great til last nite, too.

tried a couple other transistors, they all read about the same.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 15, 2011, 09:28:54 PM
What are you getting for voltage either side of the 1K2 resistor (before purple wire)?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 15, 2011, 09:31:48 PM
let me go check. ;)

btw...check your facebook wall and your pm's there.   :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 15, 2011, 09:39:41 PM
Thanks bro! That's for the Whine-O-Wah from what I can tell. If you follow the name of the file (SD-WW part).

Thanks for the Vocalizer stuff from Boris. I already had a PCB layout, but I can compare the two to make sure.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 15, 2011, 09:48:04 PM
4.09 on the top rail, 4.01 on the second of r 17
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 15, 2011, 10:34:01 PM
4.09 on the top rail, 4.01 on the second of r 17

Hmm, schem says we should see 4.7v on the top rail. 1N750A is a 4.7v Zener, so 4.7v should be present here, unless your battery is below 4.7v. I'm working on it. Gonna try to breadboard this next week.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on September 15, 2011, 11:17:53 PM
I was thinking the same...the battery voltage is 9.58V at pin 11 of the 4136. Looks like 0.5V has gone missing from the 4.7V supply. You got a 1N750 zener in there Jimi?

Another thing that may not be right is the voltage change on the collector of the tranny  (0.61V to 2.30V) does not appear at pin 5 of the 3080, there is only a change of 0.51V to 0.63V at pin 5. Unfortunately I am not familiar with the 3080, but it doesn't look right, from the datasheet, the typical bias current at pin 5 is 2 microamps, and the typical bias voltage at pin 5 is 0.7V, but we have 700 microamps (0.7mA) flowing through that R5 2K2 resistor with 0.63V at pin 5.

Such a mystery...
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 15, 2011, 11:48:08 PM
hmmmm...

i will look tomorrow at that diode, maybe it's popped?

it sounds like bad diode clipping.

the pedal still works as in passing signal with the 3080 pulled out, tried 4  4136's...all same.

also tried another pair of pnp's...makes no diff which way they are put in. really weird.

beginning to suspect the damn pot....conductive plastic may be too conductive
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: ORK on September 16, 2011, 02:39:24 AM
I was thinking the same...the battery voltage is 9.58V at pin 11 of the 4136. Looks like 0.5V has gone missing from the 4.7V supply. You got a 1N750 zener in there Jimi?

Another thing that may not be right is the voltage change on the collector of the tranny  (0.61V to 2.30V) does not appear at pin 5 of the 3080, there is only a change of 0.51V to 0.63V at pin 5. Unfortunately I am not familiar with the 3080, but it doesn't look right, from the datasheet, the typical bias current at pin 5 is 2 microamps, and the typical bias voltage at pin 5 is 0.7V, but we have 700 microamps (0.7mA) flowing through that R5 2K2 resistor with 0.63V at pin 5.

Such a mystery...
The OTA 3080 is being controlled by a current going into the control pin5. Not by a voltage at that pin. The voltage at the collector of the transistor is being converted into a control-current by the 2k2 resistor between the collector and pin5. You can look at pin5 like being a diode with cathode to ground, where the voltage at the anode only varies a small amount depending on the current passing through it.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Colorsound20Vocalizer20schematic20-eget.jpg)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on September 16, 2011, 04:17:43 AM
Thanks ORK, I had a deeper look at the datasheet.
0.61-0.51/2200 = 45uA and 2.3-0.63/2200 = 760uA which means the tranny is doing its job perfectly and the 3080 is probably fine.
Just looking for possibilities, anything eliminated is one less thing to worry about.

Edit: but that doesn't explain why the pot that controls the tranny had to be grounded...mystery.

Jimi, any chance of unsoldering the purple wire from the pot, pulling out the tranny, then measuring the voltages on the e b and c sockets for the tranny?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 16, 2011, 10:41:14 AM
i can do that, probably not today tho. too many other projects, like re-assembling my pedal board for a show tonite.

beginning to wonder if the conductive pot is conducting, or has become damaged by being molested so much.

gonna check that zener, i got a bunch of them for this project. whatever is on the schem/layout is on the board, in precision resistances and the best caps i could get that would fit.

i think the 3080 is fine, so is the transister and the other chip....i bet it's diode failure, letting too much voltage thru or something. it really seems to depend on the intensity of the input as to whether it makes that nasty unmusical distortion...so gonna check the input caps etc too.

damn...so much to do today...and ya KNOW this is gonna get messed with...  lol   :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on September 16, 2011, 08:41:51 PM
It's possible there's a mistake in the schematic. Pin 4 of the quad IC is connected to pin 9 via a 47K resistor. Shouldn't this 47K resistor connect pin 9 to the 4.7V rail? Anyone care to comment? Have I lost the plot again?  :D

I was comparing the schematic to that of the ehx talking pedal, (http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/pdf/4101.pdf)they are remarkably similar...
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 17, 2011, 09:00:17 AM
Quote
It's possible there's a mistake in the schematic. Pin 4 of the quad IC is connected to pin 9 via a 47K resistor. Shouldn't this 47K resistor connect pin 9 to the 4.7V rail?

I have a PCB layout of the Vocalizer as well, and it's not the case. It's here; http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/digi2t/Information/Colorsound_20Vocalizer_LAY_5D_1_.pdf.html (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/digi2t/Information/Colorsound_20Vocalizer_LAY_5D_1_.pdf.html) . Just click "Download document".

FWIW, I went over my layout again, and I can't see any errors. I compared to both the schematic, and the PCB, and everything jives. The fact that Jimi's not getting 4.7v after the Zener worries me though. Especially just before R17. That resistor is right on the rail, at the top, and there is not much before it that could be draining voltage. Maybe a solder bridge to one of the 1N4148's? That, or the pot, although I would really be amazed that it's the pot, but maybe.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 17, 2011, 03:42:36 PM
gonna try and replace that zener...wondering if when i hooked up the original circuit if the sweep at the end of the pot pulled too much current, and roasted that?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on September 17, 2011, 06:26:53 PM
I have a PCB layout of the Vocalizer as well, and it's not the case. It's here;

Yep, fair enough.



Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 18, 2011, 12:36:09 AM
checked that diode...4 v on one side, zero on the other. at least part of the problem is that god forsaken conductive plastic pot. it's hosed and intermittent. can only heat 'em up so much i guess.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on September 18, 2011, 03:48:12 AM
Hey Jimi, before you go pulling that zener out, it might be worth checking the voltage across it with the IC's pulled out, and also make sure R6 is 2K2 (red/red/red) and not 22K (red/red/orange)...
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 18, 2011, 08:22:38 AM
Hey Jimi, before you go pulling that zener out, it might be worth checking the voltage across it with the IC's pulled out, and also make sure R6 is 2K2 (red/red/red) and not 22K (red/red/orange)...

Good catch Ronan. Or maybe the 3080 is toast, and sucking some to ground? R6 is right at the 9v supply pin, so maybe it could go either way. Pull the 3080, and check the voltages at the zener again. I can't see an IC sucking almost 1v on it's own.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 18, 2011, 12:16:25 PM
all the resistors are 1% precision. the zener is working. the prob seems to be the pot.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 21, 2011, 04:15:50 PM
ok, so i checked the pot...it's not exactly close in terms of tolerance between the sides, one side reads about 25k and the other about 20. but both sides work well linearly when swept. so i wired up a dual 100k linear pot i had kicking around, and am now sure i was wrong...and it's probably the chip, as now it barely wahs no matter how wired or hooked up, and when it does, it doesn't react to the treadle, it just kinda sweeps then decays.

ordered new chips. when they come in, i'll try again bro.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 30, 2011, 02:30:22 PM
Well, I finally got a little work space set up. Of course, Murphy's Law dictates that now that I'm set up, the house will sell, and I'll have to tear it all down and move it again. But, I digress...

I breadboarded the circuit, as per the schematic. Guitar to the circuit, circuit to the amp. Fuzz knob maxed. Here's a video of the first test (sorry for the crappy sound, it's a crappy camera :icon_rolleyes:);



It get's a decent YOY going one way, and a faint bit of a OOH WAA coming back. Yet, I don't seem to have a huge hump in the middle. From heel to toe, it seems to go from bass to treble, like a normal wah, except there is a distinct YOY in the middle. I played around with different cap values as well around the quad opamp, but the stated values seem to give the best YOY. I tried swapping out the 220/680 220/680pF set up, for a 1.5nF like the Dipthonizer, but I lost a lot of top end. Enough to lose the YOY. I just realized that on the vero, those caps are listed as "nF", it should be "pF". It will be corrected. Could be what's screwing you up Jimi. SAAAAAWWWWWEEEEEEEE  :icon_redface: :icon_redface: :icon_redface:

I'll need to update the vero insofar as the tranny is concerned. It should be a silicon PNP. I tested 2N3906, 2N5087, 2N2904A, 2N2905A and 2N2907A. What you hear is the 2N3906. Actually, to my ears, the 3906 and 5087 sounded the best insofar as the sweep is concerned. R.G. was right, silicon diodes, require a silicon transistor. That allows the 3080 to do it's thing properly.

I might incorporate a 3 or 4 position switch for the voicing caps on mine. I'm going to audition some more combinations, and then pair them up to get different tones. Might prove interesting.

Here are the corrected veros;

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/ColorsoundVocalizerCOMPLETE_corrected.jpg)

and with alternate IC's

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/ColorsoundVocalizerALT_IC_corrected.jpg)

My apologies again on the cap goof.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 30, 2011, 03:04:10 PM
dino, is that with the treadle pot wired as per schem?

more important, quick-like, which caps need to be swapped specifically?

great work bro
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 30, 2011, 08:17:23 PM
Yup, wired as per the schem. How the tone of the wah goes (heel to toe) will determine whether the white wire will be on pole 1 or 3. If the wah is backwards, just move the white wire to the opposite pole. The other side of the pot is as the schem.

As for the caps, here is what we talked about. With the 4 caps, it looks like this;

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/4caps.jpg)

If you go with the two 820pF's or 1nF's, then it should look like this;

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/2caps.jpg)

The magic happens right in here, between 800pF and 1nF. That's why the original runs 2 caps in parallel to achieve 900pF.

Sorry again for the aggravation with the mislabeled caps. You'll see, BIG MUCHO difference... with the right caps  :icon_redface:.

Also, the 3K resistor listed (near the tranny), should be 3K. It's an oddball size, but they're available. I tried sub'ing a 2.7 and a 3.3, but it didn't work right. For the test, I strung two 1.5's together. The 3K is on order. Tranny I'm going with is a 2N3906. That's what's in there in the video.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 30, 2011, 08:45:15 PM
done and working....


we have achieved YOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 30, 2011, 08:53:41 PM
Kewl!!  :icon_mrgreen:

I just looked around for 900pF caps. They're available in Silver Mica. The cheapest I found them was 1.29$ each, from Just Radios, here in Canada. Problem is, silver mica's big, and take up a lot of space. So, I'm going to stick with my tiny ole ceramics. I'm going to test different caps too. If I can make a voicing selector, I'm going for it. I have a 4 position switch kicking around.

I'm putting this sucker together this week. Yeah baby!! Back in the saddle again!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 30, 2011, 09:03:05 PM
i'm annoying the whole neighborhood as i type.

this thing is freekin SWEET!!!  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on September 30, 2011, 09:14:06 PM
We need another "Stupid Guitar Tricks" installment!!! :icon_mrgreen:

I just had a freakin' idea...

I wonder if I could adapt the LFO from the Uglyface to this. I'm looking at the drawings, but it's not jumping out at me. Then you could have 2 modes, normal YOY wah, or the LFO YOY'ing, while you sweep the frequencies with the pedal.

DAMN, I wish I was smarter....
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on September 30, 2011, 11:20:35 PM
i like the way your mind works. another installment of stupid pedal tricks is forthcoming.

all ya gotta do is connect the output of the lfo to the  filter's inputs. time to ask rg i think!!

it could be really sweet like that!!!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on October 01, 2011, 10:29:55 PM
Hey bro, try this for a bit more hair on the fuzz.

Change R9 (1M), for a 2.7M resistor. Boosts the gain of the fuzz more. Lots more. That's the set up in the Dipthonizer. If it's too bright, add a 100 to 220 pF cap parallel with the resistor. Be careful with the cap though, it will impact on the YOY.

Disconnect D6. Leave D5 in. Actually, if you go with just one clipping diode, I noticed that it clips more one way than the other. It's fuzzier with the cathode (black band) on pin 3 of the opamp, and less flipped around. Actually, with the cathode on pin 3, and no diode at all, there is only a tiny difference. Then again, it's hard for me to tell, because my small crapbox practice amp breaks up when you just look at it hard  :icon_mrgreen: Try it with one diode, and flip it around, you'll hear a big difference. Personally, I'm a big asymetrical clip fan.

Or, remove both diodes, and use a 2N7000 mosfet. Can sounds really mellow. Tie the center leg (gate) to the drain. Put it in place of the diodes, across pins 1 and 3. Like the one diode, try it both ways. It clips a bit more one way than the other.

It will be crunchier though. Crunchy enough that you might think about adding a volume control where the 330 ohm resistor (R22) is (was?).
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: phector2004 on October 02, 2011, 12:26:16 AM
Sick! That sounds awesome!

And the list gets bigger...
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on October 02, 2011, 10:11:46 AM
hey dino,
that sounds hip...but i think i'm gonna leave it stock, other than eventually changing them 1n's to 900pf's. the fuzz in this thing now works great, and isn't at all subtle!

the output resistor i replaced a long time ago with a 500r trimmer...i just leave it cranked.

but the mods you've found sound hip, and possibly should be added to the layout as mods, some could be made switchable even!!

great work bro...i hope to have some clips up of mine soon! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: deadastronaut on October 02, 2011, 06:01:22 PM
We need another "Stupid Guitar Tricks" installment!!! :icon_mrgreen:

I just had a freakin' idea...

I wonder if I could adapt the LFO from the Uglyface to this. I'm looking at the drawings, but it's not jumping out at me. Then you could have 2 modes, normal YOY wah, or the LFO YOY'ing, while you sweep the frequencies with the pedal.

DAMN, I wish I was smarter....

yep!, that's  what i did with my lightwah, i used a ' phozer' lfo,from runoffgroove (tiny mod on it to get a nice smooth slow sweep too)

rig up an lfo with led pulsing from dim to bright into an ldr which is in place of your pot....and/or switch between both!..sorted!.. :icon_cool:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on October 02, 2011, 08:42:38 PM
Rob... that's totally ironic!!! I just printed the Phozer project yesterday! I have some vactrols kicking around, and that LFO seems to be right for intregration into this. At first I was thinking Uglyface, but it's structure isn't right. Phozer seems to be very good though. I'm just trying to figure out how to make the LFO and the pedal interact. I thought maybe using the pedal to control the speed when in LFO mode, or to have a speed knob, and keep the pedal for sweeping the frequencies, a la Ludwig Phase II.

It's just that I'm still too nooby, and I'm still trying to put the pieces together. I tell you though, I'm so glad I invested in a breadboard! Tons o fun!!

Any input you may have would be welcome. Like I like to say, I love going to bed at night less stooopid  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: deadastronaut on October 02, 2011, 09:16:20 PM
yeah breadboard is the way to go..always!...don't worry, i'm still a noob too...lots to learn...but great noisey fun on the way too.. :icon_wink:

so you want both lfo and treadle on at the same time...hmmmm...could be interesting...

heres the lfo i used, it works great...i used 2 superbright led's, coz i wanted a speed indicator on the enclosure too...which could be on your wah case...breadboard it and try it in place of your treadle pot for now
just to see/hear how it goes...just connect an ldr/vactrol to pot lugs 3 -2 wires i guess....should be ok.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7464107/LFOBITCH.jpg

tlo72
2n3904.... ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Keeb on October 03, 2011, 09:44:00 AM
I just want to let you guys know that I'm thoroughly impressed by what you have done with this project.
Although my part in all this is minimal (you guys would have found the schematic anyways) it makes me happy to see the DIY spirit and collaboration put in to this.

Keep it up!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on October 04, 2011, 09:37:30 AM
got two 910p caps yesterday, put them in to replace the 1n ones...it's ALL good!! gonna go shoot a demo clip.

i'm thinking two rotary switches with different cap values. that way you could choose which vowels you want to juxtapose.

add the lfo in to auto sweep, and let the treadle control either the lfo time or the tracking of the pedal things could get really sick.

;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on October 04, 2011, 11:12:23 AM
 


more stupid pedal tricks for your perusal. the vocalizer sounds much better louder than in this, but i didn't wanna distort the audio or wake my roomates. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on October 04, 2011, 12:33:33 PM
Well, I screwed around with a Vactrol on this sucker, but I came to the realization that I'm trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Considering that I have a Stereo Panneur (among a cornecopia of other trems) at my disposal, I decided to abandon the LFO idea. I tried injecting the LFO on the side going to ground, while leaving the side controling the 3080 manual, but all that gave me was a tremulating, sort of manually auto-wah... without the YOY :icon_frown:. I guess it's critical that the trajectories align not only at the right frequencies, but at the same moment, which is accomplished by the pedals dual pot. It dawned on me that this must be why they made a Dipthonizer, and a Vocalizer, but no combo of the two. Even the Dipthonizer, with it's multiple vocals, is set at fixed settings.

Which leads me to respect my Ludwigs even more. I wish I knew how they managed to allow you to sweep in and out of the YOY frequencies, on the fly, WITH oscillation!!. Then again, do a parts count of the Vocalizer, or the Dipthonizer for that matter, and compare it to the Ludwig. My handle ain't R.G., but I figure there must be some big time s**t goin' down in dare! So, if you want simple, build this, or a Dipthonizer. You want fancy? Build a Phase II. Don't waste you're time.

Anywho, I poured over R.G.'s wah and the human voice article in my spare time (at work... again!), and decided to just see if I could refine the YOY some what, by mixing different cap values on either side of the 4138. This one has promise. I found that you don't have to change both caps on one side of the 4136 to get subtle differences. So far, I've found that swapping one of the 4n7's for a 5n6, and one of the 680pF's for a 470pF, stretches the frequencies at either end just a tad more. I get a more pronounced YOY, deeper O, and higher Y (or I). As R.G. states in his article, the fact that the best frequencies can fall between cap values, and the wide tolerances that can be found at times, you may have to mix and match your caps to taste. I'm using el mucho cheapo ceramic caps in this case, so needless to say, I'm playing with a 20% tolerance here. So far, I've tried a bunch of different values, including different materials as well (ceramic, poly's, mica), and found it sounds best (for me) with the spec'd caps in ceramic. They have a tad more edge in the higher frequencies, sounding brighter than the chicklet's or mica's, which is fine by me. Bonus is, they also take up a hell of a lot less space on my layout  :icon_mrgreen:. I guess if you really want to be anal about it, you could build in a selector switch, to flip between caps if ever you're teaming this pedal up with a fuzz box, i.e. bright fuzz, darker caps, or vice versa. I dunno, whatever blows your skirt up I guess.

As for the PNP silicon transistor, I tried some different ones here as well. I was just curious to see if the gain of a particular transistor would impact on the workings. I went with 2N2904A, 2N2906A, 2N3907A, 2N3906, and 2N5087. The gains were 55, 140, 160, 280, and 400 respectively. None of then made a lick of difference to my ears. They all do the switching job perfectly well, so you could go with whatever is on special...

but...

The germanium question still nagged me. So I yanked out what i had on hand, and gave them a whirl. An AC128, oh my...an 2SB172, and a friendly looking Russian MP20B over there in the corner. Well, I was surprised. Not a HUGE difference, but a difference between between them, and their silicon brethren nonetheless. Don't get me wrong, they do the job, but I noticed one thing that seperated them in particular. From the full toe down position, coming back towards the heel, the first 15 - 20 degrees of the pot rotation, the germaniums are quieter. By quieter, I mean they don't dig back down into the deeper frequencies like the silicons. The way I heard this was by NOT playing the guitar, cranking the amp, and sweeping the pot. At the toe end, coming back about 20 degrees quickly, you get an OOH AAA sound in the background. With the silicons, the OOH is deeper, and much more pronounced than with the germaniums. The "knee" between the OOH and the AA is also gentler with the germaniums, and harder with the silicons. As a matter of fact the OOH always seems to be under the surface of the YOY with the silicons, throughout the sweep. So the germaniums produce more of a cleaner YYOOOOYY through the entire sweep, whilst the silicons it's more of a YYOOOOYYAW, with the YAW always hanging around, like a brother-in-law without a job. It's subtle mind you, but it's there. I'm guessing that the different forward voltages between the two, causes the 3080 to vary the resistance slightly differently, pushing the 4n7's side of the 4138 differently. I don't think leakage will play a role here where the germanium is concerned, so I guess any germanium tranny that didn't make it through fuzz school will do. This might be somewhere else one could go either way, depending on ones taste, er... ears. My advice, socket the suckers, and go with what works in your set up.

DO NOT bother with Ge diodes for the network going to the 4.7 volts. You're not getting enough voltage at the end of that chain, and it just about kills the YOY factor. Needs silicon here. I used 1N4148's. I tried 1N914's as well, no difference. As for the clipping diodes, that's a toss up, but mind you, silicons do give a more focused YOY than germaniums when you dial up the fuzz. Just my 2 bits. If you're going to drive it with another fuzz, well, all bets are off.

And there you have it. Along with another fabulous installment of "Stupid Guitar Tricks" from my bro Jimi, I'm calling this mother VERIFIED. Thank you brother for being the guinea pig, and enduring me on this one. You've got a heart the size of a bus!

I'll be making the above annotations on the vero in the gallery. As for the "Alternate I.C." vero, I don't feel like trying it, so it will remain unverified until someone tells me otherwise.

Enjoy,
Dino

Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: deadastronaut on October 04, 2011, 12:53:24 PM
fair enough on the lfo.. ;)!..... nice one dino+jimi...

i know a lot of time n thought n testing goes with this shit...i respect that a lot...as i'm a dumbass mostly... ;D

sounds cool as is... :icon_cool:

Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on October 04, 2011, 01:07:58 PM
it's funny, it's tempermental with amps...some love it, some not so much. i may try to mess with the caps some day, but not for now...this does what it does, the ludwig does it too, so screw it...the important thing is another one's back from the grave...awesome work, my brother!!

great build peeps...make your favorite guitar go yoy!! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on October 04, 2011, 01:25:13 PM
OK, here's another video, this time with the Ge tranny. Apart from the fact that I managed to get a bit better sound out of my camera, you'll hear a much better definition of the YOY. I even manage to get a WOAH WOAH in the clean setting! WICKED COOOOLLLLLLLL!!!!!!



That's with the 2SB172. I do believe I'm going to box it like this, and then see if it'll play nice with some other dirt/fuzz boxes  :icon_twisted:.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on October 04, 2011, 01:39:11 PM
awesome bro...gonna go play with mine, yours yoy's a LOT better than mine does!!!!

sounds great, yeah, guess it's verified!!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on October 05, 2011, 05:00:59 AM
Very nice guys, glad to see you got it sorted. Great job, very good! And thanks for the clips too.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on October 05, 2011, 10:25:57 AM
i played with the treadle a little bit but mine does a bit more of an aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeeeeiiiii sound than an ooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeiiiii

if ya play with it once in the pedal, you'll see it doesn't accomodate quite the full pot sweep...so ya lose a little at one end or the other. but if ya find the sweet spot, you get a couple formants...3 in fact, whether  a, e or i or  o e i. 

cool toy. thinking rotary switch with some specific cap values could give choice of formant. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on October 05, 2011, 01:03:21 PM
I'm loading mine into a Crybaby, and looking at the travel compared to my tests, I think it's alright to lose the top end. By the time you get up there, all the fun's been had. Nothing left to do but hit the bypass switch.

I don't think that changing caps will give you different vowels. From my noob understanding of things, the problem is not only frequency (caps), but trajectory (pot) as well. The frequencies have to hit each other at the right time. As is, the 22K dual linear provides the proper trajectory to each side, so that they collide at the right moment to give you a vowel sound. You can change caps, but then you have to change the trajectory as well, so as the new frequencies can hit at the right moment. I think that's why EH had their dual pots cutom made for the Talking Pedal. A 7K on one side, and an 11K with a ground tap somewhere along the travel. I don't know if that tap was at the center, but it wouldn't surprise me if it isn't. THAT... would be too easy.

You could use LDR's instead of the dual pot though. That work around already exists as a replacement for the unobtainium EH pot. Maybe a rotary switch, using one side for the cap selection, and the other side to change the rate on the LDR's (taper)? Sounds like voodoo to me. I'm sticking to the KISS principle on this one.

That's the way I see it. If I'm wrong, then I'll gladly accept a correction. Life's too short to be stubborn or stupid. I tried different caps, as per R.G. article, but I never got any other vowel sounds. Hence, I believe that the angles set in this puppy are for YOY, including a bit of WOAH on the low end clean. I find on mine that it's best to max the rotation on the heel end of things, I get the best YOY starting from there. Like you say, jump a tooth, or cant the pot a bit, and Bob's your uncle.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on October 05, 2011, 04:24:44 PM
OK, it's boxed. i used a 2.7M resistor on the fuzz side, instead of a 1M, for more fuzz gain. I went for the MP20B, instead of the 2SB172 since I have a ton of them. Gonna keep the 172 for something special. Here's some pics;

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/PICT0098.jpg)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/PICT0099.jpg)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/PICT0101.jpg)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/PICT0100.jpg)

and a video of the final product;



Just some detail work left, clean up some soldering, proper stand-offs, goop the tranny and IC's, and what not, but that's it. I might change the dual pot for something more robust in the future. I'm going to explore this avenue, including maybe using a higher value dually, and bringing it down via resistors. I might really be able to dial it in even better that way. I think I'll put a 1K trimmer in place of the 330ohm as well. I didn't install the 330ohm, but it might come in handy if I have to dial it back a touch. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on October 05, 2011, 07:49:39 PM
THAT SOUNDS FREAKIN KILLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on October 07, 2011, 06:13:57 PM
FINALLY my 3080's came in.

definitely outshines the nte replacement, nte 996.

went thru 3 of the 10 chips, number three was the magic number.

oeoeoeoeoeoeoeoeoe with a hint of waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

can almost do the flying monkeys song from the wizard of oz...oEo....O o


i think it's good...if i get motivated a little, try and post an audio clip.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on October 07, 2011, 06:45:51 PM
EXCELLENT!!

I really got a kick out of this project  :icon_twisted:

I'm reworking the Ludwigs right now, but I'm torn between the Mr. Multi, or Keio Traveller right now. Guess i'll have to flip for it  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on October 07, 2011, 09:10:59 PM
well, the mr multi is muscal and useful, AND i got one for ref... just sayin'   :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on October 11, 2011, 11:58:47 AM
Wow! This sounds great! Reminds me of a talkbox. Guessing thats what it might be based off. Will there be a pcb soon? Great work guys!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on October 11, 2011, 12:04:38 PM
heh heh....do a search for ludwig phase II   :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on October 11, 2011, 01:55:29 PM
sorry for the distortion, the soundcard in this laptop really blows.

here's the final:

Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on October 11, 2011, 09:43:24 PM
YEAH BABY!!! NOW DAT'S WHAT I BE VOCALIZING ABOUT  :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: Great job bro.

Quote
Wow! This sounds great! Reminds me of a talkbox. Guessing thats what it might be based off. Will there be a pcb soon? Great work guys!

PCB already exists on the net dude, do a search, you should find it pretty easily. That's what I based my vero on. Besides, I stick to vero, since I'm not equipped to do PCB's.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on October 11, 2011, 10:29:21 PM
dude...we need to start learning to etch sh%t!!!
;)

thought you'd get a kick outta that...man, you should hear it with a touch of anchovie's one chip chorus set up as a doubler after it...

freeeeekin' sick!!!!!   :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on October 12, 2011, 03:31:00 AM
heh heh....do a search for ludwig phase II   :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
I've checked it too and sounds pretty cool but I still find that the vocalizer stands on its own. Great vids by the way :icon_mrgreen:

YEAH BABY!!! NOW DAT'S WHAT I BE VOCALIZING ABOUT  :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: Great job bro.

Quote
Wow! This sounds great! Reminds me of a talkbox. Guessing that's what it might be based off. Will there be a pcb soon? Great work guys!

PCB already exists on the net dude, do a search, you should find it pretty easily. That's what I based my vero on. Besides, I stick to vero, since I'm not equipped to do PCB's.
I googled searched and didn't find much but I remembered most people who post things here probably post stuff on freestompbox.com. Sure enough, I found a layout for a pcb. When I get time. I want to give this a try. I think what's really cool about this project is its not your standard vox or crybaby type wah sound. I could have fun with this. Thanks.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on November 01, 2011, 11:54:00 AM
Ok! I went ahead and made pcb from a layout I found at (FST), I later found it on this forum as well and got it all wired up and it worked, But it sounds like a blown amp. The fuzz sounds really crappy and gated sounding. I'm using the same green plastic pot that everyone else seems to be using. I check everything that might be wrong, resistors, caps and wiring. Even solder bridges. Everything looks good but not sounding good. I think its something with the input. I touched the pcb just pass the first 100nf cap and it seemed to clean up nicely but got distorted again. I'm using a 1N4732A diode instead of the 1n750a. They both read 4.7 and a silicon pnp transistor, low gain. I'll try to post pics soon. Any ideas anyone.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on November 01, 2011, 12:36:17 PM
Hope this helps.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6237/6303016884_9bfa7bd07e_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6043/6302492729_7abe57ed73_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6036/6302493689_e3e00b915d_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6042/6303019916_40ce72dd6a_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on November 01, 2011, 02:22:18 PM
the caps that should add up to 900n SHOULD be 900 PICOFARAD, off by that great a factor, all you get is horrible blatty distortion...had the same prob, it's mismarked on the schem. once ya replace them caps, you'll be good...you're  off by a factor of 1000 now, so it can't get formants and sounds like sh^t, no doubt.

good luck!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on November 01, 2011, 03:06:31 PM
the caps that should add up to 900n SHOULD be 900 PICOFARAD, off by that great a factor, all you get is horrible blatty distortion...had the same prob, it's mismarked on the schem. once ya replace them caps, you'll be good...you're  off by a factor of 1000 now, so it can't get formants and sounds like sh^t, no doubt.

good luck!
Do you mean replace the 680pf's or the 220pf's on the board. Thats the only picofarads on the board. Thanks
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on November 01, 2011, 03:19:33 PM
if you already have 680 and 220 pf's than that's not the problem...they're there to add up to 1 900pf cap for each side of the filter. on the vero, was marked nano, no pf...so the first build was way off and didn't work, tho it did pass signal with a pretty horrible distortion. changing it to the intended pf caps there made a world of diff, tho i used a pair of 910pf's instead cuz they had 'em at the store.
i'm outta electricity down here, so can't help much, but read the debugging thread and post back with voltages etc and we'll no doubt have ya right as rain in no time.
;)

looking at it tho, i can't tell...but it looks to me like you may have the 3080 in backwards. check the polarity, every 3080 i've seen should have the printing going the other way, unless it's flipped on the pcb version from normal.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on November 01, 2011, 03:55:54 PM
Do not use a silicon tranny, it doesn't drive the 3080 well. Use any Ge switching tranny. Any cheap Ge switching tranny will do. Ge provides a much nicer sweep through the 3080. It has nothing to do with the gain of the tranny, it's not in the audio path. Silicon works, but...

You should have a 220pF and a 680pF cap in parallel, to give you 900pF, NOT nF. Or like Jimi, single 910's will do as well. Pico farad. 4.7nF on the other side.

Your electros aren't really blowin' my skirt up tho'. Those long leads, I believe, just act as antenae for RF. Component leads should be as short as possible. Less mechanical stress, and less prone to pick up stuff you don't want to be hearing. Double check the orientation of your electros as well. Your IC's look OK to me, as per the original.

CHECK ALL YOUR GROUNDS!!! Mine started out kind of fartty on the breadboard, until I realized that one of my jack grounds wasn't tied to the rest. Make sure all your grounds go back to your power source, and not just to (or through) the body. As per the original, even the fuzz pot body is solder gounded to the PCB. The pedal pot being plastic doesn't hurt anything, mine works great.

Finally, ensure that your solder side is not touching the casing anywhere. I can't see how you've mounted your board, so it's worring me.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on November 01, 2011, 05:34:31 PM
check the black wires near the red wire near that circular trace on the pcb...just to the left of the black wire, it looks like a break in the trace, or a scratch thru it. make sure you have continuity there. post on fsb too, boris can probably help ya out.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on November 02, 2011, 12:56:16 PM
Thanks for the replies guys. First off, All the traces are good and all grounds are covered. Even the ground on the fuzz pot. :icon_wink: I went ahead and replaced all the standing 2.2uf caps with standered 2.2uf caps. The 100uf was replaced as well. I have to ask but what caps I,m I replacing? I,m I replacing the 681pf's with 900pf's or I'm I replacing one or both of the 472nf caps or one of the four 104nf caps? I replaced the two 681pfs for 900pfs and it sounded less distorted but still distorted.
As far as transistors, All I have is silicon transistors. No Germanium. I did buy some Ge MP20B today from ebay so hopfully It will help get rid of the distortion in the signal path.
I cant give readings right now because my muitie meter took a crap today. I think it needs new batteries :icon_neutral: I guess I'll have to wait until I get some parts in and mess with it again later. I'll post as soon as I get parts in. Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on November 02, 2011, 01:40:12 PM
Here, I have this;

(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=46532&g2_serialNumber=2)

Quote
I have to ask but what caps I,m I replacing? I,m I replacing the 681pf's with 900pf's or I'm I replacing one or both of the 472nf caps or one of the four 104nf caps? I replaced the two 681pfs for 900pfs and it sounded less distorted but still distorted.

Maybe it will help. You can see in the lower right, the 680 and 220 pF's. You should have two 680pF's, and two 220pF's. If you decide to go with 910pF's, then you should ONLY have two 910pF's, both in place of the 220's OR 680's. The remaining two spots can stay empty. The 4n7 means 4.7nF (code 472), NOT 472nF.

The MP20B will be fine, that's what I'm using in mine. Works great.

Hope this helps,
Dino
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on November 02, 2011, 01:42:20 PM
@digi2t
I was looking at the way you have your pot wired and noticed that you have a green wire connected to the gray wire. Is the green wire going to ground?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on November 02, 2011, 02:23:20 PM
@digi2t
I was looking at the way you have your pot wired and noticed that you have a green wire connected to the gray wire. Is the green wire going to ground?

Yes sir. It's there because I forgot a jumper on my vero, so I cheated  :icon_redface:. I just didn't feel like pulling the board out.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on November 02, 2011, 04:08:21 PM
@digi2t
I was looking at the way you have your pot wired and noticed that you have a green wire connected to the gray wire. Is the green wire going to ground?

Yes sir. It's there because I forgot a jumper on my vero, so I cheated  :icon_redface:. I just didn't feel like pulling the board out.
Ok. I should be good then. Thanks for showing me what you where talking about the 220/680 combo. It looks like I had it right the first time.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on November 19, 2011, 10:56:23 AM
Well I got the MP20B transisters in and the pedal still sounds the same :icon_confused:. After reading thru some pages back. I notice Jimi had the same problems as I did but still cant figure it out. I did get reading from the diode. 4.01 before and 0.00 after the diode. I'll try and get more but have to go to bed.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on November 19, 2011, 11:09:36 AM
hi pauly,
in mine, i'm having the same problems you describe again intermittently.
i've ordered another one of them horrid green pots, as it seems to only f up during a sweep with the wah pedal.

what i found is that the ca3080e chips, and the 4136n's are ALL over the place in this circuit..try different chips.

also, check the output resistor, i think it was 33k or something...in mine,  i took it out and replaced with a 50k trimmer so i could play with the output gain...sometimes messing with that resistor makes a difference...if the resistor is too big, you'll get a horrible blatty distortion.

the one transistor needs to be ge, and leaky is fine...in mine, i found polarity of this resistor didn't really matter...how's that for messed up?
but...

it doesn't sound right with silicon tranny. i think it's the leakage that makes it work.

last thing you may wanna try, if you did dino's mod to get more fuzz, try puttin it stock...mine i did dino's mod to, but it makes the fuzz sound horrible and gnarly thru solid state amps, tubes seem to be more forgiving...the fuzz should be kinda subtle, or it can dominate the formant effect in my opinion.

don't get me wrong..the higher gain sounds great thru some of my amps. seems to be a very moody pedal.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on November 19, 2011, 11:36:46 AM
Quote
4.01 before and 0.00 after the diode.

That sounds right. GND on one side, and voltage on the other. One thing I found though, not all zeners are created equal. That was made clear to me when I did the Mr. Multi. If the 1N750A is giving you 4.0v, try a BZX55C5V1 (5.1v) zener instead. It may get you closer to 4.7. In the Mr. Multi, I ended up having to use a 1N5229B (4.3v) zener, to get close to the 3.5v required by the circuit. You just have to work around the loss of voltage, up upping the zener.

As for the 3080, mine worked out of the gate, and with any of the 3 chips that I bought. Same for the 4136. BUT.... I could have had a horse shoe up my ass here. There's been lots of talk about bogus 3080 chips floating around. Keep an open mind here.

Quote
also, check the output resistor, i think it was 33k or something...in mine,  i took it out and replaced with a 50k trimmer so i could play with the output gain

DAMN, I forgot about that 330 ohm resistor. Take that out, and stick in a jumper. It seems to kill a lot of the output of the pedal. Sorry, I should have spotted that earlier. Jimi and I already went through that dilemma. I jumpered mine, Jimi uses a pot. Whatever blows your skirt up, but ditch it.





Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on November 19, 2011, 03:44:38 PM
what i found with mine tho is without that 330 ohm resistor, the output is a little too hot.

i'm gonna re-solder it and see what happens when the new pot comes in.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on November 19, 2011, 07:11:04 PM
Thanks for your replies guys. I just happen to have Extra chips and pots (one of each). I give that a try. I have the 330 ohm on a trim pot but I'll see about jumping it and see what I get.
I tired afew different zener diodes and notice they can be off but I bought some 1n750a diodes for the hell of it and see if it will help. I have some other 4.7vs in there right now. I'll try others when I have more time.
I was just wondering, I read some where in the topic that the new 4136 chips might have a different pin out from the old ones. Is that true? Thanks
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on November 19, 2011, 07:35:48 PM
all the 4136's i've encountered seem to be the same bro...but i'm the wrong guy to ask!! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on December 01, 2011, 03:19:02 AM
Well I think I have to give up :icon_cry: I replaced just about everything on my board still get the same results. The only thing it might be is the chips are bad of the layout its self is bad. I just cant seem to get it to work right. I put it to the side for now and maybe one day I'll revisit it. I did notice one thing. When I unplug the power and put it back in, The pedal sounds clean and undistorted but after 5sec it starts to distort again. :icon_question: Well thanks for your help guys. Its been fun :icon_wink:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on December 01, 2011, 07:54:40 AM
I was looking at your picture again, and I was wondering, is that a bare ground wire connected to the underside of the board, or just the excess lead of the cap?. I'm talking about the 100uF cap (just above the zener), on the underside, it looks like a bare wire connected to the + side of the cap. What is that?

This really intrigues me. Jimi and I did ours on vero, and both worked well. I can't see why it shouldn't work on a PCB.

Man, I'd love to have that sucker on my table. It's almost personal now  :icon_lol:. 
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on December 01, 2011, 10:15:55 AM
hmmm....sounds a bit like mine's issues, too.

also sounds like a cap or gain problem..tough call.

gonna wait til my pot comes in, and i'll post what happens.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on December 01, 2011, 04:15:04 PM
If the overlay is correct, it looks like at least two of the electrolytic caps are in the wrong way around. Might be your problem.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on December 01, 2011, 05:14:20 PM
If the overlay is correct, it looks like at least two of the electrolytic caps are in the wrong way around. Might be your problem.

Holy crow Ro, really? Geez, I must be going blind. I did the split window thing with the two images this morning, and I didn't catch that. Which ones?  :icon_confused:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on December 01, 2011, 07:16:57 PM
No....I meant it looks like Paulyy's got a couple electro's in the wrong way around. The cap closest to pin8 of the CA3080, and the cap connected to pin 5 of the 4136. Using these images.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92202.msg814984#msg814984
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92202.msg815148#msg815148
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on December 01, 2011, 08:29:44 PM
Well heres some pics of the pcb right now. All electro caps have been changed.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7141/6439211725_b28d2caf8a_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7034/6439212747_b8d9bce367_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7005/6439213819_d2746770f1_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7004/6439215335_0da8651077_b.jpg)
Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on December 01, 2011, 09:46:24 PM
Caps are OK in that shot. Maybe you can cut the circuit in half to find out which bit isn't working. You can test the input stages by disconnecting the wire from the centre of the 10K clean/fuzz pot, attach a 100n or whatever size cap to the centre lug and run a wire from the new cap to the output jack. Then you should hear clean and overdriven guitar from it, depending on where you set the pot. It will be a boosted level however.


I did notice one thing. When I unplug the power and put it back in, The pedal sounds clean and undistorted but after 5sec it starts to distort again.

Is something causing too much current to flow I wonder? Anyway, good luck.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on December 02, 2011, 11:03:45 AM
Jimi bro,

You were spot on for the 330R resistor. Initially, without it, everything was hunky dory since I was using it alone. With other pedals, a pot here is critical here to set unity. I was getting an insane in/out volume difference with my Uglyface chained to it. A 1K pot is perfect here, better than the resistor IMO. You can then adjust to different pedals in the chain.

I think I'll add that note to the vero. Three thumbs up muchacho.

Cheers,
Dino
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on December 21, 2011, 09:18:11 AM
hey dino, i re-visited this pedal last night to try and figure out wtf was wrong with it...

went back to the 330r  for r22...somewhat of a boost when kicked in, but not so much as it was with the 500r trimmer.

found two problems..

first off, the dang dpdt switch, which i recycled from the original dunlop wah this thing was, was messed up. sometimes, it worked..sometimes it bypassed the effect, but then wouldn't pass signal; sometimes it was only switching partially. very weird. swapped it out for a known good one, now that part is buttoned up.

it works ok now, but i have to "tune" the wah pot a little higher than i want..the post on that double ganged 22k pot where the white wire attaches is messed up a little, if i mess with it, it's a whole different story as to the yoy...

still waiting for that freekin' pot to arrive from across the pond. i think when i replace it, that will cure the problem.

so, as it stands, it's a cool wah more than a formant...weird!!

when the last part comes back in, i'll post the results...it's ionly been like 2 months now i've been waiting....arrrrgh...
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on December 21, 2011, 12:38:05 PM
Hey bro. As far as tuning the sweep goes, I had to play with mine on a couple of different levels. 1) The angle of the pot. 2) The thickness of the rubber bumpers on the toe side of the pedal, and 3) the thickness of the bumpers on the heel side.

I ended up buying a bunch of Dunlop bumpers, and gently shaving them down to where I could get the max sweep, with out clacking the metal casing, or inadvertently tripping the switch. I guess the Colorsounds had a tad more mechanical sweep than the Dunlops. Albeit that some Colorsounds actually had a linkage setup to turn the pot, instead of rac and pinions.

As for the pot, once I got the angle just right, I shot hot glue into the gusset, on both sides of the threaded collar of the pot, to freeze it in place.

You know, you could put a small mode switch on it, to enable/disable the formant side. Sort of a "Vowel/Wah" mode switch, that kills, or enables one side of the pot. 2 birds, one rock, dinner for two  :icon_mrgreen:.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on December 21, 2011, 12:45:57 PM
lol...well, FIRST, i just wanna get it to work RIGHT, ya know?
lol

 :icon_mrgreen:

hopefully some day soon the gosh dang pot will come in...shoulda been here by now!!!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on December 21, 2011, 12:53:04 PM
lol...well, FIRST, i just wanna get it to work RIGHT, ya know?
lol

 :icon_mrgreen:

hopefully some day soon the gosh dang pot will come in...shoulda been here by now!!!

If you needed a 22k pot. I have an extra one you can have. I cant seem to get mine to work anyways.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on December 21, 2011, 01:01:44 PM
hmmmmm....thanks for the kind offer, pauly, but i'd rather see you get yours running!!!

maybe try the vero version rather than the pcb...i know on the other forum boris had supplied the layout and all for the pcb, but i bet there's mistakes on it.

that said, if it's one of them damned conductive plastic 22k stacked pots, i have a feeling once they get heated a couple times, they are spent.

mine worked reasonably well til i re-wired it a couple times...i'm gonna try hitting the suspect pin with some heat and downward pressure to see if i can make the intermittent part stop.

now if the damn thing would show up from freakin' england....lol...i'll put it in, solder once and be DONE with it!!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on December 21, 2011, 01:23:38 PM
Lol! Id like to see mine running to. I never tried vero but maybe I'll give it a shot. I just hate to start all over again :icon_neutral:.
As far as the pcb goes. It seems correct but I could be wrong. I need to post some of my issues on the other forum to see if Boris could help but for the time being. It just sits in the corner of my work bench staring and laughing at me.
I haven't had any issues with the 22k pots yet. They seem ok. I try not to mess with them to much.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on December 21, 2011, 01:29:58 PM
mine was ok til i re-wired it for boris a couple times...they don't like heat!!!!

since i'm generally and genuinely sick of waiting, what do ya want for one of the pots? i can maybe paypal ya something?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on December 21, 2011, 01:35:24 PM
No worrys. You can Have the pot. I have two sitting around any ways. Just PM me your address and call it good.
This way when you get your other pot you'll have an extra one in case you over heat this one.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on December 21, 2011, 01:40:57 PM
thanks paulyy!!

pm being sent as soon as i post this.

yah, maybe boris can help...i know he was hot on building this pedal, too..but i dunno if the pcb was EVER right.

it's probably something stupid...usually is.

the one thing i DO know, is the vero version DOES work!
;)

thanks bud!!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on December 21, 2011, 03:05:36 PM
wouldn't ya know it....lol...

back in june or something, i ordered a ca3080e from ebay.

it never arrived.

wellp, to make a long story short, it arrived today via airmail....dated july 19, 2011


lol....wonder if i should try it, just for s-n-g's

it's different from the other ones, marked

CA3080E
ho223


gotta love "free, fast shipping from hong kong"...

i have a feeling i damn near coulda walked and picked it up there in 5 months time!! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on December 21, 2011, 04:16:52 PM
Hmmm... seems that storm you guys got was worse than advertised then :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on December 21, 2011, 04:22:24 PM
f*cked sh*t up all the way to china, bro...lol
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on December 29, 2011, 02:59:22 PM
ok,
thanks to paulyy (you rock bro)

i've replaced the pot, and it indeed DOES  now work....no glitches, no weirdness.

but just for sh*ts and giggles, i put the white wire on pot two on terminal 1 instead of 3...

and it sweeps the formants AGAINST each other...cross modulates, or whatever.

not as cool as the right way, but weirdly usable...so if anyone is so inclined, simply run the white wire to the center of a spdt switch, and term 1 and 3 to both poles for
yet another (imho) cool and useable sound!

i am psyched this thing is finally working right...beware of them cheezy plastic pots. if they get too hot, they WILL break down inside...they'll work, but be glitchy.

this thing's smooth as silk now.

peace, and happy new years!!!!!!!!!

;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on December 29, 2011, 03:00:47 PM
oh yah, the ca3080e that took 7 months to arrive?

i decided to try it...

and every pin was bent, and most snapped off.

way to go, chinese dude...
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: DavenPaget on December 29, 2011, 09:42:34 PM
oh yah, the ca3080e that took 7 months to arrive?

i decided to try it...

and every pin was bent, and most snapped off.

way to go, chinese dude...
Oh dear ... No wonder i have fear of ordering via ebay from HK
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on December 29, 2011, 10:02:22 PM
i've had a lotta GOOD luck in general, but this was lame, lame, lame.


(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/409018_2720190976880_1620235552_249.jpg)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on January 02, 2012, 04:43:49 AM
ok,
thanks to paulyy (you rock bro)

i've replaced the pot, and it indeed DOES  now work....no glitches, no weirdness.

but just for sh*ts and giggles, i put the white wire on pot two on terminal 1 instead of 3...

and it sweeps the formants AGAINST each other...cross modulates, or whatever.

not as cool as the right way, but weirdly usable...so if anyone is so inclined, simply run the white wire to the center of a spdt switch, and term 1 and 3 to both poles for
yet another (imho) cool and useable sound!

i am psyched this thing is finally working right...beware of them cheezy plastic pots. if they get too hot, they WILL break down inside...they'll work, but be glitchy.

this thing's smooth as silk now.

peace, and happy new years!!!!!!!!!

;)

Glad I could help. If I cant get mine to work. I might as well help some else with theres to work ;D
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on January 02, 2012, 09:37:26 AM
as soon as i cab afford another hard drive for the comp with the webcam, i'll up another installment of "stupid pedal tricks."

thanks again!! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on January 02, 2012, 12:08:40 PM
@ Jimi - It sucks about the chip, but I must admit, I haven't had a bad rap yet from the Hong Kong suppliers yet. I refuse to buy from China though. Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapour have been fine for me. I get the feeling that there must be bad blood between them and the Chinese, so they go the extra mile to keep their clients happy. I ordered a bunch of rotary switches from a Hong Kong supplier, from who I've ordered stuff in the past, but they arrived without the washers and nuts. I fired off an email, and they replied right away, and I had the washers and nut a week later.

I'll take a look at my purchases, and who I've bought from over there. I'll put together a list, and post it. Maybe we should start spreading the news about who is reliable, and who isn't. I don't think we should be throwing the baby out with the bath water, if we can just stick to reliable suppliers from over there. After all, if we take care of the pennies, then the dollars will take care of themselves.

@Paulyy -  Geez man! I've looked at that board you made, time and again. I just don't get why it doesn't work (scratching head with both hands). You've tried different chips too, right? I don't get it, everything seems kosher. I even used that board to verify my vero against, so I don't see it being the problem. I've even done side-by-side views of the yours vs. the original, and I don't see anything out of whack.

Just too weird man  :icon_rolleyes:.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: DavenPaget on January 02, 2012, 12:26:09 PM
@ Jimi - It sucks about the chip, but I must admit, I haven't had a bad rap yet from the Hong Kong suppliers yet. I refuse to buy from China though. Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapour have been fine for me. I get the feeling that there must be bad blood between them and the Chinese, so they go the extra mile to keep their clients happy. I ordered a bunch of rotary switches from a Hong Kong supplier, from who I've ordered stuff in the past, but they arrived without the washers and nuts. I fired off an email, and they replied right away, and I had the washers and nut a week later.

I'll take a look at my purchases, and who I've bought from over there. I'll put together a list, and post it. Maybe we should start spreading the news about who is reliable, and who isn't. I don't think we should be throwing the baby out with the bath water, if we can just stick to reliable suppliers from over there. After all, if we take care of the pennies, then the dollars will take care of themselves.

@Paulyy -  Geez man! I've looked at that board you made, time and again. I just don't get why it doesn't work (scratching head with both hands). You've tried different chips too, right? I don't get it, everything seems kosher. I even used that board to verify my vero against, so I don't see it being the problem. I've even done side-by-side views of the yours vs. the original, and I don't see anything out of whack.

Just too weird man  :icon_rolleyes:.
Singapore ? I didn't know people send things from here . Which shop is that ? I really want to get my hand on some CA3080E locally .
Taiwan had a long-standing feud with china , HK included . Taiwan had a long war with china too .
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on January 02, 2012, 12:33:24 PM
the chip came from hong kong, don't remember the vendor....
hang on, let me look...

i can probably mail ya one, daven, if ya wanna pm me your snail mail addie..

here's where i got the good ones, intersil 3080e's from a guy handled polida:

http://myworld.ebay.com/polida2008/&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2754

this is the one who took 7 months to send me a broken chip:

http://myworld.ebay.com/cwithk/&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2754

cwithk is his handle, and he's in hong kong
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on January 02, 2012, 03:06:56 PM
@ Jimi - It sucks about the chip, but I must admit, I haven't had a bad rap yet from the Hong Kong suppliers yet. I refuse to buy from China though. Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapour have been fine for me. I get the feeling that there must be bad blood between them and the Chinese, so they go the extra mile to keep their clients happy. I ordered a bunch of rotary switches from a Hong Kong supplier, from who I've ordered stuff in the past, but they arrived without the washers and nuts. I fired off an email, and they replied right away, and I had the washers and nut a week later.

I'll take a look at my purchases, and who I've bought from over there. I'll put together a list, and post it. Maybe we should start spreading the news about who is reliable, and who isn't. I don't think we should be throwing the baby out with the bath water, if we can just stick to reliable suppliers from over there. After all, if we take care of the pennies, then the dollars will take care of themselves.

@Paulyy -  Geez man! I've looked at that board you made, time and again. I just don't get why it doesn't work (scratching head with both hands). You've tried different chips too, right? I don't get it, everything seems kosher. I even used that board to verify my vero against, so I don't see it being the problem. I've even done side-by-side views of the yours vs. the original, and I don't see anything out of whack.

Just too weird man  :icon_rolleyes:.
Singapore ? I didn't know people send things from here . Which shop is that ? I really want to get my hand on some CA3080E locally .
Taiwan had a long-standing feud with china , HK included . Taiwan had a long war with china too .


Here are some of the sellers I have delt with on Ebay lately, to date I haven't had a problem with yet;
- ele-parts
- eeedesigner
- tayda2009
- goodbuy711 (store is allpartspipe)

Much to my surprise, I did order from Polida (Chinese) as well, and had no issues. That one must have slipped under the radar  :icon_rolleyes: Since Jimi didn't have an issue either, I guess I keep that one.

I made an error in saying that I ordered from Singapour, upon checking, it's Thailand, from Tayda2009. My apologies.

Unfortunately, I can't go back further than 60 days on my Ebay history, but I know I've ordered stuff from other places as well. I'll try to keep track of that in the future. One thing I do check before I buy is the feedback percentage. If it's below 99.8%, then I don't buy from there.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on January 02, 2012, 06:10:02 PM

@Paulyy -  Geez man! I've looked at that board you made, time and again. I just don't get why it doesn't work (scratching head with both hands). You've tried different chips too, right? I don't get it, everything seems kosher. I even used that board to verify my vero against, so I don't see it being the problem. I've even done side-by-side views of the yours vs. the original, and I don't see anything out of whack.

Just too weird man  :icon_rolleyes:.

I've done some comparing as well and couldnt find anything wrong but doesnt mean I missed something. I dont get it either. I have tryed different chips but I only bought two of each from smallbear. Both do the samething. No change at all. Maybe I'll try different chips from someone else. I've got to the point where I dont know what else to do with it. I'll save it for a rainy day I guess.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: DavenPaget on January 02, 2012, 08:09:35 PM
the chip came from hong kong, don't remember the vendor....
hang on, let me look...

i can probably mail ya one, daven, if ya wanna pm me your snail mail addie..

here's where i got the good ones, intersil 3080e's from a guy handled polida:

http://myworld.ebay.com/polida2008/&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2754

this is the one who took 7 months to send me a broken chip:

http://myworld.ebay.com/cwithk/&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2754

cwithk is his handle, and he's in hong kong
It's fine . I'm cool .  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on January 02, 2012, 08:29:09 PM
paulyy, REAL dumb question, but did you use sand paper on the trace side of the board? it looks like there's a lot of fine sanding marks...
if you did, check continuity on each trace from point to point...i've had circuits fail over damn near imperceptable scratches across a trace.
all it takes is one, and everything's outta wack.

i've looked at the board, the schem and the layouts over and over, and you describe almost the same prob i was having at first...muddy wah and horrible blatty distortion. in my case, the caps were off by a factor of 1000...they were supposed to be picofarad, i used nanofarad...swapping them out brought the circuit back to life.

stumped, dude.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on January 02, 2012, 09:56:27 PM
paulyy, REAL dumb question, but did you use sand paper on the trace side of the board? it looks like there's a lot of fine sanding marks...
if you did, check continuity on each trace from point to point...i've had circuits fail over damn near imperceptable scratches across a trace.
all it takes is one, and everything's outta wack.

i've looked at the board, the schem and the layouts over and over, and you describe almost the same prob i was having at first...muddy wah and horrible blatty distortion. in my case, the caps were off by a factor of 1000...they were supposed to be picofarad, i used nanofarad...swapping them out brought the circuit back to life.

stumped, dude.
I used a S.O.S pad to clean off the black ink when it was done. Super fine grit. My componets seem to be fine as well. :icon_confused: I hit the wall with this one but Dino offered to help so he asked if I could send him my board and take a look at it. If he cant figure it out then I dont know. 
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on February 08, 2012, 01:25:44 PM
Nice little mod for the Vocalizer;

Take out the 3.9K resistor that sits between pins 2 and 6 on the CA3080, and replace it with a 10K linear pot.

You now have a sweep frequency control  :icon_mrgreen:

Enjoy,
Dino
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on February 08, 2012, 02:12:06 PM
sweet!!!   ;D
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on February 09, 2012, 10:40:27 AM
Another thing, you might want to check your Vref voltage. On the schematic, it states that it should be at 4.7v, after the zener. I initially used a 4.7v zener, which workes, but I did notice that due to some loss in the circuit, that my true voltage was sitting at around 4.3v. Studying the Dipthonizer schematic, I noticed that it has 5v Vref going to the CA3080. I did have some 5.1v zeners on hand, so out of curiousity, I swapped out the 4.7 for a 5.1. My Vref voltage now sits at 4.95v.

Performance-wise, it seems to have centered the sweep a bit more. Whereas I had the "o" in the "yoy" closer to the heel end, it seems to be a bit more balanced now, with the "o" more in the middle of the sweep. Is it because we're balancing better between the Vref, the forward voltage of the diode chain, and the performance of the transistor versus the resistance to ground? I'm not quite sure yet.

If you guys could try it, just to validate what I'm hearing, I'd appreciate it. 
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on February 09, 2012, 10:44:59 AM
i will try to get on it today or tomorrow bro...i gotta hit the parts store, but if i do the ol lady will freak.

"i thought that last project before the last 20 projects was the last one"...lol   :icon_mrgreen:

i just cleared everything out of her dining room...and then cluttered it again last nite!!

so...gotta be careful right now!! lol
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on February 09, 2012, 11:14:56 AM
dino,
what was the other mod you came up with to "smooth" the distortion?

i wanna do that, too..thanks bro!

off to rat shack... ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on February 09, 2012, 06:00:22 PM
ok, i played with the vocalizer this afternoon...

first on the agenda...the 1 meg  resistor for the distortion.

i had a couple 4 meg ones in parallel on mine, total resistance was almost 5m...got 'em outta there, went back to 1 meg.

discovered i don't like the cap across it...tried 10, 68,151, and 221 pf....none were worth keeping in my opinion.

in fact, the 1 meg resistor isn't necessary. it doesn't seem to DO anything at all!!

i soldered it in anyways, figuring what the heck. but while i had it out, i disconnected the 1n914 next to it and did get a humongous volume increase. it didn't sound all that great, tho, so i left it in...but i DID add a 1n34a ge in series with it to make the clipper asymetric, and that seemed to smooth out the distortion some. it's still pretty nasty sounding. again, tried it with and without the 1 meg resistor. didn't seem to matter.

also tried paralleling the clipping diodes with the aforementioned caps...no discernable difference.

so i took out the 3.9 k resistor, and tried a 10k trimmer. now THAT did work, but i found the yoy was a little ellusive...with the trimmer pegged, it was ALMOST getting there, but not enough.

i had some 30k trimmers, and popped one in. now i get 4 distinct harmonic shifts, and a very discernable "yoy"...and it definitely spread out the "sweet spot"...mega improvement, dino, big kudos bro!!

i still don't like the fuzz very much...but the wah part sounds a lot better.

i had added a dpdt to the connections on pot 2, switching the pot 2 connection of pin 1 to pin 3...this changes it to a more wah-ish sound (different, but useable) and the 30k trummer seemed to help that too.

didn't try the different diode yet...can't get to the part store today. ;)

onwards and upwards, brothers...

gonna start building a dipthongizer...got the pcb in today from madbean. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on February 09, 2012, 08:36:43 PM
Well, I prefer the Talking Pedal front end, so I'm going to throw the Vocalizer back on the bread board. This time, I'm going to lift the front end from the TP, and then go Vocalizer after the 10K fuzz pot.

All in all, when comparing the two, I think the fact that the Vocalizer is mixing the input between the inverting and non-inverting inputs of the opamp is part of the weakness. If you look at the TP, the input is sent only to the + inputs of the opamp. I think if we realign the input on the Vocalizer to match the TP, we'll should get a better, smoother fuzz, like the TP.

The other biggy....

The fuzz and buffer parts of the opamp on the Vocalizer are being fed Vref, which in this case is 4.7 to 5 volts. The TP goes right to 9 volts. Another place to experiment with here.

Put the two schematics side by side, you'll see what I mean.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on February 10, 2012, 04:27:49 PM
I sat down last night, liquid paper in hand, and re-drew the front end on the Vocalizer on paper. It basically gives you the TP front end now, with the unknown being the resistor and cap after the buffer. The 100n caps, 47K, and 120K resistors after the fuzz pot might need to be adjusted as well, but it should provide a much better, smoother fuzz/distortion this way. Of course, until I bread board it, it's just conjecture. But, I figured drawing it up was a good start. Besides, I'm leaving Sunday to go roast my ass in Cuba for a week, so I won't have time to play with this right now.

If anyone wants to fool around with this, here it is;

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Vocalizer_Front_Mod.jpg)

Should provide some interesting results.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on February 10, 2012, 05:35:05 PM
does look interesting...but i think i'm gonna take the cowboy way this time and sit back and see what develops bro.
 

too many other projects!! ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on February 11, 2012, 07:27:58 PM
Well.... I had some time to kill today, and I couldn't help myself. I threw this sucker on the bread board.

WOW!!!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: It's just a damn shame that the camera is packed away, because my description below just doesn't do this write up justice.

What a difference. I decided to use an LM324 instead of the RC4136, since the LM is more widely available and cheaper. The CA3080 stays, as does the 22K dual gang. I did use a 5.1v zener, instead of the 4.7v. In this circuit, I'm getting exactly 5.0v as Vref. I'm using an AC128 tranny for the switching end of things.

Insofar as the unknowns between pins 4 and 9, I used a 500K trimmer, and tried different caps. In the end, anything between 220K and 470K works well. In this case 390K sounds optimal, along with a 100n cap. It gave me the best balance, and the best YOY when dialing between 0 and 10 on the fuzz dial.

I would use a 10K pot instead of the 3.9K resistor, between pins 2 and 6 on the CA3080. It's great having that frequency adjustment handy. So is the 1K pot, instead of the 390 ohm on the way out, to allow balancing the volume with other pedals.

Now to the meat n' taters...
The fuzz/distortion is fantastic compared to the original Vocalizer layout. Just day and friggin' night. Much richer and smoother, and it really pushes the YOY well. On the clipping side of things, while the 1M resistor is fine, it can be up'd all the way to a 2.2M, which gives a bit harder edge to the drive. I even tried a third diode, for an assymetrical clip, and it sounds great. Personally, I tend to prefer assym clipping, and just changing between sym and assym doesn't affect the output level, while it does change the character of the YOY somewhat. A nice little mod would be a sym/assym switch, allowing selection of one, or the other. One other choice to be made would be the 1uF cap to ground, below the clipping diodes. A 2.2uF could go here as well, but I find the fuzz/distortion a tad buzzier with the 1uF, while the 2.2uF is touch mellower. This is a "flavor to taste" thing.

The only other thing is the 10K fuzz pot. At 10K, some of the fuzz still bleeds in to the circuit with it set at minimum. A 50K cleans things up quite a bit, while a 100K really isolates the buffer from the fuzz side. With 100K, at 0, it gets pretty clean. The YOY is still there, but cleaner, and mellower. I suppose if someone wanted to run it with another dirt pedal, being able to isolate the fuzz side of this circuit would be a good thing.
So, I put it to the test.
With my WEM Project V Fuzz going into it, with a 100K pot set at 0, the fuzz from the WEM's fuzz ran through the buffer unimpeded, while the circuit worked it's YOY magic beautifully. Dialing up the circuit fuzz along with it further distorts the signal, but dialing it down again isolates the circuit fuzz, leaving the WEM tone alone. But let me tell you, the reconfigured front end really helps the filter end work it's magic on any dirt coming in, just like the Talking Pedal. The WEM's fuzz (already pretty raunchy) YOY'd, sounded down right mean and throaty :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:. In the end, this is another "flavor to taste" thing, whether you use a 10K, 25K, 50K, or 100K pot.

So there you have it. This sucker kicks the original circuit into next week, and back again... a few times over.

While I'm away, I'm going to think of a new name for this circuit, something like the "Talk-a-lizer", or the "Vocal-er"  :icon_lol: When I get back, I'm doing a new vero.

Cheers,
Dino

Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: Ronan on February 11, 2012, 09:03:37 PM
Its great to have a win now and then Dino! Hopefully I'll do some breadboard experiments on using the CA3080 as a variable resistance and turn up with something enlightening, or not. :)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on February 11, 2012, 09:51:45 PM
Its great to have a win now and then Dino! Hopefully I'll do some breadboard experiments on using the CA3080 as a variable resistance and turn up with something enlightening, or not. :)

I'll be interested to see what you dig up when I get back.

Another little mod to the schematic; I canceled the two 100n caps after the #2 pole of the fuzz pot, and inserted a single non-polar 5uF/20v tantalum cap between the pole, and the junction point. This emulates the TP to a further degree, but I find that the YOY is enhanced somewhat, especially with the fuzz turned down. I also tried the same cap in place of the 2.2uF electro on the output, but I found that I lost a tad too much top end, so the 2.2uF stays. I've had these 5uF caps kicking around for a while, now one has found a home.  :icon_mrgreen:

I'm going to plug this schematic into Paint, and try to clean it up. Here we go;

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Talk-a-lizer.jpg)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: paulyy on February 12, 2012, 07:44:23 AM
This sounds like some great ideas Dino. I'v been messing with this pedal for awhile since you mailed it back and it sounds good but was never crazy about how it would never really clean up when you turned the fuzz all the way down. I will try these mods when I get the chance. Have fun in Cuba :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on February 21, 2012, 11:34:31 AM
Hi guys, I'm back!

OK, I took yesterday to re-orientate myself here, and I've made a short clip of what I put on the bread board. To my ears, it sounds much fuller, or throatier (call it what you will) than the original Vocalizer circuit. I also find that it sounds more consistant over the whole range of the fretboard, whereas the original seems to lose some of the YOY effect in the high registers. Anyway, you be the judge...



As mentioned in the video, only difference here is the third diode that I added for assymetrical clipping. Also, the 3.9K resistor is being emulated by a trimmer (though I didn't play with it here), and there's no volume pot or 390 ohm resistor, I'm going direct out. Everything else is as drawn.

As paully mentions, either way, it never completely cleans up with the 10K pot at minimum, unless you back off the guitars volume a tad. This improves somewhat if you use a bigger pot, but personally, this whole thing really shines with dirt IMHO. I would go with the 10K, and the guitar volume in a pinch.

Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on February 21, 2012, 12:03:19 PM
wow, that sounds great dino...let me know when the vero's worked up, maybe time to re-do my vocalizer.
this sounds killer!

also, ian sent me a board for the talking pedal, and i bought a diphongizer from mad bean...soon we can compare all.

but still, to this day, i think my fav so far is the mouthmeistor!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on February 21, 2012, 01:11:35 PM
Going to look at the Vocalizer vero, and see if I can shift some things around. Might be easy to reconfigure things a bit.

Working on it.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on February 21, 2012, 09:10:31 PM
Alright, here we go. The "Talk-a-lizer". Updated schematic, which reflects the vero.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Talk-a-lizer-1.jpg)

And, the vero. Luckily, I had done an alternate IC vero, and it was a close match for this schematic. Just watch the IC orientation.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Talk-a-lizerLayout.jpg)

I did another experiment, and tried a TL074 IC, in place of the LM324. Well... I was flabbergasted at how much cleaner the circuit got when you turn the fuzz down to zero. I think the LM324 was distorting the clean signal on the buffer side. I think the RC4136 does the same thing, explaining (maybe) why the Vocalizer never completely cleans up with the fuzz at 0. So, most definately go with the TL074 on this one, along with the 10K fuzz pot.

The 5uF/20V tantalum cap on the vero reflets what I'm using, which is a non-polar. I left enough room on the vero though, to allow for a different cut or jumper arrangement for a smaller 4.7uF polar tantalum, which will work as well. I tested this on the bread board, put the positive side of the cap towards the fuzz pot pole 2.

Also added are the volume, frequency pots mod, and there is a place to add a third clipping diode (D7) option. If you want to get the mostest, you could add a switch, to switch between sym/assym clipping. There is no appreciable volume difference between the two, so the Mark Hammer clipping volume mod won't be needed here.

Enjoy guys!!
Dino
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on February 21, 2012, 09:49:10 PM
looks great!!! i guess i know what i'll be doing soon. ;)
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on March 03, 2012, 12:28:51 PM
bro, a vocalizer has turned up on the other forum

http://fsb.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=13235&p=183674#p183674

you'll have to fix the link...i've requested gut shots, bom and sound or video clips
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on March 03, 2012, 04:38:59 PM
bro, a vocalizer has turned up on the other forum

http://fsb.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=13235&p=183674#p183674

you'll have to fix the link...i've requested gut shots, bom and sound or video clips

Thanks bro! I posted, requesting sound or video. There is none on the net. As for the schem and layout, I think we've got that in the bag.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on March 03, 2012, 07:31:48 PM
i wanna hear the original tho, so we can see how close we got.

i'm wondering if the original being not true bypass if it was a little warmer sounding...from the pic, was definitely not tb, may have made it sound a bit different.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on March 25, 2012, 06:24:15 PM
btw, fwiw....

i tried the vocalizer the other day straight into a mixer...VIOLA!!..


err,,, voila?


TOTALLY different animal...the yoy, the fuzz ...i mean, the FUZZ even sounded great.

so my suggestion is put dirt before it if necessary, and run it into a clean amp. completely changes the whole nature of the beast.

YMMV, but for me, it was an eye opener.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on March 25, 2012, 07:11:27 PM
Good to know bro. Now that I've got the Ampeg back on line, I'm going to try it.

I'm still pretty impressed with the Talkalizer though. Especially the way it cleans up when you dial off the fuzz. Totally different beast.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on March 25, 2012, 07:54:03 PM
the talkalizer's on the list bro....

first i gotta finish the talking pedal and the diphonizer...

and the ludwig.. ;)

but FIRST, the mondo monster power supply from hELL
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on March 25, 2012, 08:48:02 PM
I'm having visions of National Lampoons "Christmas Vacation".

You, plugging it in... and the nuclear power plant down the road having to throw another reactor on line.  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on March 26, 2012, 10:28:23 AM
heh heh heh....


EXCELLENT...

:D
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on April 04, 2012, 01:13:47 PM
hey dino,

just a heads-up, i'm starting on the talkalizer today i think..i've got a spare crybaby shell dieing to get stuffed.

;)

will report back as it comes together!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on April 04, 2012, 05:51:03 PM
hey dino,

just a heads-up, i'm starting on the talkalizer today i think..i've got a spare crybaby shell dieing to get stuffed.

;)

will report back as it comes together!

Be gentle bro.... please.  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on April 05, 2012, 07:34:29 PM
be afraid...VERY AFRAID!! lol
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on May 12, 2012, 05:21:38 PM
i got sidetracked.

some kid stole my lunch money.

the penguins were beating me again.

i

i

i......forgot!! soon...lol
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on May 12, 2012, 09:24:58 PM
i got sidetracked.

some kid stole my lunch money.

the penguins were beating me again.

i

i

i......forgot!! soon...lol

My advise to you bro; Steal the lunch money from the penguins, and beat that kid to a pulp. You should be good to go then.  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: cortezthekiller on March 14, 2017, 03:20:40 PM
I put together the Vocalizer from Dino's vero layout and it sounded pretty cool. Thanks!
Though I had found it distorted on the cleanest setting and found that lowering the 330K feedback resistor on
the clean opamp preamp section to 100K worked quite well to keep it from overdriving the filters.
Perhaps the issue with the fuzz not cleaning up completely with the 10K pot was actually this.
It now seems to be distortion-free on the clean side using the stock 10k pot.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: cortezthekiller on March 14, 2017, 04:04:15 PM
I also used a 10K volume pot ( as opposed to the suggested 1K) to make up for some of the volume lost lowering the clean gain.
There is also now a wider variation in volume between the clean and fuzz levels, so the volume pot is key with the change.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on March 14, 2017, 07:53:20 PM
thanks for the info!!

i still have a spare pot for this circuit, and tho the original is long gone have been toying with making another one.

i ALWAYS had issues with mine, never happy with the distortion.. perhaps this will make a diff.

i've noticed on many circuits schematics it seems like values are off from what really works...
makes me wonder if thats cuz they didn't want guys like us figuring it out

or maybe they were mistakes.

while revisiting RG's Geofex.com site recently for the technology of the fuzzface article, i noticed he refers to the output cap on the page as both .1 and .01... and i'm like... hmmm... which is it? (i like a .4 there... or was it .04??? ;)  )

i mean, it's easy to be off by a factor of 10 or a hundred or even a thousand. all ya gotta do is mistake one color for another and blammo, suddenly everything is weird.

in production ya figure out what works and stick with it... and maybe don't update the schematic. beats me.

but nice work cortez!!!

cani trouble ya for some clips?
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: cortezthekiller on March 14, 2017, 08:32:51 PM
Hey Jimi I made a quick recording with a loop of guitar playing since I don't have it boxed yet:

https://soundcloud.com/user-492894337/vocalizer

I went through most of the settings, ( I also added the 10K "range" control).
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on March 14, 2017, 10:08:48 PM
sounds killer!! the resonance when ya kick the fuzz in sounds almost like tuvan thoat singing kinda stuff... well done bro!
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on March 15, 2017, 06:04:27 AM
The Vocalizer wasn't that great insofar as resonance was concerned because the front end was pretty weak. On the other hand, the Talking Pedal front end was superb, but the back end was a PITA due to the unobtainium dual pot setup. That's why I developed the Talk-a-lizer. Best of both worlds. Also cleans up WAY better with the guitar volume. You might want to check that one out.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: cortezthekiller on March 15, 2017, 12:25:08 PM
Ya I know what you mean. I have an old talking pedal and it certainly has a smoother fuzz that works better with the vocal qualities of the filter.
If I build another vocalizer I may do as you suggest and use the talking pedal front-end. For now I wanted to see how the original one sounded and worked first. Your "talkalizer" did sound pretty good and was a neat way to get the best of both.

I also have been trying different value pots for the filter sweep (10kA, 50KB, 50KA), and they all give a different range and movement to the vowel sounds. The 22K pot I have only rotates 90 degrees from end to end so the sweep is quite abrupt and jumpy.
Title: Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
Post by: digi2t on March 15, 2017, 01:19:25 PM
The 22K pot I have only rotates 90 degrees from end to end so the sweep is quite abrupt and jumpy.

That's where the germanium transistor comes into play as well. It provides a softer knee when sweeping through the range. Try a silicon PNP in it's place, and you'll hear the difference right away. You think it's "jumpy" now...  :icon_wink: Try different Ge's in there, the different gains/leakages will affect the vocal sweep.

I found that the 22K Omeg dual linear (270 degree) works fine. I did have to shave the rubber bumpers, and tweak the pot position though to get a nice sweep. Personally, I prefer running it clean, with some other dirt in front.

You could try tweaking the 2K2 at the 3080, or the 3K resistor on the Ge's emitter too. It might help with the filter transition. Never tried it myself, so I'm spitballing here.