Hey, what is yalls success ratio for pedal building, ie fires up first try w/o any issues? I'm about 2/7 on my latest round of builds and still debugging what should be pretty simple stuff. Getting so frustrated I'm about to start ripping out my hair and/or smashing these things with a hammer. ARGHAGHGHHG, my patience is being stretched thin these days!!!
Sorry for the venting!
When I first started my ratio was about 1 in 10. I've thrown, stomped, and even beaten pedals with a hammer (my younger days). Now all of mine work.....eventually!!
As far as 'fires up first go' i have found that soldering neatness coupled with complexity of the circuit usually determines the success of a build starting up first go. I'd say, half fire up first go, roughly. 99% of the ones that dont work are soldering related these days (usually bridges). Not often i accidentally use the wrong value or stuff up polarity, happens sometimes though.
Also, if your using pcb, the designers pcb skills come into play. I built 3 Flap Jacks that had a ridiculously small clerance between the signal tracks and ground plane. Shorts all over the place, it was a nightmare. He fixed the clearance and i built another, worked first shot!
Dont feel too bad if they arent starting up first shot. Happens to the best of us. Refine your soldering skills is my only advise. It IS a skill. Even after 5 years of obsessive pedal building im still learning ways of improving my skills.
Good Luck!
Paul
when i started i even questioned the very justification of my own existence
such was the amount of frustration i experienced ;D
nowadays, if not instantly working, my pedals need about 5 minutes debug, nothing more.. and, mind you, this wasnt something i got progressively, it was something i got from night to day, when i realised i was doing things wrong FOR YEARS, and started examining my practices involving pcb making, soldering and pedal mechanization, and streamlined all unnecesary stuff, and got ahold of safe/sure practices
when making pedals, i ask myself questions all the time:
are these copper tracks neat? do they touch when they souldnt? yes - then proceed
is this copper pcb really fresh so solder will stick to it instantly? no? (sand again)
does the solder tip do its job flawlesly? if not- change, for a good quality one... be cheap, and results will be cheap
do... etc
lots of questions and auto-feedback... "am i already tired? do i need to rest?" are also very legit questions when making pedals
good luck and get you some discipline and good practices, youll do fine in short time, best
It definitely comes down to solder skills and also pacing yourself on a build. Avoid building on a deadline. I have better luck if I take a break or shelve it for the night when I'm tired. My success ratio has probably jumped to about 80% now and the other 20% will usually get sorted out pretty quick. This is, of course, assuming the schematic and board or layout is verified. On the downside the One Chip Chorus has dragged down my average :icon_redface: and I have yet to build a Fuzz Face I didn't think sucked :icon_neutral:
Success ratio for building something for the first time: about 1 in 5.
Success ratio for building something for the 2nd or 3rd time: about 4 in 5.
Success ratio for building something for the 4th or 5th time: about 11 in 12.
There's always something to go wrong. You learn what it is will llikely be, bit by bit.
Quote from: Styles on April 30, 2012, 08:07:57 PM
Hey, what is yalls success ratio for pedal building, ie fires up first try w/o any issues? I'm about 2/7 on my latest round of builds and still debugging what should be pretty simple stuff.
Fires up first try, no issues? If you have to have both of those at the same time, I'm probably at a lifetime average of 50%, over the time from late 60s to today. What can do is get through the soldering and wiring problems quickly. I'm down to about 30-45 minutes on debugging and getting what I expected on those.
Finding design issues is another matter. I pretty much don't build preexisting designs any more at all, so pretty close to 100% of my "... STILL doesn't work!!" shrieks are little gifts I've left for myself.
As some advice, stop counting your scores. Practice your soldering, practice your wiring. Develop the attitude that the finished product is just the garbage left over from doing the work. Think about how to make solder joints you're *proud* of. Print schematics, layouts and parts lists and mark over the parts, traces, and wires as you put them in.
Remember - you haven't failed until you give up.
It's frustrating, but debugging stuff is when you start really learning and getting a feel for electronics. Without debugging and reasoning your way through the circuit it is just assembly. A circuit that fires up the first time will usually remain a mystery in its operation, whereas one where you been through every component looking for a mistake will be part of your electronic vocabulary from then on.
I judge success by what sounds good enough to make it onto (and stay on) one of my pedalboards.
Honestly, most of my stuff (~80-90%) fires up and works on the first shot. Maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 (max, being generous here) sound good enough to be a "keeper". Frustrating is when something sounds "meh".
I have loads of f/x that have been put in the "strip for parts as necessary" box. The other so-so ones I just give away to friends that think they like the sound.
This really is a hobby of love. ;D
Quote from: oldschoolanalog on April 30, 2012, 11:34:27 PM
I judge success by what sounds good enough to make it onto (and stay on) one of my pedalboards....
^^^Using that as a yardstick, my success rate is maybe 0.01% :)
I get bored really easy and I enjoy the layout design and build process.
I enjoy the layout design process more than any other part of building pedals by at least 1000% ;D
I REALLY REALLY enjoy designing boards.
These days my success rate of firing up first time depends on the circuit.
On something I have never built before...
(Success rates may be lower if I get any distractions during the build process)
If its a new layout of an existing circuit, probably about 80% - 85%.
If its an existing circuit and a verified layout, these days probably 90% - 95%
New circuit, new layout: about 75% - 80%. After verifying the circuit on a breadboard first.
I started working with electronics and on circuit boards and cables (building MASSIVE cable harnesses) since 1981.
When I first started building pedals (5 - 6 years ago?) my success rate was much lower, maybe 40% - 50%
I think I have a pretty good success rate.
But when working on a build I have never done before, I work very slowly and methodically.
Same with something I have built before, but distractions have a less drastic effect on me then.
Bright young men of disheveled appearance, often with sunken glowing eyes, can be seen sitting at the soldering iron, their respiration kept and trying to melt the solder, already poised to feed the wire, at the pad on which their attention seems to be riveted as a gambler's on the rolling dice. When not so transfixed they often sit at tables strewn with schematics over which they pore like possessed students of a cabalistic text. They work until they nearly drop, twenty, thirty hours at a time. Their food, if they arrange it, is brought to them: coffee, coke, pretzels. If possible they sleep in datasheets near the scope. Their rumpled clothes, their unwashed and unshaven faces, and their uncombed hair all testify that they are oblivious to their bodies and to the world in which they move. These are stompbox bums, compulsive builder.... --Eliza
I was surprised when I first started doing GGG kits. Almost all of them worked, with a few mistakes here and there. I moved onto perf and made a lot of mistakes. Most of those sounded terrible, or didn't work. Now I etch my PCBs and they work 99% of them with very few needing debugging. I've only been at this for a little over a year, but I think after a few builds, you learn what mistakes you make and become more careful with those aspects of the building process. Etched PCBs help because you're in control of the quality of your etch, and a decent etching means less chances for something shorting.
One thing I found very helpful was building a few pedals to sell. With my own builds, I tend to not care as much and am less committed to having a finished product. If I know I won't be keeping a build, I tend to have a better idea of when I'm done, and the process of getting from the very beginning to a completed build becomes more clear cut.
i feel your pain....
my last 2 are still being debugged - 1 was simple the other had a crazy flip flop switch i wanted to try
but i sure love when they finally work. had a fuzz face dead bug that worked 1st try. i played it for hours
Quote from: frank_p on May 01, 2012, 01:03:20 AM
Bright young men of disheveled appearance, often with sunken glowing eyes, can be seen sitting at the soldering iron, their respiration kept and trying to melt the solder, already poised to feed the wire, at the pad on which their attention seems to be riveted as a gambler's on the rolling dice. When not so transfixed they often sit at tables strewn with schematics over which they pore like possessed students of a cabalistic text. They work until they nearly drop, twenty, thirty hours at a time. Their food, if they arrange it, is brought to them: coffee, coke, pretzels. If possible they sleep in datasheets near the scope. Their rumpled clothes, their unwashed and unshaven faces, and their uncombed hair all testify that they are oblivious to their bodies and to the world in which they move. These are stompbox bums, compulsive builder.... --Eliza
As I was reading that I thought "When was this bastard in my office/workshop?" :)
I often site at my desk for 20 - 30 hours designing PCBs
Except for the coffee. I prefer tea or caffeinated soda.
I also prefer Szechuan dishes. Or pizza. The pretzels are for desert.
And I also probably get a good success rate with my own PCB designs that I etch myself.
That's probably because as I design the PCB, when I place a component, I trace 5 or 6 components backwards and forwards.
And before I place the last component, I back-trace all the way to the beginning.
It takes a lot longer to design that way, but it does save time later when it comes to building them.
I still make mistakes though.
Judging by a bunch of the replies above, it seems there's a lack of breadboarding before actually soldering on a board.
I really think one of the biggest novice errors (other than not learning how to read a schematic...and just soldering by numbers) is buying a kit and soldering before breadboarding (especially if it's not a monster size circuit).
Breadboarding is a first test to see if it actually works and lets you tweak till you get it just how you like it.
It really means very little if it fires up on the first shot, if the sound is not great.
To the OP: Looking at your previous posts here, it doesn't look like you've asked for any troubleshooting help. The members here are about as kind and generous as you're going to get, so ask away...after reading the debug thread, of course...
good luck
Doing lots of research beforehand, definately brought my success rate up a few notches.
Breadboard FIRST... enormous help to the success rate. Especially, at times, the effect doesn't meet my expectations. So, no harm done.
Any fubar's I've encountered in builds are usually always attributed to some error of my ways during the build. With time, I've been lucky, I've figured them out.
Quatifying my success rate for the baseball fan;
Works right off the bat - .500
Works "somewhat", but minor fixes required - .250
Oh man! I really screwed the pooch on this one! (but with time, fixed it) - .250
Guess I've really lucky so far. Nothings gone to the trash.... yet!
so it seems to me , the most important thing , besides proper technique and other points mentioned that eliminate errors , would be to develop strong debug skills .
I have to say that I honestly can not remember the last time I fired up a build and it DIDN'T work. Thats not to say that I didn't need to "tweak" it to my liking but, it has been quite a while since I have completed a build and there was NOTHING! ;D
I always follow 2 strict and unwavering guidelines when I build:
1) I do all PnP blue PCB transfers. After I have completed the transfer and before I etch, I meticulously scrutinize the circuit point-to-point with the original tranfer to ensure that ALL of the traces are complete (no pin holes) and I have my handy xacto knife to scratch away any unwanted resist. I also scratch away unwanted copper AFTER etching. This step has kept me solder bridge free for as long as I can remember.
2) When I assemble my "parts kit" for the build, I ALWAYS triple check resistor and cap values for correctness. I scrutinize each and every resistor color code and every cap value and compare to the BOM for the build. This also carries over to the build process when I select the component to be placed on the board.
Simple steps to follow which have kept me debug-free (at least broken debug..... not tweaking to my liking ;))
I also recommend starting with mods, and THEN progressing to building the whole thing.
The great thing about mods is that it allows you to completely discount an extremely lengthy list of possible sources of malfunction. After all, the manufacturer took care of them.
Research on experts, and the acquisition of expertise, indicates that what permits experts in any field to be so efficient at what they do, is the manner in which they are able to simple separate relevant from irrelevant information and considerations. In effect, it has the benefit of giving them less to consider. As you acquire experience and expertise in pedal-building, you become increasingly able to develop your own list of "stuff it could be" and "stuff it probably isn't". Of course, the irony is that when the source of malfunction does turn out to be something you thought it probably wasn't, you have those little "private shrieks" RG alluded to.
But, those moments aside, it takes a while to develop your own "expert list" of what merits a little more attentiveness during building. That's a big part of why I cited different success numbers earlier for whether I'm making something for the first time or the 2nd, 3rd, or 5th time.
If one is early enough in the game, then you won't have such a mental list, or else it will be so big as to hamstring your ability to efficiently troubleshoot. And THAT is why I suggest starting out with mods.
A big +1 to all the good advice that's gone before. (BTW, I've been "lucky" enough to be in the unbelievable high-80% to mid-90% since I started doing this again. But I put that down to old[er] age and being methodical [read "slow"].)
But this
vvv has to be just about the
wisest thing you could hope to read in this thread. Thank you -
once again - R.G.
Quote from: R.G. on April 30, 2012, 09:58:45 PM
Remember - you haven't failed until you give up.
Quote from: LucifersTrip on May 01, 2012, 05:46:07 AM
Judging by a bunch of the replies above, it seems there's a lack of breadboarding before actually soldering on a board.
I really think one of the biggest novice errors (other than not learning how to read a schematic...and just soldering by numbers) is buying a kit and soldering before breadboarding (especially if it's not a monster size circuit).
Breadboarding is a first test to see if it actually works and lets you tweak till you get it just how you like it.
It really means very little if it fires up on the first shot, if the sound is not great.
To the OP: Looking at your previous posts here, it doesn't look like you've asked for any troubleshooting help. The members here are about as kind and generous as you're going to get, so ask away...after reading the debug thread, of course...
good luck
Actually, I'm moving away from the breadboard. I spend most of my time thinking about the circuit and modeling it. Then I build it. I seem to prefer spending my time studying than actually breadboarding. Sure, I'm missing out on happy accidents but it has saved me many long nights.
Quote from: bluebunny on May 01, 2012, 10:42:47 AM
Quote from: R.G. on April 30, 2012, 09:58:45 PM
Remember - you haven't failed until you give up.
After we had conducted thousands of experiments on a certain project without solving the problem, one of my associates, after we had conducted the crowning experiment and it had proved a failure, expressed discouragement and disgust over our having failed to find out anything. I cheerily assured him that we had learned something. For we had learned for a certainty that the thing couldn't be done that way, and that we would have to try some other way.Thomas Edison, American Magazine, January 1921
While perfecting the reliability of the light bulb that was invented and patented several years before !
Quote from: frank_p on May 01, 2012, 11:06:33 AM
Quote from: bluebunny on May 01, 2012, 10:42:47 AM
Quote from: R.G. on April 30, 2012, 09:58:45 PM
Remember - you haven't failed until you give up.
After we had conducted thousands of experiments on a certain project without solving the problem, one of my associates, after we had conducted the crowning experiment and it had proved a failure, expressed discouragement and disgust over our having failed to find out anything. I cheerily assured him that we had learned something. For we had learned for a certainty that the thing couldn't be done that way, and that we would have to try some other way.
Thomas Edison, American Magazine, January 1921
While perfecting the reliability of the light bulb that was invented and patented several years before !
I've heard it told as he said he never failed, he excluded possibilities.
Thanks for all the replies. This is probably the most frustrating and rewarding hobby I've gotten myself involved in. I've been building for a few years now and generally do alright with them. Used to etch my own pcbs but got hooked on veros and been doing that for the last year or so. If anyone has checked my prior posts you'll see that I'm in the middle of a 5x multi effect build that is driving me bonkers. The score so far:
Fn5: works, boost is way loud even with volume rolled back
Silicon tonebender: works, really harsh and tone control doesn't seem to do anything
Phase45 vibed: passes signal but no phase. Have matched transistors on the way
Pork barrel ce2: passes signal, no chorus effect
Rebote 2.5: works, crazy distorted runaway delay though
Splitter: works
Sho boost: works
Gonna mess around some more tonight, will probably take readings and start posting debug threads soon. Argfufhfh!!!
Quote from: Styles on May 01, 2012, 01:44:19 PM
Thanks for all the replies. This is probably the most frustrating and rewarding hobby I've gotten myself involved in. I've been building for a few years now and generally do alright with them. Used to etch my own pcbs but got hooked on veros and been doing that for the last year or so. If anyone has checked my prior posts you'll see that I'm in the middle of a 5x multi effect build that is driving me bonkers. The score so far:
Fn5: works, boost is way loud even with volume rolled back
Silicon tonebender: works, really harsh and tone control doesn't seem to do anything
Phase45 vibed: passes signal but no phase. Have matched transistors on the way
Pork barrel ce2: passes signal, no chorus effect
Rebote 2.5: works, crazy distorted runaway delay though
Splitter: works
Sho boost: works
Gonna mess around some more tonight, will probably take readings and start posting debug threads soon. Argfufhfh!!!
make sure its condensed in ONE big debug thread :P
post pics of copper/solder side, for me 90% errors are due to touching tracks
Quote from: Styles on May 01, 2012, 01:44:19 PM
Used to etch my own pcbs but got hooked on veros and been doing that for the last year or so.
Theres your problem :) i know there are some vero ninja's out there, but personally i only use it for really small circuits and basic stuff. Too much room for error if you ask me. (P.s. hope you get your pork barrel working!)
Paul
Fires up and works perfectly on the first try? Probably 1 in 3 times I build something. Though, it rarely takes more than 5-10 minutes of debugging to find the problem. I've never had any abortions.
If I'm doing any modifications to a design, I usually breadboard before building, unless the circuit is huge.
Oh styles, one thing for the phase 45. If you use J201's, you dont necessary need to match them (measure) for the p45. I went through about 10 and found 2 that i thought sounded best, just plugged them in, tested, "that one sounds good", next, etc. No measuring or anything. Cant do it with the p90 though i think you need to be more precise, so i hear.
Give it a go if you have some j201's lying around! Was really easy to get 2 x p45's going!
Paul
Projects with JFETs are a perennial source of difficulty with me. As I'm fond of saying, you wouldn't think it would be mathematically possible, but despite having only 3 pins, there are 827 ways to have the pinout of a JFET wrong.
make sure you have the datasheet on hand for the specific brand of JFET you bought, not just something with the same part number.
i've gotten almost all my builds to work...somewhere around 30 of 'em so far.
the only ones that really escaped me were escobedo's wobbletron, the one knob chorus of anchovie's (more a 2399 qc issue than a design flaw) and the kay fuzz. other than that, all of 'em at least passed signal once debugged...probably 40 percent have worked out of the gate.