Insight is beautiful... My BBD chips have 4s of delay

[ExpAnonColin]

It is helpful, though, to draw a clear boundary between those things which are of interest to folks who do wish to move beyond notes, and the needs and expectations of those folks who seem to pop up here every now and then hoping to squeeze digital-style delay times out of the measly little analog box they picked up somewhere cheap.

I'm not sure if it is readily implementable in what you have but there are a few schems out there which link lowpass filter settings to clock rate.

One of the interesting things you can do with your device, and maybe you've already done it, is to use the extended delay time to produce delayed envelopes.

Even neater, if you can find a way to modulate delay time, perhaps with a footpedal, not only can you use delayed envelopes, but you could stretch or squish them in time by simply adjusting delay time in real time.  

Well, I'm trying to get the best of both worlds here-so you can use this as a standard analog delay or use it to garble your sound.. because honestly the most avid users of analog delay are noiserockers and ambient guitarists, although the likes of led zepellin also used tape echo and what have you, but if you want delay like that, digital will suit you fine.

In order to link the clock rate and lowpass, I was planning on doing a dual ganged pot, of which the upper would be made with resistors on either end just right so that it would be right to get the right delay times, and the bottom would be just right with resistors on either end to get the right cutoff (trimpots will be a must because of resistor tolerances)

I've yet to do a delayed env. filter, which would be quite a bit of fun, but I'm working on echo right now

In terms of modulating delay times, that was actually one of my original "goals" with this design-a jack that had an external clock frequency oscillator with the rate controlled wah style and the high and low frequencies controlled by knobs on the side.  That's not going to be so easy, though, and I'm going to try to get it working as I'd like it to first before I go messing with waveform-based delay times.  That's what this weekend is for!

And if you ever want to discuss anything at all, email me at colin@experimentalistsanonymous.com . Thanks for not assuming that I don't know what I'm doing, it gets somewhat obnoxious, but we all tend to do it from time to time.

-Colin

[ExpAnonColin]

It is helpful, though, to draw a clear boundary between those things which are of interest to folks who do wish to move beyond notes, and the needs and expectations of those folks who seem to pop up here every now and then hoping to squeeze digital-style delay times out of the measly little analog box they picked up somewhere cheap.

I'm not sure if it is readily implementable in what you have but there are a few schems out there which link lowpass filter settings to clock rate.

One of the interesting things you can do with your device, and maybe you've already done it, is to use the extended delay time to produce delayed envelopes.

Even neater, if you can find a way to modulate delay time, perhaps with a footpedal, not only can you use delayed envelopes, but you could stretch or squish them in time by simply adjusting delay time in real time.  

Well, I'm trying to get the best of both worlds here-so you can use this as a standard analog delay or use it to garble your sound.. because honestly the most avid users of analog delay are noiserockers and ambient guitarists, although the likes of led zepellin also used tape echo and what have you, but if you want delay like that, digital will suit you fine.

In order to link the clock rate and lowpass, I was planning on doing a dual ganged pot, of which the upper would be made with resistors on either end just right so that it would be right to get the right delay times, and the bottom would be just right with resistors on either end to get the right cutoff (trimpots will be a must because of resistor tolerances)

I've yet to do a delayed env. filter, which would be quite a bit of fun, but I'm working on echo right now

In terms of modulating delay times, that was actually one of my original "goals" with this design-a jack that had an external clock frequency oscillator with the rate controlled wah style and the high and low frequencies controlled by knobs on the side.  That's not going to be so easy, though, and I'm going to try to get it working as I'd like it to first before I go messing with waveform-based delay times.  That's what this weekend is for!

And if you ever want to discuss anything at all, email me at colin@experimentalistsanonymous.com . Thanks for not assuming that I don't know what I'm doing, it gets somewhat obnoxious, but we all tend to do it from time to time.

-Colin

[Ansil]

so do you want to get rid of one or two.

[ExpAnonColin]

so do you want to get rid of one or two.

I  might if I ever get something going with it and I DONT want to manufacture them.  Then they'd be sold as kits

-Colin

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Mar H, that idea of a 'delayed envelope' is doing my head in.. I guess you could get the envelope, compress the originall signal, and then re-impress the 'original plus delayed' envelope on it..

[Mark Hammer]

Well I didn't mean to mess with your mind, Paul.  :lol:

What I'm thinking of is the capacity to defer the sweep a bit.  In some respects, the preferential use of foot control over delay would likely be compression of envelopes rather than stretching them out.  Especially with half-wave rectified envelopes, where the preferred solution to the ripple problem is to use a larger decay cap and longer decay time.  Being able to compress the envelope, though obviously a VERY complicated way of solving that problem, means you can have as long a decay as you want and just choose to sample out the envelope a little faster.

One of the things it also means is that you can have phrase driven, rather than pluck-driven, envelopes. Strum a chord three times - b-d-ling....b-d-ling....b-d-ling - wait a moment, twiddle the pedal and sample out faster, and your envelope now becomes ba-da-dat, which you can now use to impose sweeps of some sort as the third strum fades away.

Indeed, time manipulation of envelopes is a VERY interesting thing, and I thank Colin for kickstarting this thinking.

[ExpAnonColin]

Indeed, time manipulation of envelopes is a VERY interesting thing, and I thank Colin for kickstarting this thinking.

Now, what I'm definitely planning on doing is putting a send and return in the feedback loop so that you can put an octave in there... BBDs can be used for more than echo.. think of this at lower delay times, with the mix at 100%... it would go geoooooooop with octave down and geeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZ with octave up.  Que bueno.

-Colin

[ExpAnonColin]

Indeed, time manipulation of envelopes is a VERY interesting thing, and I thank Colin for kickstarting this thinking.

Now, what I'm definitely planning on doing is putting a send and return in the feedback loop so that you can put an octave in there... BBDs can be used for more than echo.. think of this at lower delay times, with the mix at 100%... it would go geoooooooop with octave down and geeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZ with octave up.  Que bueno.

-Colin

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Following from Mark H, what might be good is a device where you "freeze" an envelope & then manipulate it, similar to the way a tap tempo system lets you put in a time delay. But  a BBD won't keep the envelope all day.. maye a PT chip would??

[Greg Moss]

One of the interesting things you can do with your device, and maybe you've already done it, is to use the extended delay time to pt envelope to sweep the filter,

This would take the discussion out of the diy realm, but if you're not so interested in the actual audio fidelity of the signal controling the envelope, then you could just go digital with that application.  the "infinite repeat" or "hold" settings available on those units would give the effect somebody else here mentioned of "sampling" the envelope.

I dunno I have a bunch of cheap digital delays lying around, so before you know it the idea will be thieved by me!

Greg

[EliGold]

Hey check this out:

http://www.modcan.com/modhtml/modules.html
Click on Super Delay

2 MN3005's with 8s of delay and butterworth filters

Not really any technical data here, but this sounds like something y'all might be intersted in.

If I had $450 I'd get one just to open it up and see what's going on.

[ExpAnonColin]

Hey check this out:

http://www.modcan.com/modhtml/modules.html
Click on Super Delay

2 MN3005's with 8s of delay and butterworth filters

Not really any technical data here, but this sounds like something y'all might be intersted in.

If I had $450 I'd get one just to open it up and see what's going on.

Let's see... 2x 4,000 stage BBDs-8,000... meaning the clock frequency would be around 500 (500*2=1000, 8000/1000=8s) to get the 8s delay?  I suppose this proves that the datasheet is lying when it says the minimum is 10k.  Hmmm...  That signal would probably be pretty garbled by the time it got out of 8,000 stages at a rate of 1,000 stages/second... and they'd have to lowpass that at a pretty low frequency.  Surely I did the math wrong?

I'm basing this off the datasheet, which says that the maximum delay time in ms is 204.8 with one chip...  and that the minimum clock frequency is 10khz.  4048/10khz=404.8ms, not 204.8, so it must double the clock frequency, because 4048/20khz=204.8.... then 2 stages would be 8096/2x=8000 ms, where x = clock frequency in khz...
8000/8096=about 1
1/2=500hz.

Right?

-Colin

[Peter Snow]

Hi Eli,

No need to buy one and dismantle it.  That unit was designed by our own Mike Irwin.  Just ask him......

Peter