Found something really strange w/ DS-2... please help!

[otokomae]

OK, I've been working on this DS-2 pedal for a few weeks now (and have posted about a dozen questions about it and gotten lots of great advice), and now I've come across something by accident that is really freaking me out.  I took the pedal out of the original box to out it in a new box, and replaced the plastic BOSS footswitch w/ a Momentary SPDT from Smallbear.  I tested it w/ a multimeter and that seemed to be set-up fine, but I couldn't get the thing to turn on.  Then today, I was plugging a guitar cord into it (the BOSS pedals automatically turn on the LED when you plug into them) and I accidentally plugged each end of the same cord into both the INPUT and REMOTE plug-ins, and LED came on!!!  What on earth does tha mean???  

Anyway, I started looking at the inside, and wondered if it might have something to do with wire #14.  Here's a schematic:  http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/tom/files/DS-2.gif
Can anybody tell me what wire does and where it's supposed to go?  The reason I thought this might be the problem is, when I took the DS-2 out of it's original box, this wire was connected to the board, but the other end wasn't connected to anything.  I couldn't tell where it goes from the schematic, but I found an extra prong coming from the REMOTE plug-in that had a little solder on it, but nothing else connected to it, so I soldered this wire onto it, since there didn't appear to be any other open spaces to solder it onto, and in the schematic I thought it looked like it might connect to the REMOTE plug-in.  Of course, now the REMOTE plug-in turns on the LED light when I connect it to the INPUT, which it never did before and isn't supposed to do.  Can anyone give me any help with this one?  Thanks!

[otokomae]

OK, I'm an idiot.  I just looked at the schematic more carefully, and I think it goes to the INPUT.  I don't know what I was thinking before.  Still, if anybody looks at this schematic and thinks I'm wrong about connecting wire #14 to the INPUT, at the same point where the battery is connected, PLEASE let me know!  BTW, this is my first project, so I'm still learning how all this stuff works (like schematics and multimeters!)

[petemoore]

I'm not the best schematics reader around here but it looks like 14 indicates ground connection to the ring of the input jack, which carried the ground connetcion from PS's to circuit when a mono plug is inserted in the input jack.

[otokomae]

Yeah, I was wondering if that weird symbol at the end of the wire meant ground or not.  Ok, it looks to me (from looking at the pedal itself) that the wire is connected to the battery on the board, so how should I ground it?  Any guesses where the other end of this cord goes?  Any help is greatly apprecited here!

[niftydog]

ok, maybe I've misread you, but here's something that might help.

I believe your confusion comes about due to the arrangement of the input socket and the DC power socket.

The input socket is stereo. Your guitar leads plug is mono. When you plug a mono plug into a stereo socket, the ring and the sleeve connection of the socket are shorted together by the plug. This is a form of switch, and in many pedals this arrangement is used to connect the battery to the circuit (by connecting the negative lead of the battery to the ground of the circuit.)

Further to this, the DC jack also performs a switching task. With nothing in the DC socket, the internal switch is closed. The current from the battery passes through this switch, then through the stereo socket arrangement and on to the circuit. When you plug a DC power supply into the socket, you actuate that switch, dissconnecting the battery and replacing it with the DC power supply.

The "weird symbol" you mentioned is just their drawing of this switching arrangement.

Now, as for the loose wire. The remote connector should only have one wire to it - wire 17. (The ground connection is provided by virtue of the fact that it's mounted in a metal box.)

The input connector should have two wires going to it. One, wire 16(??) is the signal input. Wire 14 should be re-soldered to the point on the input socket that is shorted to ground ONLY when a plug is inserted.

[petemoore]

Not really sure what you're asking...
 Basically I test all ground points to be sure they're connected with a multimeter from battery clip or other known ground...BOSS you'll have to have a plug in the input...
 I'd just start simple and use a battery, you should see 0v at all grounds from ground and 9v at +V input of the opamps or anywhere on the + power rail....then the DC jack should...[here I'm not typeing from experience...]I think break the battery's + connection when the PS plug is inserted.

[otokomae]

Thanks guys!  I've figured out that it has NOTHING to do with the REMOTE jack (which is what everyone's been telling me for a week or so now), because I removed the jack altogether and it had no effect on the pedal or switch operation at all (and I never, ever use that jack anyway, so it just took up room inside the enclosure).  But still, the LED only comes on when a cord is used to connect the INPUT and OUTPUT jacks!!!  Oh, and that is with one end of wire #14 not connected to anything at all right now (it's just got one end connected to the board).  So, yeah, if I connect the INPUT and OUTPUT jacks w/ a guitar cord, the pedal turns on, but won't turn on otherwise.  What on earth does this mean?  

Oh, and there's no avilable space on the INPUT jack to connect to wire #14 to ground it.  Any ideas where it goes?  The schematic just seems to say "ground".  there's an extra prong on the OUTPUT jack, and one on the SPDT switch (I only needed to use 2 prongs, just like the BOSS switch that was there before).  Thanks!

[niftydog]

it is possible that TWO wires are supposed to be connected to ONE terminal on the input jack.

Looking at the schematic, wire 14 should be wired to the same point as the negative lead from the battery. This point should be somewhere on the input socket. Use a multimeter to find where the negative of the battery snap connects to the input socket and solder wire 14 to the same point.

[otokomae]

Well, that sounds entirely reasonable, so I'll go warm up the soldering iron and try it (I've already found where the Negative lead goes at the INPUT).  Really though, if someone had said standing on my head would help I probably would be doing that too right now.  Thanks!!!

[otokomae]

Hmmmm....  that doesn't seem to be doing it either.  I tried attaching it to each of the terminals on the INPUT and neither worked.

[petemoore]

Just a guess...the output jack has the ground lift [tip ring sleeve jack] lift 'switch'..I don't know of the insides of this BOSS pedal but some commercial units use the output jack to turn off the battery I think.
 I'd use the DMM beep mode to figure out if power is actually getting to the circuit when the battery is plugged in [and a plug is in the ground lift jack]...sometimes these things seem complicated...see I'm used to getting power to the board, then adding the ground lift jack arrangement.
 Did you try removing battery, then use the DMM to trace the power supply lines from the battery clip [+ then -].and try to find where/when power isn't getting through to the circuit?

[niftydog]

Hmmmm.... that doesn't seem to be doing it either. I tried attaching it to each of the terminals on the INPUT and neither worked.

ok, wait. stop everything and do this systematically. Stabbing in the dark is only going to end up in tears.

You say you've found where the negative of the battery connects to the input socket - you've wired wire 14 to this same point - you've inserted a guitar lead into the input and it still doesn't work?

Ok. LEAVE wire 14 there. That is absolutely, positively, undoubtedly where it SHOULD go according to the schematic.

Now, the input socket. It has the batterys negative connected to it. It has wire 14 connected to it. It should also have wire 16(??) (guitar signal) connected to it. Does it have any other wires connected to it?

I'm guessing that it does not.

Here's where your problem lies. By taking it out of it's metal case you have effectively disconnected the input socket from ground. The metal case would have made the connection between the input sockets ground and the output sockets ground. The only connection to the PCB ground is via the output sockets ground. Thus, when you connect a guitar cable from input to output you are re-establishing this ground connection.

You need a new wire to connect from the PCB ground (wire 19) to the sleeve terminal of the input socket.

You can test this first by simply shorting the sleeve connections of input and output sockets together. Either touch them both to a piece of metal or use a alligator clip lead or even just touch them together if they reach.

[otokomae]

Just thought I'd update this one, and let you guys know what happened.  It turns out that the last guy who posted (niftydog) was absolutely right, and I was just looking in all the wrong places.  I put the INPUT and OUTPUT jacks back in the enclosure and everything works fine.  I was just a bit thrown by the way Wire #14 looks on the schemaitc, because it appeared to me to be the ground for the INPUT jack, but since I couldn't get it to work I thought that it must have been the problem.  Anyway, thanks again to everybody who posted.  Another problem solved by the wonderful people who post on this board!  Thanks!!!

[yano]

It seems to me that wire 14 is meant to be connected to the pin of the DC jack, that is, it should be a ground wire.

[niftydog]

it's connected to the DC jack via a PCB track. The wire itself must go to the negative of the battery (or where the negative of the battery connects to the input socket) It becomes a ground wire only when a jack is inserted into the input socket.