Author Topic: Paper in oil caps  (Read 31972 times)

musiclikscreams

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2013, 08:57:02 PM »
any alternative suggestions?  i got a bunch of vero layin round waiting to be used

Do you just need boost, or do you also need dirt from the pedal?

-The beginner project here is dead simple and nevertheless impressive sounding.
-Smallbear's Ursa Major that Steve linked to will have far, far better distortion than the Em Drive with only a couple extra parts.
-AMZ's Mosfet Booster or Micro Booster are both excellent transparent boosts (if you don't need more dirt). I also love the Madbean Fatpants.
-Shameless plug: the "Clipper Ship" project on my web site has gotten some good marks from a couple people I trust. It's a little more complicated than the other three but will do just boost or just dirt as well. (And there's a PCB for it.)
-Not that I condone such things, but there are layouts for certain legendary "transparent overdrives" that only use a single dual op amp and have good bass and treble controls. The parts count is also really low on that one.

ya i wanted a low part count transparent overdrive pedal.  kind of a first stage drive... something i can leave on that gives a little dirt.  something with a smooth break up.
'
now i've been outa the diy scene for quite a while now... can u clue me in a little more on these "legendary 'transparent overdrives'" you speak of?  transparent is what i'm going for and, well, legendary... i'm always down for some of that

musiclikscreams

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2013, 09:02:17 PM »
btw... i wanted to thank you guys for all the help.  i've been around here on and off for the past 5 years and i can't remember dealing with any attitudes... just a bunch of helpful fellow DIYers

Jdansti

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2013, 12:18:00 AM »
>ya i wanted a low part count transparent overdrive pedal.  kind of a first stage drive... something i can leave on that gives a little dirt.  something with a smooth break up.

If you're feeling tooby, there's the Valvecaster. Low parts count and easy to build.

Sample clip with neck pickup:
1) Clean-Bypassed
2) Gain= 0%
3) Gain= 50%
4) Gain= 75%
5) Gain= 100%
6) Clean-Bypassed

https://soundcloud.com/john-danna/valvecaster-clean-50-75-100/s-sg2cn

Beavis Audio Valvecaster: http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/ValveCaster/

Forum: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=63479.0 (Happy reading! ;))

R.G. Keene: EXPECT there to be errors, and defeat them...

pappasmurfsharem

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2013, 12:56:20 AM »
any alternative suggestions?  i got a bunch of vero layin round waiting to be used

Do you just need boost, or do you also need dirt from the pedal?

-The beginner project here is dead simple and nevertheless impressive sounding.
-Smallbear's Ursa Major that Steve linked to will have far, far better distortion than the Em Drive with only a couple extra parts.
-AMZ's Mosfet Booster or Micro Booster are both excellent transparent boosts (if you don't need more dirt). I also love the Madbean Fatpants.
-Shameless plug: the "Clipper Ship" project on my web site has gotten some good marks from a couple people I trust. It's a little more complicated than the other three but will do just boost or just dirt as well. (And there's a PCB for it.)
-Not that I condone such things, but there are layouts for certain legendary "transparent overdrives" that only use a single dual op amp and have good bass and treble controls. The parts count is also really low on that one.

ya i wanted a low part count transparent overdrive pedal.  kind of a first stage drive... something i can leave on that gives a little dirt.  something with a smooth break up.
'
now i've been outa the diy scene for quite a while now... can u clue me in a little more on these "legendary 'transparent overdrives'" you speak of?  transparent is what i'm going for and, well, legendary... i'm always down for some of that

Yes what is the legendary transparent overdrive you speak of?
"I want to build a delay, but I don't have the time."

Phorhas

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2013, 02:51:18 AM »
Yes, all that science jive is nice - but what about tone ?!

PIO caps make me sound way better - equivalent to an extra 20 seconds of practice each day !

 ;)

Wow!  Think of how great you'd sound by practicing an extra whole minute every day! ;)

You mean 5x the PIO caps !
Electron Pusher

Jdansti

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2013, 02:54:15 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D
R.G. Keene: EXPECT there to be errors, and defeat them...

Johan

Re: Sv: Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2013, 03:15:40 PM »
Yes, all that science jive is nice - but what about tone ?!

PIO caps make me sound way better - equivalent to an extra 20 seconds of practice each day !

 ;)

Wow!  Think of how great you'd sound by practicing an extra whole minute every day! ;)

You mean 5x the PIO caps !
...i think it would take no more than 3 pio's to get him to the level of one minute...one pio=20sek, 1 minute=60sek..but how many pio's does it take to become a master?...1800000 if we are to believe another recent thread...j
DON'T PANIC

tca

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2013, 07:32:19 PM »
You can get some good OD sounds out the Ursa Minor circuit:

"The future is here, it's just not evenly distributed yet." -- William Gibson

kingswayguitar

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2013, 08:26:22 PM »
>ya i wanted a low part count transparent overdrive pedal.  kind of a first stage drive... something i can leave on that gives a little dirt.  something with a smooth break up.

If you're feeling tooby, there's the Valvecaster. Low parts count and easy to build.

Sample clip with neck pickup:
1) Clean-Bypassed
2) Gain= 0%
3) Gain= 50%
4) Gain= 75%
5) Gain= 100%
6) Clean-Bypassed

https://soundcloud.com/john-danna/valvecaster-clean-50-75-100/s-sg2cn

Beavis Audio Valvecaster: http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/ValveCaster/

Forum: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=63479.0 (Happy reading! ;))


sweet at 75%

Jdansti

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2013, 10:07:33 PM »
Thanks. I was recording direct, so I imagine it would sound much better driving a toob amp. :)
R.G. Keene: EXPECT there to be errors, and defeat them...

Thecomedian

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2013, 12:43:27 AM »
It'll work and sound just as boutiquey with regular caps, you know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=92G-jw4TqS4#at=601

material of guitar caps do have a sonic impact on sound, via how they pass the frequency ranges. I find PiO caps to be fuller in the mid-2nd harmonics coming from the low fundamentals being a little meatier with PiO, or is it the high frequencies die out slightly faster..
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 12:46:39 AM by Thecomedian »
If I can solve the problem for someone else, I've learned valuable skill and information that pays me back for helping someone else.

Thecomedian

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2013, 12:57:40 AM »
if current and wattage used are no object, I seem to get some good value taking the Orman Mini-booster, switching the fets to 2n3819, and taking the Rs and Cs feedback components off the bottom resistor and connecting the source of the 2n3819 on bottom direct to ground.

It has a very wide range of input voltage into a softer distortion/clip, but it costs 11mA instead if 0.9mA-6mA of current like the original mini-booster design.

any alternative suggestions?  i got a bunch of vero layin round waiting to be used

Do you just need boost, or do you also need dirt from the pedal?

-The beginner project here is dead simple and nevertheless impressive sounding.
-Smallbear's Ursa Major that Steve linked to will have far, far better distortion than the Em Drive with only a couple extra parts.
-AMZ's Mosfet Booster or Micro Booster are both excellent transparent boosts (if you don't need more dirt). I also love the Madbean Fatpants.
-Shameless plug: the "Clipper Ship" project on my web site has gotten some good marks from a couple people I trust. It's a little more complicated than the other three but will do just boost or just dirt as well. (And there's a PCB for it.)
-Not that I condone such things, but there are layouts for certain legendary "transparent overdrives" that only use a single dual op amp and have good bass and treble controls. The parts count is also really low on that one.

ya i wanted a low part count transparent overdrive pedal.  kind of a first stage drive... something i can leave on that gives a little dirt.  something with a smooth break up.
'
now i've been outa the diy scene for quite a while now... can u clue me in a little more on these "legendary 'transparent overdrives'" you speak of?  transparent is what i'm going for and, well, legendary... i'm always down for some of that

Yes what is the legendary transparent overdrive you speak of?

im piqued as to the term "transparent overdrive". Is it an electrical term meaning it doesn't modulate the signal in any other form than distorting/clipping, as in no frequency losses or gains? I've made something similar to that in a Spice file somewhere..
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 01:03:12 AM by Thecomedian »
If I can solve the problem for someone else, I've learned valuable skill and information that pays me back for helping someone else.

FiveseveN

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2013, 08:36:36 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=92G-jw4TqS4#at=601

Come on, there's a 34-page thread about the issue on the other forum and from all the capsniffers' arguments you decide to pick the least scientific "test" out there?! Make an effort, man!

Quote
frequency ranges
Caps don't understand "frequency", they only know about "impedance".

Quote
I find PiO caps to be fuller in the mid-2nd harmonics
Are you basing this on what you think you hear or some measurement? How do they know how to distinguish 2nd harmonics from fundamentals? Do your caps have DSP? Or is it ESP?
Does the circuit sound better when oriented to magnetic north under a pyramid?

midwayfair

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2013, 10:06:01 AM »
Quote

Yes what is the legendary transparent overdrive you speak of?

im piqued as to the term "transparent overdrive". Is it an electrical term meaning it doesn't modulate the signal in any other form than distorting/clipping, as in no frequency losses or gains? I've made something similar to that in a Spice file somewhere..

Go look up the term on TGP if you want to know what pedal I'm talking about. I'm not going to post about it and encourage someone to clone it. Let's just say it's a pretty famous pedal and the designer builds them himself and charges an extremely fair price for them.
My band, Midway Fair: www.midwayfair.org. Myself's music and things I make: www.jonpattonmusic.com. DIY pedal demos: www.youtube.com/jonspatton. PCBs of my Bearhug Compressor and Cardinal Harmonic Tremolo are available from http://www.1776Effects.com!

Thecomedian

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2013, 11:11:39 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=92G-jw4TqS4#at=601

Come on, there's a 34-page thread about the issue on the other forum and from all the capsniffers' arguments you decide to pick the least scientific "test" out there?! Make an effort, man!

Quote
frequency ranges
Caps don't understand "frequency", they only know about "impedance".

Quote
I find PiO caps to be fuller in the mid-2nd harmonics
Are you basing this on what you think you hear or some measurement? How do they know how to distinguish 2nd harmonics from fundamentals? Do your caps have DSP? Or is it ESP?

your snark not withstanding, you can capture images and verify the frequency specific behaviors of the caps side by side. Caps aren't intelligent objects. No, they don't understand frequency. Yes, they work on impedance. Yes impedance is Frequency dependent. Yes, caps do work on frequencies. Yes, hysteresis exists. Im basing it on what I think I hear, and then comparing what I think Im hearing to his live frequency charts.

Quote

Yes what is the legendary transparent overdrive you speak of?

im piqued as to the term "transparent overdrive". Is it an electrical term meaning it doesn't modulate the signal in any other form than distorting/clipping, as in no frequency losses or gains? I've made something similar to that in a Spice file somewhere..

Go look up the term on TGP if you want to know what pedal I'm talking about. I'm not going to post about it and encourage someone to clone it. Let's just say it's a pretty famous pedal and the designer builds them himself and charges an extremely fair price for them.

Im not sure what TGP is.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 11:14:25 PM by Thecomedian »
If I can solve the problem for someone else, I've learned valuable skill and information that pays me back for helping someone else.

FiveseveN

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2013, 12:35:06 AM »
you can capture images and verify the frequency specific behaviors of the caps side by side.
Sure you can, but that is not the way to do it. Where the "test" goes wrong:
1. Variations in playing, which accounts for most of the error and completely nullifies the point of the experiment.
2. Constructive tolerances and drift. You can see the actual measured values of the caps in part 3.
3. The Bode plot is a joke. Not enough resolution or peak hold time (which is hard to read anyway).
4. The signal suffers further filtering and distortion (from the ampsim, though it's a "clean" model, from the speaker and mic) which obfuscates the caps' influence.
Of course 2, 3 and 4 become irrelevant because of 1.
Also you can't compare 7 sounds by just stringing 3 second samples one after the other. By the time you've heard the third you would have forgotten the first.

So yes, caps, like any other parts, have nonlinearities and parasitics, and they can and are measured (see a datasheet/app note/white paper). We can also devise rigurous tests to determine if these effects have an audible impact in a certain application. Sadly no such rigurous tests actually exist, probably because nobody takes capsniffers seriously.
Does the circuit sound better when oriented to magnetic north under a pyramid?

psychedelicfish

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2013, 12:39:36 AM »
you can capture images and verify the frequency specific behaviors of the caps side by side.
Sure you can, but that is not the way to do it. Where the "test" goes wrong:
1. Variations in playing, which accounts for most of the error and completely nullifies the point of the experiment.
Surely if you were testing frequency specific behaviours of various caps you'd be using a sine wave generator, thus eliminating variations in playing?
If at first you don't succeed... use bigger transistors!

Thecomedian

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2013, 12:49:24 AM »
On the other hand, you're thoroughly convinced, on complete lack of any evidence, that caps DONT cause audio differences, when you're saying that no such rigorous test exists to either prove or disprove it. Maybe you didn't watch or listen at the point where he had visual simulation of signal strength for bands of frequency. Those aren't bode plots. I'm more inclined to believe at least some evidence rather than believe in the opposite case when there is no evidence proving or disproving the opposite case. Your position is an argumentum ad ignorantiam, wrapped up in question begging.
If I can solve the problem for someone else, I've learned valuable skill and information that pays me back for helping someone else.

Thecomedian

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2013, 01:00:21 AM »
you can capture images and verify the frequency specific behaviors of the caps side by side.
Sure you can, but that is not the way to do it. Where the "test" goes wrong:
1. Variations in playing, which accounts for most of the error and completely nullifies the point of the experiment.
Surely if you were testing frequency specific behaviours of various caps you'd be using a sine wave generator, thus eliminating variations in playing?

Quote
We can also devise rigurous tests to determine if these effects have an audible impact in a certain application. Sadly no such rigurous tests actually exist, probably because nobody takes capsniffers seriously.

Even if you proved that various caps have differences, such as the hysteresis tests done by some people, it's still not enough evidence for him because it doesn't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that such differences are sonically noticeable by human ears. Anyone who hears differences in sound is obviously delusional, despite the fact that tone deafness is a real thing which exists, in the form of neurological disorders or brain damage, or lack of training and fine tuning.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/systems/ear/tone-deaf1.htm

If we suppose that he is personally crusading against the idea of caps making a sonic difference, because he cannot hear difference himself, we could conclude that he is tone deaf and committing an argument from incredulity. Again, there is no evidence to support his claims or condemn the claims of proponents of cap "mojo" types, however, there is evidence that cap material and even the voltage rating has an effect on the way it modifies the signal.

It's unthinkable to consider that caps have such huge effects on frequencies of a signal due to the mere capacitance factor, and yet have absolutely no effect, not even minimal effects, due to all the other small differences in caps. It's like Boolean logic: if it's not 1, it must be 0. We don't live in a digital world.
If I can solve the problem for someone else, I've learned valuable skill and information that pays me back for helping someone else.

Gus

Re: Paper in oil caps
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2013, 06:27:11 AM »
So yes, caps, like any other parts, have nonlinearities and parasitics, and they can and are measured (see a datasheet/app note/white paper). We can also devise rigurous tests to determine if these effects have an audible impact in a certain application. Sadly no such rigurous tests actually exist, probably because nobody takes capsniffers seriously.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2610442/Capacitor-Sound