PCB Paper Options

[pappasmurfsharem]

Probably not a good idea to use wax paper in a printer.

It's even more interesting what happens when you iron wax paper onto cleaned copper. I'm guessing that it will melt the wax onto the copper everywhere, not just where the toner is.

Common food-grade waxes melt lower than toner.

Well maybe better to hold off.  I thought toner/fuser was in the 180F range.  I do have a barely working 1996 super streaky laser printer at work to use that came from the scrap pile.  So, there wouldn't be any harm done if it breathed it's last.

CHAD

The melting temperatures of toner powders are located between 80°C(176°F) and 150°C (302°F).

180°F would be on the extreme low side of that. 82.2°C

It really all depends on the toner.

Although thinking about it. Does wax paper melt in boiling water 212°F ?  

However I don't think it's worth the gamble. You more than likely don't know what temperature your laser gets to melt it's toner. Also There wouldn't be any real benefit that I could think of over Parchment Paper.

Parchement cooking paper is generally silicon impregnated and can handle 420°F reliably.

[seedlings]

Probably not a good idea to use wax paper in a printer.

It's even more interesting what happens when you iron wax paper onto cleaned copper. I'm guessing that it will melt the wax onto the copper everywhere, not just where the toner is.

Common food-grade waxes melt lower than toner.

Well maybe better to hold off.  I thought toner/fuser was in the 180F range.  I do have a barely working 1996 super streaky laser printer at work to use that came from the scrap pile.  So, there wouldn't be any harm done if it breathed it's last.

CHAD

The melting temperatures of toner powders are located between 80°C(176°F) and 150°C (302°F).

180°F would be on the extreme low side of that. 82.2°C

It really all depends on the toner.

Although thinking about it. Does wax paper melt in boiling water 212°F ?  

However I don't think it's worth the gamble. You more than likely don't know what temperature your laser gets to melt it's toner. Also There wouldn't be any real benefit that I could think of over Parchment Paper.

Parchement cooking paper is generally silicon impregnated and can handle 420°F reliably.

Flatline compressor PCB from the stock DIYLC files.

HP Laserjet 4V, in poor working order

Left is regular copy paper, this is the standard print-out quality for this printer, so accept it as good.  Center is Parchment paper, cut to 8.5x11.  I learned my lesson, so the right is a small piece of wax paper taped to a standard copy sheet.  The black squiggle on the far right is the melted packaging tape, but the wax paper passed through unmelted, in good shape.

I can't say whether the wax paper would work in all printers, but if this printer were in proper operating order, I'd try it out.



CHAD

[pappasmurfsharem]

Flatline compressor PCB from the stock DIYLC files.

HP Laserjet 4V, in poor working order

Left is regular copy paper, this is the standard print-out quality for this printer, so accept it as good.  Center is Parchment paper, cut to 8.5x11.  I learned my lesson, so the right is a small piece of wax paper taped to a standard copy sheet.  The black squiggle on the far right is the melted packaging tape, but the wax paper passed through unmelted, in good shape.

I can't say whether the wax paper would work in all printers, but if this printer were in proper operating order, I'd try it out.



CHAD

I assume the parchment paper wasn't taped to another sheet of typical A4?

[GGBB]

Parchement cooking paper is generally silicon impregnated and can handle 420°F reliably.

I may be wrong (couldn't find an answer on Google), but doesn't silicone impregnate the surface of bare metals?  And wouldn't that be a bad thing for copper boards, either for etching or soldering?

[Mark Hammer]

Just out of curiosity, does the toner in all monochrome laser printers fuse atthe same temperature, and the only differences are in the mechanics/shape of the toner cartridge, or are there potentially different temperatures at play here, depending on what brand/model of printer one is using.

I ask this because if there WERE such differences, you'd expect different media to have different degrees of success, depending on what printer each person who says "X did/didn't work for me" might have been using.

And let me be clear, I have no idea about any of this.  I'm just trying to figure out why some folks use onekind of paper while somebody else uses another.  We might be talking about differing criteria for "good transfer", or we might be talking about something else. 

[GGBB]

Just out of curiosity, does the toner in all monochrome laser printers fuse atthe same temperature, and the only differences are in the mechanics/shape of the toner cartridge, or are there potentially different temperatures at play here, depending on what brand/model of printer one is using.

I ask this because if there WERE such differences, you'd expect different media to have different degrees of success, depending on what printer each person who says "X did/didn't work for me" might have been using.

And let me be clear, I have no idea about any of this.  I'm just trying to figure out why some folks use onekind of paper while somebody else uses another.  We might be talking about differing criteria for "good transfer", or we might be talking about something else. 

I don't know a lot about this but I do know that the fuser temperature is related to the thickness of the fuser material and the print speed.  The faster the printer, the less time that the fuser has in contact with the paper therefore the hotter it needs to be (I think).

[seedlings]

I assume the parchment paper wasn't taped to another sheet of typical A4?

Parchment full sheet was taped to a full sheet of copy paper along the leading edge.  It appears that the tape melted off, which caused the jam.

CHAD

[defaced]

Just out of curiosity, does the toner in all monochrome laser printers fuse atthe same temperature, and the only differences are in the mechanics/shape of the toner cartridge, or are there potentially different temperatures at play here, depending on what brand/model of printer one is using.

I ask this because if there WERE such differences, you'd expect different media to have different degrees of success, depending on what printer each person who says "X did/didn't work for me" might have been using.

And let me be clear, I have no idea about any of this.  I'm just trying to figure out why some folks use onekind of paper while somebody else uses another.  We might be talking about differing criteria for "good transfer", or we might be talking about something else. 

This is a known variable and has been discussed at length, but only qualitatively (though for the first time I've seen, pappasmurfsharem gave some melting temp numbers a few posts up):

The melting temperatures of toner powders are located between 80°C(176°F) and 150°C (302°F).

[Mark Hammer]

This is a known variable and has been discussed at length, but only qualitatively (though for the first time I've seen, pappasmurfsharem gave some melting temp numbers a few posts up):

The melting temperatures of toner powders are located between 80°C(176°F) and 150°C (302°F).

So I guess the question it provokes is what paper types go with what printers.

[defaced]

Not only paper, but iron temp, hold time, pressure, copper clad surface condition, cool off time/temp, dip time/temp (assuming water submersion), etc.  It's a deceptively complicated process to control effectively. 

[seedlings]

Not only paper, but iron temp, hold time, pressure, copper clad surface condition, cool off time/temp, dip time/temp (assuming water submersion), etc.  It's a deceptively complicated process to control effectively.  

Someone might say 'just get a laminator'.  Which will come with it's own set of machine-specific variables.

Here's the entire, easy 10-step, failproof process:
1) get a layout, properly sized when printed
2) find another laser printer
3) find another type of paper
4) print the layout on the latest current chosen paper on the current chosen printer
5) find another method to clean the copper PCB
6) find another method to iron or laminate the toner to the PCB
7) find another method to remove the paper only (not the toner) from the PCB.  If the toner does not fully stick to the PCB, return to step 6, 5, 4, 3, or 2.
8) find another method to etch the pcb in another solution.  If the board does not etch satisfactorily, return to step 6, 5, 4, 3, or 2.
9) find another method to clean the toner off of the etched PCB.  If the toner will not come off, return to step 9.
10) drill and populate the board.

CHAD

[pappasmurfsharem]

Parchement cooking paper is generally silicon impregnated and can handle 420°F reliably.

I may be wrong (couldn't find an answer on Google), but doesn't silicone impregnate the surface of bare metals?  And wouldn't that be a bad thing for copper boards, either for etching or soldering?

Assuming this is correct: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_hot_does_a_clothes_iron_get

A clothes iron can range from 100°C to 200°C possibly hotter if left in one spot for a long time period

200°C is 392°F

and silicon parchment paper supposedly can handle 215°C (420° F)

So I imagine if what you said is true, as long as you leave the iron on top of the copper for an extreme amount of time it wouldn't really matter as the silicon wouldn't hit melting point.

Just out of curiosity, does the toner in all monochrome laser printers fuse atthe same temperature, and the only differences are in the mechanics/shape of the toner cartridge, or are there potentially different temperatures at play here, depending on what brand/model of printer one is using.

I ask this because if there WERE such differences, you'd expect different media to have different degrees of success, depending on what printer each person who says "X did/didn't work for me" might have been using.

And let me be clear, I have no idea about any of this.  I'm just trying to figure out why some folks use onekind of paper while somebody else uses another.  We might be talking about differing criteria for "good transfer", or we might be talking about something else.  

This is a known variable and has been discussed at length, but only qualitatively (though for the first time I've seen, pappasmurfsharem gave some melting temp numbers a few posts up):

The melting temperatures of toner powders are located between 80°C(176°F) and 150°C (302°F).

I'm not a guru of toner that is just the information I was able to find for the most part.

There is obviously going to be variance depending on the use, so as Sir Hammer said. It really will depend on the brand of printer, USE of printer (industrial vs desktop and all areas in between) and the type of material used in the toner.

For example another posted above that HP Glossy Photo works for them, which is what I have and I find that its a PITA to remove from the board. The glossy coating ends up fusing with the board and it's so thick that I can't tell when/if the toner has transferred.

I currently and using a SAMSUNG ML Series ML-2165 that I grabbed for $69.99 from amazon. It seems to work well enough, definitely need better paper than the HP paper I bought though. I'm going to try parchment when the little ones go to their grandma's this weekend.

[defaced]

Not only paper, but iron temp, hold time, pressure, copper clad surface condition, cool off time/temp, dip time/temp (assuming water submersion), etc.  It's a deceptively complicated process to control effectively.  

Someone might say 'just get a laminator'.  Which will come with it's own set of machine-specific variables.

Here's the entire, easy 10-step, failproof process:
1) get a layout, properly sized when printed
2) find another laser printer
3) find another type of paper
4) print the layout on the latest current chosen paper on the current chosen printer
5) find another method to clean the copper PCB
6) find another method to iron or laminate the toner to the PCB
7) find another method to remove the paper only (not the toner) from the PCB.  If the toner does not fully stick to the PCB, return to step 6, 5, 4, 3, or 2.
find another method to etch the pcb in another solution.  If the board does not etch satisfactorily, return to step 6, 5, 4, 3, or 2.
9) find another method to clean the toner off of the etched PCB.  If the toner will not come off, return to step 9.
10) drill and populate the board.

CHAD

I've been trying to get a procedure done for this for almost 7 years now and that's about the gist of it.  I have all but completely given up on toner transfer, but I figure for 5 bucks, I'll try to Polaroid photo paper mentioned earlier in the thread and give this whole thing a try - again.  I doubt much will change since I have one of the dreaded Brother brand printers, but I'm willing to be disappointed one more time. 

[seedlings]

I've been trying to get a procedure done for this for almost 7 years now and that's about the gist of it.  I have all but completely given up on toner transfer, but I figure for 5 bucks, I'll try to Polaroid photo paper mentioned earlier in the thread and give this whole thing a try - again.  I doubt much will change since I have one of the dreaded Brother brand printers, but I'm willing to be disappointed one more time. 

That exact Polaroid photo paper is for sale at my local Dollar Tree (everything is $1) store.  I recently used it to make my very first PCB etch.  I used the same printer (xerox), same PCB prep (0000 steel wool and actone), the same iron, the same length of time (4 minutes, timed exactly), same ironing procedure (press iron flat for 2:00, then alternate between iron tip pressure swirls and complete iron flat pressure for the remaining 2 min), the same soaking procedure (soak in water and dishsoap for a few minutes, lightly tear some paper off, soak more, lightly rub paper off, soak more, get a toothbrush and scrub, soak more, rub with thumb, soak more, get a toothpick to scrape between traces), and the same etchant solution of HCL (32%) and H202(3%) 1:2 respectively, freshly mixed.

What I changed besides paper... I put the iron on the prepared copper for a couple of un-timed minutes, then removed the iron and carefully matched one corner of the print with the corner of the hot copper PCB, and laid the rest of the print down.  No tape at all.  One piece of copy paper between the print and the iron for the rest of the iron process.  This was 95% effective, with three small trace lift-offs (my most common problem), that were fixed with sharpie marker.

I have not repeated this process, so I don't know if it was a genuine recipe, or a miracle from God.

CHAD

[defaced]

the same soaking procedure (soak in water and dishsoap for a few minutes, lightly tear some paper off, soak more, lightly rub paper off, soak more, get a toothbrush and scrub, soak more, rub with thumb, soak more, get a toothpick to scrape between traces),

Welp, answer that question, this paper is probably going to fail the "do I have the patience to do this" test. 

[seedlings]

the same soaking procedure (soak in water and dishsoap for a few minutes, lightly tear some paper off, soak more, lightly rub paper off, soak more, get a toothbrush and scrub, soak more, rub with thumb, soak more, get a toothpick to scrape between traces),

Welp, answer that question, this paper is probably going to fail the "do I have the patience to do this" test.  

Soak it overnight...?  I don't have patience either... until.... there's light at the end of the tunnel.  After this rigmarole, I will put the next PCB in soap/water solution overnight and maybe it will be like
[sound effect]*magic*[/sound effect].  
I intentionally scrubbed too hard and too early, just to see if the toner would flake off.

CHAD

[defaced]

Done that.  I've even tried soaking paper in a weak base solution (like drain cleaner) to dissolve the paper.  No love.  I suspect the issue is the glossy coating is what has to be removed from the board, which being clay based if I remember right, won't dissolve in water.  Some people claim finding paper that releases completely from the toner/board.  If I'm going to do toner, that's what I want (along with 10 mil traces and nice solid coverage on copper pours), otherwise it's all photo for me. 

[seedlings]

Done that.  I've even tried soaking paper in a weak base solution (like drain cleaner) to dissolve the paper.  No love.  I suspect the issue is the glossy coating is what has to be removed from the board, which being clay based if I remember right, won't dissolve in water.  Some people claim finding paper that releases completely from the toner/board.  If I'm going to do toner, that's what I want (along with 10 mil traces and nice solid coverage on copper pours), otherwise it's all photo for me. 

I hate to (continue to) pirate this thread, but I would be very interested in your photo method.  Heck, I'd much rather do photo than this or vero.  I've been watching videos, reading posts, blogs and the smallbear how-to article.  Do you use the lye-and-water developer, or a pre-packaged solution?

CHAD

[defaced]

I did a full write up on the process on a different forum: www.byocelectronics.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=43424&p=377808
This was my first project with it: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=99142.msg879595#msg879595

I plan to spend some time working with the film application more this fall/winter (thought I think doing a board as large as that one to start was part of the problem).  I haven't done a board since that one, but I have some projects in mind that I might decide to do a DIY board for.  Not sure yet. 

[CodeMonk]

One of the ironic aspects, of course, is that if photo paper was openly spec'd for thickness in a clear way, the specs which are appealing to US, as PCB etchers, would be entirely unappealing to folks who use photopaper for.....um, photos.  I would imagine for archival and durability purposes, if printing photos, you want nice thick sturdy paper.  If you want to iron black toner transfer, you want thin flimsy stuff....not exactly the sort of trait you want to advertize on the package!

We have a couple professional photo places just up the street from work.  I may stroll over there and ask about my choices in photo paper.

Like I said, I've had really good luck with glossy presentation paper.
Its thin.
It transfers well.
Its about 1/3 (Or less) the cost of photo paper.

As for soaking, I usually drop it in the bucket, then go and do other stuff for 45 minutes or so.
Peel off some paper.
Use thumb to get most of the rest of it off.
Use a medium stiffness toothbrush to get between the traces and pads. Both directions, circular, etc. Don't be afraid to get a little aggressive, but practice.


How I prep my copper:
1. NEVER let your fingers touch the surface of the PCB.
2. AND ALWAYS wear nitrile/latex/ etc. gloves. (I prefer nitrile myself).
3. clean with 400 grit abrasive using a circular motion. Dry not wet.
4. finish up with #0000 steel wool. Circular motion as well.
5. clean with acetone and paper shop towels. And keep cleaning until you see NO DIRT on the paper towel.
6. NEVER let your fingers touch the surface of the PCB.


As for transferring, I set my iron at max (its a $4 walmart iron).
I lay my PCB on a flat piece of 3/4 MDF. Make sure its flat. And also wipe it down with acetone (I do a lot of double sided boards).
Apply pressure, in a yet again circular motion (I'm getting dizzy here  )
Pressure and timing are critical and just takes practice and patience. The larger the PCB, the longer it takes.