Author Topic: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger  (Read 918 times)

pinkjimiphoton

  • Poster2
  • **
  • Posts: 6066
  • Total likes: 360
  • High priest, Cult of Germanium, and Dudeist Monk
    • odds are i'm probably banned  here...
need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« on: December 24, 2017, 08:29:14 PM »
project
http://lectric-fx.com/product/flintlock-flanger/




schematic



its passing audio, but i'm getting a hell of a clock whine that i can't adjust away.
tried adding the small cap it states is optional, it seems to make it worse
i tried every mn3007 in the house, and all of them were successfully auditioned in various clone theories and worked.

i went ahead and unboxed it and reflowed everything, and used some denatured alcohol to clean up flux  off it. not sure if that was the best idea, seemed to react a little with the plastic.

turning trimmers makes no effect whatsoever, the bias for the bbd fully ccw gets distorted then cuts out. thru the rest of the bias range, no real change once clean signal is achieved.

ok, so voltages
power supply, 9.6v wall wart

ic1, 4558 SIP
1  7.09
2  7.09
3  6.45
4  0
5  4.81
6  4.84
7  4.84
8  14.17

ic2, 4558 sip
1  4,79
2  4,79
3  4.77
4   0
5  7.08
6  7.07
7  7.07
8  14.17

ic3, 4558 sip
1  8,91
2  7.07
3  7.07
4  0
5  7.02
6  7.08
7  7.08
8  14.17

ic4, 1458
1  1.59
2  7.32
3  modulating up and down
4  0
5  7.085
6  7.08
7  modulating up and down
8  12.85

ic 5, 4007
1  - 9 0.0
10  4.04v
11  14.04
12  7.13
13  7.43
14  14.93

ic 6, 4047
1  7.50
2  7.43
3  7.13
4  14.93
5  14.93
6  14.93
7  0
8  0
9  0
10   7.46
11  7.46
12  0
13  7.47
14  14.93

ic7, 5817
in  17.80
m  0
out  14.93

1c 8, 4558 sip
1  13.99
2  12.17
3  12.10
4  12.78
5  13.62
6  13.01
7  14.04
8  14.73

ic 9, 4049
1  14.93
2  7.46
3  7.46
4  7.46
5  7,46
6  7,46
7  0
8  0
9  7.46
10  0
11  7.46
12  7.46
13  7.46
14  0

ic 10, mn2007
1  14.75
2  7.46
3  7.46
4  4.85
5  0
6  7.45
7  2.69
8   2.69

ic 11, 7660
1  0
2  4.42
3  0
4  0
5  0
6  5.18
7  6.0 
8  9.74  (this doesn't seem right to me at all, but i'm getting 15v at the test points)

ic 12, 4558 sip
1  7.07
2  7.07
3  7.07
4  0
5  7.05
6  7.07
7  7.08
8  14.17

1c 13, 4558 sip
1  8.91
2  7.08
3  7.07
4  0
5  7.02
6  7.08
7  7.08
8  14.17

q1, jfet 2n9592
g  7.06
s  7.08
d  7.07 (also looks weird to me)

stumped as usual!!! any help appreciated!!
i may have to take some new voltage readings, i had socketed all the 4558's but they're just too unstable that way so i took all the sockets out and hard soldered them in.
the bbd clock etc are all socketed.

thanks peeps!!




digi2t:
"Fuzz, distortion, and wah, are plenty abound. Mutron Flanger, not so much.  8)"
#FuzzyGoodness

Aph

Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2017, 09:35:27 PM »
I just got done making one of those. I think you're getting clock heterodyning between the voltage converter and the BBD clock (the 4047). There was no way I was able to get rid of it. I finally modified an old power adaptor to get 20 volts out of it. As long as you have the correct polarity, just take out the LT1054 and you can plug this higher voltage right into the power jack. That solved the problem for me.
The power adaptor I cracked open had a 15 volt secondary, so this is what I did to it:


« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 09:46:03 PM by Aph »

Scruffie

Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2017, 10:07:43 PM »
Shouldn't heterodyne, plenty of people have built it without that problem... does it sound more like a whine or a scrambled chirpy noise?

First things first, you say you're using a 7660? That wont work, it doesn't put out enough current for the circuit, you have to use a LT1054.

You have some odd voltages in places too... pin 4 of the 3007 should be ~1V so you might have used a wrong value for the divider going to it, pins 7&8 shouldn't be that low, not sure why you have 8.9V on pin 1 of IC3 & 13.

The only trimmers that will affect clock noise are the C-Range & C-Max, if you have the bottom clock frequency set too low you will definitely get noise.

One other thing, I can't tell in your photo if some of those caps are Tantalums? If you got them from Tayda depending on where you used them you might wanna think about replacing them, i've had problems with them not filtering properly before.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 10:15:38 PM by Scruffie »

pinkjimiphoton

  • Poster2
  • **
  • Posts: 6066
  • Total likes: 360
  • High priest, Cult of Germanium, and Dudeist Monk
    • odds are i'm probably banned  here...
Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2017, 11:37:51 PM »
its like a high pitched theremin kinda noise, it seems to be going endlessly, tho sometimes it  seems to almost go away.
depending on its angle, the proximity of my hand, cycle of the werewolf, wolfbane and crap like that. really weird.
it seems to happen when the charge pump is pulled out, too, which kinda surprised me.
bugger on the 7660, its all i could find at the time. i ordered a couple LT1054's from small bear with a couple other oddities i needed. i'm wondering if thats the same issue i was having with the honeydripper i recently built. brain death strikes after a 19 hour day tho so..
i DO have a dunlop 18v power supply i could try it on tomorrow.
i'm looking thru the rubble in the bottom of my ic drawer to see if i can find any other charge pumps, i know theres some max1044's kicking around from another project long ago somewhere.
tantalums from tayda no good, huh? funny, i was kinda thinking the same thing. some seem to be quite microphonic.
i can try replacing them too i suppose, just don't wanna rework the board to death if not necessary, eventually the "to death" part applies and i need to make this suckah work.
so guess i gotta wait a few days for parts.
thanks gents!
MERRY CHRISTMAS or whatever floats your boats. have a kewl yule!
PjP
digi2t:
"Fuzz, distortion, and wah, are plenty abound. Mutron Flanger, not so much.  8)"
#FuzzyGoodness

Scruffie

Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2017, 12:15:16 PM »
The Tayda tantalums are probably fine in most spots but I wouldn't trust them for any filtering jobs, especially C29 which ideally should be ceramic. It depends where you used them and it's also possible I just got a bad batch and your issue will be solved elsewhere, i've said it before and i'll say it again, you can't debug with random part replacement, have to go in order so don't worry about reworking the board to death yet.

So first things first, you need the right charge pump (or to try your 18V supply out) a MAX1044 wont cut it either, really does have to be a LT1054 but that does remind me regarding your Honeydripper problem, I did have whine problems with an overdrive circuit with a charge pump that came from, you guessed it, Tayda... as soon as I put in a charge pump from another source, it was silent.

And hope you have a good Christmas too :)

pinkjimiphoton

  • Poster2
  • **
  • Posts: 6066
  • Total likes: 360
  • High priest, Cult of Germanium, and Dudeist Monk
    • odds are i'm probably banned  here...
Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2017, 12:54:24 PM »
i'm betting its the charge pump causing the issues. thanks for the support scruff!
i imagine it will be a week before they come in. in the mean time i guess i will hold off on this until then.
i MAY try the 18v wart and see if it fires... if it does, i guess that will tell the problem.

yeah, i've found it quite common for chip based effects to just whine if the power isn't beefy enough, i bet ya nailed it!!
 
time will tell. ;)

peace!

and as a side note, while looking thru stuff, i found a whole damn bag of the specc'd regulators. go figure. time to organize my work are methinks!!! lol
digi2t:
"Fuzz, distortion, and wah, are plenty abound. Mutron Flanger, not so much.  8)"
#FuzzyGoodness

pinkjimiphoton

  • Poster2
  • **
  • Posts: 6066
  • Total likes: 360
  • High priest, Cult of Germanium, and Dudeist Monk
    • odds are i'm probably banned  here...
Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2017, 07:25:56 PM »
i bypassed the charge pump and ran it on 18v, same exact thing. nothing works at all, but its gotta hell of a whine to it.
i just reflowed everything on the board, and printed a  HUGE schematic, as the one in the build doc is just too small for me to see.

i will mess with it more later, but expect i gotta wait for the parts to come in. i ordered a couple 3007's in case these ones went bunk.
digi2t:
"Fuzz, distortion, and wah, are plenty abound. Mutron Flanger, not so much.  8)"
#FuzzyGoodness

Scruffie

Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2017, 06:22:08 AM »
Oh so you're not getting any flanging at all, okay, it's not heterodyning for sure then.

Right, check the values of R59 & 60.

The 3007 wont have magically died unless you didn't take ESD precautions, don't assume they're dead.

And did you follow the set up instructions to the letter?

diffeq

Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2017, 07:29:45 AM »
With my limited experience, I can say that op-amps can oscillate like that too. I was making a liitle headphone amp and had the same high-pitched whine that was muting when one of electrolyte caps was touched. Remove BBDs and digital ICs, leaving only op-amps in.

Scruffie

Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2017, 08:16:29 AM »
With my limited experience, I can say that op-amps can oscillate like that too. I was making a liitle headphone amp and had the same high-pitched whine that was muting when one of electrolyte caps was touched. Remove BBDs and digital ICs, leaving only op-amps in.
While that's a possibility, I don't think testing that will give much info at the moment as there's several areas that need addressing first, the BBD has odd voltages and IC8 looks wrong, I would check for a short round it... are you using the expression jack and if not, did you remember to jump the C & S pads.

pinkjimiphoton

  • Poster2
  • **
  • Posts: 6066
  • Total likes: 360
  • High priest, Cult of Germanium, and Dudeist Monk
    • odds are i'm probably banned  here...
Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2017, 12:45:37 PM »
sorry guys for the delay, no way i can get to it right now, but yeah, pulling the bbd out it still whines. pulling the charge pump out, it still whines.

something weird. may be a day or two...
'sides, i'm waiting on parts.

i did try to follow the instructions, but nothing makes a lick of difference. all i get is the dry guitar and that annoying whine.

i tried all 8 of the 3007's i have, one of which is the nte equiv... all worked in my clone theories.

weird stuff.

i agree with opamps, sometimes they can whine just by themselves.  i tried using a 100u cap to ground from various pins, makes no difference.

wondering if perhaps i smoked the board itself... its really hard to follow the traces on a black board once it's been soldered.
digi2t:
"Fuzz, distortion, and wah, are plenty abound. Mutron Flanger, not so much.  8)"
#FuzzyGoodness

Scruffie

Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2017, 01:02:24 PM »
Okay now we're getting somewhere, forget about the 3007 and charge pump for the moment.

So when you say nothing makes a lick of difference does that mean you get no clock frequency change at the test point, is that correct? Or are you trying to do this by ear in which case does the pitch of the whine change if you adjust the C-Range & Max trims? The problem is definitely around IC8 and the clock area.

pinkjimiphoton

  • Poster2
  • **
  • Posts: 6066
  • Total likes: 360
  • High priest, Cult of Germanium, and Dudeist Monk
    • odds are i'm probably banned  here...
Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2017, 01:13:08 PM »
adjusting any of the trimmers makes no difference, other than the bias one which will starve the bbd almost fully ccw. if i have a very distorted  signal there, the  range trimmers make a very very minimal effect.. as soon as ya raise that bias, its completely mitigated again. its weird. the whine changes depending on my proximity to the circuit, the angle, etc etc.
i do have 15v at the test point.
sadly, my meter's frequency only reads to 20k, so i need to do it by ear, unless i can do it with my oscilloscope (that i still have never messed with enough to figure out). so trying to do it by ear.
but it doesn't matter, as none of the trmmers do anything.
the "enhance" trimmer DOES seem to have a bit of effect on the feedback whine a little, but... not much.
sometimes it seems like i can almost hear a little flanging in the background, but i think its wishful thinking.
also, seems the bbd is working... it sounds kinda like a one chip chorus with the 2399 locked up. you can
"tell" its "on" but thats about it.
i gotta repair a univibe today (bumming, sold my dunlop with controllers working perfectly to a guy last week... they plugged it in to an 18v generic adapter and now claim it won't even light up.... hoping its a 2.55m plug not making contact with the 2.1mm post in the power inlet, otherwise, they probably smoked it) and do some errands before tonite's gig, so probably won't get a chance til tomorrow to get back down to mybench, thanks for the support bro
digi2t:
"Fuzz, distortion, and wah, are plenty abound. Mutron Flanger, not so much.  8)"
#FuzzyGoodness

Scruffie

Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2017, 01:23:54 PM »
Hang on, i've just realised you have voltage on the ground pin of IC8, no wonder it's voltages are all messed up!

pinkjimiphoton

  • Poster2
  • **
  • Posts: 6066
  • Total likes: 360
  • High priest, Cult of Germanium, and Dudeist Monk
    • odds are i'm probably banned  here...
Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2017, 01:45:26 PM »
i will check it again asap. i DID ditch the sockets for the 4558's yesterday, as they seemed to cause nothing but problems.
i'll revisit the voltages and post before i leave.
digi2t:
"Fuzz, distortion, and wah, are plenty abound. Mutron Flanger, not so much.  8)"
#FuzzyGoodness

pinkjimiphoton

  • Poster2
  • **
  • Posts: 6066
  • Total likes: 360
  • High priest, Cult of Germanium, and Dudeist Monk
    • odds are i'm probably banned  here...
Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2017, 03:22:30 PM »
lol... merry new year...

sorry, didn't get a chance til yesterday to revisit this.
changes made... tried a couple different mn3007's from small bear.
no difference.
the lt1054 has been fitted. no difference.  <actually, that was changed before the bbd>
i DID solder all the 4558's to the board. that DID make a LITTLE difference.

still getting the weird oscillation. if i short across c26 it affects it with a small screwdriver... oscillation stops, but nothing changes.
assuming i'm getting clock sweep, as the voltage on pin 3 of the 1458 seems to be on an endless slow modulation from around 2.5-10.5v. speed pot has no effect on this that i can see.

tried the setup procedures in the build doc again, no diffs.

a few voltages have changed tho, some significantly and i think for the better;

i have to blow up the schematic and make a multi page image out of it, i cannot see the thing on one piece of paper at all... well, i can see it, but can't read any of the details i think i may need... anyways... voltages

ic1, 4558
1  7.11
2  7.11
3  6.46
4 0
5  9.62
6  9.70
7  9.69
8  14.19

ic2 4558
1  4.80
2  4.80
3  4.78
4  0
5  7.06
6  7.09
7  7.09
8  14.19

ic3 4558
1  7.06
2  7.06
3   7.04
4  0
5  7.08
6  7.09
7  7.11
8  14.72

ic4, 1458
1  13.69
2  7.88
3  2.5-10.5 (approx) appears to be sweeping or being swept
4  0
5  7.09
6  7.09
8  14.66


ic5 4007
1  .23
2  0
3  0
4  .47
5  .45
6  0
7  0
8  .71 
9  4.44
10  14.03
11  7.06
12  7.49
13  14.93
14  14.93

<should all the unused pins on the 4007 and 4047 be grounded? maybe the oscillation pin on the 4047??>

ic6 4047
1  7.52
2  7.43
3  7.04
4  14.93
5  14.93
6  14.93
7  0
8  0
9  0
10  7.46
11  7.46
12  0
13  7.46
14  14.93

1c7, 5817
in 18.46
center 0
out 14.93

ic8 4558
1  14.03
2 12.29
3  12.25
4  0
5  13.62
6  13.18
7  14.03
8  14.72

ic9, 4049
1  14.93
2  - 7, 7.46
8  0
9  - 12, 7.46
13  0
14,15  7.46
16  0

ic10, 3007
1  14.77
2  7.46
3  9.69
4  1.01
5  0
6  7.46
8  9.05

ic 11, 1054
1  1.70
2  5.30
3  0
4  0.01
5  0
6  2.56
7  1.3 
8  9.05

ic 12 4558
1  -3  7.09
4  0
5  7.07
6,7,  7.09
8 14.19

ic13, 4558
1  4.93
2,3, 7.09
4 0
5,6,7  7.09
8 14.17

q1
g  6.60
w  7.09
d  7.09

so somethings definitely were helped i think by being soldered in. i am REALLY beginning to HATE sip strips. them things suck and endlessly fail!! the 4558's seem closer.
but in the end i think my downfall is gonna be i can't see where the traces go on the board. this one's gonna end up in the bin i bet. i think its easier when the board and traces are more easily visible. black on black can be a real bitch ;)

thanks for the help and extra eyes and brains ;)

gonna need to bust out the oscilloscope i think. not sure what i'm doing with it, but maybe i can find something stupid.

it IS passing audio, so... that means most of it IS working i'd assume!! ;)

just had a thought too... i mounted the pots to the trace side of the board, and soldered from the component side... did i do that backwards? cuz if i did, maybe all my pots on 10 are actually on zero?
digi2t:
"Fuzz, distortion, and wah, are plenty abound. Mutron Flanger, not so much.  8)"
#FuzzyGoodness

Scruffie

Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2018, 08:21:03 AM »
The problem looks to still be with IC8, for instance, pin 3 is fed from a voltage divider from the 4.8V provided by IC2 pin 1 so it should be more around the 3.8V range yet it's 12V and the voltages on the other half are very high too so i'd definitely look for shorts in that area. You wont get any sweep until that IC is working as it feeds the vco & clock.

The oscillation is because the clock is stuck at a fixed presumably low frequency because IC8 isn't working, if you put your finger across C26 rather than a screwdriver it'll probably modulate it a bit.

Pots are soldered in fine from your picture.

pinkjimiphoton

  • Poster2
  • **
  • Posts: 6066
  • Total likes: 360
  • High priest, Cult of Germanium, and Dudeist Monk
    • odds are i'm probably banned  here...
Re: need help debugging lectric-fx flintlock flanger
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2018, 11:11:48 AM »
thanks scruffie, perhaps i should swap out that chip, too... it may have become damaged, as originally i had 'em all socketed and bent over sideways to minimize space. i will try and get back to it today and look around closer.
thanks for always having my back bro ;)
digi2t:
"Fuzz, distortion, and wah, are plenty abound. Mutron Flanger, not so much.  8)"
#FuzzyGoodness