Help with understanding noise

[amptramp]

Maybe the original Rickenbacher pickups had something going for them: magnetic shielding:

[MrStab]

free+stomp+boxes.org/

it's because that forum's for dicks. lol

[caspercody]

I turned off all the power in my house, and walked around with my guitar, my Iphone using the Bias FX app, and a pair of headphones.

NO 120 vac CONNECTED OR ON!!!

I had some hum while standing in front of electrical panel, typical since there is power there even with house breaker off. And also around a chest freezer. I started to turn on beakers one at a time but was still hard to determine cause. But you can really here a increase in hum standing at electrical panel and turning each breaker on.

I got the EMF meter today, and set it on my chair, and I can see the meter go up in the areas that are loudest with the hum as I spin around, and in the areas that did not have any hum did not have any EMF readings. So it is something in the air. The meter does pretty high from my amp itself??

Now I need to find another time with no one in house so I can turn off the power again and try the meter. And if it is even from my house or something else?

Thanks
Rob

[MrStab]

it makes sense that some noise comes from your amp. what amp is it? sorry if you already said and i missed it.

i have no clue what to suggest, to be honest, if this is pointing towards an issue with house wiring or outside interference. just to be clear: when everything on the breaker was off, apart from near the consumer unit and freezer, was there noise anywhere else?

this is a really dumb suggestion, i have no idea about all this, but are there any instances of domestic wiring where the freezer would be on a separate phase? could that cause any weirdness? or did you deliberately keep the freezer's breaker switched on, Rob?

is your house detached, or do you share any walls with neighbours?

just some thoughs to help figure it out.

[caspercody]

I tried again with power to house off, but this time with my new EMF meter. So with power completely off there is no EMF showing up on the meter throughout the house. I then walked around with my guitar and iPhone with Bias app (no AC power). And I was getting (2) areas with noise. By the AC panel, and the chest freezer. The panel is easy to explain, but the freezer, maybe a bad capacitor in there.

With AC back on I tried using my (10) band equalizer to see if I can find the range where the noise is happening. See image of equalizer. With this setting the noise is still there, but a lot quieter, and with a noise gate, it is tolerable to play.

But, I do loose some punch in the tone.

I do believe it is noise I am getting through my humbuckers, and it is somewhere in the frequency of 1k to 4k, so a filter will not probably work. I either need to sit in the one or two spots where I do not get the noise, or move things out of room that might be causing the noise.




Thanks
Rob

[EBK]

this is a really dumb suggestion, i have no idea about all this, but are there any instances of domestic wiring where the freezer would be on a separate phase? could that cause any weirdness? or did you deliberately keep the freezer's breaker switched on

At this point, I'd definitely call an electrician to inspect the house wiring rather than try to come up with some sort of filter. 

[amz-fx]

With AC back on I tried using my (10) band equalizer to see if I can find the range where the noise is happening. See image of equalizer.

That's not the hum range, which is typically at 60 or 120 Hz.

Turn the freezer off and see what happens. Nothing will thaw as long as you don't open the door while it is off. There may be some arcing in the compressor or fan motor that is creating the interference.

regards, Jack

[PRR]

> with power completely off ... noise. By ...the chest freezer.

HOW can a freezer with NO power make electrical noise??

Maybe it is "too smart"?

When I was very young we had a literal ice-box. We moved to a classic old Frigidaire with a loose motor that dad shimmed with a tennis ball (it would come loose in the middle of the night thumpthumpthump). That and subsequent iceboxes went DEAD when power was off. But I see new reefers have WiFi and scan your foods and text you when you run out of milk, maybe if it gets warm in there, maybe working on a battery so they can text when the power is out.

We've had 26 hour outages and nothing spoiled. Certainly an hour without ANY power won't hurt the ice cream. How to shut-down any backup-battery features, I don't know.

I dislike cap and compressor theories because the compressor doesn't run all the time. Although if it gets emergency power from battery, 4KHz inverter whine is possible.

[willienillie]

My dishwasher isn't "smart" but has some kind of digital controls.  An electric guitar within about 5 feet will pickup a high-pitched whine, even when it's not running.  Open the door and the whine changes pitch slightly.  Nothing I would call a "hum" though.

[caspercody]

No smart freezer.

So last night I was walking around with EMF meter with all power on, and I realized that my security system (with wireless sensors) was always on because it runs on battery when I have AC loss. Today I turned off the security system, and removed some of the batteries on the wireless sensors. I can now adjust my eq with all but the 2K HZ at level 0. The 2K i have at -12 and there is still a little noise but less now. And with the security system off I do not have much EMF around the freezer. If I were to draw a straight line from two of the security sensors to the security panel these would cross right over the freezer, and the security panel is on the other side of the freezer.

So with NO AC in my house, and the security system off (but some of the wireless sensors are still working because they run on batteries) I only have EMF by the house AC panel, and at the water stand pipe coming into the house. The water stand pipe is grounded, but is there is a box that is sending a signal monitoring water usage. Could this be causing the noise? They are coming out at end of month to install a new one, and I will definitely check readings at that time.

I did find this diagram for the freezer.

[amptramp]

^^^

This is an old "dumb" refrigerator.  It does remind me of someone who surreptitiously reprogrammed a smart refrigerator that had an internet connection into a p0rn hub then quietly walked away from it.  It was a while before the people at Home Depot noticed it.  Your refrigerator should not be all that noisy.

[PRR]

> the security system .... a box that is sending a signal monitoring water usage. Could this be causing the noise?

Yes. (Either.)

Too many e-toys in today's houses.

[Rob Strand]

Too many e-toys in today's houses.

and they are all watching you.

[caspercody]

I do not care if they are watching or listening to me, just get your noise out of my guitar sound.

[Rob Strand]

I do not care if they are watching or listening to me, just get your noise out of my guitar sound.

The sound gets blocked unless it's an I-guitar made from E-wood.

[amz-fx]

The water stand pipe is grounded, but is there is a box that is sending a signal monitoring water usage. Could this be causing the noise?

Where I live, the water metering device is located on the shutoff valve, which is in the ground away from the buildings.

The meter reader just drives up next to it, and takes a reading without getting out of the truck.

The electrical system in a house (around here, anyway) is grounded by a wire that extends through the wall from the power panel and is connected to a 4-foot long (or longer) copper plated rod that is driven into the ground outside. The wire is held onto the rod by a clamp and there is the potential for a number of failures of the ground connection at the wire-clamp connection, where the clamp is secured to the rod, or even in the continuity of the ground wire itself. You can examine it but I do not recommend that you mess with it.

Here at my office, the power panel is on the outside of the building and I just went to look at it. The ground wire comes out of the box and down to the rod, which is immediately below it. Looks to be about 8 ga wire.

Best regards, Jack

[Rob Strand]

I tried again with power to house off, but this time with my new EMF meter. So with power completely off there is no EMF showing up on the meter throughout the house. I then walked around with my guitar and iPhone with Bias app (no AC power). And I was getting (2) areas with noise. By the AC panel, and the chest freezer. The panel is easy to explain, but the freezer, maybe a bad capacitor in there.

The problem with EMF meters is they put out a number but the number *isn't* the thing that is a problem to the ears.

I like your test with the guitar it's a good way to approach it.

Many buzz problems are capacitively coupled.     Grounding the strings with a guitar clip sometimes removes the noise.  In a few cases I've found the ground connection to the bridge wasn't great.    Another thing to try is to cut two 300mm sheets of aluminium foil.   Sit in you noisy chair, rotate for worst noise.  Connect the aluminium foil sheet to ground with alligator clips (make sure they are connecting to the foil otherwise the experiment is useless), then place them over the front and back of the guitar over the pick and controls region.
If you can attenuate the signal it's likely to be capacitive.  If you are keen you can switch off the power to your lights at main fuse box and see if that has an effect.  Do you have an fluorescent lights or dimmers?

[caspercody]

Yes I have 2 x 2 troffer flourescent lights downstairs where my gear is, and one of these lights is in the same room.

So with NO AC in my house, and the security system off (but some of the wireless sensors are still working because they run on batteries) I only have EMF by the house AC panel, and at the water stand pipe coming into the house.

I have underground power lines.

I am using a Marshall DSL40C, and (2) different guitars. Different pickups, magnets, and manufactures of pickups. All pickups are humbuckers. I have put cooper tape in the cavities of both guitars. I have different cables and now made a couple of my own using Mogami cable. Using a eq at the beginning of the pedals I have isolated the noise to the 2k - 4k range.

I get this same noise with using just my iPhone and the Bias app with headphones. NO AC POWER. and once when I was away from home using the iPhone set up, i had no noise at all. So it is something in my house.

I am getting a 31 band eq next week for $50.00. maybe I can get closer to cutting the specific freq.

[EBK]

Time to buy a new house, I guess. 

[PRR]

> Where I live, the water metering device is located on the shutoff valve, which is in the ground away from the buildings. The meter reader just drives up next to it, and takes a reading without getting out of the truck.
> The electrical system in a house (around here, anyway) is grounded by a wire that extends through the wall from the power panel and is connected to a 4-foot long (or longer) copper plated rod that is driven into the ground...

Water metering varies enormously, by company and by age. In 1990 I bought a house where we were told the water meter man had to come into the cellar every month, leave the back door ajar that day. In fact they had installed a plastic collar on the inside meter and a thingus on the outside wall, he got a reading by pressing a box to the thingus. By the time we sold even that had been replaced by some drive-by radio link. OTOH here we know our water use by the lamp-dim when our well-pump runs. Our electric power meter is on a pole in the yard, but there has only been a meter-man once, yet I can read yesterday's consumption on-line (when the website works). Obviously they are telemetering data through sky or wire back to HQ. So probably some e-racket there. But there is no power at my power-pole (no outlet) so I can't/won't try a guitar.

For at least 30 years, the "standard" US ground rod has been two 8' rods. 4' is sub-standard. One rod is legal if tested, which costs more than driving another rod. Several alternates are accepted. Metal in concrete foundation is terrific. Large metal plates, buried wire all around the house.... but mostly a couple 8' rods. "Underground metallic piping" used to be sufficient, and is still required to be bonded, but is not allowed to be the only grounding (anyway near all that metal pipe rots-out and gets replaced by plastic-- I carefully bonded to my water-meter entrance and then was told it spliced to plastic pipe a foot outside the cellar wall under a dry porch).