Author Topic: R.F. Interference....Slight Return  (Read 636 times)

Big Monk

R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« on: March 16, 2021, 03:05:57 PM »
Well, I'll be damned if over the last few days I have not searched all over this forum, found countless posts on R.F. and how to stop it getting in, implemented them, and still get the local country station coming through my amp.

I've tried B-C caps, input to ground caps, RC networks on the input, etc.

My breadboard setup exists INSIDE an enclosure, with shield input and output cables, etc. I've tried to route clean and keep leads short, etc.

Am I missing something? Am I just in an area with strong signal?
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit. Aristotle

"Beneath the bebop moon, I'm howling like a loon, for you..." Marc Bolan

Fancy Lime

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2021, 03:30:35 PM »
Have you seen the South Park pilot episode? Or could it be coming through the guitar? I recently put the input jack into the breadboard the wrong way round, so that the guitar shield was signal and the signal wire went to ground. I got extreme noise from all nearby electronics until I found the error.

Cheers,
Andy
My dry, sweaty foot had become the source of one of the most disturbing cases of chemical-based crime within my home country.

Big Monk

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2021, 03:38:17 PM »
Have you seen the South Park pilot episode? Or could it be coming through the guitar? I recently put the input jack into the breadboard the wrong way round, so that the guitar shield was signal and the signal wire went to ground. I got extreme noise from all nearby electronics until I found the error.

Cheers,
Andy

I just swapped out the input jack last night so I know that's right. I'll double check the output jack.

Shield wire should be good. I went Shield/Conductor to Input jack sleeve/Tip and conductor to switch. Switch has conductor on switch side and conductor and shield to circuit. Same for output. What's interesting is that some of the capacitor and resistor suggestions to mitigate R.F. actually made it worse, i.e. intensified the pickup.

I'm stumped. Granted, I understand that sometimes this issue can leave you permanently stumped, i.e. try as you may you never mitigate it.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit. Aristotle

"Beneath the bebop moon, I'm howling like a loon, for you..." Marc Bolan

antonis

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2021, 03:43:07 PM »
still get the local country station coming through my amp.

Maybe a local country notch filter would help..  :icon_wink:



"I'm getting older while being taught all the time" Solon the Athenian..
"I don't mind  being taught all the time but I do mind a lot getting old" Antonis the Thessalonian..

Big Monk

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2021, 03:51:59 PM »
still get the local country station coming through my amp.

Maybe a local country notch filter would help..  :icon_wink:



One can only take so much twang..... ;)

What i think i'll do is remove the B-C capacitors and the capitor across the top of the Q2 voltage divider (i'm working on a Fuzz Face right now) while i audition transistors. I may need to play a round a bit to get the set i like and then i can return to frequency and R.F mitigation techniques.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 03:53:37 PM by Big Monk »
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit. Aristotle

"Beneath the bebop moon, I'm howling like a loon, for you..." Marc Bolan

antonis

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2021, 03:54:22 PM »
some of the capacitor and resistor suggestions to mitigate R.F. actually made it worse, i.e. intensified the pickup.

That strongly leads to what Andy above said.. :icon_wink:
(instead of RF sinking you have RF sourcing..)

Or perhaps you use RC filter "conventional" grounding for a positive ground circuit..

P.S.
Could you post a schematic of particular FF work just to leave out some kind of junctions rectification possibility..??
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 04:07:01 PM by antonis »
"I'm getting older while being taught all the time" Solon the Athenian..
"I don't mind  being taught all the time but I do mind a lot getting old" Antonis the Thessalonian..

Big Monk

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2021, 04:32:32 PM »
some of the capacitor and resistor suggestions to mitigate R.F. actually made it worse, i.e. intensified the pickup.

That strongly leads to what Andy above said.. :icon_wink:
(instead of RF sinking you have RF sourcing..)

Or perhaps you use RC filter "conventional" grounding for a positive ground circuit..

P.S.
Could you post a schematic of particular FF work just to leave out some kind of junctions rectification possibility..??

Its a big standard NPN Fuzz Face. I followed the Axis Face schematic from Fuzz Central so there are some capacitors in various places.

Here is the build:



We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit. Aristotle

"Beneath the bebop moon, I'm howling like a loon, for you..." Marc Bolan

amptramp

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2021, 04:55:14 PM »
Does it help to screw the bottom cover on?

antonis

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2021, 04:58:52 PM »
Does it help to screw the bottom cover on?

I suspect not, Ron..
(can't see any enclosure grounding point..)
"I'm getting older while being taught all the time" Solon the Athenian..
"I don't mind  being taught all the time but I do mind a lot getting old" Antonis the Thessalonian..

Big Monk

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2021, 05:09:05 PM »
Does it help to screw the bottom cover on?

I suspect not, Ron..
(can't see any enclosure grounding point..)

The pedal sits on top of the bottom plate when in use.

The input jack is grounded against the Chassis mechanically.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit. Aristotle

"Beneath the bebop moon, I'm howling like a loon, for you..." Marc Bolan

Big Monk

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2021, 05:10:32 PM »
Does it help to screw the bottom cover on?

It usually sits on top of the plate but I have not been putting the screws on. Would that help?
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit. Aristotle

"Beneath the bebop moon, I'm howling like a loon, for you..." Marc Bolan

PRR

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2021, 05:25:19 PM »
> Am I just in an area with strong signal?

What's on your radio? TV? (over the air) Landline telephone? When I was a half mile from a 50,000 Watt AM station I could hear it on any loose contact, without amplification.

Now we have Wifi and cell and door-cams and my toilet is bugged......
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mozz

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2021, 05:45:49 PM »
House wiring maybe? You can always file a complaint with the FCC, they may be running over power or wrong direction, maybe over modulated.
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PRR

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2021, 06:07:38 PM »
> file a complaint with the FCC

It would take a lot more than a noisy audio breadboard to get FCC attention.
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Big Monk

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2021, 06:38:22 PM »
Ill try to run through what I experienced better in a bit when the kiddos go to bed. Ill annotate my picture as well.

For now, I have Leprechaun traps to set...This is our year. When we catch him, we shall give no quarter.

My son has already promised a prolonged interrogation.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit. Aristotle

"Beneath the bebop moon, I'm howling like a loon, for you..." Marc Bolan

Rob Strand

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2021, 06:51:44 PM »
First short out the input to confirm the RF is getting into the input.
It's an OK assumption but it might not be true.

When the RF interference is strong you might find you need a low cut-off on the RC filter.
Low cut-off means a larger cap and/or a large resistor.   A large cap will load the pickup.
A large resistor will increase noise.  I've helped people in the US in the past with RF
issues and the RC values were on the fringe of becoming an issue.    For the resistor
start with 4k7 and for the cap 100pF.    If that doesn't work try 10k or 22k for the resistor.
If that doesn't work try the largest resistor and 220pF.   It's undesirable to go higher
on the cap.

If you find something that works see if you can get a solution with parts in the range R = 2k2 to 10k, C = 47pF to 100pF.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 06:58:18 PM by Rob Strand »
The internet:  answers without the need for understanding.

Big Monk

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2021, 08:00:01 PM »
First short out the input to confirm the RF is getting into the input.
It's an OK assumption but it might not be true.

When the RF interference is strong you might find you need a low cut-off on the RC filter.
Low cut-off means a larger cap and/or a large resistor.   A large cap will load the pickup.
A large resistor will increase noise.  I've helped people in the US in the past with RF
issues and the RC values were on the fringe of becoming an issue.    For the resistor
start with 4k7 and for the cap 100pF.    If that doesn't work try 10k or 22k for the resistor.
If that doesn't work try the largest resistor and 220pF.   It's undesirable to go higher
on the cap.

If you find something that works see if you can get a solution with parts in the range R = 2k2 to 10k, C = 47pF to 100pF.

Will try this before doing anything drastic like starting over.




Let me clarify a few things about the annotated picture above:

A.) The power section is here. Input is through the DC jack into a simple power supply filter comprised of an RC filter with 820 ohm R and 100 uf C, along with a 0.047 uf film cap parallel with the 100 uf.

B.) These are my test points. I have 3 red jacks for checking collector voltages, or any important values for that matter, externally. There is a test point to ground as well.

C.) My input is a box jack. Chassis connections is made through this jack from the metal lip on the sleeve. I have a ground wire from sleeve to ground rail on breadboard as well. Shield wire is connected with shield connected to sleeve and inside conductor connected to tip. This goes to the switch with no shield connection. No shield connection leaves the switch but then shield is connected to ground rail on breadboard.

D.) Here is my switching and LED. Pretty standard true bypass wiring with LED switching. I have long leads for swapping leads for PNP circuits.

E.) Output shield wiring is same as input. This jack is isolated from enclosure with a ground wire from sleeve to ground rail on breadboard.

Anything jumping out to anyone on the basic I/O, power, switching, LED setup?
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit. Aristotle

"Beneath the bebop moon, I'm howling like a loon, for you..." Marc Bolan

Rob Strand

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2021, 01:43:18 AM »
Quote
Anything jumping out to anyone on the basic I/O, power, switching, LED setup?
It looks pretty good to me.

Something which can help RF is putting the filter resistors at the socket instead of on the PCB.
You can also add a resistor in series with the signal at the output socket; IIRC Cornish does this.
This stops the RF before it gets into the enclosure.  It can also stop RF coupling around the switch.

In the true bypass wiring scheme the resistors at the socket and the resistors at the PCB
aren't quite the same.   In bypass the resistors at the socket will place the resistors in series with
the signal path.   The resistors at the socket can't be more than 1k.   So really, you still need the filter
resistor and cap at the PCB and the 1k are just "additional help".  It might be enough to fix very bad RF
issues.

Another thing which occurred to me is maybe the hole in the system is the guitar wiring.  RF is actually
getting into the guitar wiring and you are trying to fend it off with filters at the amp and pedals.
Shielded cavities and wires in the guitar help by there's still the pickups.   It's not so easy to determine
if it is getting into the guitar or the pedal input.  You could make 6.5mm socket with short and plug
the guitar end of the lead into that.  If the RF goes away it's not 100% conclusive it's the guitar,
since it could be getting into the pedal input and short helps that case as well.   If you short the
input at the pedal and the RF is still present then clearly it's getting in somewhere else.

The thing to keep in perspective is people have no RF issues with much poorer wiring than you.   The thing is though
their environment probably doesn't have strong RF.  If your area has particularly strong RF  then you might need
to go above and beyond the normal defenses and that could mean adding extra parts which are normally not
required.   Back in the days of CB radio people modified their equipment from outside by wrapping cables around
ferrite rods and through ferrite torroids.   They were the extra fixes to cope with the the bad local conditions.
The internet:  answers without the need for understanding.

amptramp

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2021, 07:11:00 AM »
Does it help to screw the bottom cover on?

It usually sits on top of the plate but I have not been putting the screws on. Would that help?

It should help ensure good contact since aluminum normally has a coating of non-conductive aluminum oxide on it and screwing the cover on may enable the metal to bite through the oxide. I suspect the test points are also acting as antennae so cutting them temporarily to check on this may prove useful.

Big Monk

Re: R.F. Interference....Slight Return
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2021, 07:38:59 AM »
Quote
Anything jumping out to anyone on the basic I/O, power, switching, LED setup?
It looks pretty good to me.

Something which can help RF is putting the filter resistors at the socket instead of on the PCB.
You can also add a resistor in series with the signal at the output socket; IIRC Cornish does this.
This stops the RF before it gets into the enclosure.  It can also stop RF coupling around the switch.

In the true bypass wiring scheme the resistors at the socket and the resistors at the PCB
aren't quite the same.   In bypass the resistors at the socket will place the resistors in series with
the signal path.   The resistors at the socket can't be more than 1k.   So really, you still need the filter
resistor and cap at the PCB and the 1k are just "additional help".  It might be enough to fix very bad RF
issues.

Another thing which occurred to me is maybe the hole in the system is the guitar wiring.  RF is actually
getting into the guitar wiring and you are trying to fend it off with filters at the amp and pedals.
Shielded cavities and wires in the guitar help by there's still the pickups.   It's not so easy to determine
if it is getting into the guitar or the pedal input.  You could make 6.5mm socket with short and plug
the guitar end of the lead into that.  If the RF goes away it's not 100% conclusive it's the guitar,
since it could be getting into the pedal input and short helps that case as well.   If you short the
input at the pedal and the RF is still present then clearly it's getting in somewhere else.

The thing to keep in perspective is people have no RF issues with much poorer wiring than you.   The thing is though
their environment probably doesn't have strong RF.  If your area has particularly strong RF  then you might need
to go above and beyond the normal defenses and that could mean adding extra parts which are normally not
required.   Back in the days of CB radio people modified their equipment from outside by wrapping cables around
ferrite rods and through ferrite torroids.   They were the extra fixes to cope with the the bad local conditions.

When I have some time today, Ill test some of this out and clean up the circuit wiring to have shorter runs, etc. Ill post back my results.

If i am grasping your suggestions properly i'd:

1.) Put the RC Filtering in series with the lead and the tip of the input jack and;
2.) Put a series R in between the lead and tip of the output jack
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 07:57:23 AM by Big Monk »
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit. Aristotle

"Beneath the bebop moon, I'm howling like a loon, for you..." Marc Bolan