Author Topic: Guitar Tripler 1969  (Read 773 times)

PRR

Guitar Tripler 1969
« on: June 29, 2022, 12:50:59 PM »
Do we know this guy?



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Mark Hammer

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2022, 02:21:32 PM »
It makes "offbeat sounds".  Sign me up!  I can't think of any pedal company extant that makes a product yielding "offbeat sounds".  Not even a plug-in, for that matter.

Ben N

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Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2022, 03:38:28 PM »
Is that--could it be--our Steve Daniels?
I think I'd have to be a little inebriated to think my guitar sounds like a banjo or a mandolin. Maybe it's supposed to read 'Guitar Tipler'.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 03:44:23 PM by Ben N »

Rob Strand

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2022, 06:37:28 PM »
Quote
Is that--could it be--our Steve Daniels?
I was under the impression it was.

There's been quite a few older articles put up on the fsb forum and there was definitely a Steve Daniels article amongst those. (If it is, he would have been quite young when he published it.)

RG's published articles as well but he published under his name.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 07:39:46 PM by Rob Strand »
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Digital Larry

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2022, 07:10:15 PM »
So, it's just a fancy bass cut?
Digital Larry
Want to quickly design your own effects patches for the Spin FV-1 DSP chip?
https://github.com/HolyCityAudio/SpinCAD-Designer

cspar

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2022, 09:07:33 PM »
He wrote a handful of magazine articles before he started Small Bear and I believe a few after that too.

Some of the best stuff he's wrote isn't the magazine articles IMHO.

There's some good information to be found in the "Deep Cave" about working with what you have instead of ideal components. Sure Steve was trying to sell low hfe germanium transistors but the writing is good and more of the diy spirit than just a schematic and an expensive BOM.

http://diy.smallbearelec.com/

It's nice to see that synthCube is keeping that part of the site up.

PRR

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2022, 09:34:56 PM »
Is that--could it be--our Steve Daniels?...

That's what I was wondering. It can't be a rare name; OTOH how many Steve Daniels in the pedal community?

The over-wrought description (triple mandolin??) can be a mix of enthusiastic author and fairly clueless editors. (Electronix Illustrated was not the savviest rag on the rack. They folded back into Mechanix Illustrated in 1972.)
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Rob Strand

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2022, 10:35:05 PM »
One of the other articles on fsb was the "U-pick it" project from May/June 1971, Elementary Electronics, p56.   That article
gives his amateur radio number as WB2GIF - that will find you more articles on google.   Still not sure if it's Steve from Small Bear.
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PRR

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2022, 11:46:08 PM »
One of the other articles on fsb was the "U-pick it" project from May/June 1971, Elementary Electronics...

   
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iainpunk

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2022, 07:20:38 AM »
One of the other articles on fsb was the "U-pick it" project from May/June 1971, Elementary Electronics...

   
istn't that basically the idiot wah? or atleast very close to it?

cheers
friendly reminder: all holes are positive and have negative weight, despite not being there.

cheers

cspar

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2022, 10:29:58 AM »
I'm not sure what Steve based his design off but I'd be really surprised if his was the first time the basic topology was used for a guitar effect.

Both are just modified building blocks that you see variations of in different designs.

The U-Pick-It and the Idiot Wah are similar in that but it's more than just the 30 or so years between designs that separates them. It's kind of like comparing two Electra Distortion variations with different parts counts.

It's not hard for me to imagine the Idiot Wah having it's roots in breadboarding the U-Pick-It. I haven't tried the U-Pick-It in peticular, but most of the circuits from magazine articles that I've tried were better as starting points to tweak on a breadboard than something to build stock.

That's part of the charm of them to me. You learn way more from breadboarding lackluster magazine circuits than you will by building clones from posted layouts.

The articles that are written the best IMHO are ones where the design is lackluster on purpose and there are several hints at modifications that will make it better.

It's like the teacher sending the student to the lab.

anotherjim

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2022, 11:56:44 AM »
Looks almost like a BJT gyrator to me going by what it does. OTOH, it looks like a PSO but it's meant to be set short of oscillating?

Croeso i Diystompboxes.

I have no April 1st project

PRR

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2022, 04:44:14 PM »
....it looks like a PSO...

Twin-Tee.
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antonis

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2022, 06:01:26 PM »
Twin-Tee.

Of very peculiar R & C values ratio..
(I presume due to Q1 been away from ideal amp characteristics..)
"I'm getting older while being taught all the time" Solon the Athenian..
"I don't mind  being taught all the time but I do mind a lot getting old" Antonis the Thessalonian..

Rob Strand

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2022, 07:09:36 PM »
Looks like the "Wide Range Funk Box" project from the old "101 Electronics Projects"
magazines was taken from Steve Daniels "U-pick it".

I've always wondered were they got those projects.

You can see the "Wide Range Funk Box" appears in "101 Electronics Projects"
in 1974, after Steve Daniels' 1971 article and not before.

In the 1975 it looks like the magazine made a typo on the value of C3? (470n vs 47n)

From 1978 and after the magazine dropped the project.

Chronology

Steve Daniels "U-pick it" project from May/June 1971, Elementary Electronics, p56
Filter Caps: C3=50n, C4=20n, C6=10n (to gnd), C5=10n (to Q1 base)
Note:
- Cross-connected "blend" resistor R2 (220k) not in 101 Electronics Projects schematic
- C5 & C6 swapped positions to 101 Electronics Projects schematic

1970 101 Electronics Projects
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Hobbyist-Specials/101-Electronics%20Projects-1970.pdf
Cannot see project.
pre 1971 Steve Daniels magazine article

1971 101 Electronics Projects
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Hobbyist-Specials/101-Electronics%20Projects-1971.pdf
Cannot see project.
borders on pre 1971 Steve Daniels magazine article

1974 101 Electronics Projects
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Hobbyist-Specials/101-Electronics%20Projects-1974.pdf
Project #28: Wide Range Funk Box, page 30
Filter Caps C3=47n, C4=20n, C5=10n (to gnd), C=10nF (to Q1 base)

1975 101 Electronics Projects
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Hobbyist-Specials/101-Electronics%20Projects-1975.pdf
Project 31,Wide Range Funk Box,  p31
Filter Caps C3=470n, C4=20n, C5=10n (to gnd), C=10nF (to Q1 base)
*** Cap C3 changed from 47n to 470n.
       Typo or mod?

1976 101 Electronics Projects
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Hobbyist-Specials/101-Electronics%20Projects-1976.pdf
Project 96,Wide Range Funk Box,  p59
Filter Caps C3=470n, C4=20n, C5=10n (to gnd), C=10nF (to Q1 base)

1977 101 Electronics Projects
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Hobbyist-Specials/101-Electronics%20Projects-1977.pdf
Project #96: Wide Range Funk Box, page 60
Filter Caps C3=470n, C4=20n, C5=10n (to gnd), C=10nF (to Q1 base)

1978 101 Electronics Projects
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Hobbyist-Specials/101-Electronics%20Projects-1978.pdf
No guitar projects?

1979 101 Electronics Projects
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Hobbyist-Specials/101-Electronics%20Projects-1979.pdf
Can't see project

1981 101 Electronics Projects
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Hobbyist-Specials/101-Electronics%20Projects-1981.pdf
No guitar projects?


The above isn't complete because there's a version where the project is #30
and it has the C3=470nF value. Not sure where it fits in. My guess is either 1975 or 1976.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/doctortweek/6905996202

« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 10:31:17 PM by Rob Strand »
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cspar

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2022, 12:58:48 PM »
Perhaps we need a new thread as this has morphed into history of a topology that isn't from the original article. But I like history.

I'm not too familiar with the history of wah topologies as I don't use mine much but I've been looking into the timeline of twin T filter/inductorless wah effect designs and trying to find a similar one that predates the U-Pick-It regardless of if there is an expression pedal used or not.

It seems to predate the Colorsound one from what I see. I'm not sure of the true release date of that but it seems to be the earliest commercial one that I can find that doesn't have an inductor. It's 1 transistor and different enough from the U-Pick-It to easily call it an original design comparatively IMHO.

The "The Waa-waa" by Simonton from the Jan,1970 issue of Popular Electronics is earlier and inductorless but it's a 2 transistor twin t optical wah. Close but no cigar, it's a different category.

But metaphorically topology timelines are like a few Beatles and Beach Boys albums where they're listening to each others records with a few questionable tribute albums thrown in the mix.

It's not hard to see the U-Pick-It as a simplified and lower parts count take on "The Waa-waa" that is simultaneously different enough to consider both as "original."

The definitive answer is probably best found asking Steve about his design process.

I watched a interview with John Cusack on YouTube awhile back. And the recent Mark Hammer interview, JHS shows and whatnot. All good stuff.

I bet Steve's got some interesting things share if asked the right questions...
 
1975 101 Electronics Projects
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Hobbyist-Specials/101-Electronics%20Projects-1975.pdf
Project 31,Wide Range Funk Box,  p31
Filter Caps C3=470n, C4=20n, C5=10n (to gnd), C=10nF (to Q1 base)
*** Cap C3 changed from 47n to 470n.
       Typo or mod?
If it's a typo then it seems that we're more concerned then the readers back then were since it continued to be published that way in later editions.  :icon_rolleyes:

Well enough of my morning coffee blather.

Does anybody know of an earlier non optical/inductorless transistor design or even an earlier optical one?

Rob Strand

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2022, 07:33:53 PM »
Quote
If it's a typo then it seems that we're more concerned then the readers back then were since it continued to be published that way in later editions.  :icon_rolleyes:
Crossed my mind as well but it's a hard call since Guitar projects took the back seat during that time.
(I haven't made any effort to see if the 470n or 47n makes more sense in that design.)


Quote
Does anybody know of an earlier non optical/inductorless transistor design or even an earlier optical one?
You might be onto something there.  I don't know of any earlier ones.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 07:51:35 PM by Rob Strand »
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cspar

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2022, 10:20:21 PM »
Without doing any math I'd put my money on 47n being the correct value.

Rob Strand

Re: Guitar Tripler 1969
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2022, 01:34:55 AM »
Without doing any math I'd put my money on 47n being the correct value.
It's looking a bit more like that direction.

I went over this thread where mac and I put up the values for some optimized inductorless wah's.
https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=121430.0

You can see quite large variations is the part values, yet the response is still good. 

If we just look at the 25k pot in that thread vs the 10k on the Funk Box, the RC product of the cap and the pot point to a cap closer to 47n than 470n. The 56k resistor in the RCR part of the twin-T of the Funk Box is much larger in those optimized units.   Also, the optimized units have buffers.  Sometimes the devils in the details but all those details would push for smaller caps on the Funk Box.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2022, 01:40:50 AM by Rob Strand »
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