Test Run of 200 Guitar distortion pedals

[Vivek]

Please share ideas on how to get Quantity 200 guitar distortion pedals made in China or USA as a small test run

I have an idea and it is working on the breadboard.

1 or 2 stomp footswitches (based on which option I go in for)
3 pots
1 LED

Mono input and Mono output

It could even fit into a MOOER mini Amp pedal format, for example

Anyone have experience with working with Chinese OEM manufacturers and could recommend me one of them ?

or a method of getting 200 pedals made in USA ?

[Mark Hammer]

Because you typed Quantity 200, rather than "a run of 200 units", I thought Quantity 200 was a brand name.  Wouldn't be any weirder than other brand names I've seen.  I'm sure there are Chinese manufacturers that will be happy to produce much bigger runs of pedals, as they do for Caline, Mooer, Donner, Rowin, Joyo, Amazon, etc.  But I suspect they will not wish to take on a job of 200 units.

In the USA, Cusack has been making pedals for some smaller brands.  You might want to inquire with them:  https://cusackmusic.com/pedals/

[antonis]

I thought Quantity 200 was a brand name.

Count me, also..

[Vivek]

Thanks for your inputs!

Quantity 200 does sound like Area 51 !

[GGBB]

There's also All-Pedal (who make/made for Wampler): https://allpedal.com/pages/contract-manufacturing. They are a brand of Musik Distro who is also Warehouse Guitar Speakers.

[soggybag]

I have been getting PCBs made at PCBWay.com they also offer an SMD assembly service. I haven't tried it, yet.

A friend of mine made a run of pedals, he had boards assembled SMD, then he soldered some extra parts and did the rest of the assembly himself. He said it cost $40 for 20 boards plus shipping, about $2 per board. Which is surprisingly reasonable.

You can get the whole thing assembled but it costs more for through hole parts.

If you plan your board well you can minimize the end step assembly.

Looks like these guys do everything: https://allpedal.com/pages/contract-manufacturing (oops just realized someone posted this all ready)

There are a few places that will print and drill enclosures, here's one: https://www.obscuramfg.com/

[Vivek]

Would these Chinese and American companies honour non disclosure agreements and non clone agreements ?

[Rob Strand]

Would these Chinese and American companies honour non disclosure agreements and non clone agreements ?

Those things only work if you have the funds to defend them if the agreement is breached (you also have to find out).

As far as getting started:  You should look up the posts made by Joe Gagan when he started up his company.  He made a number of posts, some at the start and some at the end.   Really good eye-opening advice.

A friend of mine made a run of pedals, he had boards assembled SMD, then he soldered some extra parts and did the rest of the assembly himself. He said it cost $40 for 20 boards plus shipping, about $2 per board. Which is surprisingly reasonable.

For a small start-up that's probably the way to do it.   You have to trade-off the cost savings buying 200 enclosures and switches up front vs buying smaller quantities at a higher but reasonable prices to see if business takes off.   One  advantage of getting someone to do make them is the drilling and finishing of the enclosures can be done more professionally and consistently.

[Jarno]

NDA's are a common, legal, way of preventing information leaks, never heard of "non-clone agreements", although I do have an inkling of what is in there.
Make sure you have your terminology correct, and know what rules apply (on NDA and Copyright laws), and don't expect companies to jump through hoops of agreeing to something non-standard that you wrote.
Also, as Rob mentioned, you need money to be able to pursue companies upon infringement, same goes with patents.

Best way is to not give any one party the full picture, but that does mean doing more yourself.

There's a trend towards "big-bang" starts, brother of my wife is starting something, and he expects to blow through 300k EUR just to do market research, I think that is crazy. Especially for pedals, build 20 yourself to test the water, and then maybe another 50, and then see if you can go through to industrialisation and produce it in bigger batches. Also, to be able to be successful you'll need more than just the single pedal idea.

[imJonWain]

Paying the extra for US fab/MF or doing limited runs "hand made" can be a selling point since generally it's a race to the bottom for guitar pedal pricing these days unless it's something really stand out.

[soggybag]

I just saw a really insightful video about strategy vs planning. In a nutshell a plan doesn't mean anything in business. You can plan to make x number of pedals, manufacture them to a particular cost and still not have a business or make any money.

A strategy would describe how you are going to create a product that people want at a price they are willing to pay and make them aware of the option.

I went to art school so the business concepts are mostly over my head. That disclaimer in place, making 200 boxes is a plan. I'm not sure what a strategy would look like. The pedal market is pretty saturated but it's also hot. Plenty of people are making and selling pedals. The idea of just in time manufacture might be good. If you have commitments to stock your product that would inform the 200 number and tell you if the product has a market. Brand/product awareness would be a good thing to look at. Do people know your product is available and are they hearing/seeing demos?

All that said, making 200 boxes is cool challenge in itself and if it's not going to break your bank account that could be fun in itself. Designing boards that were easy and cheap to assemble is a cool development problem to solve. Just make sure your significant other is aware when the palette of stompboxes arrives at your apartment!

[iainpunk]

I went to art school so the business concepts are mostly over my head.

wait, you didn't have any mandatory business classes in art school? how would that prepare you for setting up a successful art business? the art school kids in my city always complain about those classes, and more experienced artists i know are really grateful for having been forced to take those classes.

i had the same idea, but fully SMD. then i spoke to someone who has experience in helping startups, and lost all hope in that direction, but he helped me realise that i want my circuits to be 'out there' and that people or companies are using my ideas... but that's just a less extreme version of something my generation wants: rather be famous than rich.

cheers

[MikeA]

A strategy would describe how you are going to create a product that people want at a price they are willing to pay and make them aware of the option.

If you're an artist/engineer/musician/other non-business major and need a concise guide to strategy and other business skills, I recommend The Ten Day MBA by Silbeger, it's available for $15 new or $5 used in paperback.  After undergrad and grad degrees in business and 25 years in management, I think most of the important concepts are in this book, at least in introductory form.

[PRR]

....you didn't have any mandatory business classes in art school? how would that prepare you for setting up a successful art business?...

I pulled-up an arbitrary US university art school, and I swear I don't see any "sell your stuff" courses. Maybe the very last "Publication and Display" but that's not real business.

    Courses
    ART & DESIGN
07:080:101 The Creative Process Online
07:080:131 Art Appreciation Online
07:080:132 Art Appreciation Online Short Course
07:080:133 Design Appreciation Online
NEW: 07:080:215 Graphic Design for Everybody Online
07:080:233 Multimedia Art: Sound Online
07:080:300 Media Art and You: Creativity in the Digital Age Online
07:080:301 net.art: Visual and Contemporary Arts Practices in Online Media Online
07:080:331 Digital Photo Image Online
07:080:345 Global Perspectives in Design History Online
07:080:431 Social Media for the Arts Online
07:081:121 Drawing Fundamentals
07:081:122 4-D Fundamentals
07:081:200 Sem in Contemp A
07:081:221 Drawing I-A
07:081:227 Visual Thinking I-A
07:081:231 Design I-A
07:081:243 Media I-A
07:081:244 Media I-B
07:081:251 Painting I-A
07:081:261 Photography I-A
07:081:262 Photography I-B
07:081:271 Print I-A
07:081:281 Sculpture I-A
07:081:310 Seminar in Photography
07:081:313 Ceramics Sculpture
07:081:321 Drawing II-A
07:081:324 Figure Drawing
07:081:328 Design Seminar A
07:081:329 Seminar in Painting
07:081:331 Design II-A
07:081:343 Media II-A
07:081:351 Painting II-A
07:081:361 Photography II-A
07:081:371 Print II-A
07:081:372 Print II-B
07:081:381 Sculpture II-A
07:081:385 Design Practicum
07:081:421 Drawing III-A
07:081:431 Design III-A
07:081:441 Media III-A
07:081:446 Adv Media A
07:081:451 Painting III-A
07:081:453 Advanced Painting A
07:081:455 Advanced Drawing A
07:081:461 Photography III-A
07:081:463 Adv Photography A
07:081:471 Print III-A
07:081:481 Sculpture III-A
07:081:483 Advanced Sculpture A
07:081:497 Thesis & Exhibition A
08:081:521 Visiting Artist
08:081:525 Research Projects
08:081:625 Research Projects
08:081:675 Graduate Seminar
08:081:676 Graduate Seminar
08:081:677 Nature, Territory, Identity: bla bla
08:081:678 Graduate Seminar
08:081:679 Graduate Seminar
08:081:680 Graduate Seminar
08:081:704 Exhibition
08:208:516 Research Methods
08:208:517 Design Studio I
08:208:616 Thesis I
08:208:617 Design Studio III
08:208:619 Publication and Display  -------------
Explores the methodologies of display and publication strategies. Students formulate varied ways in which design ideas and artifacts can be presented in a public setting. The course focuses on the modalities of display in online and print media as well as installation in public and gallery spaces.
Upon completion of the course, students will be able to:
    Critically evaluate a wide range of publication and display approaches employed in contemporary design practice
    Make their work public in online, print, and installation formats
    Make informed decisions about which display strategies to employ in a particular context
    Engage with new ways of publishing design work

[soggybag]

I never took any business classes, never was offered.

I was required to sit through an hour long session explaining the terms of the student loans. This was very helpful. They pointed out that if I was registered for 6 units each term after graduation I would not have  to start paying my loan, and it would not start accusing interest.

I registered every term at the local community college. I took, drawing, painting, print making, architectural drawing, astronomy, geography, creative writing, and more.

I finally got a decent job and paid my loan off immediately.

[iainpunk]

....you didn't have any mandatory business classes in art school? how would that prepare you for setting up a successful art business?...

I pulled-up an arbitrary US university art school, and I swear I don't see any "sell your stuff" courses. Maybe the very last "Publication and Display" but that's not real business.

    Courses
    ART & DESIGN
07:080:101 The Creative Process Online
07:080:131 Art Appreciation Online
07:080:132 Art Appreciation Online Short Course
07:080:133 Design Appreciation Online
NEW: 07:080:215 Graphic Design for Everybody Online
07:080:233 Multimedia Art: Sound Online
07:080:300 Media Art and You: Creativity in the Digital Age Online
07:080:301 net.art: Visual and Contemporary Arts Practices in Online Media Online
07:080:331 Digital Photo Image Online
07:080:345 Global Perspectives in Design History Online
07:080:431 Social Media for the Arts Online
07:081:121 Drawing Fundamentals
07:081:122 4-D Fundamentals
07:081:200 Sem in Contemp A
07:081:221 Drawing I-A
07:081:227 Visual Thinking I-A
07:081:231 Design I-A
07:081:243 Media I-A
07:081:244 Media I-B
07:081:251 Painting I-A
07:081:261 Photography I-A
07:081:262 Photography I-B
07:081:271 Print I-A
07:081:281 Sculpture I-A
07:081:310 Seminar in Photography
07:081:313 Ceramics Sculpture
07:081:321 Drawing II-A
07:081:324 Figure Drawing
07:081:328 Design Seminar A
07:081:329 Seminar in Painting
07:081:331 Design II-A
07:081:343 Media II-A
07:081:351 Painting II-A
07:081:361 Photography II-A
07:081:371 Print II-A
07:081:372 Print II-B
07:081:381 Sculpture II-A
07:081:385 Design Practicum
07:081:421 Drawing III-A
07:081:431 Design III-A
07:081:441 Media III-A
07:081:446 Adv Media A
07:081:451 Painting III-A
07:081:453 Advanced Painting A
07:081:455 Advanced Drawing A
07:081:461 Photography III-A
07:081:463 Adv Photography A
07:081:471 Print III-A
07:081:481 Sculpture III-A
07:081:483 Advanced Sculpture A
07:081:497 Thesis & Exhibition A
08:081:521 Visiting Artist
08:081:525 Research Projects
08:081:625 Research Projects
08:081:675 Graduate Seminar
08:081:676 Graduate Seminar
08:081:677 Nature, Territory, Identity: bla bla
08:081:678 Graduate Seminar
08:081:679 Graduate Seminar
08:081:680 Graduate Seminar
08:081:704 Exhibition
08:208:516 Research Methods
08:208:517 Design Studio I
08:208:616 Thesis I
08:208:617 Design Studio III
08:208:619 Publication and Display  -------------
Explores the methodologies of display and publication strategies. Students formulate varied ways in which design ideas and artifacts can be presented in a public setting. The course focuses on the modalities of display in online and print media as well as installation in public and gallery spaces.
Upon completion of the course, students will be able to:
    Critically evaluate a wide range of publication and display approaches employed in contemporary design practice
    Make their work public in online, print, and installation formats
    Make informed decisions about which display strategies to employ in a particular context
    Engage with new ways of publishing design work

i think its part of the cultural difference, we don't really get to pick and choose any courses like the US system allows, instead you choose a packet of things that are put together to form a basis to go out in to the real world with. i even had ''professionall skills'' and ''managing'' classes that came with my EE studies.

cheers

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Also, to be able to be successful you'll need more than just the single pedal idea.

Hmmm... Bill Finnegan comes to mind 

[soggybag]

Also, to be able to be successful you'll need more than just the single pedal idea.

Hmmm... Bill Finnegan comes to mind 

The Klon makes an interesting study! Did bill have a plan, or did he have a strategy? I'm not sure what he was thinking. I feel like he had a strategy to make an overdrive that sounded great with fender amps at lower volume.

There was no boutique pedal market at the time and Bill was making an over engineered, sort of premium pedal. I think he put a lot of time into development. He had to be focused on sound more so than other aspects.

The boxes are unique and custom. I can only imagine that he had these designed and manufactured for the Klon. Not cheap to do. But it made a durable and iconic product that stands out.

[Processaurus]

I did some bootweaking the last couple years and learned some interesting lessons.  I could offer these tips I didn't know at the beginning:

-Don't underestimate how difficult it is to market them, when coming up with your pricing.  I ran out of friends and local rockers to sell to and the world doesn't come knocking at the door when you have a pile of great products sitting on the shelf.  You made a youtube video? Congratulations on your 50 views.
-Keep track of every expense and hour worked, including your design time.  Keep a spreadsheet of the top level assembly with supplier and price.  Sourcing parts is a whole task
-Prototype any change. The most minor of part changes or unforeseen hangups can have catastrophic consequences if you have to rework the batch.
-Figure in testing and quality control to the budget, and rework to fix dumb mistakes.  It is hard keeping the quality up.  It's human nature to not be excited about scrutinizing something and paying close attention after the task gets old. Wires get switched, stuff goes in backwards, parts get left out, solder joints get missed or have cold joints; you can do everything right and components can be faulty. It's easy to miss some little thing and you don't want a rep for pedals that show up DOA.
-Pay your taxes, figure that into pricing.  If (in the USA at least) you sell retail, collect sales tax and pay it to the Board of Equalization, if applicable. If you sell wholesale, use a business license to buy components without sales tax- you don't need to pay sales tax on parts that get sold and taxed again.  Prototyping and tools, however, are taxed, because you are the end user.
-If you touch the manufacturing, study how long each operation takes in reasonable size batches.  From this you will have an idea of how it impacts pricing, and also how to schedule workers.  It is very challenging keeping workers busy with steady work.  People don't like unpredictable, intermittent, starty-stoppy work.  The spreadsheet of time budget was very handy and pretty accurate, figuring out how long the work will take.

All in all, I made about $18-20/hr, which on one hand I'm proud of, that the process was tight enough it was possible to keep from starving doing small quantity manufacturing of unique products in the USA, but it really is disappointing money for electronics design, assembly, and managing a business.  Those skills make much more money in a market that isn't saturated by people doing it as a hobby.  Re: the OP's question, I stuffed the boards in house with tweezers and a reflow oven, I think that could be done cheaper, especially in the 200x quantity, just ordering the PCBA's from somewhere that can load up the pick and place machine.  For a turn key option, farming out the entire manufacturing, I got a bid from All-Pedal, and it was little more than it cost me to do them in house (I think that is intentional), but not everyone feels like running a little factory or has the space and tools and workers.  If I were doing the 200x, I think I would order the PCBs stuffed, order the boxes machined, and do the offboard wiring, final assembly and testing in house.  But be thinking about a different career if there's a mortgage to pay and mouths to feed...

[Mark Hammer]

Also, to be able to be successful you'll need more than just the single pedal idea.

Hmmm... Bill Finnegan comes to mind 

And the folks who came out with the Jangle Box weren't far behind.