RG, JD check this out.

[mikeb]

JD, for one thing you can get your web guys to mod your site so that outside links redirect to the main page (i.e. 'referring page was outside of domain then show page x, otherwise show required page'). Then, on the main page put something in the appropriate language that explains what the other guy is doing is wrong.

Mike

[puretube]

We`ve got tonite`s 1st winner:

Just out of interest, I wonder how the guys at Boss feel knowing that tonepad/ggg are selling a pcb that is actually advertised on the site as a 'Boss SD-1' ... or MXR with their Phase 45 & Phase 90 tradenames ?.....

http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?p=151057#151057

[casey]

JD, for one thing you can get your web guys to mod your site so that outside links redirect to the main page (i.e. 'referring page was outside of domain then show page x, otherwise show required page'). Then, on the main page put something in the appropriate language that explains what the other guy is doing is wrong.

Mike

this is a good idea, except it's only temporary (i think), but a good idea none the less.

[Paul Marossy]

I don't think BOSS cares about a few people ripping them off so to speak. For one, most of their pedals are complex enough (compared to a Fuzz Face or something) that the average joe won't try to build them, let alone sell them for profit. Second, a large corporation in most cases can absorb whatever tiny losses may occur if a few people successfully build their own. It's a different story with a "small time" maker. It's a lot harder to absorb the losses.

Copyright violation is never right, or justified. I do agree in principle that if helps to promote the author's business, why not? But the law is the law.

[Alpha579]

Its completely wrong to do what hes doing, which is, as you say, pure stealing. As to the boss/mxr layouts on tonepad, i dont think this is a huge matter, as boss wont really bother with the few diy'ers who want to build something that complex...Im not saying its completely right, but its a matter of far less importance. For example, would a billionare really care if a homeless guy stole his piggybank with $20 in it? No, but replace that billionare with another homeless guy, and suddenly that $20 is alot more important...

Just my 13 year old opinion:)

[Torchy]

The point is one set of people who have used tradenames and designs from one company to sell something (pcbs), are complaining that someone else is doing the same to them by actually using those pcbs.

I personally dont care what Boss or MXR think, but it IS double standards.

And dont get me started on ZVex schematics ...  :oops:

[Fp-www.Tonepad.com]

Puretube,

I am selling the product of an artwork in which you can build a certain circuit or part of it.

I am not copying any of BOSS's copyrighted information, and not violating any of their intelectual property.

You are right about advertising using their names, but that's a trademark and it belongs to them. You can't by any means duplicate a boss or MXR or any other pedal in one of my boards at all.

Fp

[Lonestarjohnny]

Guy's, Where you need to draw the line on these double standard's is, every DAM amp on the face of this earth has Leo Fender in it, Now, the difference is, you can borrow a little of this and that out of a circuit and no one get's mad, But you start puttin part's that have Fender on it, or like the certain shape of a guitar body or a famous headstock on it and call it your's your in trouble,
Commen Sense awta tell ya , DON'T DOIT,
Boss, I'm sure if they don't like it they'll put a stop to it, and they do have the money to nail your hide on the wall !
Common Decency should be your rule of Thumb, for sure in this line a work, if you want a good name and a good strong product you need to be above doing dirty deed's,
just my 2 Cent's.      
JD

[joao bernardo]

This is the first time I see Brazil mentioned in this forum, and I felt bad. I don't want to choose wright or wrong, but I wanted to share this feeling. And, yes, I'm from Brazil, too.

[Fret Wire]

When I look at FP's site, I see projects that are referenced by their trademark names, but the layouts and schem's have their own names, and don't resemble the original's artwork at all. Disto-Uno, El Griton, Pez 90, etc.

As far as this new site, that's pathetic. Not even the Russian sites are this blatent. Hopefully, he'll cease or get a licensing agreement.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

I don't think BOSS cares about a few people ripping them off so to speak.

I think you are wrong there, because I have a fat stack of papers from Roland's USA lawyers complasing about my Frostwave SpaceBeam optical theremin. I pointed out to them it was using 1960s technology & nothinbg to do with the D-beam. Fortunately they accepted my point, if they had decided to take me to court they would have won by default, how could I pay for a US lawyer? I live on less than $100 per week.

[Paul Marossy]

Paul-

Well, I meant a few DIYers, not a business selling a product derived from a Roland design. That's different. A business could steal revenue and also violate copyright(s). It seems to me that whenever money is involved they will jump right on it.

I guess the same thing goes for trademarks. I used to work for a company called Comfort Engineering. Their slogan used to be "Comfort By Design", meaning indoor comfort is acheived by good air conditioning design. One day, the owners received a letter from some builder (on the other side of the U.S. from where we are) stating that they must immediately stop using the phrase "comfort by design" because it was a registered trademark, blah, blah, blah. I thought the whole thing was stupid because we provided a service, they provided a product, neither of which could ever possibly in competition with eachother, and therefore could not affect eachother's revenue. Now, if we were a builder, we could be in direct competition with them, and then maybe you could make a case. I suppose next, someone is going to try to copyright the English language. Then none of us could talk or write anything because we would be violating a copyright.

At the core of the matter, sometimes I think these companies and their lawyers are like a bunch of children saying "I was here first" and "you can't have that" and "Mine!".

[puretube]

Puretube,

I am selling the product of an artwork in which you can build a certain circuit or part of it.

I am not copying any of BOSS's copyrighted information, and not violating any of their intelectual property.

You are right about advertising using their names, but that's a trademark and it belongs to them. You can't by any means duplicate a boss or MXR or any other pedal in one of my boards at all.

Fp

still haven`t found an A for my 1st Q:
does the bras. guy indeed use tonepad`s own (and hence (c) - stuff) PCB-layout, where you guys sure have sweated on (no pun intended )
for the production of his units,
or does he just point towards that site and says: "hey, I sell products, which sounds like "X", see the explanation on their site",
while drawing up his own PCB traces according to a circuit-drawing he found at tonepad?


The other question is the moral thing:

how do I feel, when trying to make money by selling clone-kits
of products which:

> some people/companies have hard-laboured on for years,
"inventing"/designing it, trying to protect it from noses,
marketing it, paying for the developing of it,
making it famous/desirable, trying to get the investment returned,
trying to be innovative...a.s.o. <

by pointing at those "real market" products to pique an interest?
(i.e.: naming them "based on the famous....")

This moral thing lies extremely close to the warped thin legal line...

[Torchy]

Tonepad ...

I dont give a flying **** whether your pcb designs are different from Boss pcbs, or your circuits are different from Boss circuits. Read this carefully ...

YOU ARE USING THE BOSS TRADENAME TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO BUY YOUR PCBs.

If not then why do you mention the name

If a regular guy wants to build a distortion box, he has an idea in his head of a) what he wants and b) what the big boys pedals sound like. He visits your site. Oo - look, a Boss SD-1, or a Brass-o-distortoblaster. Which one will he pick ? If he was technically savvy, he'd have researched getting the sound he wants and probably designed his own, but like I said hes a regular joe, cant make his own pcbs and will make his choice differently than you or I would ie based on the familiar Boss tradename. Do not base your arguments on the technically adept and competent users of your site - I would suggest the vast majority are novices in electronics/diy which is why they buy your pcbs. Try dropping the tradenames and watch what happens to sales volume. I speak from experience, after a colleague had to drop tradenames from his products in very similar circs. He went bust inside a year, as he had no branding to support his products (he made extremely good speaker cabinets).

I wish people would stop bitching about it until they are morally, ethically, and legally untouchable. These double-standards are pervasive here, and are spoiling the forum.

[Fp-www.Tonepad.com]

Torchy,
You haven't began to understand what the topic is about.

I feel kind of sorry for you.

Fp

[Fp-www.Tonepad.com]

Puretube,

Granted he doesn't say that he's using the layouts, but he does use the exact list from both our sites, so unless he's VERY good at making his own layouts, or he's been designing them for a few years, he's using our copyrighted material. Besides, if he was doing his own, don't you think he might have at least one that we don't have?

I'm not making money selling kits. What I do is try to make money by selling the product of my hard work. I DO reffer to the trademark names because that's just the only way to let people know what they CAN build on the board if they use the suggested parts. This is perfectly ok, I'm not stealing anything or taking anything away from them.

Fp

ps: for being a person who has given a lot to the comunity, including the service of making the actual boards for them, I really expected a bit more support and less attacks.

[EdJ]

I don`t understand the *attacks*towards tonepad at all.
The entire music industry is based on taking from and adding some.Muscisians have done so for thousands of years,as have luthiers and the electronics industry.
Greetings,Ed

[RDV]

Francisco:

No attacks here, just a question. If someone by chance wants to pay me to build them a pedal, and I buy a PCB from you to put in it, is that all right? I mean, once I pay you for the PCB, then I'm free too use that one PCB however I see fit, right? I mean as long as I'm not taking your artwork and making my own PCB, and then making money on it(therefore cutting you out of the loop?

Regards

RDV

[jimbob]

When i first seen the site ( Bras guy) I thought..hmmm what a thief..Then i realized i really didnt care..Not my problem..But as far as FP-Tonepad goes,  its unfortunate and i hope it does work out for him-Great Site!! an awsome help to the community...Im not a moralist and wont pretend to be..so i wont get into it..Its great we all have different opinions here as im often amused, entertained, and educated by the comments left.

Keep it up boys!  Whats the old saying? "Opinions are like assholes..we all have them..

BTW= Good luck FP-Tonepad!!!  Maybe karma's around the corner? Maybe his site gets hacked and crashes? Maybe ..maybe..maybe.. It all works out in the end.  :lol: :wink:  :lol:

[Marcos - Munky]

I don't agree with the attacks to Tonepad.com. Francisco have all the layouts online for free, but ask for personal use only (not to generate money). He don't sell effects for cheaper than the original companies sold them, but sell the board for people that don't know how to etch a board or don't have skills to etch a complicated board (his layouts are VERY complicated to do manually). He sell the boards only, not the complete effect. And I think it's correct to use names like Boss or MXR, because you can build the effects in the boards, but he isn't selling a clone of the effect.