"Who/what's the best/worst/most/least...?"

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello-
    If I've been playing guitar [or fixing them] all week long and then get a phone call from an old friend who wants to talk about psychedelic music from the '60's [or whatever the topic...]  I feel grateful for the break in my mental process as well as grateful for connecting with fond memories.
I like off topics every now-and-then........keeps the juices "fresh"!
The forum is fine the way it is, Aron, thank you!
Brian.

[Paul Marossy]

I'm not worried about it. Overall, this is one of best and liveliest forums about guitar related stuff on the 'net, IMO. I know it's supposed to be only about stompboxes, but stompboxes involves amps, and guitars, so I personally don't get offended by a few OT threads talking about this stuff. And the occasional "oh crap, I sat on my soldering iron" or "I shocked myself and wet my pants" threads are good reminders to use good safety precautions. And once in a while, a good laugh doesn't hurt. The occasional amp questions I ask here are because I know I can get results here. Ampage used to be pretty good, but sometimes posts will go unanswered for days, weeks, or never.

There does seem to be more OT threads lately, but I don't expect this forum to go down the tubes at this point. I guess time will tell.

[1wahfreak]

I'm not sure if the keepers of this forum would be willing, but one solution (we're not even sure if it's a problem yet) may be to open up seperate topic areas within the site sort of like Aharon suggested. Places like http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/  does a pretty good job of seperating topics. I'm sure there will be some overlap of topics but those of you who do not want to roam around those areas don't have to while those who want to go off on tangants may do so. This may turn the site into something that wasn't originally intended but because this forum has offshoot topics like amps, music and "opps, I crapped my pants", maybe we should provide a place for them.    

[Mark F]

I tend to agree with R.G. Also, I don't think he was referring to O.T. posts pertaining to tubes, amps or guitars etc. I apologize R.G. if I misinterperated you. I believe he was referring to exactly what the topic of the post states. Who, what is your favorite, the best, etc. Just my 2 cents

[brett]

Maybe the factual/technical/consensual (including amps, guitars, etc) is worth separating from opinions/individual (including amps, guitars, etc)?  There are probably fewer "grey areas" than you might first imagine (that's an opinion, not a fact :wink: ).

[R.G.]

Also, I don't think he was referring to O.T. posts pertaining to tubes, amps or guitars etc. I apologize R.G. if I misinterperated you. I believe he was referring to exactly what the topic of the post states. Who, what is your favorite, the best, etc.

No apology needed in any case, but you're dead on. OT stuff on tube amps, fixing SS amps, practically anything electronic related to music is related to the focus here.

The posts I was worried about were indeed the ones asking about favorite (insert anything here)'s. There is not and can not be an answer to those other than everybody's got a favorite whatever. The question may be posed looking for information, but the only answer possible is always the same - everybody's got one, and they're all different.

The worst ones are trolls where the poster deliberately tries to induce a slew of "is so - is not - is so - is not -is so - is not -is so - is not -is so - is not -..." responses. This only takes up the forum room and space and cannot possibly have any relevance other than gossip and blather. Those may appeal to a juvenile sense of joy at outraging others, but they don't, and cannot possibly help anyone who's looking for information.

[Michael P.]

Several years ago an acquaintance of mine - one I've since lost contact with - told me of a guitar player named ****** who played with ******; phenomenal, original, beautiful, all the usual hype, but I trusted his opinion. Despite the fact that I then managed a used LP store, we didn't have any his recordings for me to check out, and the name of the guitarist and his band just slipped from my memory, as it is want to do as I get older. I'd remember the recommendation from time to time, but not the artist.

So I was quite happy the other day when, reading the recent thread on fave guitarists, I ran across the name "Ollie Halsall" - there it is! And as soon as I saw the name, "Patto" came to mind as the recommended band.
Now, if I ever forget it again (likely :wink: ), I can always come back and check the thread.

I agree with R.G.'s premise, and have noticed the same thing on other forums. Threads like the one I referred to, however, while out of the mainstream of this forum's particular focus, have a lot to say about why we started in this in the first place, and staying in touch with that primal love is a pretty healthy thing.

Let's just not start trading recipes.

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello-
     Hey, how come this thread hasn't been moved to the Lounge???
Brian.

[Lonestarjohnny]

Who ? Me, That's Who, What's the Best ? U expect me to Kiss and Tell, Noway Jose, Worst ? Me at my Best !  :lol: Most ? Never been told that !
Least ? Hear that crap all the time !
:roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :wink:
Here's Johnny

[Boofhead]

Ha, nothing new to me - I see this happening on almost all forums.

- The early years of the internet provided a means for people who are *genuinely* interested in topics to group together.  Such people have been doing this stuff for *years* (they are more or less pro's in the field) - they find it great to talk to people like themselves.

- The internet becomes more popular, and a more "general audience" steps onto the same platform as the pro's.  The general audience is impressed with the knowledge and tends to lurk but then finally jump in.  The posts become noisier and less to the point.

- Since the majority of posters are in the mid-field, the overall quality of the posts drops and the vibe of the group changes.  There is a general tendency for people to understand post which are at or below their own level. The pro's become frustrated because the noise level in the posts has increased - some leave.

- Some stay and try to keep the balance

- The noise gets unbearable for any sane person.

- Most of the Pro's leave because they are wasting their time.

- The constituents of the group are now much different to when the group started.

-  The process continues.....you end up with something like TV which fits the lowest common denominator.  There's only occasional bursts of useful information - which goes by most of the remaining population anyway ....

- The world turns to sh*t.

[ExpAnonColin]

I don't particularly agree or disagree, but RG, do you think replying "That's on my website." to perfectly on topic and reasonable threads really helps the situation?

There's no reason to keep a forum atmosphere cold and constantly on topic. Then it's boring.  That's the GG forum, everyone's asking questions about their rigs, different stompboxes (does this oscillate?  Does that oscillate?), and there's no personality there.  HC is on the other side, there's a lot more OT stuff.  Either works for me, I go to both.

-Colin

[MartyB]

From Aron Nelson's Stompbox Forum page   "About":     "I admit it!!! I love distortion pedals. I love the guitar. I love playing solos with distortion. Even though I am 10X the keyboard player that I am a guitarist, I still love distortion pedals and the guitar. I used to play guitar during High School and College but keyboards keep me busy and gigging. However, it doesn't stop me from putting my guitars into any recording project I happen to be doing. I hope you share my passion for distortion pedals and the guitar."':D
...It's music, right?  Here's my muse:  I like the 'what's your favorite' threads usually.  I agree with Joe Hart, Joe Davisson and Brian Wenz.  You can skip whatever isn't interesting to you.  There's too many different levels of understanding about this common interest of stompbox building IMHO to limit discussions.  Common opinions occur commonly.  Sharing experiences is maybe the most valuable part of coming to this forum.  I love reading about effects, tones I don't know about.  It's communion.  If we are talking about the decline in thinking, purpose, use of the forum then it's Aron's and Pete's deal to correct.  My electronics skills are all self-taught, as are my boxbuilding skills.  This forum has helped me do those things.  Even if I couldn't build a rangemaster, this place would be fun to visit and learn about how guitarists make those tones.

[R.G.]

I don't particularly agree or disagree, but RG, do you think replying "That's on my website." to perfectly on topic and reasonable threads really helps the situation?

Actually, yes, Colin, I do. Here's why.

There are two ways to learn. You can learn when you think of a question to ask, and you can learn by discovering things that you haven't asked the questions for yet.

Beginners often don't even know the questions yet. When they run into one, it's a lot more helpful to them to not only answer their question, but also to show them where they can learn about the questions they have not yet thought of asking; where they can avoid falling into the next hole.

That's the whole point of FAQs, Colin - a beginner can get up to speed very quickly without the collective group having to re-answer those questions over and over. I love FAQs - I'll read through practically every one I find just because I know that those are the things that I'm likely to run into myself.

For myself, I vastly prefer "that's on this website" to a typed answer when I ask them. I learn a lot more and I tend to devour most of the pointed-to website when I get something like that.

In all modesty, I think that getting a newbie pointed to a whole steaming pot full of answers to questions he hasn't thought of as well as the one he has is a lot more helpful. Your opinion may vary, as is your perfect right.

I'd be happy to discuss that with you if you think re-typing the answer to the 1000th iteration of the same question over and over is better.

[aron]

That's the whole point of FAQs, Colin - a beginner can get up to speed very quickly without the collective group having to re-answer those questions over and over. I love FAQs - I'll read through practically every one I find just because I know that those are the things that I'm likely to run into myself.

I have to agree with R.G. here. I think showing a beginner where to look is a lot more important than providing an immediate answer to their particular problem.

Chances are, they will encounter another problem that is common and then the cycle will continue. If you point them to the FAQ, then a whole lot of problems will get solved much faster.

I always said, if you see things missing in the FAQ, write me and let me know what to add. I will be glad to add anything to the FAQ.

At the beginning it may seem somewhat "cold" to point someone to the FAQ, but I believe most people will be happy to discover the treasure of a FAQ that is tailored to their hobby.

The reality is that if a person doesn't want to read and learn and wants everything "spoon fed" to them, they will probably no go very far with this hobby.

The reason why I didn't move this into the lounge is because I think it's a very important thread.

[ExpAnonColin]

I don't disagree with you, but, I find that
A) Beginners, when presented with a website, often don't have the knowledge under their belt to understand the answer to the level it is targetted at
B) Often on websites the answer is too narrow
C) There is no interaction or specificity

For example, let's say someone is trying to design something with Op-amps using a schematic they found on the net that assumes bipolar power supplies and makes the mistake of grounding instead of putting to vBias.  So, they ask the question, and someone replies "That's in Aron's FAQ's."  Well, it is:

Well, V.R. is voltage reference and 1/2V+ is 1/2 of your most positive voltage (usually 9 volts). Usually they are one and the same and you can typically see V.R. connected to a resistor that connects to the input of an op amp as in the Shaka Braddah 3, The Rat and many others. Basically if you see 4.5V or V.R. or 1/2V+ ( all the same), you find all the places on the schematic that reference the label and connect them together. So all of the places that reference V.R. would connect together; one of the connections actually creates V.R. or 1/2V+. The connection that usually creates V.R. or 1/2V+ aka 4.5V (for a 9V battery) usually is a voltage divider. Typically two identical resistors, one to V+ (such as 9V), the other to ground. The place where they connect is V.R. or 1/2V+.
(schem here)
An example of 1/2V+ also known as V.R., V.B., VREF, 1/2V+ etc

After reading that, the person still doesn't understand how that creates a bipolar supply.  Nor do they understand that op amps need bipolar supplies, etc, etc.  Yes, it does answer the question, but with all websites, FAQs, etc, it assumes that the reader has a certain amount of knowledge before reading it that they may or may not-and the only way to fix that is for the reader to ask another question.  The answer:
"well, that's on this website."

-Colin

[R.G.]

C) There is no interaction or specificity

I think followup questions get a lot of interaction and/or specificity.

I can construct questions all day that will miss the data on web sites. But you need to start somewhere, right? I can't remember ever refusing to answer a question like "I coudn't find it..." or "I still don't understand."

Actually, one of my longer term goals is to write a start-from-zero intro to electronics for beginners. The first stuff is at GEO under "How It Works", and the title is intended to be a hint about the future content. It's to address specifically the "I don't know nothin' but I wanna build a MegaBlaster..." guys' questions with more than a "Ah, I see, you must have confused ground with the bias voltage."

The reason they need more is that the logical progression from there is: "Bias voltage? That's a voltage intended to put things in the active region. Active region? That's the set of voltages/currents that makes things do what you want. Bias? That's any provision you've made to set the active devices in their active regions so it acts like it's supposed to. Voltage? That's equivalent to electric field pressure? Electric field? That's the measurable interaction between electrically charged subatomic particles. Subatomic particles? Those are the most visibly interactive constituents of all matter, but they're too small to see."

... running back along the chain until there is some common ground found.

I think I do a pretty good job of answering questions, and only pointing to relevant material. But that's just me. I'm perfectly willing to sit and give out a lesson on practically anything. But I can't type fast enough to re-answer questions that are already answered pretty well on the net, especially the corner I know best of it.

Tell you what - I'll point to information for them, you hug 'em.  )

That way we'll get them both informed and feeling warm and fuzzy.

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello Aron--
   I agree that it's an important thread!  Aren't the "Lounge" threads important, too??    Maybe the thread could have been in both sections??
Brian.

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello Again--
     Sometimes beginners aren't  really looking for the "correct" answer so much as finding a reason to keep coming back to the forum!
Brian.

[aron]

Hello Hello Aron--
   I agree that it's an important thread!  Aren't the "Lounge" threads important, too??    Maybe the thread could have been in both sections??
Brian.

The lounge threads should not be important to the context of this DIY stompboxes forum.

They are important for us to have fun and interact, but they will roll off and not be saved - unlike the threads in this forum.

That's a big distinction.

[aron]

Hello Hello Again--
     Sometimes beginners aren't  really looking for the "correct" answer so much as finding a reason to keep coming back to the forum!
Brian.

The reason should be to make pedals and to find out how. I guess what I am saying is that there's a reason for a FAQ, to answer the common asked questions. I don't think it's fair for people that have helped for the last 5+ years to have to always answer the same questions over and over.

That's why I created the beginner forum - so the people could ask those questions and get the answers there and in the FAQ.