UNIVOX - super fuzz ..... what's up ?

[MartyMart]

Perhaps I'm missing some "mojo" here .... and please excuse me if I
sound like a "miserable limey" but here goes.....
Torchy sent me a good univox superfuzz schem some time ago and I liked
the idea of a "six tranny fuzz/octave monster" !
I veroboarded it ( 2 hrs ) and spent another hr just soldering and cutting
off leads ! ( its a BIG circuit !)
After a small de-bug ( 1 cap node not connected ) I had a "worker"
Using "Keens second law" I filled it with 2N5088's with an MPSA18 at Q6
I also added the 10k trimmer between the 22k's of the back to back
octave section, and can "tune in" a nice oct up !

But .... its sounding a bit "splatty" ,,, it creates a lot of "hiss" and i'm not
over the moon with the sound, which is almost the same as RDV's clips
but perhaps not quite as "big"  !

So, what can i do ?  do I really have to use those awful & expensive
2N2222's  !!
Any other tranny suggestions ? and what about the bias/noise problem!

:cry:
I was expecting SO much, and maybe this is "meant" to sound this way!
- which at present is NOT as nice as a good "FuzzFace" - as far as the
normal "fuzz" setting goes

BTW, everything including the switching works fine....... :shock:

Marty.

[Dirk_Hendrik]

Sorry for not beiing able to help you with a possible problem but the results you describe are exactly my experience with the "real" thing. I never understood why this is such a popular fuzz.

Mine uses 2SC356 trannies. Maybe that's some help somewhere along the way.

[MartyMart]

Dirk, thanks for your honesty !
The "notched" setting sounds a bit like my "Psychtar" - but that's a lot more fun
and took a quater of the time to make !!!
To put it in context, I guess its made for "monophonic" lines only and for
that, it is nice with the "octave" which BTW is a strong one  
I've built an awful lot of circuits in the last year, and I think that I need to
use my breadboard more ..... I'm finding that quite a few just dont survive the course !
Not because they have "problems" though one or two do, just that they were fun
to make but don't "suit" my style/taste .
Anyhow, I'll continue with it for a while and maybe get some more transistors in
there, I've tried about 20 combinations, with not much change ..!!

Marty.

[Dirk_Hendrik]

I've tried about 20 combinations, with not much change ..!!
Marty.

So, first assumption, The transistors are not the essental point to start off when altering the sound?

Not because they have "problems" though one or two do, just that they were fun to make but don't "suit" my style/taste .

That was my experience with the Tychobrahe as well as the Foxx tone clone I built. Both these fella's seem to be very popular but don't seem to work for me.
As long as you don't start boxing them up these are relatively simple and cheap builds so it doesn't hurt.

[R.G.]

Using "Keens second law" I filled it with 2N5088's with an MPSA18 at Q6

So, first assumption, The transistors are not the essental point to start off when altering the sound?

There's a lot of wisdom there. The reason Keen's Second Law works is that for most silicon transistor based devices, the transistor type does not make a big difference in tone. Hiss, maybe. RF performance, sure. Usually not tone.

The place to look for your tone issues is first in the EQ - what frequencies are raised/lowered before clipping so they'll be clipped more/less respectively, and then EQ after clipping to determine what voicing the created buzzzzz will be given.

Second is in the clipping section itself for symmetry/asymmetry, to determine which harmonics and intermodulation will be generated to be voiced.

[RDV]

Not every Fuzz says the same thing to everybody. I just love scritchy sounding god-awful noisemakers. I just alter my style to the fuzz. The one that doesn't do it for me is the Fuzzface of all things, they bore me to tears.

RDV

[Mark Hammer]

If you stick all the Superfuzz redraws, issues, clones, and siblings (Ace-Tone, Honey, Companion, etc.) up in front of you, one of the things you'll note is that there seem to be two versions of the mid-scoop filter.  This was drawn to my attention when I went to describe the filter to someone (sometimes, I guess there ARE advantages to having a hard time attaching things to e-mails), and couldn't remember clearly whether the 22k resistor came first or the 10k resistor came first.  Turns out, my lack of clarity was because the order of these two components tended to be changed from time to time.

Though the altered sequence of these two components likely plays no role in the amount of high end delivered by the .001uf bypass cap in the scoop filter, changing the 10k for 22k will alter where the scoop begins on the low end.  In particular, sticking the 22k resistor "first" will chop a huge amount of bass out.  That may or may not be responsible for some of the differences in how thrilling the tone is to different people.

A second aspect is the level matching of the two complementary signal halves to produce octaving.  While not the best octave-up fuzz around in terms of producing audible octaves, there are better and worse attempts to achieve "octavity" with the basic Superfuzz circuit.  One of the things that helps is the version with the added trimpot to balance out the contribution of each "side" of the signal coming from the phase-splitter.

Another variation I've noted between schems are the resistor values at the base of the two transistors used in the octave-generation part.  In one of the older posted schems, the "left" transistor in this face-to-face pair has a 22k resistor from V+ to base and another 22k from base to ground.  The other transistor has 100k units in the same corrssponding positions.  It would seem from the various other schems and SF equivalents, that this *should* be 100k from V+ to base on both, and 22k from base to ground.

It is still quite possible that the SF just isn't your taste, but I suppose one ought not to rule schem discrepancies as a basis for such aesthetic disagrewements until all component differences have been ruled out.  Simply saying that one "built it", and noting transistor differences/choices, does not account for all component differences.   At the same time, as much as I find the SF a pleasing sound, if I had to whip up a compact pedalboard with one distortion on it, the SF would NOT be my first choice either.

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello Marty--
       I had exactly the same problem with my  Kay Fuzz [kind of a "Super Fuzz Lite...]  I found out that the first two trannys in the circuit were supposed to have gains of around 400hfe while the second pair of trannys
were to be around 200hfe.  After spending some time fooling with the bias  of the second stage [ put a 100K pot in the circuit and started twiddeling....]  the thing sounded GREAT!   Big, fat, gnarly fuzz.........a bit of octave, too.
Don't give up!
Brian.

[Dirk_Hendrik]

For the component values, I found that out today when adding that trimpot in my Rands branded SF to see if I could get the thing more into my taste. The schematics I found online say the Emmiter resistor for the 2 octave generataing resistors. Schematics say it's a 1K8. In my case it was a 1k5. Base resistors are both 22k to ground and 100K to Vcc.

That is like in this schemmo but with the absence of the trimpot:
http://filters.muziq.be/files/schematics/unicord_superfuzz.gif

If you stick all the Superfuzz redraws, issues, clones, and siblings (Ace-Tone, Honey, Companion, etc.)

Leaves me with one question (for now). Is the Univox the original on which the siblings are based or is the Univox one of the many brands under which Shin-Ei/Companion made this pedal?

[MartyMart]

Thank you chaps, for all your input
I used the exact same schem as RDV did, which has the "octave pair" with 100k's from 9v to base and also 22k's from base to my (new - thanks RG ?) trimmer, then ground from trim wiper.
RDV, thanks for the tip about the divider at the "normal/scoop" eq section
I also replaced that 10k with a 22k and the balance of both tones is perfect
The one and ONLY change I've made, which may be a problem ( sorry!) is the use of 2k2's where the 1k8 collector resistors occur...... I could use
1k5's .. ? .... that may have my bias slightly out but I doubt it.....
comments ?

Brian, I did try many pairs for "gain" changes, but as has been said, the
transistors really are NOT making much difference, other than "level" drops
when lower hfe's are used.
I've stuck with 5 2N5088's and the MPSA18 at the output, came back to that
after two hours of "fiddling"  !!
BTW 5X CV7112 Ge's also sounded quite good and not any worse as far as bias goes !!

I summize, by saying that I like my "Fuzz" smooth, not too thin and without any
"nasty" stuff in there, other than for a special effect . . . . .
Just my preference, nothing personal  :shock:

I'm quite proud of the fact that I could "lay this out" on vero.......
AND it WORKS !!!
Not bad for a dumb-ass keyboard player...... :oops:

Regards to all,
Marty.

[Nasse]

Think this

from late sixties to seventies
bad sounding fuzz
commonly available
cheap
makes you think "why does my system sound like that hit record"

At least made me to think in 1973 that there is big differences between some fuzzes, and did my first diy fuzz because was not satisfied with superfuzz

Maybe I was not the only one

[Joe Kramer]

Hi!

Hey Marty, it might help explain your disappointment some to imagine two broad categories of Fuzz:

1) "Effect" type fuzz, which has little or no response to players' dynamic touch sense, and which drastically alters or nearly effaces the original tone of the instrument

2) "Enhancement" type fuzz, which reponds well to players' touch, and has a more "supplementing"  result on the tone of the instrument.

If you accept these two categories for the moment, then the Super Fuzz would fall into category #1, and the Fuzz Face would fall more in category #2.  If you were seeking the second and got the first instead, it's quite understandable your expectations might be shot down!  

Regards,
Joe

[jmusser]

I really liked RDVs samples, but I'm not sure I would want a steady diet of it. If I'm gettin Joe right he's talking about "one trick ponies" as opposed to versatile fuzzes? To me, the SOU falls in the one trick pony category, where something like the Tripple Fuzz, Simple Square Wave Shaper, and Whisker Biscuit falls into the versatile range. Some of the other fuzzes are just cool because they make totally different tones, but even though they're versatile, they are still kind of one trick ponies because you can't play them in very many contexts, like the Ugly Face, and Crash Sync. I think this is a good topic you brought up Joe, on how do you catagorize these things. Some of them give you fuzz and no dynamics at all, where others are make you sound better than you actually are at times, just because of the way they react to your picking style.

[MartyMart]

Joe, that seems about right !
Some improvements :
Added a 1N4148 for assym crunch - nice !
Sticking a Boss/Ibanez pedal ( with buffer ) up front makes a HUGE
difference !!
Big "Knarley" FUZZ !!!  

M.

[Joe Kramer]

Joe, that seems about right !

Cool!  Glad it helps.

I just remember a band I was in (350 years ago), the other guitarist used a Super Fuzz as his "lead" fuzz, kicking it in when he took a solo, and it was the weirdest, stiffest, brittlest sound you can imagine--the very opposite of the Eric Johnson "hundred-pound violin" sound.  I shunned the Super Fuzz until I finally realized later it was more of a "context" thing.  A weed is just plant that no one has yet found a good use for, right?

Regards,
Joe

[jmusser]

Marty, somewhere at the house, I have a mod R.G. suggested on the Super Fuzz to get the most out of the octave portion. He has a trimmer set up on the back to back transistors, that evens out the biasing I believe, to make each of the pair close to identical therefore matching the two and bringing out the maximum octave available form the circuit. If you want it, just E mail me. I know what you mean about the disappointment. I just built the Tycho the other day which I consider (sound sample wise anyway) to be the king octave box. I may still get it to do what Tobias gets it to do on the sound sample pushing it with something else, but for right now, it just a very good distortion pedal, and not really up to the hype. Like I said, on the review, it gave me something unexpected though, and that's a very close Iomi tone, because of it's up octave grit. I was really expecting it to get a Star Spangled Banner tone, but who knows, it may be the RM Octavia that will end up doing that. I guess each schematic and sound sample should come with a "Your Results May Vary" :roll:  That's why I waited so long to build it, I had heard Tobias's great sample, and I really wanted "THAT" tone when I was finished with it. It's not that it's hasn't got a great sound, or may someway through other equipment get that sound, but right now, it's definitely not that effect on the sample. "Sigh"

[MartyMart]

Marty, somewhere at the house, I have a mod R.G. suggested on the Super Fuzz to get the most out of the octave portion. He has a trimmer set up on the back to back transistors, that evens out the biasing I believe, to make each of the pair close to identical therefore matching the two and bringing out the maximum octave available form the circuit. If you want it, just E mail me.

I've done that Jeff, look back at the first post ......but thanks for the support !
Joe's point is a good one, there are many "noise makers" which are a 1 or a few trick pony, some are just "pony" ( %^&*ney rhyming slang for
"crap"   ie: pony and trap - crap  !! ) I LOVE my "Psychtar" and its going
"in a box" soon.. as will the "Phozer" WGTP's "Distron-Thrust" and my "ShedMaster"....
As I said, I'm just happy to have learned something about what I'm doing
with circuits, enough to "build" from a schem and even "invent" some
small but useful circuits  
Before going out tonight I had my TS-9, Boss OC-2 and a chorus in front
of the Super Fuzz..... WOW  very nice, kind of a "Moog" synth tone, with
some wobble from the chorus and the extra 2 octaves from the Boss...!!

Here's a thing,
Just got hold of another "HAO" pedal, the "Sole Pressure" - which apparently "sounds like a Fender 4x10 bassman" ... yeah right !!
The ROG Peppermill just "POO"S" all over it ...... It's just a single op-amp
LED to ground clipper, with almost zero volume boost ... !!!
It's all in the Marketing  eh ??

Cheers,

Marty. :roll:

[jmusser]

I reread your first post, and since I didn't have the schematic in front of me, I didn't know if we were talking about the same thing or not. You must be off the road for awhile. Good to see you hanging around.

[MartyMart]

I reread your first post, and since I didn't have the schematic in front of me, I didn't know if we were talking about the same thing or not. You must be off the road for awhile. Good to see you hanging around.

Thanks Jeff
I'm 3/4 way through a Boss AC-2 on vero ..... I swear it's going to make
me "blind" ...  4X Dual op-amps and about 150 components on a piece
thats 6cm X 6cm .. 25 strips X 25 holes ...to fit a 1590BB    !  :roll:  !
I have some "interesting" X board runs and at one "node" 4X components
arriving at one expanded "hole"   .... aaarrrggghhhh  !!!

If it works ( which I doubt very much ) I'm going to celebrate with some
champagne ..... so I could have just bought the "Boss" version anyway!!
------ I LIKE A CHALLENGE ------

Marty - AKA - sad obsessive builder  :roll:

Hold on.... that's "S.O.B"  son of a b***h   !!!  :lol:

[petemoore]

I have some "interesting" X board runs and at one "node" 4X components
arriving at one expanded "hole" .... aaarrrggghhhh !!!
 When I run out of real estate or things' get so tight, I start building bridges'...it turns the circuit into sort of a 2 story building, a second floor for more population than one floor can handle easily.