Author Topic: Baking painted boxes for durability = myth  (Read 16087 times)

markr04

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« on: July 27, 2005, 01:00:47 PM »
I had a gut feeling that baking painted boxes for durability was a myth, but wanted more than a gut feeling on it :). I contacted Dupli-color, Krylon, and Plasti-Kote with this question:

"Is there an advantage to putting a spray-painted object in the oven for heat-curing? Why or why not?"


Krylon:
" Hi Mark,

Thank you for your inquiry with the Krylon website. We appreciate you taking the time to contact us.

Not unless it's a product specifically intended for heat curing. Most of the "normal" paints, however, are not made to withstand higher temperatures, and would most likely just blister and peel if you tried to heat cure them in that fashion."

Plasti-Kote:
"Depending on the product being baked, you can either help the cure time by baking or ruin it with the exposure of heat.  If you have a concern about a specific product, please reply with that information and we can evaluate it and send a more definite answer."

Dupli-Color:
Haven't heard from yet.
Pardon my poor English. I'm American.

chunks717

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2005, 01:58:45 PM »
i got the same thing.  actually, i bought a toaster oven, and tried on about 15 different projects, to "master" the art of paint-bake.  mostly i ended up with a ruined finish, (i realize heat and time are key) and even once i had it to a "science", it seemed like alot of extra attention to give to a truely simple process.  now i do this:
-sand/acetone, etc
Prime, wait 2min-Prime,5 min-Prime,3 min
-air dry for 45min-1 hour
Color,2min-color,6 min-color,4 min
-air dry 1-2 hours (touch dry) (or overnight)
label, (carefully)
clear,3min....you get the point....and WAIT 2 days to tool it!(you can do it)

i feel like the results are more predictable, i can do a number of boxes at once, and dont take very much longer to produce,......(and I save some electricity?!?)  no more bake for me.

Fret Wire

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2005, 02:13:24 PM »
Quote
Plasti-Kote:
"Depending on the product being baked, you can either help the cure time by baking or ruin it with the exposure of heat. If you have a concern about a specific product, please reply with that information and we can evaluate it and send a more definite answer."


I was just pointing this out in another thread.
http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=35517
 All baking does in the majority of paints we use is to speed up drying and curing time. No increased durability to speak of. That's why you don't need much heat over 125 deg. f.

Ruin it? Sure, just try baking a Hammerite finish, it comes out crinkle finish every time. If you can circulate 90 deg. air past a Hammerite finish, it won't crinkle and you'll take days off it's curing time.[/quote]
Fret Wire
(Keyser Soze)

dadude

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2005, 02:27:18 PM »
Quote from: Fret Wire
Plasti-Kote:
"Depending on the product being baked, you can either help the cure time by baking or ruin it with the exposure of heat. If you have a concern about a specific product, please reply with that information and we can evaluate it and send a more definite answer."


I was just pointing this out in another thread.
http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=35517
 All baking does in the majority of paints we use is to speed up drying and curing time. No increased durability to speak of. That's why you don't need much heat over 125 deg. f.

Ruin it? Sure, just try baking a Hammerite finish, it comes out crinkle finish every time. If you can circulate 90 deg. air past a Hammerite finish, it won't crinkle and you'll take days off it's curing time.[/quote][/quote]

I bake Hammerite. I run it at about 150 deg. for about an hour. No problems at all. I used to do it at 200 and never had a problem.  Could be that your not shaking the can? Those solvents they use for fast drying could do something like your describing.

I don't use primer with Hammerite. I found it chips easier with primer than without.

Fret Wire

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2005, 02:36:46 PM »
Quote from: dadude
I bake Hammerite. I run it at about 150 deg. for about an hour. No problems at all. I used to do it at 200 and never had a problem.  Could be that your not shaking the can? Those solvents they use for fast drying could do something like your describing.
I don't use primer with Hammerite. I found it chips easier with primer than without.

Shaking is a basic aerosol technique that I haven't failed to do since my early teens. :)  With self etching primer, I haven't found Hammerite to chip at all.

You're the first person I've heard of to bake Hammerite with success. What brand are you using? And how long are you letting it set up before you bake it? If you are waiting a long time, than you're basically just air curing it like I said, not really baking. I wait about 4 hours, circulate warm air past the box, and cut the total curing time down quite a bit.
Fret Wire
(Keyser Soze)

Mark Hammer

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2005, 03:31:02 PM »
Both engine and tractor paint are meant to withstand higher temperatures.  I've been pleased with the finish quality when I've used them.  No discoloration upon baking.  Nice and hard.

formerMember1

  • Guest
Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2005, 03:57:29 PM »
i know a guy who has painted for over 30 years.  He painted houses and automotive stuff.  He told me that unless the paint specifically says to bake or heat it, then it wont make it any durable then if it wasn't.
He also said that if you bake it at a lower temp than the paint can withstand, you will:
1. make a smoother finish, (less orange peel affect.)
2. cure it way quicker

i never painted a pedal yet.  Currently i am using some old fuzzface enclosures or old wah enclosures.  I built a RM in a Hammond 1590b box, but will probably leave it bare, since $30 to 40$ to paint one small pedal doesn't cut it for me.  But, in the future if i build a pedal with a bare enclosure i will probably paint both pedals then.

Thinking about it, i still might paint my RM, since i doubt i am not going to keep building pedals. :lol:

hope i helped ya, cuz everybody always helped/s me. :D

Bernardduur

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2005, 04:23:34 PM »
I am "baking" my pedals by means of a stove (open fire) and I must say it works fantastic. In the past I had some problems getting the paint to dry quickly, now I don;t use any laquer anymore.

The blistering does not appear when you do this on the right way. I had blisters and ruined paint jobs, but I learned that you have to use a low fire, small stovepoint and turn it reguarly. Don't let is stay too long.

My new pedas are SWEET. I even added some colorchanges by heating more or less.
Am learning something new every day here

SquareLight | MySpace account

gaussmarkov

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2005, 04:47:24 PM »
Quote from: formerMember1
... if you bake it at a lower temp than the paint can withstand, you will:
1. make a smoother finish, (less orange peel affect.)
2. cure it way quicker
formerMember1, thanks man.  i was wondering about the "orange peel affect."  i'm on my third coat of my first box and getting into that.  :? spraying a thicker layer seems to help too.  but now i will try popping the freshly painted box right into the oven. (i just picked one up from the downtown goodwill store for the proverbial $10.  what's with that?  are these stores price fixing? :lol: )
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 07:38:34 PM by aron »
gaussmarkov.net:  layouts & eagle

formerMember1

  • Guest
Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2005, 04:59:32 PM »
I am NOT an expert on painting boxes, but when i was asking around for help a few weeks/months back i did learn that :

1.If the can says "not to be used where temperature exceeds 200F"  then go way less than that.  I would say 170F max.

2. also keep an eye on your pedal every so often, I heard that as soon as you see the finish  "melt" or run smoother turn off the oven.  And let it cool.  Bake no longer than an estimated 30 mins...

3. Take the plate off the pedal, and put the pedal in so that where the plate used to be, touches the oven, and the back plate should obviously be upside down.   Like, don't put your pedal in with any painted sides touching the inside of oven or it will ruin the pedal's finish.(you prob. already knew this though)

4.Make sure you do a search on this forum and read about baking your pedal, So that you don't end up baking it too long or not long enough, and also the right temp.

Good Luck Man. :D

hope that helped.

dadude

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2005, 05:05:40 PM »
Fret Wire: "You're the first person I've heard of to bake Hammerite with success. What brand are you using? And how long are you letting it set up before you bake it? If you are waiting a long time, than you're basically just air curing it like I said, not really baking. I wait about 4 hours, circulate warm air past the box, and cut the total curing time down quite a bit."

I use Hammerite 'Rust Cap'. I put one light coat on (un-primed) and let it dry for about 15 minutes. Then three more liberal coats 15 minutes apart from each other. Right after the last coat I put them right in the oven.

I've found some colors to be better than others at this. If I use the gold hammered I've do the above and then after the box is cool I'll put a final coat and let it dry overnight. Not because it wrinkles, it gets these little pock holes here and there from the heat.

R.G.

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2005, 10:22:22 PM »
This is a DIY forum. There's probably not a perfect way, or one that works every time.

Do what works for you.

Experimentation is a wonderful thing. Consider - if you want a Master of Arts in painting effects boxes, that can be had in a few days by buying something under $100.00 of paints and primer and a few boxes. Then you do your experimentation for the thesis: you spray boxes, bake some, don't bake some, use higher and lower temperatures, and so on, recording the temperatures and such, then writing the whole mess up. You'll be universally acclaimed to be a Wizard of Painting (WoP) and can then disregard threads like this because you now know what works and doesn't work for paints you can actually get your hands on.

However: paints vary. That fellow who says that *his* paint doesn't work in your very best conditions may really be telling the truth.

It's wonderfully freeing to buy some batch of materials and use them up in experments in return for the skill and knowledge you get, not expecting any of the experiments to have to be a finished product. As one of my favorite books put it, the finished product is just the garbage of the work. YOU are the best result of the work. When you do something you (at least for average to good values of "you") are made better.
R.G.

Quick IQ Test: If anyone in a governmental position suspected that YOU had top-secret information on YOUR computer, how many minutes would you remain outside a jail cell?

sir_modulus

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2005, 11:14:00 PM »
Quote from: formerMember1

i never painted a pedal yet.  Currently i am using some old fuzzface enclosures or old wah enclosures.  I built a RM in a Hammond 1590b box, but will probably leave it bare, since $30 to 40$ to paint one small pedal doesn't cut it for me.  But, in the future if i build a pedal with a bare enclosure i will probably paint both pedals then.


$30- $40?  :shock:  US?!?

For me...If I want to paint about 3-4 boxes, I but some rust-oluem brand paint (exact type depends on look I'm going for). For a first time with a color box, it's $6.95 Canadian for a new bottle or it, and then It's just $5 for a can of clear coat from em. If you also need primer (I just bought a $34 litre of tremclad self etching primer, and just spray it on), that's an added $5-$6.

I've only done one pedal with real paint, and that's 'cause the customer had a fuzzface up his butt, and wanted it in nitro, and that pedal was $34 canadian to do a full nitro finish on it...and I had paint left over...

I've always been a bit confused when people quote some rather odd prices for painting...

Cheers,

Nish

Fret Wire

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2005, 12:06:35 AM »
I use Duplicolor metal etching primer from Advanced Auto (under $6), enamel and Hammerite from Lowes ($2.99-5.99), and indulge myself with an ester-based, clear epoxy aerosol from Brownell's ($10.50). Not expensive at all.
Fret Wire
(Keyser Soze)

MartyMart

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2005, 04:36:26 AM »
Here's how it has worked/not worked for me :

"Plastikote Metallic" spray paint :
Looks cool, can be sprayed direct onto aluminium, can't be "overheated"
or it gets ruined, but 20 mins at around 150 deg cures it.
It chips/scratches very easily

"Plastikote fast dry enamel" spray paint :
Needs to go over a metal primer, can be baked for 30-40 mins at 200 deg, looks good and so far doesn't "chip" easily

"Hammerite smooth" spray paint ( Rustoleum in the US )
Spayed on top of metal primer, works very well and will bake fine to
cure but only til it "runs smooth" and at 150 deg, any more and it will
wrinkle, as one or two of mine have.

Clear coat that I have tried :

"PlastiKote clear sealer"   .... NEVER dries ! the coat on my Dyna comp
from four/five months ago is still "tacky" and will take a thumb print !!

"Colourful Arts clear laquer"  dries in 20 minutes and will cure in the oven
without "tarnishing" - my favourite to this point.

*** ALL MY PAINTED BOXES WILL CHIP/SCRATCH****

Much easier than "commercial" boxes, so whats the "secret" .. ???

Hope this was useful info,

Marty.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm"
My Website www.martinlister.com

R.G.

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2005, 09:36:39 AM »
Quote
*** ALL MY PAINTED BOXES WILL CHIP/SCRATCH****
Much easier than "commercial" boxes, so whats the "secret" .. ???

In general, the mixture of various gooks in a spray paint can at a hardware store is optimized for easy-to-spray and quick-to-dry qualities so that amateurs can get an OK job of the paint covering the surface. Paint durability is a distinct secondary consideration.

For durability (and as I mention in the Guitar Effects FAQ at GEO):
Quote
My preference is to paint it with a good primer, bake it in my oven at 200 degrees for an hour, cool, and paint with an auto touch up paint, then bake again. When this is cool, the paint should be reasonably durable.

Auto paint in general is optimized for durability, not easy-to-use-ness. Touchup sprays for cars still have to be reasonably durable, but easier to spray. Need I mention that there was a whole trail of empty hardware-store spray can corpses leading me to that conclusion?

If you want durable paint do one of two things:
1. Get a cheap airbrush setup at Harbor Freight ( about $10 for the brush and $50 for the small compressor) and learn to paint with real, no-fooling car paints from the auto-paint supply store, not spray cans from Home Depot.
--or--
2. (a) find the company in your town that does powder coating. It's not that expensive if you will accept/wait for a color that they're running anyway on the line. The per-piece powder coating price is small, but setting up the line for a different color is expensive
2. (b) buy a powder coating gun from someplace like Eastwood's (car repair/customization stuff) for about $100.

It' cheaper to simply repaint every now and then, but powder coating or semi-pro method auto painting produces the most durable paint surfaces that anyone has thought up. Marks' comment about tractor and construction equipment paints is a good lead too - they're going to be durable, although not necessarily easy to use.
R.G.

Quick IQ Test: If anyone in a governmental position suspected that YOU had top-secret information on YOUR computer, how many minutes would you remain outside a jail cell?

C Bradley

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2005, 09:58:15 AM »
My enclosures are PVC, so I didn't think standard spray paint would stick very well. I bought Plastic Enamel by American Tradition (Valspar) and it turned out good. I sprayed the box and let it sit out in the July sun here in South Carolina for about 3 hours (it's been in the high 90's this week) and the finish was a little tacky at first, but it's hardened nicely over the past few days.

I now have a glossy, emerald green NPN silicon Fuzz Face. 8) 8)
Chris B

Got Fuzz?

formerMember1

  • Guest
Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2005, 10:34:20 AM »
sir modulus:when saying 35-40$ is not a right amount for painting a pedal:

you may be right for you, but it is different for me. Saying that i will buy a 6$ can of primer, then a 6 $ can of paint, then a 6 $ can of clear.  Then 5-10$ for a toaster oven.  Plus the time of going to Lowes and auto motive stores and GAS!! Not to mention the time and care it would involve to just paint one pedal the size of an mxr pedal.  Also if i am going to go through all that work to paint it i might as well add decals and such, which would further the amount of time it takes to paint it.  My time is way more valuable.  i would rather get in some time on the guitar then painting my one pedal.  Thanks for your interest though.  :wink:

on the other hand, if i build any pedals in a bare box again i will probably paint them.  But i am trying to use old enclosures form stores and such.  Makes it way easier for me.  Plus what could be worse then watching the paint on a pedal dry.  When you really want to just plug it in and fire it up!! :lol:

(my post in no way is meant to sound rude to ya, I learned a lot off you in other threads) :D   thanks

Mark Hammer

Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2005, 10:52:58 AM »
Quote from: R.G.
Marks' comment about tractor and construction equipment paints is a good lead too - they're going to be durable, although not necessarily easy to use.


Actually, I recommended them because I have found them remarkably easy to use.  What they don't have is a broad choice of colours - after all, how many colours does YOUR John Deer come in?  But, colour choices aside, I'm really impressed by how quickly and how hard they dry.  I bake them around 170F.  Two quick thin coats is sufficient.  Not that much pricier than other paints, and certainly cheaper than auto-touch-up paint on a per volume basis.  My hat gets tipped to local diy-er Tim Larwill (maker of Retro-Sonic pedals) for the initial recommendation.

One thing that hasn't been discussed here, with respect to the virtues of baking paint, is the fracturing of paint by washers and nuts.  I freely confess to being the sort of guy who can hardly wait to get the circuit in the box.  If it *feels* dry, I'm in there ASAP.  Of course, the moment I need to make a mod/change, and I have to remove the pots and jacks AND their washers, I (too often) have paint fracturing when I lift the washers.  Whether you believe in baking as a means to make paint more scratch or dent-resistant or not, there is little denying the advantages of having the paint and any clear laquer above that be absolutely cured and dry.  If there is the least risk of the washers "sticking" to the paint, there will be a risk of paint fracture.  I have had to repaint a number of boxes simply because my impatience resulted in fractures.  Let me tell you, it isn't nearly as much fun scraping paint off for a repaint as it was painting the first time.

formerMember1

  • Guest
Baking painted boxes for durability = myth
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2005, 10:59:25 AM »
yeah mark hammer that is totally true.  when i painted my 69 strat, (olympic white of course)  The pickguard and jack plate messed with the paint. It doesn't matter though since no one could see it.  And it didn't mess witht the paint that much, just some indentation.