Difference between metal film and carbon comp resistors?

[formerMember1]

just wanna say, I placed my order for METAL film resistors and current production metal film caps, not "fish" caps. :wink:

See, i am beginning to listen to R.G. more often, i learned that you learn more :wink:  

I think carbon comps, given measurements and tests by R.G. probably make no difference in a pedal but noise.  And any tone differences you think you hear, you probably don't.  And why did i all of a sudden change my opinion on carbon comps?

Well, Many times i am so worried about keeping my vintage strat tremolo(non locking) in tune, that sometimes i think i am out of tune, and when i check it, i realize i am NOT out of tune.  So i probably think i hear a different tone,  and i don't.  But i do wanna say that if carbon comp resistors do have affect on tone, it is probably not enough to notice, so it is better to use metal film for more stability and less noise.


I still think carbon comps sound better in amps in some places, though.  :wink:

Now i just hope tomorrow i dont change my mind again, and think i hear something :lol:

thanks R.G.

[R.G.]

I still think carbon comps sound better in amps in some places, though.

They do - measurably! See my article at GEO on the mojo of carbon comp resistors for why and where.

[formerMember1]

yeah ,after i read that, i changed my mind and made the last post, :wink:

thanks  

[formerMember1]

Sorry, but i went ahead and got some carbon comps, measured them for value, selected the ones that were closest to the mtal films i was replacin,(and they were VERY close, if not almost exact), and the Carbon comps win!!

I respect opinons, but the CC"s added a warmth, that i couldn't get any other way in my wah,

and SLOs have metal film...  :shock: resistors.

NOw, the metal films didn't sound "bad", actually they sounded more bright, but were cleaner, the CC's sound more vintagey/warm, in the wah,... none if any more noise was apparent in the wah when adding CC's,...

Actually i am surprised at how much a difference there was in tone with CC's, i wasn't expecting  a difference afterall i read about them, but the difference was very audible.

ALSO, i recorded before and after, without moving the recorder/changing strings etc,...everything the same,

just my 2 cents,...

PS:i am not saying CC's will go in every pedal, but only where added warmth is needed 
Swapping other parts didn't give me any of the results that the CC's did,...and i have swapped/tried everything,...

[R.G.]

If you hear a difference, you hear a difference. Use what sounds good to you.

[dpresley58]

There is a large body of evidence in the areas of hearing, ...that the human mind will hear what it expects to hear if it has any expectations of the sound at all. Psychological testing confirms that it is incredibly easy for a human mind to delude itself about hearing and other things.

You -must- be married. I find the same phenomenon happening in -my- house repeatedly.

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

hmmmm every time i have used CCs (twice) i haven't noticed a thing. i really regretted using them, because i feared an increase in hiss. While the hiss might have changed (i'm not going to say it did for sure), the tone stayed precisely the same. I don't know. there's something about metal film resistors i like, though. maybe it's because they're blue...

[formerMember1]

hmmmm every time i have used CCs (twice) i haven't noticed a thing. i really regretted using them, because i feared an increase in hiss. While the hiss might have changed (i'm not going to say it did for sure), the tone stayed precisely the same. I don't know. there's something about metal film resistors i like, though. maybe it's because they're blue...

WHat pedal did you try them in? 

I notice a difference in my wah, if i keep all metal films, and only replace one metal film for a carbon comp as a 470ohm bass resistor, and they were the same value, cuz i measured them until i got one that was right on.  (they actually measured 468ohms)

THen when i did that, i replaced all of them, and an even bigger change was audible,...

metal films sounded ok in the wah too though, they just had more "bite", BUt "bite" isn't a bad thing at all.  TO me the carbon comps sound more vintage, like playing an old super lead, then playing a modern marshall.  Modern Marshalls sound good for that tone, but vintage marshalls sound good for this tone.  Just preference of what is better vintage vs modern, ask many people and you will get many answers i guess,...

I know someone who said they heard a difference when swapping all resistors for metal film, then carbon film, then carbon comp,..
and i don't doubt them, since i tried the CC's and heard a difference,...

PS:and if you didn't hear a difference, you should at least of heard a difference do too tolerance if you didn't measure them,...that is a HUGE thing too!!

[no one ever]

clips should dispel any rumors. cough.

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

i seriously doubt that a %10 tolerance would make a very big difference in your average circuit. audio circuits aren't exactly precision, you know... and my pedals were the Great Cheddar, and the BSIABII. both had very little to no audio changes with CCs.

[vanhansen]

Like RG has said many times before, in low voltage circuits, the difference is barely if at all audible.  The change is quite obvious in high voltage stuff like tube amps.  You may hear a difference because you want your ears to hear it.  Doesn't mean it's actually there.  Old Jedi mind trick.

[formerMember1]

i seriously doubt that a %10 tolerance would make a very big difference in your average circuit.

THat is what i thought, until i tried it,....PLUS, then why is it that two pedals don't sound alike!!  ARe you telling me that every multiple of a pedal you build sounds the same as the one before?  Even if the electros or whatever were 20%, you could still measure them until you get a more "correct" value,...

If you have a 5% tolerance resistors, say 470ohm,...they measure as much as 468, down to 457ohms,(or close to that), and you put thta 468ohmsin the bass spot for wah, and sounds right, then put a 457ohms in there and way more bass/gain in the wah,..

OK,  another example

I took a bunch of 5% tolerance .01uF polystyrene caps,...some measured .010uF, some measured .012uF or .011uF, OR .014uF,...
THe .014uF sounds WAY different than a .010uf, and that was a big difference in sweep of wah,...just adding a .001uF cap in parallel to the .010uF, yielded a big differernce,...So to me 1% are good for certain parts, and 5% are good for another, because you could get "off" values that you can't get with 1%,....

You may hear a difference because you want your ears to hear it.

Actually, I wasn't expecting a difference, after all i have read on forum(which i respect), plus, i was hoping there wasn't a difference, becuaes the carbon comps are more expensive than the metal films, so i was hoping that i didn't have to waste more money on parts,....

BUT, the difference was there, and still is, I recorded it with a cheapo tape cassette, and anyone can/could hear a warmth with the CC's. 

I am not spreading mojo at all either, so i could see how many disagree, and since i think this has been discussed many times before, i don't want to keep replying and having this thread popping up, when others are trying to get help with their pedal etc,...

At least i stated my opinion to the forum,...BUt, sometimes it makes me wonder how could some of these guitar players are, becuase if they can't hear  a big difference like that, how could they even know their guitar is in tune?

NOt, directed to anyone inparticular, don't take me as being hostile or whatever, i am completely calm, just stating my opinion,..

and you are right to yours 

[vanhansen]

All very valid, formerMember1.  If I listen closely I could probably tell the difference between two closely values caps or resistors of the same type but not enough to make it drastic.  But you're right in the sense that in some places they make a bigger difference than others.  And that's the fun part, finding out what makes a difference where and why.  I'm still trying to figure all that out but for now my ears lead the way.

It's like V1 in a tube amp.  That first pre-amp tube affects the tone more than the second or third pre-amp tube so naturally you'd want to try different brands of 12AX7's or ECC83's there first to see/hear the affect they have on the tone.

[formerMember1]

It's like V1 in a tube amp.  That first pre-amp tube affects the tone more than the second or third pre-amp tube so naturally you'd want to try different brands of 12AX7's or ECC83's there first to see/hear the affect they have on the tone.

I do that too.  I would be so crazy with a tube amp, i  fuss so much about pedals, i bet it would take me a whole year to get my amp tweaked the way i want, if i built one.  (i do plan on it though)


To me, drastic or a huge difference is when someone could hear the difference without listening back to a recording,...If i have to say yeah i think i hear a difference, but not much,..then listen to the recording, and then say, WOW, yeah there is a difference,..that is when i say it is subtle, becuase i had to listen repeatingly to hear it, not just one listen and go, Jeez, that definitely sounds better! THAt would be drastic, or huge or big difference,.. 

For some reason when i say i like carbon comps, people take it as meaning metal films suck, i don't mean that, that is like saying a ceramic cap sucks cuz i use metal film,..it depends on the pedal,  location, and amp/guitar, and ears i think,....oh yeah, and preference, almost forgot 

[Skreddy]

There are obviously applications where you'd want a more modern, biting, hi-fidelity tone.  You'd probably want to use metal film resistors and WIMA caps.  Then there are applications (like the Big Muff, for example) that generate a shit-storm of high-frequency hash that you're gonna want to round off, soften, smooth, mellow.  I find carbon comps and vintage-style, less-hi-fi caps best in this application (and metal film resistors not only inappropriate but painful to my ears).

And remember: RG demonstrates a verifiable difference in high-voltage-swing applications.  He did not (and can not) prove that you can't hear the difference in low-voltage situations.  You don't prove that something is NOT there simply by showing that your test doesn't detect it.  His test proves that high voltage swings are necessary for his test equipment to detect that something is going on.  I doubt if his test took the form of a Big Muff Pi circuit; but if it did, he wouldn't need the scope.  He'd need earplugs for the metal-film portion of the test!   

[formerMember1]

that explains why i didn't like the WIMA caps in my wah, and i tried like every variety,....

[jpm83]

How bad is the noise in carbon resistors for example in overdrive pedal? I'm asking because they are like half of the price of metal films, and is there difference between carbon comp and carbon film.

[Skreddy]

Consider that a transistor's self noise, in a high-gain configuration, is several orders of magnitude higher than any transistor resistor's thermal noise.  Consider that metal films are generally regarded (by those who hear a difference) as sounding harsher, since they seem to pass high frequencies better than carbon.  Consider that, of the people who hear a difference, carbon comps are generally regarded as sounding smoothest...

[Skreddy]

oops; duplicate

[jpm83]

Thanks I saw this kind of serie on one web store are these good for effects building? The site is in finnish but that is vellemans kit. http://www.newbonus.net/tuote.php?id=184 Here is info about that pagage in english. http://www.velleman.be/ot/en/product/view/?id=350890