Vox Clyde McCoy Wah, build report,... Any ideas for Hendrix wah tone?

[Paul Marossy]

Anyway, I like the yellow fasel.  I haven't tried them all, but the yellow fasel sounds very authentic to me.

Yes! Another individual that likes the yellow Fasel! 

[Pedal love]

When I went to build my clyde, I saw a lot of inside pics of vintage ones. One thing I noticed is that half of the resistors (470k.470k,22k,10k,1k) were 1/2 watt carbon film, the others (68k,1.5K,100k/33K,100k, 470r) were 1/4 watt carbon film   This was repeated in almost every late 60's clyde board shot I saw. I don't really think it should make a difference, but I have been wrong before.pl

[cmat]

I like the yellow fasel.  I want to try the arielfx inductor.  Has anyone tried this?  How does it compare to the fasel?

[formerMember1]

I like the yellow fasel.  I want to try the arielfx inductor.  Has anyone tried this?  How does it compare to the fasel?

even though my wah doesn't sound that great, i tried the red fasel and halo from ariel fx, i like the ariel fx better for more of a vintage Clyde mccoy tone.  THe red fasel was too muddy, and sloppy, too bassy.  I never tried the yellow fasel though, and it seems everyone likes them.

When I went to build my clyde, I saw a lot of inside pics of vintage ones. One thing I noticed is that half of the resistors (470k.470k,22k,10k,1k) were 1/2 watt carbon film, the others (68k,1.5K,100k/33K,100k, 470r) were 1/4 watt carbon film   This was repeated in almost every late 60's clyde board shot I saw. I don't really think it should make a difference, but I have been wrong before.pl

Yeah, i thought the original ones had carbon composistion resistors?  right?  It seems some boutique wahs use carbon comp, so i think i should just get some and put them in their for the sake of authenticity, along with tropical fish caps, even though i have boxed metal film,  I am willing to try anything!!!





oh well,....

Great thread!  It made me go back to my Vox wah I had been messing with.  Anyway, I like the yellow fasel.  I haven't tried them all, but the yellow fasel sounds very authentic to me.  I already had a trim pot on the emitter of Q1, but I recently added a trim pot to the emitter of Q2.  I'm using NTE123's.  I found it extremely useful to be able to dial in the sound I was looking for with the trim pots.  My goal was to get a wah sound that had a good funk sound with the volume knob rolled off on the guitar but could go into a thicker Hendrix type tone as the volume knob is increased. I've got most of the proper parts, polystyrene and tropical fish caps, true bypass, and a combination of carbon comp and carbon film resistors.

Jackie Treehorn:
Did you get the tone of Jimi Hendrix with the wah?
Are you saying you trimpotted the 470R and 10k resistors?  I only ever swapped the 1k5 470ohm and 33k(Q) resistors, maybe i really should remove everything and socket them, and swap different things!! 

[cmat]

Whe you try the resistor changes let us know.  I am very curious to know about the diffrence in the resistors if any.  I am also curious if the just changing caps without changing value makes any noticible diffrence in tone.

[Jackie Treehorn]

Jackie Treehorn:
Did you get the tone of Jimi Hendrix with the wah?
Are you saying you trimpotted the 470R and 10k resistors?  I only ever swapped the 1k5 470ohm and 33k(Q) resistors, maybe i really should remove everything and socket them, and swap different things!! 

I did put trim pots in place of the 470 and 10k ohm resistors.  I think it's perhaps more like the Jimi tone.  There seems to be a sweet spot between absolutely clean like the musicians friend sound sample you posted and more distorted, SRV type of thing.  The Jimi sound, to me, is a little darker and has a certain resonance, more so than "distortion."  Maybe in Jimi's case it's a combination of wah and fuzz, I don't know.  I was trying to get that bit of resonance by trimming the bias.  It also made the wah a tad darker. Adjusting Q2, I don't know whether I was decreasing gain or increasing headroom or both, but it also seemed to help the sweep a bit.  At some Q2 settings, it seemed to accentuate the switch from bass to treble, and turning the trimmer the opposite way would smooth the transition out a bit.  To be honest, I didn't keep track of which way I was going on the trim pot; I didn't want to influence my listening.  I set it to 10k and tried a rotation both ways and sort of dialed it in.  Anyway, I think you could definitely get closer to the sound you're looking for.

[lacto]

Hi, this is my first post on this forum. I have been watching this thread and any dealing with wah modifications, since that is what I have been obsessed with for the past two months or so (when time allows). I was going to wait until I was done to report but decided to jump in now. My electronics ventures have been limited to guitars, until a few months ago when my original gray box DOD 250 stopped working. With the help of these forums I was able to repair it, and for that I am grateful. Through that process I became aware of the
possiblity of modding wahs and all the information that is available on the web is amazing. I am not  happy with my GCB-95 Crybaby wah, so I started down this path... I learned that you can't solder and unsolder a circuit board too many times, so I had to learn how to repair damaged copper pads, then finally decided to socket the whole board. So far I have spent over $100 dollars on parts and
shipping charges, some of which I could have saved if I knew what I needed from the beginning.

My wah is an 80's Crybaby with the stack of dimes, style 48 inductor, which is considered pretty good, and the transistors read 5117,
which are also considered pretty good, but it doesn't sound like Jimi which is what I am after. I got the ArielFX halo inductor now, which
I think has the wildest most distinct wah, which can be tamed if you like. The fasels were not as good as my original inductor, the yellow is more vintage but tamer than I want. I trimpotted the 470 bass/gain resistor, the 1K5 midrange resistor, the 68K volume boost resistor and the 33K resistor parallel to the inductor as suggested. In all my reading I have never heard of doing anything with the 10K resistor??? Some people have suggested that the changes with these resistors are subtle, but I have found them to very noticeable. And speaking of resistors, I started with carbon film resistors, tried metal film resistors and now have carbon comp resistors. I read the stuff about resistors and wasn't expecting any noticeable changes but I found the metal film resistors to be noticeably thin and brittle bright, which surprised me, maybe they are too efficient? I perceive the carbon comp resistors to be warmer and more vintage if you will, I know that is supposed to be bull but that is what I hear. I am not done with tweaking, tell you why in a minute, but
I do find that lowering the bass gain resistor to about 330, like suggested gets close to what I want along with lowering the 68K resistor to balance the true bypass switch, the 1K5 midrange is very touchy, since too much smooths out the transition between bass and treble and diminishes the wah effect so maybe subtle changes here, not sure about the 33K sweep resistor but changes make a huge difference and I am definitely raising it close to the 100K mark.

About capacitors, I paid a lot for the .22 tropical fish caps, which are supposed to be magical and I don't notice much difference over polyester film caps, but the .01 sweep cap makes a huge difference, some suggest trying .02 but that is way too much. I have on order several polystyrene caps in values of .001. .0022. .0027 etc, to try these subtle changes as suggested by one website.

Also, I am trying different transistors, not sure that the bc109b is as good as my originals along with some others. I will report when I am done with all the tweaking, but I am definitely getting very close to Voodoo Chile.

Sorry for the length of this, I wish the best of luck to those who are in this process, and I want to thank you all for so much help and information. This whole thing is very frustrating (and expensive), but it is also fascinating!

[formerMember1]

great post man!!  I too am gonna try the carbon comp, did you get them from Mouser?
Many say that there isn't a difference in those resistor types in a pedal, so maybe what you are hearing is the tolerance difference in the resistors, making the values a little more off, and when they all add up, you have a different sound. Just a guess. 

So far for me i have narrowed it down that i like the propot and halo(ariel fx) the best out of other pots,inductors, etc..  I have been fooling with the 470ohm resistor and the 1k5 resistor, just like you said, the 1k5 is touchy, i a still not sure about the q resistor, i seem to like it at 100k, but sometimes i don't, depends how my other controls are set.

I am gonna try different transistors to start with, then continue modding, then when i think i have the right values, i am gonna order some carbon comp resistors to try, even though i will be made fun of. 

thanks for chiming in!!

what pot are you using?  Did you try any other transistors?  I was gonna get some 5117's or some BC237's, i thought the original clydes had BC109B's, or not?

yeah, i hear from many that the tropical fish caps aren't any different than current production types.

[lacto]

Sorry, forgot to add that I did try the AVX boxed film caps too, as suggested and I didn't like them in a wah circuit. I noticed a dry sterile tone imparted by them, at least to my ear anyway. That is all from me for now, really.

[lacto]

Thanks formerMember1. I also forgot to mention that my original wah had a Hotpotz I pot in it and I got the Fulltone pot to replace it, don't think I'll try the Propot since I am happy with this one. As far as transistors go, my understanding is that the Clyde used the bc109b too, but
the Vox Italian V846 used a 2N5172, which I think I like better, not sure if you can still get the 5117's. I try to do as much business as I can with Small Bear, but I end up doing most of it with Mouser. The shipping isn't that bad if you can figure out all you need in one shot, unfortunately I couldn't. The saga will continue...

[formerMember1]

cool thanks,,...

I like the ProPot alot better than the fulltone, but it depends on the wah pedal, and what pedal the pot is in,...

i am gonna look for the bc109b's and bc109c's, and try to get a gain just under 400hfe.  I'll probably try banzai effects.


edit**
and i will try to find the 5117's or 2N5172

[lacto]

Hey formerMember1. I don't think you can get the bc109b transistors from US suppliers, I think you have to go oversesas, like Banzai (like you said) or others. I got mine from Stewart Casteldine, his shipping isn't any more than Mouser's but the service can be on the slow side. I checked, and in keeping true to always getting extra components (learned the hard way), I have (2) extra BC109b's that haven't been touched. If you want I could send them to you, and trust that you will reimburse me $3.00 to cover the cost plus postage. If you are interested, let me know by email. I think that the bc109c's are high gain and not recommended for wah pedals, but I could be wrong about that.

[formerMember1]

i have been researching the wah more, and does anyone know if there is a difference in a Halo and a TDK 5103?  I heard the Halo is clearer, and the TDK is more vomity..., and vomity is what i want, so does anyone know where i could get one if this is true?  I heard fulltone used to sell his version of both? 

I heard hendrix liked the halo wahs, but later switched over to a King Wah that had a TDK inductor from japan, and that is when his sound started to change to vomity tone.  Don't know though,...




thanks 

EDIT**

I am confused on something, that may sound stupid,...Are the Sixties ITALIAN made V-846(not american) and the Clyde Mcoy wah the same thing? Or two different pedals?

[Pedal love]

The obvious difference is that the v-846 wah, used italian capacitors like the polydip Arco and Procond types. The Clyde McCoy wah, normally used Mullard tropical fish capacitors.pl

[Dai H.]

me too on wanting the "vomity" sound. On the fulltone inductor, AFAIK they have only sold one. Organ service someplace on the 'net used to sell (not sure if they still have them) later period old stock TDK (not the rectangular ones) inductors IIRC. Again, IIRC both this organ service place and G.Teese were competing to buy some of the remaining Thomas Organ NOS stock, but the organ place won apparently (which is how they ended up w/the parts). Tried taking off the power filtering on my guinea pig wah (1k, 220uF) and the sound changed, so I guess the supply voltage (and power supply impedance?) is another factor in the sound. Still the same impression w/lower gain giving better wah effect.

[formerMember1]

yeah i heard froma reliable source that wahs sound very differently with differnt voltage.  Someone said to try running it at 18volts!! 

I am not really after such a vomity vomity vomity tone, but a tone that is like Jimi's vomity tone.  Some wahs out there are really vomity.  Talking about this makes me sick. 

[Stratomaster]

Hello,
   Can you post some samples of what your wah sounds like?  I'm kind of curious how "bad" a wah with such high-profile parts can sound.  I did some massive modding on my Vox over the past year or so.  I got a sound that I really like.  I made a small-kinda bad- recording of it just before I really perfected it.  I'll put up a link here so that you can tell me if it's near what your looking for.  If so, I may be able to help you out. 

http://web.mit.edu/omj/www/wah%20clean1.mp3

Take care.
-OMJ

[Dai H.]

fwiw, I just tried the dunlop red fasel (13.4 ohms DCR fwiw although I'm sure the henries matter more) in place of the roger mayer kit stock inductor, and subjectively the RF is fatter sounding more resonant sort of on the low strings. Gives me the sense I could adjust the wah pot a click higher (in the "more trebly" direction when down all the way) and it would still sound good. I think this is going to stay, unless there is something better.

[Dai H.]

moved the pot a knotch higher...sounds good, sounds right

p.s. was looking at some of the supposed fulltone deluxe info, and if the (person who saw it)'s guess is correct for the freq. caps (norm., shaft, wacked), I suppose it's something like: 5nF, 10nF, 20nF w/one end of each cap connected going to one side of where the 10nF is, ea. end of the caps goes to a separate sw.pole,  a wire connects switch common to to pole w/the 10nF (always in circuit), connect a large value R(5Megs?) from 10nF sw. pole to the 5nF pole, again from 10nF to 20nF pole for pop suppression, switch common goes to other end of the original 10nF. I think that works. Rotary or 3 pos. toggle w/6 contacts (DP3T??). Of course doesn't have to be the same values. Oh and I noticed that with that wiring, even if switch contacts go intermittent or don't conduct, you still have your main "Xnf" connection hard wired so you won't lose signal. You can only add but I supose you could just use a low value for your hardwired one.

[formerMember1]

stratomaster, that sounds good, but not the tone i am looking for, but that does sound clear and precise, yet watery and bassy at the same time!! cool!!

I have on order some tropical fish, WIMA caps, carbon comps, etc,.. hopefully it will improve,... still researching a real lot