Do you own a ToneCore?

[Doug_H]

Unfortunately I think Ton was a victim of the same thing with the Hoax...

Doug

[Peter Snowberg]

I've heard it said more than once that you can tell people 999 good things and 1 bad thing, and they'll center on the bad thing, forgetting the good that out numbers it by 1000:1. This is why the tabloid papers (and all major commercial media) are so negative-centric.

To head back towards positive; Thanks for the information everyone.

I talked to Jeorge at Line 6 and he said that the noise problems were supply related and only reported by those who tried to share supplies. ToneCore pedals must contain a 3.3V power supply for the DSP and that's going to be a switcher given the efficiency of such designs. I see opportunity for ground loop noise there, but not when each pedal gets it's own (isolated) supply. He mentioned people using carbon-zinc batteries too. Those have discharge curves that digital stuff does not appreciate.

[aron]

I compared my Memory Man to the Echo Park and was amazed at just how much noise my Memory was emitting. WOW!

Oh well.... it must mask my mistakes.

[SeanCostello]

Yes - Verbzilla.
No - taking Verbzilla back to store.

The Verbzilla eats up batteries too fast. It sounds good with my new pedal steel, but takes up more floor space than I would like (pedal steels don't leave much room for pedals). For simple playing into my amp, I will use my Boss RV-3, which doesn't sound as good, but takes less room and has a much longer battery life. For recording,  I can program better reverbs than the Verbzilla in either MAX/MSP or Supercollider. The Verbzilla algorithms are nice and dense, but they don't have the swirl I like - I prefer to add a bit of modulation in select places so that no discernable echo pattern can be heard, even with infinite repeat.

Sean Costello

[amz-fx]

I talked to Jeorge at Line 6 and he said that the noise problems were supply related and only reported by those who tried to share supplies.

I daisy-chained two Tonecores with two other cheap pedals on a single inexpensive switching power supply and could not duplicate the noise problems people were having with them...  I still have one of the original base units that has not been modified to add the extra power supply filtering and it gives me no problems. I do believe that someone with a big pedalboard could have some grounding issues though. 

Also, these things eat up batteries very fast!  Sometimes in just minutes! I can attribute some of the problems that were reported to low battery power, as  a player would put in a new battery and when the pedal started sounding funny 15 minutes later - he probably would not think about the battery.

regards, Jack

[Arno van der Heijden]

Yes (Echo Park)
Yes (Roto machine, Liqua flange)

[Doug_H]

They shouldn't even bother putting a battery compartment on a DSP pedal. Batteries are effectively useless with DSP. Everyone needs to learn that and get on the same page wrt the power requirements of these things. Don't buy a DSP pedal without planning on powering it externally.

Doug

[Mark Hammer]

They shouldn't even bother putting a battery compartment on a DSP pedal. Batteries are effectively useless with DSP. Everyone needs to learn that and get on the same page wrt the power requirements of these things. Don't buy a DSP pedal without planning on powering it externally.

Doug

Yes and no.  Not every music store is the sort of place where you can say "Can I try that out?" and the salesperson tears themselves away from talking gear, gigs, and gals with his buddy long enough to find you a suitable wallwart and available outlet behind the wall of amps.  In some respects, the inclusion of a battery life of any minimal sort is to permit the salesperson to say "Yeah", hand you the pedal, and you plug in with the two patch cords draped over the amp.  If you can try the pedal out, there is a good chance that you might buy it.

Keep in mind that the Tone core series uses essentially the same dock for a variety of pedals, even though the DSP circuitry may be asked to complete tasks of varying degrees of demandingness depending on the effect and mode.  The more work is required to accomplish the effect, the faster the battery drain.  You can stick a battery in the same dock, with the Tap Tremolo module plugged in (also stereo outs), and it will last much longer than a Verbzilla or Liqui-Flange module in the very same dock.  I haven't compared the various distortin modules with respect to battery life, but I imagine there is variation there too, with some of the modules delivering much longer battery life than others, despite the same hardware.

The battery, then, is a power option that works better in some instances, and worse in others, but since the pedals use the same dock for a range of modules, that option will seem useless in some instances.  Not sure what's worse, omitting a battery compartment when it could be useful for future modules in the line, or including it when you know some modules will eat batteries like popcorn.

[SeanCostello]

They shouldn't even bother putting a battery compartment on a DSP pedal. Batteries are effectively useless with DSP. Everyone needs to learn that and get on the same page wrt the power requirements of these things. Don't buy a DSP pedal without planning on powering it externally.

Tell that to my Boss RV-3! I run this thing for hours at a time on batteries. In fact, I can't remember when I last changed the battery. My Boss PH-3 doesn't run as long on batteries, but it can be plugged in for several hours on batteries. It is strange that the PH-3 uses more battery power, as the phaser algorithms should be simpler than the reverbs.

I think that the problem is selecting a DSP based on CPU power, while putting power consumption at a lower priority. The Motorola DSP has plenty of computing power, but is pretty clearly a battery hog. The Blackfin DSPs I work with supposedly have low power consumption modes, but I don't know if they would work with a 9 volt battery for that long - they seem to be targeted at things like MP3 players that use rechargable batteries.

I'm sure that Line 6 took all of the above into account when designing the Tone Core pedals. My guess is that they needed the extra cycles for some of their algorithms. Any of their pedals that have overdrive or distortion (the rotary simulator, as well as the tape simulator) will be using a lot of cycles for the oversampling.

Sean Costello

[tweaker]

I don't own one yet but I have been considering the Uber Metal for a while.

Brad

[A.S.P.]

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2588

[Mark Hammer]

A-HA!!!

I asked Jeorge and Angelo whether there were plans to do that a couple of times.  My questions were prompted by the ease of access to the modules, and also their sealed form.  In other words, there was so little risk to damaging the dock or module that I figured customer access HAD to be in the plans.  But they were silent on the matter.  I was holding out hope, but understood that there was still plenty of production cost-effectiveness for using the format and that it didn't HAVE to be targetting user replacement down the road, even though it could.  So I let it drop.

Late last year, those of us in the beta-test team received an inquiry about whether we were interested or perhaps knew of those interested in developing 3rd party modules.  (No, I'm not going to.  I know nothing about DSP programming)  The idea was that the docks provided a platform which could easily accommodate other people's ideas about interesting effects using the same DSP.  In a sense, the R&D or the dock system itself gets paid off by allowing others to exploit it under license.  Not only does it provide Line 6 with revenue, but it extends the lifespan of the dock/DSP system as a product line without them having to do much R&D themselves to renew it.  It's what they might call an "evergreen" product.  If the consumer could buy new and interesting effects without having to invest in new docks for every little effect, they would be more inclined to at least feel justified in buying a couple of docks, as opposed to being shy to commit to that system.

The proof, of course, will be in the eating of the pudding, and the range, inventiveness, and sonic quality of any 3rd party modules that might enter the market.  I'm gathering that they (Line 6) got enough of a nibble from their initial inquiry to justify making this move.  This also works for those who have the expertise to develop DSP-based effects, but lack the resources and time to develop the hardware system that must necessarily accompany it.  So, in a sense, everyone wins, Line 6, developers and startups, retailers, and consumers.  Early last year I old Jeorge that the modularity of the Tone Core line was probably the most brilliant aspect about it (the effects themselves aren't too shabby, either!).  I'm convinced now more than ever.  Incidentally, it would not surprise me a bit if prices eventually came down if these things took off.  Especially if the range of 3rd party modules was extensive enough that retailers had to do something to move stock.

And just so folks know, mono modules will work on stereo docks, so buy the stereo docks to be able to use stereo modules when you want.  It's the stereo on these things that really brings out their best.

[tommy.genes]

This is good marketing strategy, both for the company and the consumer. It's definitely more likely that I'd buy a few more modules than I would whole pedals. They get more sales, and I get more sounds!

I did receive my Liqua-Flange BTW, and am quite pleased with it. No noise at all yet, but I've only used it with a single supply so far, not on a pedal supply "chain". It's somewhat inspiring yet daunting how all of the controls act quite differently in the three models. I say "inspiring" because the possiblities are quite extensive, and I say "daunting" because I've already hit on a few cool sounds in my tweaking that I've been unable to get back to! I gotta start writing this stuff down...

-- T. G. --

[ShoeGazer]

Sweet...now I can get the Verbzilla module. I've already got the Echo Park and Tap Tremelo. They need to make a single base that will hold 3 or more modules.

Good job Line6!

[SeanCostello]

Yeah, I might get the Rotary emulator. I broke down and kept the Verbzilla. It does sound really nice with my pedal steel.

Sean Costello

[bwanasonic]

Sweet...now I can get the Verbzilla module. I've already got the Echo Park and Tap Tremelo. They need to make a single base that will hold 3 or more modules.

If it has a studly power supply, that would be great. I'm eyeing the Verbzilla as well as the Liqua-Flange to go with my EP.

Kerry M

[Peter Snowberg]

I talked with Jeorge briefly about a multi-core dock, but he said that they didn't have any motivation to produce one at that time.

I have an Echo Park which I like very much, but it's not for 9V batteries . To be fair, I'm sure not going to expect a general purpose DSP to be too light on power consumption. Special purpose chips can cut the transistor count and power consumption by fairly vast amounts. The tape emulation algorithms in the Echo Park seem to really chow the power down.

Thanks for all the replies everyone!

[MartyMart]

1)  Yes ( tap tremolo,Space Chorus,Crunchtone,Roto Machine )
2)  Yes ( Liqua Flange module - when and if available ! )

The only dissapointing one is the "Crunchtone" which I tried to sell twice on Ebay and had no bids !

MM.

[troubledtom]

no , i don't have one i have 2
            - tom

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

i wonder if they'll start selling dummy modules, for individuals to put what they want on them... that would be wonderful for the system, because that could lead to downloading effects from the internet, saving them on pedals, and trying new codes whenever they please... maybe a subscription based effects system?