Need help building Ibanez Tube screamer.

[Izzy]

Hi guys,
I want some help to start my seconn project Ibanez Ts808 or Ts9.
I have been doing lots of reading these days from this forum and printing stuff from here and Geofx. I have definately learned a lot after my first MXR distortion project.

Before I start my project I need to ask few things.


1>
I have these 3 schematics of TS 808 or TS9
But second and third schematics have big thing attached at the bottom of the circuit which is not included in first schematic. Why is that
I am trying to follow according to First circuit which I got from Tonepad.


First Schematic :
http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/6855/creamerwg0.jpg


Second Schematics:
http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/3417/ts808fq0.jpg

Third Schematics:
http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/5913/ibnztubescreamerce6.jpg



2>
What is this Vbin first schemtic?I it the 4.5 volt ?



3>
I dont understand why Tube screamer is using LINEAR pot for Volume? Isnt it supposed to be  Log for smooth volume control?
And since i always use drive, around 50-100% , can I use Reverse log?  So that it ill give me chance to fine tune the drive. Or is Log pot better option to use here?

4>What is the main diff between TS808 and TS9? As far As i can see there are only few changes like 2-3, Is that it? I thought there was huge different.
IF there's not huge differnce then why do peopl still go for ts 808?
Can some body explain??


I would really appreciate if someone would answer these question.
Hopefully Gibson GM again to the rescue.

[zyxwyvu]

The large part at the bottom of the second two schematics is the electronic switching. You don't need to include any of that - it can be replaced by a simple DPDT switch.

In the first schematic, Vb is 4.5 V. You can tell from the part in the upper right, where there is a voltage divider (2x 10k resistors), and a smoothing capacitor (47uF).

You are correct that there are only a couple differences between the TS9 and TS808. In the first schematic, the changes are to the resistors marked Ra and Rb (also in red). Take a look at http://beavisaudio.com/Projects/ScreamerLab/. There, the builder uses two switches to change it from TS9 to TS808. I don't think there is a big difference in tone, but I haven't tried it, so I could be wrong.

[fixr1984]

From what I understand the Ts-9 was made more for the
SS amp users and the TS-808 was more for the tube amp users.
Do you use strip board? If you do Here is a layout from
Torchy's gallery. I made mine from this layout and It works great.
Unless you are looking at taking the schematic and making your own
layout. If thats the case have you checked out Bancika's layout program yet?
It works great. Link The program can be found
by clicking on the box in his signature. Hope this helps.

[Izzy]

Super thanks to both of you. Awesome help.!

I was looking for stripboard but couldnt find in smallbearelectronics. neither in radio shack. So I think I will go with this
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103800&cp=&origkw=breadboard&kw=breadboard&parentPage=search


I am thinking of following first schematic. But I was not sure whether to go for TS9 or TS 808. So why does TS 808 has such a great value when the changes between these two are just minor? Is there a  BIG difference in tone? Or am I missing some thing here?
If there is a big difference in tone then I will probably use dpdt to switch between TS-9 and TS808.

And also my third question remains unanswered, can some one explain?

3>
I dont understand why Tube screamer is using LINEAR pot for Volume? Isnt it supposed to be Log for smooth volume control?
And since I always use drive, around 50%-100% , can I use Reverse log?  So that it will give me chance to fine tune the drive aaround 50-100%. Or is Log pot better option to use here

Waiting for help...

[fixr1984]

I'm not sure myself about the volume pot. The link I gave you
to Torchy's layout has a log pot for the volume.
Check out the "store" link on the top of the screen. Aron sells all sorts of stuff there
including strip board.  I found This It would appear that the
resistor change effects the output buffer changing the output impedence.

[petemoore]

why does TS 808 has such a great value when the changes between these two are just minor? Is there a  BIG difference in tone? Or am I missing some thing here?
  Try both, then spend a great value on a 'vintage mojo' TS, and find that the control pots allow enough variance to compensate for the small component tolerance differences...go with the sound you like..or spend big to find out for sure how important mojo isn't.
  Minor differences = Big Mojo [if you have it, and can sell it, without losing it].
  Either log or linear will provide a variable divider for the volume, you might like one taper better than the other because control will be bunched up at one end of the pot, the rest of the rotation won't do much. I just look for Log first when wiring a volume control.

[Izzy]

hey hanks pete more for your reply.

Basically thats what I was thinking.Log pot for Volume, since it will give smooth volume increment. And Reverse log pot for drive because I always use high drive setting so reverse log should allow me to fine tune higher drives more easily than log pot ? Am I right?

And One more thing I just bought 2 striop board from Aron's store. This will be my first time using  stripboard. So I wanted to know do I need to but strip board cutter? Or can I use some thing else for cutting strip board?

[Izzy]

1>
One more question

As per FAQ page it says:

In a nutshell, you should use electrolytic when the capacitor is polarized. You can also use tantalum capacitors instead of electrolytic, but these are not commonly used. For any others, the basic consensus is to use film caps if they fit, otherwise use a mixture of film and ceramic capacitors. For most of our circuits, use caps with a minimum 16 volt rating. R.G. posted a great explanation about the subjective world of capacitors. For distortion circuits, others have noted that cheap ceramics sound good too, so use your ears! In general, 1uF and up will be electrolytic, any smaller values up to .001uF can be film types and picofarad values like 10pf-470pf are usually ceramic types. This is usually due to size, cost and availability. With the exception of elecrolytic and tantalum capacitors, most capacitors such as film or ceramic are non-polarized (often labeled NP). The orientation of a non-polarized capacitor doesn't matter; there's no positive or negative.

I need 2 x 1uf (NP) caps for this project. But the faq page says :

Anything from 1uf and above should use Electrolytic caps.
Also where it is labeled NP caps it shouldnot be replaced with Electrolytic(Polarised) caps .

So what should I go for?Metal film caps?



2>
Another question.
In smallbear electronics. they have this thing :

Capacitors, Low Voltage Poly Film
Capacitors, Xicon High Voltage Poly Film
Capacitors, Mallory 150 Series Poly Film
Capacitors, Sprague 715 Series, Orange Drop
Capacitor, Sprague 716 Series, Orange Drop
Capacitors, Silver Mica

I am kinda confused , Am I supposed to choose high voltage or low voltage?
Isnt there any metal film caps in small bear?

Or I found this
http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=191
So can I use this where it is labeled 1uf (NP) in schematics?


3>
Looks like most of capacitor there in smallbear are POLY film. I am kinda scared to buy poly film , because I am new to soldering and I am afaraid I might damage the cap with heat?
What should I do?



Waiting for reply.....

[Izzy]

Gibson GM, Aron, Mike hammer or can anyone answer to my questions kindly?

[ubersam]

1>I need 2 x 1uf (NP) caps for this project. But the faq page says :

Anything from 1uf and above should use Electrolytic caps.
Also where it is labeled NP caps it shouldnot be replaced with Electrolytic(Polarised) caps .

So what should I go for?Metal film caps?

Poly/metal film caps would be bigger than their electrolytic counterparts. However, some would be small enough to use depending on the board's layout. On a BYOC TS clone pcb for instance, the spot for the 1uf cap is big enough for either a CDE (Cornell-Dubilier) 1uf film cap, or an AVX BN series boxed film cap (both have 15mm lead spacing).

2>
Another question.
In smallbear electronics. they have this thing :

Capacitors, Low Voltage Poly Film
Capacitors, Xicon High Voltage Poly Film
Capacitors, Mallory 150 Series Poly Film
Capacitors, Sprague 715 Series, Orange Drop
Capacitor, Sprague 716 Series, Orange Drop
Capacitors, Silver Mica

I am kinda confused , Am I supposed to choose high voltage or low voltage?
Isnt there any metal film caps in small bear?

You are supposed to choose the voltage that would accomodate the requirements of your project. In the case of the TS, that would be 9VDC. So, as long as the device can handle 9VDC, it should be O.K. If you can find the necessary cap in a 16VDC or 25VDC rating, use that. I personally could not find any film caps with a voltage rating lower than 100VDC . I have been using ones that are rated for 100VDC or 250VDC and theyworked fine in the TS.

The Sprague Orange Drops are going to be huge, well, significanly bigger than other metal/poly film caps.

The silver mica caps would be in the pf range. I used silver mica in the feedback loop of the TS (in parallel with the clipping diodes).

3>
Looks like most of capacitor there in smallbear are POLY film. I am kinda scared to buy poly film , because I am new to soldering and I am afaraid I might damage the cap with heat?
What should I do?

Just practice your soldering skills. If you are judicious with how long you are applying heat to a component's lead, a few seconds and not minutes, you wouldn't damage the poly film caps. (Polystyrene caps would be a different story) You could also use heatsink clips on the leads if you find it necessary.

[Izzy]

Thanks for you help. I appreaciate.

I am hoping someone would answer this question

1>
I need 2 x 1uf (NP) caps for this project. But the faq page says :

Anything from 1uf and above should use Electrolytic caps.
Also where it is labeled NP caps it shouldnot be replaced with Electrolytic(Polarised) caps .

So what should I go for?Metal film caps?


I found this
http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=191
So can I use this where it is labeled 1uf (NP) in schematics?

[petemoore]

I need 2 x 1uf (NP) caps for this project. But the faq page says :
Anything from 1uf and above should use Electrolytic caps.
  Larger than 1uf values of caps are available in the Electrolytic typs and Tantalum mostly [I didn't really look much at metals...] for where it calls for these values I use Electrocaps, other types tend to be LarGer and not fit, or are not available in the large values.
Also where it is labeled NP caps it shouldnot be replaced with Electrolytic(Polarised) caps .
  You can make a non-polarized [bi-polar actually], using two electrolytic polarized caps, connect the + of one to the - of the other, the + of the other to the plus of the one...
I am kinda confused , Am I supposed to choose high voltage or low voltage?
  ..try..to never exceed the rated value of a capacitor [labeled on the side of electro's], since you'll be running TS @ 9v, you want that as minimum cap rating +10%-20%...to be on the safe side. Use caps rated 16v or more.
So what should I go for?Metal film caps?..expensive.
  I don't like ceramics, I use poly's all the time.
Looks like most of capacitor there in smallbear are POLY film. I am kinda scared to buy poly film , because I am new to soldering and I am afaraid I might damage the cap with heat?
  Anything with a diode in it is first on the 'don't overheat list' [transistors diodes, opamps], I've exposed alot of caps to high heat, never had a failure as a result.
  I use sockets or heat sink each lead above board with a testclip when directly soldering in actives. Always use socket for opamps.

[Izzy]

Thanks petemore. So that mean Polycaps should be able to bear some heat while soldering.right? I though they would melt.

Ok but my electrolyic caps question still remains unanswred
Let me rephrase it.

Can I use this NP electrolytic caps where it is labeled 1uf (NP) in schematics?
http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=191

The reason I was confused was. I need 1uf caps at the same time it has to be NP. But accroding to FAQ page, If 1uf = use Electrolytic , If NP = dont use electrolytic.
My condidtion satisfies the both situation i.e 1uf NP. So I was like

[Izzy]

I am going to buy all the parts from Smallbear. But before I hit ORDER button I want to make sure, everything is right.

can anyone check?

0901 Resistor 1/4-Watt 5% Carbon Film, 120 Ohms to 1K
(1K) $0.15  $0.75
0904 Resistor 1/4-Watt 5% Carbon Film, 43K to 220K
(51K) $0.15  $0.30
0902 Resistor 1/4-Watt 5% Carbon Film, 1.1K to 6.2K
(4.7K) $0.15  $0.30
0905 Resistor 1/4-Watt 5% Carbon Film, 240K to 1Meg
(510K) $0.15  $0.45
0906 Resistor 1/4-Watt 5% Carbon Film, 1.1Meg to 22Meg
(2.2Meg) $0.15  $0.30
0903 Resistor 1/4-Watt 5% Carbon Film, 6.8K to 39K
(10K) $0.15  $0.75
0901 Resistor 1/4-Watt 5% Carbon Film, 120 Ohms to 1K
(220 ohms) $0.15  $0.30



2006 Transistor 2N3904
$0.25  $0.50 
0707 Socket, Transistor, Mill-Max TO-5
$0.60  $1.20



1507 IC JRC4558D
$0.45  $0.90
0703 Socket, IC, Dual-Leaf, AMP 8-pin
$0.45  $0.90



0600A Jack, 1/4 in. Mono Neutrik #NYS229
$1.15  $1.15
0602A Jack, 1/4 in. Stereo Neutrik #NYS230
$1.25  $1.25


2208 Diode 1N914
$0.15  $0.45


0807 Black Fluted Silver Center knob, Small
$0.65  $1.95

0204 Switch - Taiwan X-Wing DPDT
$3.75  $3.75


1407 Capacitor, Electrolytic, Radial 50 V Non-Polarized
(1 mf.) $0.30  $0.60
1409 Capacitor, Dipped Tantalum .22 mf. - 10 mf. 16 Volt
(.22 mf.) $0.40  $0.80
1404 Capacitor, Electrolytic, Radial 16 V 1 mf. - 100 mf.
(10 mf.) $0.20  $0.20
1404 Capacitor, Electrolytic, Radial 16 V 1 mf. - 100 mf.
(47 mf.) $0.20  $0.20
1300 Capacitor Silver Mica 500V 10 pf. - 150 pf.
(47 pf.) $0.55  $0.55
1102 Capacitor, Panasonic ECQ-B .056 mf. - .1 mf.
(.1 mf.) $0.30  $0.30
1101 Capacitor, Panasonic ECQ-B 470 pf. - .047 mf.
(.047 mf.) $0.25  $0.25
1101 Capacitor, Panasonic ECQ-B 470 pf. - .047 mf.
(.027 mf.) $0.25  $0.25


1001 Pot Alpha Single-Gang Audio Taper 24mm
(500K) $1.25  $1.25
1000 Pot Alpha Single-Gang Linear Taper 24mm
(25K) $1.25  $1.25
1000 Pot Alpha Single-Gang Linear Taper 24mm
(100K)

[zpyder]

Can I use this NP electrolytic caps where it is labeled 1uf (NP) in schematics?

The short answer to your question Izzy is yes.

Ceramics, polys, etc. are limited in that to make a capacitor with a large amount of capacitance would require a HUGE package.  Electrolytics are capable of delivering much higher capacitances in much smaller packages.  Generally speaking, it's very hard to find ceramic/poly/film/etc caps from 1uF up - and if you did, they'd be huge.  Hence the line in the faq that says use electros for anything over 1uF.  The majority of electrolytic caps are polarized.  There are, however, a specific type of Electros that are non-polarized - and they're called "non-polarized" (BIG surprise there...) or NP Electros.

I would recommend buying an NP Electrolytic cap for this.  That is what I used in mine.

cheers,
zpyder

[Izzy]

Thanks that answer my question. 

One question;
Why is TS 808 ($170) so expensive compared to TS9 ($100)? Even though the only difference between them are changes in 2 resistor value.

That keeps me thinking which one should I go for? 

[zpyder]

Why is TS 808 ($170) so expensive compared to TS9 ($100)?

Hype.  I'm not saying that the 808 is an OVERhyped pedal - that would be a judgement call - It's just that it's been hyped a LOT.  Supply & Demand + Hype = Big Price Tag.

Personally, I enjoy the flavor of the circuit, but my tastes are a bit odd/complicated/dependant on other things.  Right now it has a place on my pedalboard right after my Marshall Shredmaster.  The shredmaster is a very thick, crunchy distortion, and I use it for the heavy riffs.  I use the 808 basically like a treble boost/solo pedal, for when I want to stick out above the mix more, or just want a crispier, more trebly distorted tone.  With the Shredmaster on (I never use the TS808 alone, but that's just me), I can click on the 808 to get a higher overall tone out of my distortion chain.  The pedal itself has very little distortion and is probably 'best' used to drive a tube amp into tube distortion.

cheers!
zpyder

[fixr1984]

something else to consider when buying parts is to get more than what you
need.  Most of the things you are getting now can be used in other projects,
so rather than place another order in a few days/weeks you already would have a good amount of
the parts needed.

[Izzy]

I am kinda person who uses 70-90% of the distortion available everytime. So what would be the best way to increase the drive of This Tube screamer?
Increasing drive pot value? or decreasing 51k resistor?

[Izzy]

I just want to make sure that all the Vb are connected to the same point right? Which is 4.5 v given by the 2x 10k and .47uf caps right?

And what is that arrow inside that green box for? The one thats pointing Ca?(In the figure below)

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3295/creamerfk7.jpg