Creamy Dreamer clone on eBay.

[MikeH]

I guess I meant it would have been good "courtesy".

[A.S.P.]

dis dread cries for de LOUNGE

[Meanderthal]

 Does any merchant intentionally reveal their sources? Common sense.

Here's another point- what if you used the pics Jack has posted of the PCB, especially the one with the goop scraped off and the parts locations indicated... and you had an honest-to-gosh SustainPunch Creamy Dreamer of your very own. Using the pic, all you need to do is examine the OTHER side of the pcb and you've got yourself some reverse engineering. He wouldn't even need to scrape the goop. I don't think this is a far fetched scenario at all. The fact that Jack degooped one and posted pics does not prove him to be a liar or whatever other assumption you would prefer.

Why is it so hard to give a fellow pedal builder the benefit of the doubt? Do people PREFER to assume the worst? Why must you play the "devil's advocate" just to defend a stranger from malicious assumptions? There's a clear indication that the hostility is pervasive.  Here's another good question- What's the big problem with simply selling a DIY on ebay? Don't tell me it's not tabboo in and of itself- that would be... lying. Evidence? Read ANY thread about someone selling on ebay. This one has proven to me that it dosen't matter if you're on the level, it's the very act of selling, SPECIFICALLY on ebay that seems to invite hostility. If a problem can't be found, one will be assumed. WHY?

I also don't understand why this name calling and ridicule is considered acceptable.

Yeah, let's file 13 this thread. All too predictable.

[jonathan perez]

i sell my GGG wahs on ebay...anyone got a problem with that?

[wampcat1]

Seriously...do some people on here have something against a guy making money off of DIY? I remember when I started I use to get flamed all the time (remember the guy CD?  ).

I'd really like to know... if you work construction, do you advertise that you use georgia pacific studs? Do you advertise than you used Simpson fasteners? Quickset concrete? Estwing hammers?

If you are a cook at burger king, do you place a sign out displaying what brand of spatula you use?

Why not?

I don't get the double standard, just because it's DIY. The quest for morals and ethics can be pushed so far that it borders on obsessiveness.

bw

[wampcat1]

OH! also, make sure that you put in your signature exactly what type of computer and where you bought it at it...it's only fair.

[vanessa]

I've been thinking about this for a while now... It should be put to a vote.

The ethics of DIY. A constitution of sorts about the rights and wrongs of what you can do with DIY information and still be apart of this forum or considered apart of the DIY community for that matter. If the topic is brought up after a ruling has been made it will be referred to the DIY constitution and the thread will be closed or 86'd. If the consensus is not to have such a code then that will be the final verdict and will be referred to when a thread is closed.

All these "is it right or is it wrong" threads take away from what the forum is about and gets people hating another. DIY pedals should not be confused with politics and I strongly suggest a community ruling on the matter to finally put it to rest.

[wampcat1]

I've been thinking about this for a while now... It should be put to a vote.

The ethics of DIY. A constitution of sorts about the rights and wrongs of what you can do with DIY information and still be apart of this forum or considered apart of the DIY community for that matter. If the topic is brought up after a ruling has been made it will be referred to the DIY constitution and the thread will be closed or 86'd. If the consensus is not to have such a code then that will be the final verdict and will be referred to when a thread is closed.

All these "is it right or is it wrong" threads take away from what the forum is about and gets people hating another. DIY pedals should not be confused with politics and I strongly suggest a community ruling on the matter to finally put it to rest.

That's a good point, IMO - in effect sort of a "This is how we (as a community) feel about it here at DIYstompboxes.com"

bw

[R.G.]

I probably oughta weigh in on this one. I think the board layout from GGG is one licensed from me.

When JD and I set this up, we addressed this issue. If someone wants to build commercially, that's fine. The price of each board includes a license to use the board for any purpose including selling the resulting pedal. If someone wants to go into volume production by buying my boards as licensed through GGG, fine and dandy, as there is a path for me to be paid for my efforts.

I *like* that. It's the virtuous path for copyright - the "artist", being me, is getting paid a fee for the use of his artwork, and that's how the music, book, and art industry are supposed to work. Frankly, I'd welcome more of that. My take per board is quite modest, as is usual for this kind of thing.

My snickering is only because of the advertising copy.

If the person is buying one board from GGG, and proceeding to make up a thousand copies of it on their own without paying a license fee, they are in clear violation of the copyright law. And this is a good illustration of what copyright is all about. The artist gets a (usually) modest fee per copy for producing or having produced copies of their artwork. They can then use the proceeds of their work to live on and produce more artwork. It's like natural and organic and wholesome.

[vanessa]

That's a good point, IMO - in effect sort of a "This is how we (as a community) feel about it here at DIYstompboxes.com"

bw

I believe its time has come. And it should be placed up at the very top of all the sticky's (like what to do when it doesn't work, etc.) and always referred to when this topic comes up over and over. I mean this topic comes up at least once a week.

[Meanderthal]

 One thing I would suggest is that if you were to list one on ebay you IMMEDIATELY disclose to the forum that it's YOU doing so. Not because anybody needs OUR permission(heh), but because It'll take a lot more courage to insult someone you talk to often. Notice that nobody answered TBOM, (not that I'm sure if he was serious or not) did they?

Otherwise, it seems the best you could hope for is to fly under the radar... but that just means that your auction isn't attracting attention. Not good if ya wanna SELL something.

Good point TBOM!

[vanessa]

I probably oughta weigh in on this one. I think the board layout from GGG is one licensed from me.

You had better get to collecting your millions! The VOX 847 pcb is identical in every way to the GGG basic wah pcb. I thought it was a trace from the VOX 847. If you designed it they must have stolen it from you.

[MikeH]

Yeah, lounge all the way. 

I think you guys might have misunderstood me, because I didn't fully explain.  I don't have a problem with him selling it on ebay or wherever.  I'm not against that.  And I'm not saying anything about that at all, really.  I didn't intend to comment about ethics of DIY.  If he sells it, good for him.  I don't care. The thing I didn't believe was what he said about "I reverse engineered it myself..." yadda yadda.  Because it would seem to me if you went through all of the trouble to RE something yourself, you'd probably come up wth your own layout.  The fact that he used the GGG board makes the likely scenario that he found out what a CD was, and realized he could build it with that board and did so.  That's what I thought he was "lying" about.  But that's just my opinion, nobody knows.

And that aside, I think if your going to use a valuable resource like GGG (which isn't some gigantic mega-comnglomerate who's products are everywhere), it would be just plain cool to give them props for it, although it certainly isn't an obligation, just a cool thing to do.  Again, just my opinion, not a fact.

[Meanderthal]

 He's talking about that specific BMP PCB. I have bought GGG pcb's with R.G.'s name on em, and some with J.D. getting the credits. Obviously, not EVERY layout they sell was done by R.G., and for all I know there may be other 'artists' involved with some of their projects.

[Doug_H]

Given the dubious history of the Creamy Dreamer to begin with, I don't know why anyone cares about this at all.

I don't understand the hostility towards Ebayers or the automatic assumptions that they are ripping people off either. I'm probably going to sell a few things on Ebay this year. I figure it's an easy way to see what goes over without investing $$$ to find out.

[idlechatterbox]

I personally don't see anything wrong with the eBay practices that others take issue with. But I also admit that I enjoy thinking about the threads that delve into business ethics, or the DIY's Code of Conduct. The name-calling is sort of odd and unnecessary, but the underlying claims are often thought-provoking. So I would hate to see the threads or the thread-writers go away, but maybe that's just me.

If we can all have different views on the best guitar tone, why expect it to be otherwise with ethics? If I can say that I don't care much for wahs (sorry, I just don't) without offending anyone (I hope), should it be any different with some controversy over the amount of "yourself" that has to be part of a do-it-yourself project? There seem to be good, rational arguments on either side of a lot of these issues. And Aron seems pretty clear that there's a lounge or PM if things get too far off track anyway.  

Just a thought. Have a great Monday everyone  

[Mark Hammer]

Ethics.  Whenever I hear that word, I am always always always reminded of actor John Polito's constant face-scrunched line in the Coen Brothers' fabulous gangster film Miller's Crossing: "It's a question o' ettics" (no "th" from his lips).

As much as I crave coherent ethical frameworks, and consistency in human forum behaviour, we would do well to remember that there is a huge difference between the sort of ethical codes that might occur in, say a guild of the 1300's that might be confined to a given region, and an earth-wide "store" such as e-bay. That's the illusion that English creates for us.  That somehow, because the lingua franca of the web is English, that it is somehow geographically confined to the familiar and local, and sharply delimited in a cultural sense.  It isn't.  It may well be better English than one finds on a great many Chinese commercial websites, but it caters to the same potential clientele - from one pole to the other and across all time zones.  The possibility of identifying a set of uniformly applicable circumstances within which a given ethical code makes sense or is defensible is  pretty darn small, and about as small as identifying the set of circumstances under which killing someone is justifiable and socially defensible.  I don't want to place selling a DIY pedal in the same sphere as whether a certain former dictator "deserved" to be hung.  Rather, if one were to propose that killing a human is morally wrong, there would be an unending stream of exceptions to the rule that everybody supposedly initiallyagreed upon.  The exceptions that were offered from sub-Saharan Africa would be different than those from Europe, or from Central America, or from polar cultures, or from social classes or religious/linguistic subgroups within any of those regions.  EVERYONE would be able to identify a set of circumstances under which taking the life of another human could be and would be defensible.

Consequently, as noble as it sets out to be, any exercise in trying to establish a clear set of concrete guidelines here would be like brother RG "Commander" Keen (am I the only one who likes that nickname?) describes as "Shovelling sand against the tide".  Yes, we could all agree on big picture principles like "It is inappropriate to try and get rich by mooching off others' work or ideas".  But identifying the point at which something changes from harmless to predatory mooching would go on indefinitely (after you sell 1 pedal?  5 pedals to friends?  a one-time lot of 20 to a local store?  7 over e-bay?).

Let it not be inferred for one nanosecond, however, that I despair of ever encouraging *more* ethical behaviour in people, or that we should not all makes efforts of that sort.  There is ALWAYS a nicer and fairer way to do things and folks should always be commended when they lean in that direction, and encouraged to consider leaning in that direction whenever and wherever possible.  It's the identifying of when they are and aren't leaning that I have a problem with.  I wish I didn't, but when you have to find a monolithic ethical code for the whole world, you kinda run into problems.

[vanessa]

He's talking about that specific BMP PCB. I have bought GGG pcb's with R.G.'s name on em, and some with J.D. getting the credits. Obviously, not EVERY layout they sell was done by R.G., and for all I know there may be other 'artists' involved with some of their projects.

I remember seeing a EH BMP board that looked very similar to the GGG layout. If I was to do a time line on it the EH board would come up the winner...

[Meanderthal]

The fact that he used the GGG board makes the likely scenario that he found out what a CD was, and realized he could build it with that board and did so.  That's what I thought he was "lying" about.

I apologize if I have come across as hostile myself... but frankly I'm not following the logic. It's a modded BMP. The PCB(whole kit actually) is a convenient way to build a BMP.

If I dance and it rains, does that mean dancing makes it rain? Of course not! There's absolutely no connection between the 2.  And at least in that case, I can see how someone might think there is, but not doing a layout implying there was no reverse engineering? That's even more far fetched(IMHO). Maybe there's something I missed?

[wampcat1]

It's like natural and organic and wholesome.