"Boutique-ing" a Jekyll & Hyde

pedalpusher · July 03, 2007, 12:18:44 AM

Anyone ever mod one of these? I saw in one post that They are a TS808 and a Shredmaster respectively but with some mods. I was comparing the 808 side to a Mojo Drive and it falls short. I'd like to know how different these circuits are from the circuits that inspired them. If I could do something that would bring the Jekyll side up near the level of one of those $300-$500 pedals I'd be happy!

Barcode80 · July 03, 2007, 12:33:55 AM

i don't think you can match the cost/production of those pedals for as cheap as you can buy them. i know, i own one, and you should really purchase it!

soulsonic · July 03, 2007, 12:43:37 AM

It sounds like he already has one, and just wants to mod it. Doesn't RG make those? (please correct me if I'm wrong, I was thinking Visual Sound is his thing). I'm sure he could give some ideas.

jschwalls · July 03, 2007, 12:47:28 AM

which do you have the red box or grey box..

jonathan perez · July 03, 2007, 12:49:16 AM

why would you want one of those $300-500 pedals?

why dont you just want a pedal that sounds good?

do you think $500 will sound good?

have you ever trampled $500 every night before? if you havent, dont take up the habit.

i think youve been misled to believe that $300-500 pedals sound good, simply because theyre expensive...

Barcode80 · July 03, 2007, 01:00:17 AM

i've been led to think THAT expensive pedal sounds awesome because i own it

R.G. consults for visual sound, but does not own it. i think he designed a lot of the pedals though.

soulsonic · July 03, 2007, 01:06:51 AM

Quote from: Barcode80 on July 03, 2007, 01:00:17 AM
i've been led to think THAT expensive pedal sounds awesome because i own it

If it's a quality pedal, then it's probably worth it.

Yeah, he said he compared it to the Mojo Drive and he thought the Jeckyl was lacking - he wants it to sound more like the Mojo.
I could build a $500 pedal that would totally sound superior to most boutique products, and it would actually be worth $500. All it takes is careful component selection and an uncompromising circuit. But unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of expensive pedals don't follow that line of thought. Most of the time, boutiquers use the same cheap parts and simple circuits everyone else uses - that's why they hate people cloning them, because it's so cheap and easy to do. Most of the markup is paying for the builder's ego. Now, if I were to build and sell a $500 overdrive, I GUARANTEE no one would be able to build their own clone for less than $300-$400, so I wouldn't care if anyone passed around the schematic or tried to clone it because it would be more worth while just to buy an original.

The Tone God · July 03, 2007, 01:29:24 AM

We are talking about music here and "superior" is purely subjective. What you may not think it is worth $500 it maybe worth that much to someone else who gets the sound they want with that piece of gear. Also there are builders who while using simple circuits do spend the time tweaking things on a per pedal basis. It is not all about part quality and design.

Andrew

soulsonic · July 03, 2007, 02:07:30 AM

Yes, superior sound is purely subjective, but at that elevated price point, superior DESIGN and superior parts QUALITY are absolutely essential. Anyone who'd pay $500 for a pedal filled with the same parts Boss or DOD would use is a fool, and he's getting ripped off. You're not just paying for something that sounds good, you should also be paying for quality parts that are well above the average and should last a lifetime. The design of the device should be as close to perfect as possible, so there's no mistakes, no embarrassing failures, and no wasted time with something that only half works. They shouldn't be expensive because the builder sits there and tweaks it forever to get it to sound good, a quality design works it's best without nit-picky "tweaking". These are rules that are taught to engineers when they learn how to design. The problem with many of these so-called "boutiquers" is that they're NOT trained in the fundamental concepts of engineering, and are ignorant of the culture where quality in design and manufacture is the number one priority. They're just building cheap ol' pedals just like anyone else. Do you think some dude can charge $300 for a boost just because he built it in his garage with a $10 transistor that took him an hour to get biased because he doesn't know what he's doing? I don't think so.

Expensive pedals and amps should be considered an investment for the serious player who demands quality, not just something to show off how rich you are - which is what most boutique builders are catering to - rich folks who buy expensive stuff just because it's expensive.
(Note: I'm not trying to offend anyone who owns expensive stuff, I own some expensive stuff too...... I'm trying to offend boutiquers who think it's cool to sell dimestore junk at outrageous prices.)

The Tone God · July 03, 2007, 02:14:32 AM

I generally don't pass judgement on other gear I haven't used. I just let the market decide. If its crap it won't last. If its good it will do well. Pretty simple.

Andrew

soulsonic · July 03, 2007, 02:25:34 AM

I'm not going to argue. You can clearly see where I stand on this issue.

Dragonfly · July 03, 2007, 02:31:51 AM

Quote from: soulsonic on July 03, 2007, 02:07:30 AM
Yes, superior sound is purely subjective, but at that elevated price point, superior DESIGN and superior parts QUALITY are absolutely essential. Anyone who'd pay $500 for a pedal filled with the same parts Boss or DOD would use is a fool, and he's getting ripped off. You're not just paying for something that sounds good, you should also be paying for quality parts that are well above the average and should last a lifetime. The design of the device should be as close to perfect as possible, so there's no mistakes, no embarrassing failures, and no wasted time with something that only half works. They shouldn't be expensive because the builder sits there and tweaks it forever to get it to sound good, a quality design works it's best without nit-picky "tweaking". These are rules that are taught to engineers when they learn how to design. The problem with many of these so-called "boutiquers" is that they're NOT trained in the fundamental concepts of engineering, and are ignorant of the culture where quality in design and manufacture is the number one priority. They're just building cheap ol' pedals just like anyone else. Do you think some dude can charge $300 for a boost just because he built it in his garage with a $10 transistor that took him an hour to get biased because he doesn't know what he's doing? I don't think so.

Expensive pedals and amps should be considered an investment for the serious player who demands quality, not just something to show off how rich you are - which is what most boutique builders are catering to - rich folks who buy expensive stuff just because it's expensive.
(Note: I'm not trying to offend anyone who owns expensive stuff, I own some expensive stuff too...... I'm trying to offend boutiquers who think it's cool to sell dimestore junk at outrageous prices.)

While I understand 100% what you're saying, it doesnt ALWAYS hold true. An experienced engineer will also tell you that "expensive parts" don't ALWAYS equal the "best sound". Sometimes a cheaper / inferior part is exactly what the sound requires. For instance, "engineers" told us (and continue to tell us) that tubes are inferior to solid state technology. In many ways they are correct, yet "our ears" tell us differently. One of the more successful guys around here specializes in Big Muff style circuits. He swears by carbon comp resistors and ceramic caps. His pedal sales and the reviews of his pedals tell us that others like the sound of his pedals with the "inferior parts".

The "best part" or "parts" depend entirely on the circuit, the objective of the circuit, and the designers "opinion" of what are the best parts for the circuit.

My $.02

soulsonic · July 03, 2007, 02:48:48 AM

What I was referring to was quality in relationship to reliability. Sure sometimes electrically "inferior" components sound better, but just because their electrical performance is poor, doesn't necessarily mean their reliability is poor. My emphasis is reliability - I should have made that more clear.

Carbon comp resistors might be considered lower quality as far as noise and thermal properties are concerned, but they are considered superior when it comes to pulse-handling duties - and they're definitely NOT cheap. Ceramic caps may introduce nonlinearities to audio signals, but they are excellent in snubbing networks, and sometimes the nonlinearities work great for a cool sound. Every part has a purpose, and as far as designing a cool sounding effect box is concerned, "anything goes". Of course, my argument would be that if the box is expensive, he should be using the best quality carbon comps and ceramic caps, so the pedal will last a lifetime without failure. That's my point.

theblackman · July 03, 2007, 02:53:34 AM

how good something sounds is entirely subjective. some people believe that "you get what you pay for" but that is not always true. i don't think this is something that can be argued to reach a logical conclusion, but i agree with soulsonic in that the only measurable value in a stompbox is that of build quality and reliability and that is what i look for when buying something myself...

Dragonfly · July 03, 2007, 03:04:28 AM

Quote from: soulsonic on July 03, 2007, 02:48:48 AM
What I was referring to was quality in relationship to reliability. Sure sometimes electrically "inferior" components sound better, but just because their electrical performance is poor, doesn't necessarily mean their reliability is poor. My emphasis is reliability - I should have made that more clear.

Carbon comp resistors might be considered lower quality as far as noise and thermal properties are concerned, but they are considered superior when it comes to pulse-handling duties - and they're definitely NOT cheap. Ceramic caps may introduce nonlinearities to audio signals, but they are excellent in snubbing networks, and sometimes the nonlinearities work great for a cool sound. Every part has a purpose, and as far as designing a cool sounding effect box is concerned, "anything goes". Of course, my argument would be that if the box is expensive, he should be using the best quality carbon comps and ceramic caps, so the pedal will last a lifetime without failure. That's my point.

Well stated, and I definitely can agree with what you're saying.

The only thing that could be argued (unsuccessfully, and the argument could go on forever) is that given quality parts and construction, why should somebody pay hundreds extra to one designer / builder over another. Thats where hype, name recognition, etc, etc come in to play. Is it worth $100 more to have a pedal from "Builder A" over "Builder B"? Well, thats up to the individual to decide. It's kinda like buying a car....a $60K car isn't "twice as good" as a $30K car...its more like 10% better. To some people, that 10% is incredibly important...to others, it isn't.

Anyway, its bedtime for me...have a great night !

theblackman · July 03, 2007, 03:11:25 AM

dragonfly, your yoda-elvis avatar is kinda freakin me out...

pedalpusher · July 03, 2007, 07:31:55 PM

Wow! Didn't expect that much of a response. Anyway I'm not too keen on paying $500.00 for a pedal. I just thought it'd be cool to make a $100.00 pedal sound like 2 $500.00 pedals. I've been on a kick lately of wondering if cheap pedals could be made to sound really good with a little extra investment. Rocktron pedals would seem like good canidates if they weren't so big. There are others as well that sell cheap that I'd like to modify for fun and great tone.

jonathan perez · July 03, 2007, 07:34:25 PM

ok, lets be clear then...

what kind of modifications are you looking to do?

R.G. · July 03, 2007, 07:49:53 PM

Would it be possible for you to discuss this in relation to what changes you might want to make to a Tube Screamer, not a J&H?

pedalpusher · July 03, 2007, 07:50:38 PM

Quote from: thebattleofmidway on July 03, 2007, 07:34:25 PM
ok, lets be clear then...

what kind of modifications are you looking to do?

Basically I'd like to revoice the Jekyll side a little to My taste and make it more responsive to playing dynamics like The Mojo Drive (which is supposed to be like a Landy). The Hyde side is pretty cool but if it can be improved a little i.e. more tubeamp-like that would also be cool. Neither side is as good as I'd want them to be if The J&H were My only pedal. As an example, if I could plop it on the floor next to Someone's Landy DO and Mo'D and have it sound just as good I'd be a happy camper. If My $140.00 J&H sounded as good as Someone else's $1000.00 investment it would be hard not to be a Smartass and gloat about it.

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"Boutique-ing" a Jekyll & Hyde