"Boutique-ing" a Jekyll & Hyde

[pedalpusher]

Would it be possible for you to discuss this in relation to what changes you might want to make to a Tube Screamer, not a J&H?

Sure. I don't really like stock TS's but I've owned plenty of variations of the TS circuit. The Red Snapper, Blue Collar, Blues Devil etc. I'd rather have those sounds than a stock TS sound. The Jekyll doesn't sound bad but I'd rather have it sound like one the pedals I mentioned. Hope that makes sense. Also I was wondering if there are upgrade "secrets" that would improve the tone of any OD/Dist. pedal.

[R.G.]

As an example, if I could plop it on the floor next to Someone's Landy DO and Mo'D and have it sound just as good I'd be a happy camper. If My $140.00 J&H sounded as good as Someone else's $1000.00 investment it would be hard not to be a Smartass and gloat about it.

There are two problems with that.
1. "just as good" is highly, highly subjective. Ask ten people which pedals sound best, get ten answers. And they're all correct. They all sound "best" - to them. I can absolutely guarantee you that if you plopped the J&H on the floor next to a [insert your favorite pedal here] that you would get two different opinions. Remember that the owner of a $1000 pedal has 860 reasons not to think your $140 J&H sounds good; the same 860 not to think he's a fool for buying the expensive one. You can't win that argument.

2. The J&H pays my salary. Could we please not discuss it here? Instead, if you have specific mod requests, the service line at Visual Sound does do some of that. I don't think Dave will be able just to reel off batch of mods for you to select from, but you might ask him about making it sound more [however you want it to sound]. The J&H, like all pedals, is a compromise. However, it's compromise is made in the direction of a very wide range of tones that can be used. We get a lot of feedback on it from studio and session pros that it is very flexible and can be tuned in to a remarkably wide range of sounds on the spot as needed.

Also I was wondering if there are upgrade "secrets" that would improve the tone of any OD/Dist. pedal.

It's tempting to think that those exist, isn't it? Sadly, probably not, given the wide variation in musical taste. Just bright enough for you is too harsh for the next guy. However, if you want to read about how a number of pedals work, go read the "Technology of..." series at  GEO, http://www.geofex.com, and especially "The Technology of the Tube Screamer". Beyond that, the very terms "upgrade" and "improve" tend to suggest a single dimension in English at least. There are so many different dimensions of things to be modified in an overdrive pedal's tone that "more" is pretty much impossible to define. Which would you rather have - four teacups or a lugwrench? More even harmonic distortion even if it costs more intermodulation or a midrange hump which softens the cross-distortion? Jello or a bicycle?

Finally, as you've noticed, what you pay for a pedal is not particularly related to what it's worth. I don't think I'd consider any pedal to be an investment unless I were one of the sessions musicians I mentioned.

So - how do you want a TS modified?

[pedalpusher]

Feel free to delete this thread.

[wampcat1]

Yes, superior sound is purely subjective, but at that elevated price point, superior DESIGN and superior parts QUALITY are absolutely essential. Anyone who'd pay $500 for a pedal filled with the same parts Boss or DOD would use is a fool, and he's getting ripped off. You're not just paying for something that sounds good, you should also be paying for quality parts that are well above the average and should last a lifetime. The design of the device should be as close to perfect as possible, so there's no mistakes, no embarrassing failures, and no wasted time with something that only half works. They shouldn't be expensive because the builder sits there and tweaks it forever to get it to sound good, a quality design works it's best without nit-picky "tweaking". These are rules that are taught to engineers when they learn how to design. The problem with many of these so-called "boutiquers" is that they're NOT trained in the fundamental concepts of engineering, and are ignorant of the culture where quality in design and manufacture is the number one priority. They're just building cheap ol' pedals just like anyone else. Do you think some dude can charge $300 for a boost just because he built it in his garage with a $10 transistor that took him an hour to get biased because he doesn't know what he's doing? I don't think so.

Expensive pedals and amps should be considered an investment for the serious player who demands quality, not just something to show off how rich you are - which is what most boutique builders are catering to - rich folks who buy expensive stuff just because it's expensive.
(Note: I'm not trying to offend anyone who owns expensive stuff, I own some expensive stuff too...... I'm trying to offend boutiquers who think it's cool to sell dimestore junk at outrageous prices.)

no offense, but that's dumbed down so much it just isn't true. Want to know why boutiquers build ts clones? Because they sell. plain and simple. Guitarists buy things that sound familiar and when you come out with a wacked circuit then you get people who want it to sound more like product a or product b.

If you think price has anything to do with sound, and/or quality you are SOOOOOORRRRREEELLLLLYYY mistaken. Price is ONLY a direct reflective of marketing, hype, and supply/demand.

bw

[markm]

Guitarists buy things that sound familiar and when you come out with a wacked circuit then you get people who want it to sound more like product a or product b.

I agree except that ZVEX has come out with some pretty whacky stuff.......ummm just to name a few? 
Does it sell?
I guess that's a different story.

[WGTP]

Sometimes the differnece between Magic and mush is the change of a single component value.   

[wampcat1]

Guitarists buy things that sound familiar and when you come out with a wacked circuit then you get people who want it to sound more like product a or product b.

I agree except that ZVEX has come out with some pretty whacky stuff.......ummm just to name a few? 
Does it sell?
I guess that's a different story.

true...I guess I meant more along the overdrive type of pedals, more along the lines of that type of customer.

[Mark Hammer]

The question that often does not get asked in debates such as this is the very one the manufacturer has to ask themselves:  What am I gonna sell this thing for?

That's a pretty complicated question; more complicated than the naive observer would think.  It certainly involves more than a simple estimate of what the parts cost.  Often it involves considerations like:

• "What pricepoint will get me taken seriously?".  That in itself is a complicated one.  "Taken seriously" could imply priced so cheaply for the number of knobs and switches that consumers or distributors go "Hmmm, that looks interesting.  Wonder if there's something to it?".  It could mean "Hmm, a little pricey, but maybe that means there's some quality under the hood".  It could mean "Same price as one of those pedals, but there seems to be a few more features for the price.  Wonder if it's any better.".  Price has more meaning and connotation than you'd think sometimes.  A guy like Pete Cornish charges what he does because his price says "Look, don't bother unless you're serious".  His pricepoint is not meant to attract any and all clients, but to attract the type he prefers to deal with.  Uli Behringer prices his stuff so that as many people will buy it as possible.
• "How long can I hold out?".  People borrow money, and a whole lot of goodwill to start up a business.  They have to plead for extensions on loans, spousal patience, rent, etc.  You might note as well that as a one-guy-in-an-apartment operation, your health plan is perhaps not the most extensive out there.  Sometimes, you have to charge more than maybe you planned on because unless you ship 1000 pedals tomorrow (and who knows where you'd find the time to solder them all), there's no way you can charge what you thought might be a pleasing price for customers and still have a place to work out of come Monday morning.
• "What sort of operating cash do I need to take the next step and assure X?".  "X" could be a custom chassis or paint job jobbed out, purchase of a batch of custom or rare chips or some other inventory that moves to a more competitive price at that volume, purchase of a piece of machinery that will allow you to do something better, more conveniently, more reliably, etc.  Maybe the pedal really IS only worth $85 but you need to charge $250@ or else your business will grind to a halt.
• Overhead.  Some boo-teek places actually employ people.  As an employer, you have to pay wages and all those other things that business operators have to shell out for.  The pricepoint has to assure that, if you can move as many units as you hope, everyone's salary is assured, not just your own.  You will note as well, that boo-teek manufacturers tend to have to pay North American or European wages and benefits, NOT southeast Asian wages and benefits.  I'm sure Behringer pays respectable wages for the region, but you can charge Behringer prices when you pay Behringer employees.  While it is a delightful part of his "brand", the quality of graphics and finishing on Z-Vex boxes represents a kind of albatross that drastically ups the price of his pedals.  Cutesy little pictures ain't tone, but they still cost to have on the boxes.  If it takes X number of hours to produce that finishing, there is no way around paying wages for that number of hours in American dollars, despite however little it may or may not cost for the parts inside and the price of a 1590B..

Price reflects build/component quality to some extent.  After all, you can't charge more if the build/component quality does not meet expectations.  It ain't just pedals either.  How often do you see restaurant reviews where the reviewer says "For $28, I was expecting fresh mango not canned mango".  Does price reflect something more than build/component quality?  Sure.  But it is the rare business operator who thinks largely in terms of "How much can I hoodwink people for and still get away with it?"  At least it is the rare business operator who plans on being around for awhile and building a reputation.

For those of us who think in terms of "What could *I* build that for?", a great many prices seem ridiculous and like gouging, but then we have no idea of what the manufacturer sees out of that personally.  Of course, we know what our bank account sees...personally.

I'm reminded of the character in the (now defunct) sketch comedy show "Goodness Gracious Me" who felt everything cost too much and would always proclaim about anything with more than a bargain-basement price-tag: "That?  I can make that at home for nothing.  All I need is a small aubergine....."

[markm]

Ya know Mark, I can't really disagree with what you are saying because it does hold true for every business.
From the very large to the very small, all of the problems are similar some just on a grander scale.
With that said, the Boutique industry has flourished over the last several years and grown considerably with new companies springing up and older companies re-establishing themselves in the business.
A fact needs to be faced though.
Any business that grows and flourishes at the pace the Boutique industry has is setting itself up for a fall and demise.
The market is Bloated and will not be able to support it much longer.

[The Tone God]

How many times have we seen people pass judgement on what they believe is worth while in the bouteek world ? I've been saying it for awhile now but the final judgement is done by the market place. One's opinion does not matter. If the market drops out then those who have done a good job with their biz will survive.

Andrew

[Mark Hammer]

One of the things that drives the perception of "worthwhile" is one's awareness of what's out there.  That's the thing about the boutique market/industry.  If your conception of it is forged by what you find in the display case of your local music store, or even what you see advertised in guitar magazines, your notion will tend to be narrowly circumscribed.  If your notion is forged on the basis of e-retailers like Sam Ash or Musician's Friend, you may have an even more narrowly circumscribed view.  If you live outside North America, your view may be different.  If you frequent places like pedalgeek or musictoyz, your view will be different again.  I don't visit those places very often, and whenever I do, I am flooded with a few profound sentiments, like:
- When the hell did THAT company start up?
- Cripes, how many distortion tones ARE there? (AKA How many freakin TS808/Rangemaster/FuzzFace clones can there be?)
- Hammond is probably making more money off the boo-teek industry than anyone.
- Don't these guys have any conception of who their competition is, or how much of it there is, out there?

If I see 29 different rangemaster clones selling for $180+, I am given to wonder why someone hasn't found a way to make them cheaper yet, given all that competition, and am also given to wonder just what exactly pedal X delivers over pedal Y if they both come in a 1590B with a 3PDT stompswitch yet are $40 different in price.  Again, as someone thinking about the business model behind pricing, I may understand that price difference, but as a consumer I will find it bewildering.

[soulsonic]

Mark,
Your insights are as thoughtful and intelligent as ever. What rubs me is that once a product reaches the elevated price point of say, $200 for a single-transistor boost, then I think it would be perfectly reasonable for the builder to bring up the parts quality and go ahead and bump the price up another $50 if necessary. All these cheap parts is what's making my hair stand up on end, because it's ridiculous to have something that expensive be built with cheap parts. Yes, fancy paint jobs and healthcare are expensive and drive up the costs of small businesses, but why not have the inside of the box match the outside for a change?

Brian,
I didn't dumb it down at all - those are the standards that should be met if someone wants to play in the world of the high-end boutique business. I absolutely agree with you that hype and marketing have alot to do with prices - my argument is that they SHOULDN'T. Quality of the end product should determine the price. I know that's not how they do it with pedals, but I'm saying maybe they should.

I obviously come from a different culture than most people here. When I lived in Chicago, I worked in a high-end boutique hi-fi salon where I sat around listening to $100,000 stereos all day. The reason why that stuff is so expensive is because the builders are absolutely uncompromising both in the quality and detail of the products they offer. Yes, after awhile it gets to a point of diminishing returns, and it's hard to tell how much better a $30,000 speaker is than a $2,000 speaker just by listening to it, but when you look at it closely you see the elevated quality of the parts and construction and the absolutely anal attention to detail on the higher-priced speaker and you'll be able to see where that extra $28,000 went. Yes, many times that detail isn't important and companies make things that are expensive simply for making the sake of making something that's expensive because they know they'll sell it, but at least they make sure that in most cases you get your money's worth. I remember speaking with one of the guys from Dynaudio at a trade show, they had just released their new flagship $80,000 speaker system, and I asked him why they did it and what they were trying to prove. He said simply, "We built it because we know we can sell it." Very true, very true, but I must say they made sure that the $80K Dynaudio speaker system is the best sounding Dynaudio ever made, so at least the guy who buys it will feel like he's gotten his money's worth.

[pedalpusher]

So how do You know what parts are cheap tone-wise? Is it related to price? Is there a general consensus on which parts are "best" for OD pedals? Or is this just another can of worms? I'll stay away from discussing currently produced pedals but say I wanted to "improve" the tone of My Peavey Hot Foot distortion. Are there some types of capacitors that most will agree will improve the tone of The HF? It sounds great but lacks the sparkle and life of a decent tube amp.

[Ed G.]

I don't know if pricey components automatically equal great tone. Tone is subjective, and it might be nice to open up a pedal and see all metal film resistors and polystyrene caps, but this ain't hi-fi. Expanding tonal range sometimes means opening up frequencies that highlight harshness. A well-respected designer I know prefers a certain (cheap) type of ceramics in the tone section of his pedals. Another guy I know says he can't stand the sound of metal film in his distortion pedals. Tonal 'smearing' might be a curse in the world of hi-fi audio, but be beautiful in guitar tone.

Now, when you talk about pricey components, I'd say it might be justified when you talk about switches, jacks, pots, the circuit board material, including the thickness of the traces, etc... these might relate to durability, and pedals should be made durable.
That said, I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind that if RG had a hand in designing the J&H, then durability was considered and addressed.

[soulsonic]

Capacitors can make a big difference. Sometimes a cheap cap can give a pedal a unique flavor, but in many cases inappropriate choices can really choke the tone out of something that would otherwise sound good. For example, the Dunlop reissue Fuzz Face uses a Tantalum cap as it's input coupling cap. The overwhelming majority of Tantalum caps are not intended for this and in most cases sound terrible for audio. By removing the tantalum cap and replacing it with a quality film cap, I was able to make a noticeable improvement in the overall tone. Sometimes it's not always that easy, but with a simple circuit little things like that seem to make a bigger difference.

If you want to learn more about the sounds of different capacitors and how it might affect the tone of a pedal, you can check out this interesting article by Steve Bench: http://members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html
But be warned - his conclusions seem to point to Paper & Oil Foil caps as potentially being the best, but that doesn't mean they'd be the best choice in a pedal necessarily. And good luck trying to fit one in there!

[GREEN FUZ]

Hey pedalpusher, looks like you`ve been hijacked. As somebody pointed out, Tone is very subjective. Personally I like cheap stuff. Give me an old Teisco del Rey over a Custom shop relic any day.
Check out this link for an easily digestible `beginner`s guide` to modding pedals. It should provide a starting point and hopefully answer some of your questions.

http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/index.php?title=Simplemods#Simple.2C_Easy_Mods.2FTips_.26_Techniques

[soulsonic]

I love my Eastwood guitars - cheap and dripping with tone and mojo!

[The Tone God]

Sorry if we went on a little tangent there pedalpusher but back to your request. I think part of the problem is the language you are choosing to use. We are a technical forum and as such the use of subjective terms like "improved" tone is difficult to help with. Saying you want something to sound like something else is generally not very useful either. It would help better to describe what you looking for example more high end, more distortion, more midrange, and so forth. Maybe include what type of music you play and what you want the effect to do in relation with your music.

Andrew

[pedalpusher]

Well this all started because I replaced a switch in My Buddy's J&H. I was looking at the circuit board and saw that it would be easy to replace components. I naturally figured You Folks would have had some experience with this and came looking for some tricks/tips etc. Now I'm just going to give My Buddy back His J&H and move on.

I've been focusing more these days on getting My Son setup w/ some "good" gear. We'll be reconstructing My old gutted Sovtek Mig100 with a completely original circuit and slapping some new speakers in His 2x12. Modding pedals is a way I thought I could satisfy My desire to try new things and play with different sounds w/o spending too much money. For what it costs these days to ship a couple of pedals You can almost buy enough parts to have a lot of fun. I just bought an inexspensive TS type off ebay and will be playing around with that. I'm not sure how close it is circuit wise to a stock TS so I'll have to wait till I get it.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions and I'll be back, hopefully with an improved vocabulary! LOL

P.S. I have a Peavey Hot Foot on Ebay right now. If it don't sell I'll have some questions that I'll post in a new thread. Thanks!

[Dragonfly]

Pedalpusher...

Why don't you start by looking at the schematic of the pedal that you like (the Landgraff and its clones), and looking at the pedal you're modding (essentially a Tubescreamer), and note what the differences are ? Then make those changes in your pedal ?

You should be able to find a Landgraff schematic by using the forums "search" function, keyword "Grandlaff".

That should enable you to not only make the changes that you want, but to hear HOW they affect the tone of the basic circuit.

Best of luck,
  AC