workhorse amps

[Mark Hammer]

That's what my people call "the emmis" (the truth).

[DougH]

Awhile back someone was talking to me about them wanting to make and sell mini amps. I was trying to not sound like a wet blanket listening to them talk but near the end I did bring up these issues. Quickly all talk of selling amps ceased. I guess they didn't realize the implications of their potential biz.

A few years ago I spoke to someone who had built and sold a few amps. I mentioned this stuff and his reaction was (paraphrased), "No, I hadn't thought of that. Huh..."

Sooner or later someone's house is going to burn down from a "boutique" amp and then the fun will be over.

[Cliff Schecht]

The guitar amp (and effect) market is already oversaturated. Unless you're introducing some revolutionary feature set or are willing to convince people that you have a better product than the competition, it's a hard market to get into. I was interested in getting into designing high-end tube amps for audiophiles for a good while, until I realized how many people already build these types of devices. Since I currently have nothing to add to the market, it would have been a waste of time more than anything.

[scaesic]

We made a bunch, sold them all. We were tooling up for making a bundle more, given the sales and comments back from customers. In the process of doing the analysis on how many to make, we looked at overall profits and return on investment for amps, and found that we could make more money making effects than making amps.

If you've never participated in a set of decision making like this, it can be surprising. We had made a good amplifier (overall; nothing makes everybody happy, that's just the way it is), liked them ourselves, generated a lot of positive buzz about it in pro circles, which is always nice. Put out some groundbreaking features with it as well and a big chunk of that was into things like reliability that won't show up for years. On top of that, we just liked them - not surprising, since making the collective us happy was one of the reasons to make amps. I had a 100W head-and-cab design ready to go to the factory for production.

But the First Rule of Holes is that if you find that you're in a hole, stop digging. Even if the hole isn't all that unpleasant or that deep. In spite of the bad taste in our mouths it caused, we decided that for now, we should put our efforts into effects, not amps.

Small businesses have to be very proactive about what they spend their limited funds on. You've probably read at least one of my polemics about economics driving decisions. The trick is to be sensitive enough to economics that you can decide ahead of time what's good for you instead of after the fact what you shoulda done.

So, we stopped on purpose. Not because they were bad, not because we lost money, not because people hated them or we got stuck with a bunch. We just decided it was best for now. And some day when we have a bigger economic base, we may go back.    I hope we can. It was fun.

I totally understand where these kind of decisions come from, it's a shame for the consumer but it makes sense for the buisness.

out of interest, did you consider scaling down your amplifier game rather than ceasing altogether? I'm talking of a scaled down large practice amp/small venues. You could have reduced costs with a re-designed amp pitched somewhere between a small practice amp and the pony. This would allow it to retail for slightly cheaper, but not reduce he rrp significantly compared to the pony, therefore increasing the profit margin and putting in less risk as you'd be pushing one product. You could throw in an entry level distortion instead of the route 66 - hooking people in to the visualsounds effects marketn(you want to leave them room to UPGRADE to the route 66!), again, reducing overheads compared to the pony or stallion.

obviously, the re-design would cost a lot, and i doubt it'd be feasible anymore in this climate.

[The Tone God]

The guitar amp (and effect) market is already oversaturated. Unless you're introducing some revolutionary feature set or are willing to convince people that you have a better product than the competition, it's a hard market to get into. I was interested in getting into designing high-end tube amps for audiophiles for a good while, until I realized how many people already build these types of devices. Since I currently have nothing to add to the market, it would have been a waste of time more than anything.

I wish more builders had this sense of responsibility. Unfortunately with the low cost of entry, well for effects anyways, it is easy to get into this market. The result is alot of builders are just throwing something together with some marketing spin and hoping it will catch on. If it doesn't take no big loss. If it does then they think they will be living in mansions. I guess it is somewhat like the music biz where alot of bands are just thrown together, a bunch of generic songs written and recorded, then they shop around hoping to hit it big. Maybe that mentality transfers over to the effects biz world coming from the "make it big" music world.

I had to think long and hard about if I should get into the market. As a musician above all else I really had to be sure I was going to bring something worth while to the market that someone like me would find useful. I think I have and I hope so will our future products. I must say the feedback we have received from people has helped ease some of my apprehension.

Andrew

[Cliff Schecht]

The guitar amp (and effect) market is already oversaturated. Unless you're introducing some revolutionary feature set or are willing to convince people that you have a better product than the competition, it's a hard market to get into. I was interested in getting into designing high-end tube amps for audiophiles for a good while, until I realized how many people already build these types of devices. Since I currently have nothing to add to the market, it would have been a waste of time more than anything.

I wish more builders had this sense of responsibility. Unfortunately with the low cost of entry, well for effects anyways, it is easy to get into this market. The result is alot of builders are just throwing something together with some marketing spin and hoping it will catch on. If it doesn't take no big loss. If it does then they think they will be living in mansions. I guess it is somewhat like the music biz where alot of bands are just thrown together, a bunch of generic songs written and recorded, then they shop around hoping to hit it big. Maybe that mentality transfers over to the effects biz world coming from the "make it big" music world.

I had to think long and hard about if I should get into the market. As a musician above all else I really had to be sure I was going to bring something worth while to the market that someone like me would find useful. I think I have and I hope so will our future products. I must say the feedback we have received from people has helped ease some of my apprehension.

Andrew

So do you work for somebody or build under a certain name?

My interest, as of now, lays in the high-end studio grade components. At least that's what I want to do in the future. I'm working on some of the products now and these devices will actually be the type of design that "changes the face of music" by allowing for new sonic possibilities. I wouldn't put my name on them otherwise. I'm not big on rehashing other peoples work as my own like so many people seem to do (*looks at people who copy amps using JFET's*). Even the stuff I'm doing at PAiA will hopefully somehow evolve how music sounds and the way people think about making music. I'll let y'all know when these products get released, they're gonna be hella-cool!

Can you tell what I plan on doing with my MSEE degree yet? That's right, nothing!

[DougH]

I wish more builders had this sense of responsibility.

I don't see where this is a matter of "responsibility". Business planning, yes. But "responsibility"??

[DougH]

I wouldn't put my name on them otherwise. I'm not big on rehashing other peoples work as my own like so many people seem to do (*looks at people who copy amps using JFET's*).

Care to elaborate?

[Mark Hammer]

Okay.......let me roll my sleeves up here......no need for an argument.

Cliff, don't mistake the attribution of work to people with the claims of those same people.  It happens all too frequently here that someone will try something or make a suggestion, without any expectation of more than "yeah, that's a cool idea.  I find it as interesting as you do.".  With 10,000+ members, however, names get attached to something, whether you want it to or not, and the impression is created over time that people are somehow making grandiose claims about their work.  DO NOT BE MISLED by that.

Case in point.  I noticed in looking at a bunch of 2nd generation stompbox compressors that what they called an "attack" control was essentially the replacement of a fixed component found in the Dynacomp with a variable component.  I mentioned this as a mod people could do on their Dyna/Ross pedals, and somehow over time it came to be called "the Hammer recovery mod".  It wasn't my idea.  I just copied it from an existing product, and think of it more as something MXR didn't think of rather than something I had thought of.  But since I wrote about it more than other folks, and maybe explained it a little better, it got saddled with my name.

That sort of thing happens more often folks realize.  So, Doug, don't get defensive about Cliff's remarks.  Cliff, don't overinterpret what you THINK you see.  And Mark, get yer nose outta other people's business!

[stm]

I wouldn't put my name on them otherwise. I'm not big on rehashing other peoples work as my own like so many people seem to do (*looks at people who copy amps using JFET's*).

Care to elaborate?

An unfortunate comment, just that.

[DougH]

That sort of thing happens more often folks realize.  So, Doug, don't get defensive about Cliff's remarks.  Cliff, don't overinterpret what you THINK you see.  And Mark, get yer nose outta other people's business!

I appreciate your intent here Mark, but there's no argument (damn text-based communication...). I seriously just wanted to hear Cliff expand on his comment because I just didn't understand it. I didn't know if he meant commercial people rehashing JFET stuff or the fact that the JFET stuff rehashes amp designs, etc. He never mentioned me anyway, so I didn't assume any of it is about me. I was just trying to understand his comment, that's all. There are no hard feelings or anything at all (based on what?) here.  Sorry if I wasn't clear. Peace, love, flowers, butterflies, puppies, kitties, and birdies.

[Mark Hammer]

Peace, love, flowers, butterflies, puppies, kitties, and birdies.

You forgot warm chocolate pudding, gggggghhhhhhhhh (Homer Simpson style),  MMMMM......puuuuuuuuding.

That's me.  Always using a firehose to put out cigarette butts on the sidewalk.

[The Tone God]

I don't see where this is a matter of "responsibility". Business planning, yes. But "responsibility"??

Its a matter of responsibility to oneself. To do well in this, and I suppose any biz, one had to commit alot of resources. Wasting those resources on a fling biz is not one of the best things to do especially in this economy.

Andrew

[DougH]

I hear what you are saying.

[ayayay!]

Unfortunately with the low cost of entry, well for effects anyways, it is easy to get into this market. The result is alot of builders are just throwing something together with some marketing spin and hoping it will catch on. If it doesn't take no big loss. If it does then they think they will be living in mansions. I guess it is somewhat like the music biz where alot of bands are just thrown together, a bunch of generic songs written and recorded, then they shop around hoping to hit it big. Maybe that mentality transfers over to the effects biz world coming from the "make it big" music world. 

True, but it all seems to come out in the wash.  Ultimately, I don't foresee a Microsoft or Ma Bell taking over this whole game, or conversely so many clones that no one wants to buy pedals anymore, so I sleep well. 

I totally forgot they included a pedal with the workhorse amps.  I wouldv'e gotten rid of it first thing anyway.  Not that it's a bad pedal, it's just not me, and the deciding factor for an amp for me is the clean channel anyway.  If the built in distortion channel sounds great, then I guess it's a bonus. 

Maybe just bring back the amp and forget the pedal?   

[R.G.]

I totally forgot they included a pedal with the workhorse amps.  I wouldv'e gotten rid of it first thing anyway.  Not that it's a bad pedal, it's just not me, and the deciding factor for an amp for me is the clean channel anyway.  If the built in distortion channel sounds great, then I guess it's a bonus. 

Maybe just bring back the amp and forget the pedal?   

Yeah - it included a Jekyll and Hyde, but there is no distortion channel. That's one of the points of the amp - the Jekyll&Hyde (or insert your favorite distortion) IS the distortion channel.

It also included a padded cover and the 9Vdc out to run the pedals too, no wall wart needed.

A lot of people did buy the amp and immediately sell off the pedal. That's OK. There can be no disagreement about matters of taste.

[Cliff Schecht]

I wouldn't put my name on them otherwise. I'm not big on rehashing other peoples work as my own like so many people seem to do (*looks at people who copy amps using JFET's*).

Care to elaborate?

An unfortunate comment, just that.

I hope I didn't come off as serious here, I was completely kidding . I should have made that more obvious, I said it because I know a lot of people on these forums have played around with this idea. It was merely a troll, nothing more .

[The Tone God]

So do you work for somebody or build under a certain name?

I work for me and I build under "The Tone God" name. My website is linked in my profile.

Andrew

[audioguy]

Im buying a Workhorse this weekend... whats the best way to record with them? That hub cap is interesting... but how do I mic it?

[Cliff Schecht]

I would guess, to start, set an SM57 at a 45 degree angle to the right or left of the center at less than a foot (I usually set these ON the grill cloth, but you have none). Plus, at 3 feet or so, set a large diaphragm condenser mic straight in front of the amp. Then get a third mic to do ambient room mic'ing.