Author Topic: Vero or perf? Which is better?  (Read 34270 times)

frequencycentral

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Vero or perf? Which is better?
« on: June 19, 2009, 12:38:25 PM »
I think perf. No cut tracks, tight layouts, easier to go from schematic to layout, you're not forced to work in only one plane, you can do stuff below IC sockets. The list goes on...........

What do you think and why? When should I choose vero over perf (not that I ever will!) ?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 12:40:47 PM by frequencycentral »
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Scruffie

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2009, 12:51:33 PM »
Vero, none of those fiddly wires on the bottom to wire up and make sure there all connected nicely and I feel they have more chance of grounding on a case (probably an unfounded feeling), also I find it easier to get a nice neat layout with vero compared to perf (although your work on it I must say is outstanding)

A good drill bit cuts the tracks easily and mirroring the image takes 2 seconds to get a track cut image.

Also I think if your good (not that I am) that you can get a really good tight layout on vero (check out cathexis work, love it)

Vero also feels more like soldering to a PCB to me, just straight in, nice little connection, feels sturdy to me, onlyyy issue with it is bridging 2 tracks, but I've stopped doing that with practice and a slightly better £5 soldering iron.

I've stuffed stuff below IC's on vero, i've even wired some things on the base of it before with no issue.

slacker

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2009, 12:54:45 PM »
Except for using the small mod perf style  area of Moosapotamus's ADA flanger pcb I've never used perf so I can't really say which is better.
I think for small circuits or if you're not pushed for space it probably doesn't make a lot of difference, once you get used to vero it's easy to go straight from schematic to board. If you're careful you can also add components to the rear of the board as well, I've done it a few times without any problems.
For more complicated and larger layouts it seems to me like vero would be easier because the traces mean you have less work to do, because you don't have to make physical connections between everything. With a layout with a lot of ICs you can end up having to use a lot of jumpers though, so that kind of cancels out the advantages.

I guess it's what you're used to, I've only ever used vero so I'm quite happy tackling anything using it, If you're a perfer it's probably the same, and if you've only ever used PCBs they both probably look like way too much work  :)

doitle

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2009, 01:06:48 PM »
I've tried to perfboard three different circuits, all three didn't work. I just can't manage to keep all those small peices of wire correct on the bottom of the board and I also can't keep  my position straight and end up putting components in the wrong places. It's just in general a disaster for me.

I'd like to try out Veroboard but I'm having a lot of trouble finding anywhere in the US to get it. Likewise with Tripad board which looks even cooler. Only Maplin sells it as far as I can see.



Maybe there's something I'm doing wrong in my technique? Am I laying it out too close together? I kow the soldering is a mess but it was much better before I tried to "fix" my mistakes. One thing I read suggested putting more than one component down each hole and twisting them together which would allow you to actually test the circuit to make sure it worked then just solder the joints to make them permanent. I didn't try it on this build but was thinking about it for my next. In short, tips would be great.

doc_drop

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2009, 01:21:19 PM »
A couple of things I do is mark the locations of IC and tranny pins on the back to keep things straight. Also, printing a mirrored image of the layout helps to visualize the back. When worse comes to worse I will insert a wire looking at the front in a pertinent hole, and then I can identify it easily on the back.

I try to build the circuit from left to right. First I solder the lead in the hole it comes through. Then I connect the lead to the next point of connection. Once the connections are all made in one spot I trim the leads.

It helps to have a nice hot pointy soldering iron too.

Check twice, solder once. Then check again. Then mark it on your layout sheet. You have to be slow and methodical.

You really get to know a circuit this way.

jacobyjd

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2009, 01:29:58 PM »
The main difference for me has been moddability (?). Vero ends up being much like a PCB to me, in that I can swap components really easily. With perf, I'm less apt to fiddle once a circuit is complete--the end result always ends up being a lot messier when all is said and done--those long component legs are hard to remove once soldered in!
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aron

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2009, 01:37:36 PM »
If you ever finish and debug your perfboard IMO you will have learned valuable lessons that you can take with you no matter what your next project will be on.

Mark Hammer

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2009, 01:58:41 PM »
Perf - the good:  Cheap, easy to find, works even when you have to cut it into weird shapes, allows for smallest possible footprint easily.
Perf - the bad:  Often VERY cheap, lets components wiggle too much and risk lead fracture, obliges you to use bunching of leads to connects things which produces a clumpier solder joint.

Vero - the good: Stuff is stable once soldered in place, as long as its cleaned soldering is a breeze, solder joints on copper side can be low profile, people can easily post layouts, does not require component s to have long leads to permit inter-connection.
Vero - the bad:  Much less flexibility about where things can be positioned or dimensions of board, generally results in bigger footprint, useful if copper is clean but if not watch out, harder to improvise with, costlier, harder to find.

oldschoolanalog

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2009, 02:18:56 PM »
Unclad perf (no copper).
The "totally blank canvas" aspect is very appealing.
And with careful planning & layout you can swap out components and make it very sturdy.
My $.02...
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jacobyjd

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2009, 02:22:30 PM »
Unclad perf (no copper).
The "totally blank canvas" aspect is very appealing.

I tend to prefer unclad over pad-per board from my experiences, and it's a lot easier to swap parts on it...I just run into trouble when it comes to IC's--anything with short legs seems to be a pain. What do you guys do for IC's, or any other short-legged parts on unclad perf?
Warsaw, Indiana's poetic love rock band: http://www.bellwethermusic.net

doc_drop

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2009, 02:29:55 PM »
I like making sure the componants are fixed in place so I solder the leads to the pads they insert through, so non-copper clad doesn't work for me. I can't imagine the parts are held in place as well if you can't solder them to the pads...

dap9

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2009, 03:08:52 PM »
I finally got around to getting some Vero (got it from this site).  I've always used the pad per hole perf - I like it just fine, but the Vero looks like it's much cleaner.  I just started a project the other night and realized what a PITA all the "prep" work is - cutting the traces, counting holes to make sure yer in the right place.  But it seems that once that's out of the way, it's a good method.  I'll know for sure when I finish the project.

How do you all cut your Vero to size?  I used a box cutter/razor, but didn't like the fact that I had to press the "good" side down against my workbench while repeatedly scoring the board.  Is this my excuse to get a dremmel?

FlyingZ

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2009, 03:12:46 PM »
I like small but it can be quite the pain.


jacobyjd

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2009, 03:16:21 PM »
How do you all cut your Vero to size? 

I generally just use a razor knife--although the vero you can get from Smallbear cuts REALLY hard that way, so if that's what you're using, you may want a dremel :)
Warsaw, Indiana's poetic love rock band: http://www.bellwethermusic.net

frequencycentral

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Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2009, 03:22:55 PM »
Well as we're doing gutshots:

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oldschoolanalog

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frank_p

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2009, 03:38:38 PM »

Anyone ever tried to use wirewrap tool and wire on perf and then solder.  Just wind a couple of turns around the leads, cut and solder ? ( could be advantageous to have firm grip on the leads before soldering and have insulation on a good portion of the wires).  Or it would be more of a PITA that standard perf technique ?  Sometimes I find that perfing is like building boats models in bottles...


jacobyjd

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2009, 03:43:58 PM »
What do you guys do for IC's, or any other short-legged parts on unclad perf?
Sockets anyone?
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 ;)
Yeah, I use sockets--they just don't protrude from the board a whole lot...maybe I'm just not patient enough...it seems almost impossible to get a bent lead to hold still long enough to solder it. Is there a trick to it that I'm missing?
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petemoore

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2009, 04:01:11 PM »
  I put the first corner in after feeding the lead through the board.
  Then I"ll put the second corner in exactly the right place the 2nd time [or preferably the 1rst], and leave the bend so that when I press or pull on the end that's above the board, it pins down the part on the bottom side of the baord.
  Kind of like pliers made from perfboard and a component, the hole being the jaw.
  Grow thumbnail long as heat insulator, fix the easy end [solder in place] of the wire so the thumbnail, pressing on the wire as the thumb holds the board, pushes the hard to position [pre-tinnned]other end to contact at the [also pre-tinned]to be soldered connection. Then it's just get 'em both hot, don't overflex the wire you positioned, mounted, shaped and tinned...get used to the leverage-distance thing  and bend resistance of the wire involved...easy does it makes contact/heat/solder = fine joint.
  For really tough 'inside the keyhole' jobs, the wire itself can heat the pad...takes a while though.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 04:55:29 PM by petemoore »
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FlyingZ

Re: Vero or perf? Which is better?
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2009, 04:01:53 PM »
Well as we're doing gutshots:



Did you clean it or do I need to upgrade my Rad Shack 60/40?