Author Topic: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?  (Read 42644 times)

Electric Warrior

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2010, 08:52:33 AM »

I think if it was used with a Marshall and large cab, you'd find it to have a bit fuller tone!  With some more tweaking I believe the Si 'buzz' might be able to be mitigated some more. Will have to play around with that.
Then again, there's always going back to the Ge model if one desires!!


My Ge mkII sounds way thicker with a 1x12" combo.

GibsonGM

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2010, 10:29:55 PM »
It sounds thicker than a 4x12?

Anyway, I liked the bias pot idea...but generally, I am getting tones out of this similar to early Sabbath/Iron Butterfly.  I have to agree that the Ge trannies are the way to go if you are looking for Zep I sounds!    A really nice, big, fat fuzz, tho!  Pretty cool, it rivals one I custom-modded a couple of years back.
MXR Dist +, TS9/808, Easyvibe, Big Muff Pi, Blues Breaker, Guv'nor.  MOSFace, MOS Boost,  BJT boosts - LPB-2, buffers, Phuncgnosis, FF, Orange Sunshine & others, Bazz Fuss, Tonemender, Little Gem, Orange Squeezer, Ruby Tuby, filters, octaves, trems...

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2010, 10:46:09 PM »
It sounds thicker than a 4x12?

Anyway, I liked the bias pot idea...but generally, I am getting tones out of this similar to early Sabbath/Iron Butterfly.  I have to agree that the Ge trannies are the way to go if you are looking for Zep I sounds!    A really nice, big, fat fuzz, tho!  Pretty cool, it rivals one I custom-modded a couple of years back.
How did you wire it ? per RDVs schematic with a bias pot ?
I just finished trying some more
I actually had to listen to Zep to make sure I was steering towards "that" tone as there are so many great sounds in this pedal.
But I changed Q1 feedback resistor to 1m
Made the 47k on Q2 a 10k,5K bias pot all three of those changes remained.
Today I :
Made the "attack" cap 3.3 uf up from 2.2 or down from 4.7 I tried alot of values here.
Added the 22n between Q2 and Q3 per Dragonfly's build,this knocks down the high end from single coils and my EVJ
Then raised the bias to 7v and used more palm muting in the right places.(this looses alot of the buzzy sound)
This got really,really close to the sound on Zep II but looses some sustain,switching in a 1uf across Q1s collector fixes that but makes it sharper and more modern sounding.

If you havent already try these changes the 1m ,10k,5k bias pot,22n cap,3.3uf cap and also you have to try the 1uf cap across Q1s collector it is so fun to play like that.Especially with a slide (in my time of dying)
The big problem now is deciding if I want to make it the Zep pedal or make it so I can get some of the fatter tones as well, they all sound sweet IMO
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 12:43:16 AM by Brymus »
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Electric Warrior

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2010, 10:48:58 PM »
It sounds thicker than a 4x12?

no, thicker than his clips  ;D


I'm not quite sure how much use the MKII got on Zep I. Probably less than most would think. That Supro combo Page used has very fuzzy overdrive.
This is probably not the right model, but comes very close: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1qN4GixSxg&feature=related
The live video of Dazed and Confused I posted earlier is a much better reference of what an MKII is supposed to sound like.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 10:59:54 PM by Electric Warrior »

GibsonGM

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2010, 05:49:10 PM »
LOL, just wondering about the context, El.War., ha ha.
I'll play around with those changes, Brymus - seems like quite a tweek-able circuit, I like that!
Didn't have any time today to mess around, lots of snow here in the northeast and I had to shovel my roof...aaahhhhhggggg!   It would be cool to kind of get near Page's tone, I grew up on Zep (why I started playing guitar!) and have never been able to get very much in the zone, even with a Les Paul!   But the notes remain the same :o)
MXR Dist +, TS9/808, Easyvibe, Big Muff Pi, Blues Breaker, Guv'nor.  MOSFace, MOS Boost,  BJT boosts - LPB-2, buffers, Phuncgnosis, FF, Orange Sunshine & others, Bazz Fuss, Tonemender, Little Gem, Orange Squeezer, Ruby Tuby, filters, octaves, trems...

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2010, 09:48:52 PM »
I just went at it with fresh ears and I got the same result > tweaking the bias (fuzz) pot by ear I landed at 7v (7.1 actually)
With the other changes being the same,this is the closest I can get it to the original MK II tone on ZepII.
Which when listening to the CD there isnt that much distortion really... his low E sounds pretty clean to me. better palm muting helps clean it up.
SO unless someone comes up with something else I am gonna box mine as is.
One thing to consider is raising the 22n bewteen Q2 and Q3 to 33n or 47n the higher the value the less trebly it is.

I would really like to hear your results Mike.
and anyone elses who have built this pedal (the Si version)
Hopefully I can build a Ge version too in the next couple of months then compare, I only expect the Ge version to be a little smoother.
I will post my version along with more clips in the next couple of days.

Thanks for all the help and feedback guys !!!!!!
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2010, 01:29:02 AM »
Well it took more than a couple of days,but here is how I boxed mine up.
Its my first time using the DYLC (old version) This is how I perfed mine straight off the schematic.
So I got stuck with the filter cap having a jumper to ground  :icon_redface:
I will try to upload some clips and pics soon.(my camera is broke)and I havent had time to record it again.
Take a look at it and let me know what you think,It sounded sharper and brighter once it was perfed - hence the 47n VS a 22n between Q2 and Q3.
I used a 5K "fuzz" pot but I will probably change it for a 10K to allow for some serious "splatty" sounds as well.
I will post some voltages tomorow as well.
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Brymus/Si+Tonbender+MKII+Pro+Zep+Version.gif.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

stratcat

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2010, 02:30:06 PM »
What transistors did you use? If you want a smooth Ge fuzz sound using Si trannies you need to go LOW GAIN ala the axis face.

http://fuzzcentral.ssguitar.com/axisface.php

Anything over 150 hfe  is going to be a silicon buzzsaw (which may be what you want).

Try 2369, 2n2222, BD139 etc.

I've been meaning to build a switchable all SI axis face/MKII which would be the ultimate retro fuzz box.

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2010, 07:51:05 PM »
I tried several including the 2n2222 in the end I used the ones listed on the layout.
I would appreciate some feedback on the layout ,it works as is (mine is a little more compact) but I'm sure it could be better.
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2010, 11:21:23 PM »
OK here is the Porn and a couple of sound clips.
The recording technique is exactly the same as earlier,same amp,guitar,ect.
First a shot of my perf job


The Rayco enclosure -I love these cheapo boxes.


Voltages - Battery > 9.5 v      -Q1- (c)8.58 (b) .745 (e) 0      -Q2- (c)1.8 (b) .7 (e) 75mv     -Q3- (c) 4.5 (b) 1.8 (e) 1.24
And some sound clips -
The first one is my take on that "Zep" tone with the bias set at 7 volts and the "attack" rolled back a little bit,also the "sustain" switch is turned off in this clip.
I listened and played along with the CD and IMO it is pretty freakin close,especially for an Si version.
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Brymus/

The second one is the same BUT with the bias set at 4.5 volts and the attack at full,and the sustain switch turned on.
Listen to how long it sustains at the end.

I marked where the dial is at both 4.5 v and at 7 v on the enclosure so I can set it to both w/o a DMM .
This pedal can go from the "classic" fuzz sound all the way to some seriously mean "metal" type fuzz sounds.
I hope all this documentation will help the next people to try thier hand at building an Si TonebenderMKII Pro

Further more here are the main threads I culled my info from to do my mods-Mac's posts were the real jewels that made this possible.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=71849.0
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=67136.0
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=67136.0
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

GibsonGM

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2010, 07:30:02 PM »
Hey, totally awesome, Bryan!!  I like #1's midrange emphasis (if you could call it that), and #2's 'midscoop'.  They both are really close, I agree, esp. for Si.  Second clip, if the fuzz was turned back, reminds me a lot of the closing note of Dazed & Confused :o) Just enough grit remains to make the sustained note grungy.

I'm going to perf this up soon and see if I can get my LP with Hot Rod Deluxe amp to sound a little more Zeppelinesque! Generally I use a Guv'nor or TS.
Do you also have a schematic you can post? I don't speak perf all that well, lol. 
MXR Dist +, TS9/808, Easyvibe, Big Muff Pi, Blues Breaker, Guv'nor.  MOSFace, MOS Boost,  BJT boosts - LPB-2, buffers, Phuncgnosis, FF, Orange Sunshine & others, Bazz Fuss, Tonemender, Little Gem, Orange Squeezer, Ruby Tuby, filters, octaves, trems...

Quackzed

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2010, 11:30:09 PM »
that sounds sweet.
nothing says forever like a solid block of liquid nails!!!

mac

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2010, 11:59:45 AM »
Nice sounds!
(Why my builds can not look like yours???)

Quote
Further more here are the main threads I culled my info from to do my mods-Mac's posts were the real jewels that made this possible.

Gracias!

mac
mac@mac-pc:~$ sudo apt-get install ECC83 EL84

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2010, 06:04:43 PM »
Thanks for the kind words guys !!!
The sound clips really dont do this pedal justice at all,try it for yourself and see.
GM - The layout I posted IS the schematic.But I will draw a regular one when I have time.

And Mac Thank You - :icon_mrgreen:  With out your posts,sharing info,and help I would have shelved it and been disapointed.
And a compliment from you on my work is like winning a trophy !!! or something,I could only hope to be as skilled at this as you  :icon_redface:
I found your schematic for the MKIII when I was searching for a layout to compare mine to,I will try that one as well.
Again thanks for sharing your work and info.
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

svstee

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2010, 01:40:19 PM »
Just built this and I have a bit of a problem. Used both the Perf and schematic and checked for continuity wherever it should be. No sound at all.

Do you have voltages handy?
Mine are:

Q1
C 8.34
B 0.70
E 0.12

Q2
C 2.00
B 0.74
E 0.07

Q3
C 6.13
B 2.00
E 1.40

Do these look OK? Seem alright to me based on the little I understand about this circuit...

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2010, 04:30:17 PM »
I posted my voltages 4 posts up (the one with the pics in it)
Yours look OK except for Q1's E which should be 0 volts.
Even when playing I still have 0 volts there.
Maybe you have a small short between the base and emitter there ?

To start with leave the sustain switch off (cap across Q1s emitter) ,and bias Q3's collector to 4.5V.
This should be the standard sound.
Turning the "fuzz" pot adjusts the bias of Q3 I marked where 4.5 and 7 volts were on the dial on mine.(these were the two best sounds)
I dont understand the circuit per say,just how and what affects the sound of it (changing values,bias,transistors, ect)
Try comparing the values I used to the ones in RDV's and Dragonfly's (posted earlier in thread)
If its to dark sounding lower C1 (off my layout) from 47n to 33n,22n,or 10n.

Let me know what happens  :icon_biggrin:
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

svstee

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2010, 04:50:16 PM »
Turns out it helps the tone if you DON'T wire then In to the Out and vice versa...  :icon_redface:

Holy excrement, this is the best fuzz I've ever built! Some great tones in here and a massive amount of versatility. Knocks my DAM Meathead, Sili-face, and Jordan Bosstone clean out of the water. Thanks for sharing all your insights and the layout!

Electric Warrior

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2010, 01:23:22 PM »
Turned out the Tone Bender in It Might Get Loud is a 90's reissue: http://stompboxes.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=373&start=470  ;D

azrael

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2010, 04:20:07 PM »
I'm liking the clips I hear. I just built a Tonebender MK II using Germaniums, and it didn't turn out so well.

I've also built Doug Hammond's Hot Silicon, and it sounded pretty cool, but not quite what I was looking for.

I may give this a swing later this week, though.

mac

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2010, 09:57:54 PM »
The problem with Ge is leakage. Get the right leakage and you´ll get a nice pedal, otherwise...
Q1 needs a moderate leakage to sit at around 8v. If too leaky then collector will drop too much and more siganl will hit the FF section which is not good IMHO.
How much leakage? 100uA or so.
Q2 has to be low leakage, below 50uA because a tiny amount of leakage across the 100k sends Q1 collector too close to gnd, making almost impossible to bias Q3.
We say all the time that Q3 needs to be at 4.5v, and never mention where Q2 must sit. I'd say that with a 100k, 0.3v - 0.4v is the sweet spot. In a FF this small gap is 0.4 - 0.6v.
Besides,  low leakage means less variations with temperature.
Q3 can be leaky.

mac
mac@mac-pc:~$ sudo apt-get install ECC83 EL84