Author Topic: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?  (Read 42629 times)

Brymus

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  • Bryan G. - Somewhere in the Mohave Desert USA
"It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« on: December 24, 2009, 09:58:02 PM »
Ok this last week I have watched "It might get loud" (the new BR movie release)(rented) Oh about 5 times....Yeah its late  :icon_redface:
The 5th time with commentary on. Really cool must see for gear junkies. :icon_rolleyes:
ANYwho  In the Page interview in his equipment room,Page talks about meeting Mayer and asking for "more sustain"
And the camera pans to the pedal on top of his amp which looks to be an original Tonebender MKII professional.
So I had the impression that ,that was the original pedal Mayer-modified-built.
But after researching more (and finding really old posts by RG,Gus and Aron at ampage) along with the info at the D*A*M web page.
I dont think that is possible,more likely it was a Hornsby Zonk or MKI ?
I want to build one as close to what Page used as possible (not likely) since the Ge choices are much fewer and scarecer,my knowledge ,ect.
Maybe SmallBear has some IDK..

What is the current consensus on obtaining the early Zep tone? pedal wise ?
And could you please link to the schematic/version  you are refering too?

Since the first two Zep albums were recorded in 69 that should eliminate alot of the copies and revised versions of the Tonebender name.

BUT I am interested in a Si version if someone knows of one that is fairly close in tone.
Searching here I have uncovered RDVs,Dragonfly's versions but the sound clips I heard were far from what I was expecting.

OT Does anyone know what those two identical amps Page was using at "the Summit" were?
The ones sitting on the cabinet with 100 in the top left corner.
And did anyone notice he brought a Hiwatt and an Orange with a Marshall cab? but no Marshall head.

Really cool movie IMO, I am a MUCH MUCH bigger Jack White fan than I was before,and I know how Bo Diddly got his name.
Of Course U2 is my generation,stood in line for hours to get "The Joshua Tree" the first day it was released but "War" is still my Fav.
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Guitar_Ninja

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2009, 11:03:32 PM »
I believe it was a Sola Sounds Tone Bender MKII. He also used a telecaster on Led Zeppelin I, and I think that's a key part of the sound of that album.

Quackzed

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2009, 01:16:01 AM »
and a rather common supro amp...
and his distant mic'ing techniques. distance equals depth!
 


nothing says forever like a solid block of liquid nails!!!

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2009, 06:15:31 AM »
Alright some more digging and I think the Sola Sound MKII Pro is correct - modified by Mayer for more output and mids.
http://guitarplayer.wordpress.com/2007/09/21/led-zeppelin-the-complete-jimmy-page-gear-guide/
Although this site claims a Tele from Jeff Beck was his first "real" guitar and Page said in the movie his mom bought him the 57 tobaco burst prior to the Yardbyrds and it was his first "real" guitar and the one he had wanted for awhile.
So it's hard to know for sure...

OK then It looks like I want to get as close to the Sola Sound Tonebender MKII version as possible and voice it heavey with mids and add some boost.

Any suggestions? Hints ? Links ? Advice ? I know a bunch of you have built Tonebenders....
Here is a good reason/example for building VS buying a pedal.
I started the Si version from Dragonflys layout of the RDV modified version on my breadboard but Santa is coming so it will have to wait.
I plan to hunt some Ge transistors down and do a more authentic version too but it will be Si for now.

I think the "amps" I was wondering about were actually the Cornish modified echoplex units.
And it wouldnt suprise me if his 59 Danaelectro was responsible for some of the recordings that people attribute to the tele...

More detailed questions about building a "Page" Tonebender will come as I progress.
I also read somewhere that Mayer has re-issued a replica of the Tonbender he made for Page anyone know about that?

You probably guessed by now I have been a big Zep fan since puberty.
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Electric Warrior

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2009, 11:13:08 AM »
Somebody asked Roger Mayer and it turned out he didn't modify any Tone Bender for Page. Gary Hurst on the other hand built these for Sola Sound.

A bog standard MKII circuit will do, maybe leave away the cap on the far left, as the earliest units didn't have it:


Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2009, 06:58:08 PM »
Thanx EW nice layout.
Do you remember where you heard/read that quote from Mayer?
Supposedly the info from "it might get loud" was verified before release,as it was meant to be a documentory about the guitar.
Hard to imagine Page would say that if it werent true,but who knows?
Hopefully I can finish breadboarding the Si version tonight.

FWIW I was messing with the 3legged dog last week which morphed on my breadboard into a sort of 3LD/HH variant.
and it does the Physical Graffiti tone quite well,just add a little flange or chorus and wow - Kashmire,The Rover
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Joe Hart

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2009, 08:00:11 PM »
Bryan, what kind of gear are you using to cop the Jimmy Page sound? Guitar? Amp? Etc...?
-Joe Hart

Electric Warrior

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2009, 09:41:55 PM »
Thanx EW nice layout.
Do you remember where you heard/read that quote from Mayer?

Yes, it was the "Page Fuzz"-thread over at the D*A*M forum. Weired thread... The Mayer email must have been the only useful info it contained  :icon_biggrin:

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2009, 12:20:31 AM »
Hey Joe
Uhm I started with a really cheap Gibson/Baldwin LP and a completely tweaked Valve Jr.But my older Jackson Elite does it much better with the same amp.It actually sounds more like an LP than the liscenced version.
The PUs may be too hot though my bridge is 16k8 and the neck 8k7 Duncan HBs .

EW OK thanx I will look over at D*A*M again I missed that e-mail the first time.
That guy has some amazing old pedal photos over there too BTW.
But another site claimed Mayer just/is going to release a Page/Tonebender which doesnt sound likely if he never made him one.
Family came over so didnt get a chanec to finish the Si Bender hopefully mayana.
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Electric Warrior

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2009, 12:55:28 AM »
Well, what would you do after getting that kind of publicity?  ;D
Mayer used to sell a Page Fuzz wich was based on a Maestro Fuzz Tone, but had several modern additions..

Joe Hart

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2009, 11:44:46 AM »
Bryan, for what it's worth impedance has little to do with how hot a pickup is. I'm no expert, but my understanding is that all else being equal, more impedance means more output. But different magnets (strength as well as type), different wire gauge, etc., now throws the impedance = output thing out the window. You may already know that, but I thought I would mention it. Also, I think the "classic" Jimmy Page tone is a Telecaster through a Tone Bender into a little Supro amp. And a TON of "extraneous" knob twiddling (different recording techniques, EQ-ing, layering, and whatever other "majick" he wove!).
-Joe Hart

Electric Warrior

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2009, 12:16:18 PM »
You might wanna throw in a grey Vox wah as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T12wRBAhcTY

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2009, 05:05:25 PM »
Hey Joe IDK that about PUs I thought the impedence was directly related to output,I tried my Strat clone its a little closer to tele sound than the Jackson.Sounded closer too.

EW dont have a wah cant afford one right now maybe later.

I got both SI vesions breadboarded and the RDV version worked straight away with the posted values but didnt bias to 4.5- 3.9 was the best I could get without changing components.
Same with Dragonflys verson I had a hard time with it,It oscillates at max attack with the 10uf cap so I went with the 4u7.
Both definetly have that "RUDE" tone Page was talking about.
In fact they both sounded really close to his pedal he was playing in his gear room,so the tone IS there just needs a little tweaking.
I found Dragonflys to be darker and more "splatty" using the posted values.

I swapped the 5k6 on Q3 for a 10k pot and presto I was able to dial in a much smoother sound,and get the 4.5 bias that is recomended.
I will try to get some more done today time permiting.

Hey Joe I was trying to refind the schems I used and found your thread here
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=71849.0
This is almost the exact voltages I was getting,and I am using the same schematic from RDV too.
So more reading and twiddling...
Here are the two versions I am working on if I need to remove them from my PB page just let me know IDK how to make them show up otherwise

« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 05:08:31 PM by Brymus »
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Brymus

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  • Bryan G. - Somewhere in the Mohave Desert USA
Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2009, 05:15:15 PM »
You might wanna throw in a grey Vox wah as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T12wRBAhcTY
WOW what an awsome vid should be called "how to use a bow 101"
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Electric Warrior

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2009, 05:20:06 PM »

I swapped the 5k6 on Q3 for a 10k pot and presto I was able to dial in a much smoother sound,and get the 4.5 bias that is recomended.
I will try to get some more done today time permiting.


Actually 7.5 to 9.1 volts bias is recommended.
http://stompboxes.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3229&hilit=room+temperature&start=10
don't know if it works for the silicon version as well.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 05:23:07 PM by Electric Warrior »

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2009, 07:27:33 PM »
Using the tips from Gus and Mac http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=71849.0
I am getting one of the best sounding FF type tones of all the Si versions I have tried.
Albiet its starting to sound more modern but still really nice tones in there.
More to come.
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2009, 01:03:19 AM »
I think I have it as close as I can get without some different transistors.
I used RDVs schematic.
After lots of part swapping...I
Used Gus' advice and changed and the 47k on Q2s C to 10k,and changed the feedback resistor on Q1 to 1m from 470k.
Used Macs advice and bypassed the 2k7 resistor on Q1s E with a 1uf cap (major sustain).
I replaced the 5k6 resistor on Q3s C with a 5k pot,I'm going to call this one fuzz.
This gives me usable tones through most of the sweep,the best ones from 4.5V - 7V .
I will try to get some sound clips and post the voltages tommorow :)
All in all I think it sounds really close to what Page was getting in his gear room with his MKII pro.

FWIW  I found using 2 old 9V batts in series (15.5V) yeilded a really cool fuzz lots of gain and the Fuzz knob wouldnt get "splatty"
when turned down.

I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

sean k

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2009, 03:16:29 AM »
I gotta bunch of Mullard OC81's if your interested and I can spare three. What hfe's you want for a tonebender. I did one a few years ago and sold it as it seemed to be a pretty bog standard warmish distortion...not even fuzzy, just kinda almost tubey. 

mac

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2009, 08:28:13 AM »
Quote
Used Macs advice and bypassed the 2k7 resistor on Q1s E with a 1uf cap (major sustain).

The sound of q1 and the sustain... mmhh gain of the pedal change a lot when you set bias from 6.5v to 8.5v. You could hear the difference by taking the output from q1.
 
When I experimented with Ge transistors I noticed that even with some leaky ones, say 200-300uA, q1 bias had a 7.5v floor.
I do not have data on the OC75s used on TBs but I bet they were not that leaky, ie higher collector voltage. That´s why I suggest using a 1M to 1M2 feedback resistor depending on hfe, and no emiter resistor at q1 (or 100 ohm for high gain Si).
I built mine with a Ge biased at 8.2v and it has a big amount of gain, I have to set fuzz pot close to min and reduce guitar volume to get Page tones. Or use my 3 knob TB :).

BTW, iirc Page never talked much about his gear. So probably he used a strat, a tube screamer and a Bassman 59 :)

mac
mac@mac-pc:~$ sudo apt-get install ECC83 EL84

jrod

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2009, 10:07:32 AM »
Hey Electric Warrior...Thanks for the layout and bias info. In your experience, what hfe's do you like?

I built a MKII with OC75s and did not like it too much. I ended using some Japanese 2sb175s. The OC75s were slightly gated no matter how well they were biased. Hfe for OC75s are around 75 - 85 - 120.

Like Mac said, I am not getting a Page type tone unless I turn down the gain knob and roll back the guitar volume a bit. I'm playing a strat, Valco amp, and TBMKII.

Brymus, if you build the Si version you posted by Dragonfly, let us know how it turns out. I am very curious about those!

Anyhoo, I've got to see this documentary. Thanks for info!