What PCB layout program do you use?

[01370022]

I've been using Protel autotrax for a while now, but I recently did up some SMD designs (mainly due to a large design that I needed to shrink, and just to get some experience). Due to my inefficient layout techniques, when I came to panelise them onto one larger PCB to get them made up, I found autotrax had a hissy fit and told me it was out of memory. I played around with some of the program settings in windows and such (I'm running XP for those who are interested) but couldn't seem to fix the prob, leading me to believe that it is a limitation of the program.

I'll probably just redesign my PCBs to take up less memory to get this batch done, but it got me thinking about other programs out there. So what I want to know is what program do you use/have found best?

I'm looking for the pros and cons to each, so if you think that xxx layout program is the best thing ever, can you please give your reasons.

I've only seriously used Protel autotrax (so my knowledge of what can be done is a bit limited), but here's my findings

Pros
-Simple to use, and once you get used to the arcane keyboard commands is fairly intuitve
-Can use both keyboard and mouse to route tracks (I'm on a laptop with just a touchpad, so I find text commands easier)
-Does all the basics well
-Fairly easy to create new footprints
-FREE!!
-can work to a netlist, but not essential.
-Outputs to gerber, possible to create large boards and no pin/component limit

Cons
-It's a fairly basic
-Like any DOS program, it does exactly what you tell it to (very few safety nets)
-Editing footprints can be a PITA
-doesn't support odd board shapes (I think, correct me if I'm wrong)
-This damn memory problem with complex boards
-Arcane menu settings take a while to learn
-Doing odd shaped copper fills is difficult

[mth5044]

I used DIYLayout (the first version) for a long time. I use ExpressPCB and SCH now. The pro's and con's will be relative to my experience.

DIYLayout

Pro's
- Easy for beginners to use
- Easy to get PnP file
- Easy to find component library
- There is a website with a lot of layouts already
- You can do vero, perf or PCB

Con's
- Limited memory (in a PT2399 layout, by the end, it was working very slowly and crashed a few times)
- Difficult to change parameters like trace size, hole size, etc. May be easy when you find it, but I don't think I ever did
- Hard to move things around/find holes that you layed, as sometimes they don't appear red/highlighted.


ExpressPCB

Pro's
- Very fast
- Easy to move things around
- You can link up a schematic you make in ExpressSCH to the layout
- A lot more things you can do with it, as it isn't geared only to effects makers (like dual sided boards, etc)
- You can order a board right off the program
- Has a really big parts library
- Easy to make your own component and save it in the library

Con's
- Sometimes the parts library is a bit too big and it can be hard to find some things
- Ordering a board from it is expensive


That's what I could think of in the last couple minutes.

[davent]

I've used ExpressPCB for years and it was very easy to learn, it's free and there are custom parts libraries around on the web if you want to get into tubes and don't want to create your own components. http://www.expresspcb.com/

dave

[pjwhite]

I use a real old version of Tango PCB and also PCAD 2000.  I've been using Tango for 20 years or more (!) and have gotten comfortable with all the keyboard shortcuts and can do layouts pretty fast.  The only real drawback is that it produces Gerber files without the embedded aperture information, so I have to provide a separate aperture list to the board house.  They don't seem to mind, so it's not really a big deal.

PCAD 2000, which is better in some ways, is frustrating in others.  I don't like the user interface, which seems to require a lot of unnecessary mouse clicks and menus where I would rather have a keyboard shortcut.

[cloudscapes]

I'm using DipTrace. cant remember why I started using it. anyways its pretty intuitive. I got more done on my first hour of it than on my first few of expresspcb. personal preference I guess.

pros:
dunno. I havent really tried others so I cant compare. it's pretty intuitive
really easy to make new custom parts. takes a minute and a half

cons:
bad UI design decisions that sometimes hurt the flow of work. I often ask myself "now why did they decide to make this window or feature work like THIS?" usually minor nitpicks.

[G. Hoffman]

I too use ExpressPCB, but I have no experience with anything else. 

As has been said, if you order just a few boards, they can be pretty pricey.  They aren't TOO bad, if you don't mind your boards being (exactly) 3.5X2.8 inches, don't mind skipping the solder resist.  $51 (plus shipping) for 3 boards.  I've done this twice, myself, and the boards are sure nicer to work with than my DIY boards!  It could just be that I didn't have to drill them, though!  It's not cheap, but for a two sided board, it is a lot cheaper than my time if I tried to do it myself.  Their prices also don't seem too bad to me if you order a whole bunch of boards (dozens or more), but then I don't a frame of reference.

It is pretty easy to use it for DIY boards, though.  It lets you print one layer at a time, so I just do everything on the bottom layer, and print to P'N'P Blue.  Works great, at least for me.

Oh, and the interface is easy for me, though I wish I could change some of the shortcuts to match the other CAD program I use (Vectorworks).  I keep pressing the wrong button to reselect my cursor!


Gabriel

[G. Hoffman]

Oh, and don't I remember that Autotrax's free version has a limit on the number of (something) you can have, but that you can buy an upgrade to free up those restrictions?  I know I read there is one brand of PCB software that has several versions for different types of user.


Gabriel

[Steve Mavronis]

With ExpressPCB do you have to use their board making service? I mean can you save your work as an image file or print the PCB Layout in case you want to make your own PCB boards?

My dad designs and makes his own circuit boards at work, and at home, so I could have him make any custom circuit board I want or teach me how to do it myself using his setup. He suggested I use his old Protel PCB/Schematic Advanced Design software (not Autotrax) but it's like from 1998 and I'd rather use something newer that will work under Windows Vista.

Right now I'm just using the DIY Layout Creator beta.

[01370022]

Yeah, expressPCB forces you to get them to make your board cos their program doesn't output gerber files. That and the board size limit on the free version keep me from using it. Great business plan, lousy for customers IMO.

Has anyone used FreePCB? I was having a look at it last night and would be keen to hear peoples opinion on it

[bean]

Eagle is where it's at. Learning curve is not bad, and there is already a library of components available which is tailored for stompbox creation (gaussmarkov). The free version gives you enough features to do almost any single or double-sided DIY pcb. And, it outputs Gerber files. Some manufacturers accept the native Eagle .brd file as well.

Do it 

[G. Hoffman]

With ExpressPCB do you have to use their board making service? I mean can you save your work as an image file or print the PCB Layout in case you want to make your own PCB boards?

My dad designs and makes his own circuit boards at work, and at home, so I could have him make any custom circuit board I want or teach me how to do it myself using his setup. He suggested I use his old Protel PCB/Schematic Advanced Design software (not Autotrax) but it's like from 1998 and I'd rather use something newer that will work under Windows Vista.

Right now I'm just using the DIY Layout Creator beta.

You can absolutely print an actual size version of your board from Express PCB.  There are some limitations, but for single sided boards with DIP and through hole parts, it works great! 

Your copper side is the back side of the board, but it prints as though you are looking at it from the front side, so when you transfer it to copper it comes out perfect.  I do the print up a copy on paper, tape on a piece of PnP Blue a little bigger than the board, and print again thing (since the PnP is so darned expensive).  I always draw and print my layouts on what they call the "backside" layer, but that's just what I'm used to doing.  You could use their "topside" layer as well, because when you print it it will still be right for the back side of the board. 

As for limitations: 1) you can't use it for two sided boards without buying it from them (well, not easily at least - you could redraw the top side backwards in a second window, but at that point it seems worth it to buy something better);  2)SMD parts are a real PITA, and require you to place the part on the back side of the board, or draw your board backwards - however, their library does included a number of standard SMD parts that are already drawn for both the front and rear of the board.  If your like me, you hate soldering SMD parts, and you try to avoid double sided boards wherever possible, so neither of these matter too much! 

I'm sure there are other limitations, but those are the only ones that come to mind at the moment.  And sure, if you want commercially made boards you need to use their service - what do you expect from a free program!  It's their advertising, and I'm guessing it is very effective.  All the other free programs I know of (at least, all the other free programs that are professionally programed) place limitations on the size of board, or the number of components you can use, or something similar.  Express PCB doesn't have any of that.  And for a free program it is really quite powerful.  I don't have experience with any other programs, but it has worked well for me to learn on.  The fact that my layouts are kind of mediocre is just a matter of my skill level, not any kind of problem with the program!


Gabriel

[Steve Mavronis]

Thanks above for the in depth ExpressPCB explanation of its limitations, etc.

I really hope for a new post-beta version of the DIY Layout Creator with a bigger parts library and the ability to add custom made parts and share them online. Also copy and paste needs to be improved beyond working with one part at a time. If you try to select a PCB layout of connected parts and paste it, the whole selection stretches and distorts when you try to drag it to a new location. But I really do like the look of the DIYLC program's layout better with its semi-realistic components on the PCB board instead of basic part outline shapes like used in other programs. It's also a very cool way of illustrating what the finished board would look like to the naked eye.

Which programs support linking schematics to PCB layouts and/or auto-generating schematic to PCB and vice versa?

[G. Hoffman]

Thanks above for the in depth ExpressPCB explanation of its limitations, etc.

I really hope for a new post-beta version of the DIY Layout Creator with a bigger parts library and the ability to add custom made parts and share them online. Also copy and paste needs to be improved beyond working with one part at a time. If you try to select a PCB layout of connected parts and paste it, the whole selection stretches and distorts when you try to drag it to a new location. But I really do like the look of the DIYLC program's layout better with its semi-realistic components on the PCB board instead of basic part outline shapes like used in other programs. It's also a very cool way of illustrating what the finished board would look like to the naked eye.

Which programs support linking schematics to PCB layouts and/or auto-generating schematic to PCB and vice versa?

Express PCB and SCH link together.

I don't want to sound like I'm over selling it.  It's the only one I've used, but I have figured out how to do what I want to do with it.


Gabriel

[dschwartz]

I´ve tried various PCB softwares, first, i tried Eagle, of course i couldn´t even make a board.. too complex for a newbie at the time...
Then, tried DIY layout..great for stripboards..but lousy for PCB´s, i had to put each pad on every part..too slow..great for simple circuits though.
Then, tried PCB express, a little easier than eagle, but as stated before, too many parts library, hard to edit the models, and i couldnt figure out how to export the PCB image decently...
Then, went to PCB wizard..easy as a breeze to work with..Library sucks big time, and you can´t edit your own parts or even find more libraries..if you don´t care about big pcb´s, with common parts, this is a very good choice.

went back to eagle, assuming that i got some experience after making a couple dozen PCB´s designs. I understood the work scheme,..schematic, then, PCB..but i absolutely hated the limitations of consistency between both views..For example, if i wanted a dc jack mounted on PCB, i had to add it on the schem..or a switch..but what if the switch size is not on the library? . I couldn´t make free-style drawing, or adding pads or even adding jumpers were a PITA!..of course, for someone more experienced maybe these problems are very simple to solve..but i got bored after 2 weeks of fighting with the very non user friendly interface....

finally, i found Sprint layout..it feels as professional as eagle, you get gerber files, single layer edit etc. But the GUI is very frendly and intuitive (Ctrl-c, ctrl-v, ctrl-z, etc). Its library is nothing to writhe home about, but i was very happy to find that you can take a model, edit it, and save it as a different model.. I could even save subcircuits layouts  like building blocks for later use (like eq´s, power supplies, inverting opamp, etc)...Even better! you can draw and save a box shape in a layer, and use it to be shure the pcb will fit in there..I drew my own 3pdt´s siwtches, jacks, special sized resistors, etc. Finally, i stuck with it..

Sprint layout
pro´s:
- easy GUI
- intuive
- you can make your own library of whatever you want (like 9 pin dip sockets or 4 pins pots, whatever)
- has autotrace
- easy to export gerber and PCB image/pdf s
con´s:
- is not eagle
- does not support schematics (i use ltspice for that)
- not compatible with other PCB softwares

[Fuzz Aldryn]

+1 for Sprint Layout. Easy to understand, easy to use but professionell results.

[G. Hoffman]

or even adding jumpers were a PITA!..

That reminds me of a trick in ExpressPCB.  If you are making a one layer board, you are going to be in the two layer board mode, since it's either that or four layer mode.  When you start up the program, set the default Via size to what ever you want for your jumpers (I go with .029 or .035).  Then, when you are drawing your trace on the "bottom" layer, switch to the "top" layer by pressing "L".  Draw your jumper, and switch back to the "bottom" layer.  It will automatically put in your jumpers.

And you don't export from Express PCB, you print from the program to your toner transfer media or choice (or, I suppose, a transparency if you are doing a photoresist process).  I've tried exporting a couple different ways, but the size always ends up wrong.  If you just print, it comes out right.


Gabriel

[.Mike]

I use a PDF printer driver for ExpressPCB so the files can be easily shared, and printed accurately by anyone who decides to use them.

It's a good program, but with a few bugs. I spent all day on a layout only to realize I had dragged a few components to a part of the screen, and that the program wouldn't allow me to grab and move/delete them. I had to start over. Boo! But... the price is right... heh.



Mike

[G. Hoffman]

I use a PDF printer driver for ExpressPCB so the files can be easily shared, and printed accurately by anyone who decides to use them.

It's a good program, but with a few bugs. I spent all day on a layout only to realize I had dragged a few components to a part of the screen, and that the program wouldn't allow me to grab and move/delete them. I had to start over. Boo! But... the price is right... heh.



Mike

What PDF program?  I use Cute PDF, and when I try printing them for real they come out wrong, even if I tell it not to fit to the page.


Gabriel

[davent]

I use Bullzip PDF Printer and it usually comes out fine when printing from ExpressPCB.

dave

[John Lyons]

I use CutePDF and EpressPCB and have no problems.