Author Topic: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!  (Read 136386 times)

Ry

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Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2011, 12:07:27 AM »
Quote
And you guys do know that within a week of you getting one running, there will be three new effects companies with their Lugwig Phase II clones on the internet, right?  Complete with hand wired, point to point controls, NOS carbon comp resistors and hand matched NOS (and probably germanium!) transistors, and a pre-charged waiting list, on a new web site that has  - well, unusual   - theories about sound and how it is made.
 

While this may sound funny, I remember emailing a few of the then-rare boutique pedal dealers looking for information and/or leads on one of these back in 2001.  He made it quite clear that he would be interested in distributing an updated version of this.  While this is neither good or bad, it is a fact and it will happen.

wavley

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2011, 09:26:25 AM »
Quote
It would somewhere between maybe and probably work. A lot depends on how much current the thing draws. They only use 100uF for the first filter cap, so it can't be all that much. And they have 100 ohms in series in front of the regulator transistor. If it were me, I'd use a charge pump running from 9V to get 40+V and then regulate, probably with the circuit that's already on the board. 9V is a lot more common.

Well, if you can get 40v out of 9v then I am completely behind a charge pump, I'm not fond of running ac cords all over my pedalboard for a multitude of reasons.  I was just trying to avoid another wall wart, but even if it has to go that way it's a small trade off for such an awesome pedal... I'm a sucker for overly large/overly complicated effects.  I was under the impression that it was pushing the limits of charge pump, mostly because I haven't really used them.  I mostly just work with 9v pedals, tube amps, and ac powered old stuff.
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Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2011, 11:37:08 AM »
While this may sound funny, I remember emailing a few of the then-rare boutique pedal dealers looking for information and/or leads on one of these back in 2001.  He made it quite clear that he would be interested in distributing an updated version of this.  While this is neither good or bad, it is a fact and it will happen.
I'm sure it will. I'm a little surprised it didn't when I posted the combined schematics on GEO back when. I guess some clones need more spoon feeding than others.

What's funny is that this thing can be built much more compactly and economically today. Those filters can be replaced with a single IC (a 13700) each, and the switch/trajectory/formant stuff can be done much more economically other ways today as well. On the list of "I gotta do that some day" is making a wah pedal with dual filters and switchable "trajectories" although I didn't call them that in my head, that can be an ordinary wah, a reverse wah, an "animator", and a vowel wah depending on the switch setting. You get all that out of an 8 pin PIC and two LM13700s. But it does take more design work than cloning an existing PCB, so I'd expect the clones to roll in.

Well, if you can get 40v out of 9v then I am completely behind a charge pump, I'm not fond of running ac cords all over my pedalboard for a multitude of reasons.  I was just trying to avoid another wall wart, but even if it has to go that way it's a small trade off for such an awesome pedal... I'm a sucker for overly large/overly complicated effects.  I was under the impression that it was pushing the limits of charge pump, mostly because I haven't really used them.  I mostly just work with 9v pedals, tube amps, and ac powered old stuff.
Pretty much you can get whatever voltage out of whatever voltage if you're willing to work hard enough at it. I saw a design once that got 400V out of a CMOS logic package running on 18V using only diodes and caps.  The limits are pretty much that you lose some power as waste heat at every step, and you're also limited as to the total power that the low voltage can supply and that the multiplier parts can handle. 

The first law of thermodynamics says that you can never get out more power than you put into any process. The second law says you can't even do that well, and you'll always have some losses. So if you want 45V out and have 9V to work with, the first law says you can never do better than needing five times as much current from 9V as you get out at 45V. The second law says it will be worse than that, and that you'll get out less power (volts times amps) on the "45V" output than you put in at 9V. How much less depends on how clever you are and how good/fast/non-lossy your process is for up-verting.  This is one reason for transformers. Transformers do a remarkably wide range of 'verting' at a remarkably lower set of losses than any other practical process.
R.G.

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pinkjimiphoton

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2011, 11:56:36 AM »
is there any way that we can prevent some nefarious profit mongers from stealing the work being done here? i mean, we can't copywrite the circuit or anything i'd imagine...
i mean stealing work here would be unethical, but would it be illegal? should we maybe ask aaron to move this thread to the member's only part of the forum or something?

i really wanna see this thing live again, but it'd be a shame for all the peeps who are doing the research and legwork to get screwed (again, as i'm sure has happened myriad times) just so some scumbag can steal these efforts to sell the damn thing off for profit. i mean...to me? build one for yourself, build a couple for friends, maybe sell one to cover the expense is legit...but doing it to make cake is wrong, at least imho.... sorry for the rant.
listen loud. blaze one first:
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R.G.

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2011, 12:12:50 PM »
is there any way that we can prevent some nefarious profit mongers from stealing the work being done here? i mean, we can't copywrite the circuit or anything i'd imagine...
i mean stealing work here would be unethical, but would it be illegal? should we maybe ask aaron to move this thread to the member's only part of the forum or something?
There is nothing you can do about it. In fact, a copier would point out - correctly! - that the circuit was come up with by Ludwig, and that this effort is no better or worse legally than what they would do. And copyright protects an expression, not a circuit. If it's not patented, it's fair game for anyone. It's not illegal. And as I've noticed, no one thinks grabbing a circuit off the internet is even unethical - until it's their work that is being copied. It takes only a very short time after a bit of work is copied until the original developer becomes a believer in intellectual property, on average.  :icon_biggrin:

Here's another bit of reality - even if it were flatly illegal, no part of the justice system would enforce it. It's too small-potatoes and not politically newsworthy enough to do.  Sorry, but them's the facts.

Quote
i really wanna see this thing live again, but it'd be a shame for all the peeps who are doing the research and legwork to get screwed (again, as i'm sure has happened myriad times) just so some scumbag can steal these efforts to sell the damn thing off for profit. i mean...to me? build one for yourself, build a couple for friends, maybe sell one to cover the expense is legit...but doing it to make cake is wrong, at least imho.... sorry for the rant.
Take your satisfaction out of having rescued an interesting thing for posterity. The cat is already out of the bag as far as copying is concerned, as the circuits were on the internet long ago, and now that the PCB trial layouts have appeared here, they are already saved in zillions of hard drives around the world.

Again, sorry, but them's the facts. It would take a pretty good nuclear war to erase the data that's already passed here.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 12:16:13 PM by R.G. »
R.G.

Quick IQ Test: If anyone in a governmental position suspected that YOU had top-secret information on YOUR computer, how many minutes would you remain outside a jail cell?

pinkjimiphoton

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #85 on: May 12, 2011, 03:30:57 PM »
it's all good, R.G.  the important thing, is it looks like in time, this thing will ride again!  :thu:

this is gonna be a humongous project for me to try to do, when i can afford the parts...i think the most complex thing i've built so far is a fuzz.
but the spirit's willing, and i've gotta learn somehow.
;)
listen loud. blaze one first:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMJxNNgY3_yc0JNd0VqdmNIWEk

I stand for Truth, Justice, and the American Way. @#$% TRUMP! YOU ARE EITHER ANTI FASCIST, OR YOU ARE ONE. #BLM

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Jazznoise

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2011, 03:53:34 PM »
Personnaly I'd be delighted to see some cheeky schematic "theif" rob this PCB, hopefully they'd miniaturise it and makes it for cheap too!

 It's a great sounding and very interesting pedal, I'm interested in hearing what people can do with it more than anything else. I'm sort of a spectator in this (It's way above my head and would eat into my going to Japan money - no doubt I'll find clones there!) Take it on the chin, unless you want to spend your life making these yourself  :icon_lol:

We will unearth and generate more incredible effects here before we're done, I'm sure.
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Morocotopo

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2011, 06:08:24 PM »
Guys, great work! I applaud you for the effort in remaking this thing. Now, why is there so much excitement? I mean, since apparently very few of them were made, how many of you have heard it in person? Could someone describe what it does, and/or point to a recording of it? Someone posted a Sonic Youth thing, but I didnīt hear anything special there...

Also, wouldnīt it be interesting to dissect the schem as to see how it works, to make, as R.G. said, a modern-parts equivalent?

Yeah, I know itīs easy to talk while others work. My excuse to do all talk and no work is that my knowledge of schems is, mm, limited.  :P
Morocotopo

pinkjimiphoton

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2011, 06:21:13 PM »
i owned one from 77-82. it's not hype. you can make your guitar damn near talk with it. phonemes, fuzz, killer phaser, wahs of many flavors, and you can use it to drive voltage controlled filters and oscillators on analog synths and modules.
it is sick.
NOTHING i have ever played thru sounds the same, and i've owned just about everything in the last 42 years i've been playing music.

to describe the sound is hard, cuz there are soooooooo many possibilities. the yoy sound is hip, that's in the clip and is the phaser modulating the vowel part of the wah circuit.
but there's more. the vowel wah is mighty close to aaaaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyoooooooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuu sounding, and it is a RUDE fuzztone that is hard to describe. man...sad so few were built, it's hard to try and describe as trying to describe the smell of purple.
listen loud. blaze one first:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMJxNNgY3_yc0JNd0VqdmNIWEk

I stand for Truth, Justice, and the American Way. @#$% TRUMP! YOU ARE EITHER ANTI FASCIST, OR YOU ARE ONE. #BLM

#FuzzyGoodness

digi2t

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Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2011, 07:18:50 PM »
I've been trying to track down equivilant numbers for the trannies, but it's like hen's teeth. I looked up 43121, and nada, zero, ziltch.

On the other hand, I have found one for 1500$. I'm considering buy it, but I just plunked down a wad of cash last week for a GT-PRO, and a Geiger Counter tonight.

It sucks, cuz I'd love to breadbard this sucker, but my life is packed in boxes right now, for god knows how long. :-[ >:( :-[
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R.G.

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2011, 07:27:12 PM »
I've been trying to track down equivilant numbers for the trannies, but it's like hen's teeth. I looked up 43121, and nada, zero, ziltch.
You probably won't find anything on them. They're probably house numbered devices; ordinary devices bought in large quantities by the manufacturer stamped with their own unique number.

No worries. It is very likely that they can all be subbed by 2N3904/3906 or other common transistors.
R.G.

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Keppy

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2011, 08:45:00 PM »
this is gonna be a humongous project for me to try to do, when i can afford the parts...i think the most complex thing i've built so far is a fuzz.

Funny thing is, even if you build it, the most complex thing you've built will STILL be a fuzz.   ;D

Personally, I'm hoping we eventually come up with an IC version like RG keeps talking about. Even after going through the schematic and layouts several times, though, I still have no idea how this thing actually works, as my understanding of transistors is fairly pathetic at this point. That's why I did the layouts, actually -- it was the one part of this project that I could readily contribute to. I'd be willing to tackle a layout for a modern version as well, but I'm nowhere near able to actually design the circuit.

This will all be easier, though, after someone builds the "original" version and verifies the switching scheme (and possibly transistor substitutions). Who's doing it?
"Electrons go where I tell them to go." - wavley

Keppy

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2011, 09:13:46 PM »
I've been trying to track down equivilant numbers for the trannies, but it's like hen's teeth. I looked up 43121, and nada, zero, ziltch.

2N2646 datasheet here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/2/N/2/6/2N2646.shtml

Here's a thread about the 43121: http://www.electro-tech-online.com/datasheets-manuals-parts/94334-help-finding-obsolete-motorola-43121-transistor.html
and another match: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43120.shtml

43045 & 43054 are mentioned on the second-to-last page here: http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Amplifiers/Service%20Manual/EV%201144A%20Service%20Data.pdf
and here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43040.shtml

43173, 43174, 43175 & 43176 datasheets here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43160.shtml

"Electrons go where I tell them to go." - wavley

digi2t

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Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2011, 07:39:02 AM »
I've been trying to track down equivilant numbers for the trannies, but it's like hen's teeth. I looked up 43121, and nada, zero, ziltch.

2N2646 datasheet here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/2/N/2/6/2N2646.shtml

Here's a thread about the 43121: http://www.electro-tech-online.com/datasheets-manuals-parts/94334-help-finding-obsolete-motorola-43121-transistor.html
and another match: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43120.shtml

43045 & 43054 are mentioned on the second-to-last page here: http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Amplifiers/Service%20Manual/EV%201144A%20Service%20Data.pdf
and here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43040.shtml

43173, 43174, 43175 & 43176 datasheets here: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/catalog/p43160.shtml



Keppy.... what can I say, you're the man. Guess I was looking in all the wrong places.

Cheers,
Dino
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pinkjimiphoton

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2011, 09:46:30 PM »
awesome, awesome work, guys!!!!!!!!!!

you rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
listen loud. blaze one first:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMJxNNgY3_yc0JNd0VqdmNIWEk

I stand for Truth, Justice, and the American Way. @#$% TRUMP! YOU ARE EITHER ANTI FASCIST, OR YOU ARE ONE. #BLM

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pinkjimiphoton

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #95 on: May 14, 2011, 10:43:55 AM »
if i paid for the expense of making and shipping a pcb for this so i can try and build it, could anybody help me out?
i think it's a little too complex for me to try and veroboard it.

thanks!!
listen loud. blaze one first:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMJxNNgY3_yc0JNd0VqdmNIWEk

I stand for Truth, Justice, and the American Way. @#$% TRUMP! YOU ARE EITHER ANTI FASCIST, OR YOU ARE ONE. #BLM

#FuzzyGoodness

wavley

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2011, 06:34:02 PM »
if i paid for the expense of making and shipping a pcb for this so i can try and build it, could anybody help me out?
i think it's a little too complex for me to try and veroboard it.

thanks!!

I'm in on that.
New and exciting innovations in current technology!

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Keppy

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #97 on: May 14, 2011, 07:53:33 PM »
if i paid for the expense of making and shipping a pcb for this so i can try and build it, could anybody help me out?
i think it's a little too complex for me to try and veroboard it.

thanks!!

Yeah, I learned pretty quickly that this layout is not on any kind of grid, totally wrong for vero.


I'm in on that.

Do you mean you want a PCB, or you're willing to make one? If you guys want boards, I could probably whip some up. Are you in the US, Jimi?

Please note that the boards I have are only 3" x 5", so I'm unable to scale up the spacing on the layouts for .4" resistor leads. If you're cool with .3", I can do it. Are you guys just going to socket all the transistors so you can see what works, or do you have a source for the original parts?
"Electrons go where I tell them to go." - wavley

pinkjimiphoton

Re: someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2011, 07:56:56 PM »
hi keppy,
yah, i'm in the us, in connecticut.
i don't mind a shorter spacing, can always stand resistors etc up. i would really appreciate it!
about how much would you need bro?
thanks!! :thu:
listen loud. blaze one first:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMJxNNgY3_yc0JNd0VqdmNIWEk

I stand for Truth, Justice, and the American Way. @#$% TRUMP! YOU ARE EITHER ANTI FASCIST, OR YOU ARE ONE. #BLM

#FuzzyGoodness

Keppy

CORRECTIONS
« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2011, 08:47:22 PM »
hi keppy,
yah, i'm in the us, in connecticut.
i don't mind a shorter spacing, can always stand resistors etc up. i would really appreciate it!
about how much would you need bro?
thanks!! :thu:

I'd say about $15 should do it. I use photosensitized boards, and it will take 3 of them to do two sets of boards for the Phase II. However...

I WILL NOT SELL ANY OF THESE BOARDS UNTIL SOMEONE ELSE CHECKS MY LAYOUTS AGAINST THE SCHEM!

I just found four separate mistakes glancing at my work. This, after I double-checked both layouts already. As I have no wish to take anyone's money in exchange for a non-working pcb, I'd really appreciate someone's independent verification that these appear likely to work.

Here are the corrected layouts:


"Electrons go where I tell them to go." - wavley