Author Topic: Colorsound Vocalizer vero  (Read 86913 times)

digi2t

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Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #260 on: February 09, 2012, 08:36:43 PM »
Well, I prefer the Talking Pedal front end, so I'm going to throw the Vocalizer back on the bread board. This time, I'm going to lift the front end from the TP, and then go Vocalizer after the 10K fuzz pot.

All in all, when comparing the two, I think the fact that the Vocalizer is mixing the input between the inverting and non-inverting inputs of the opamp is part of the weakness. If you look at the TP, the input is sent only to the + inputs of the opamp. I think if we realign the input on the Vocalizer to match the TP, we'll should get a better, smoother fuzz, like the TP.

The other biggy....

The fuzz and buffer parts of the opamp on the Vocalizer are being fed Vref, which in this case is 4.7 to 5 volts. The TP goes right to 9 volts. Another place to experiment with here.

Put the two schematics side by side, you'll see what I mean.
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digi2t

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Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #261 on: February 10, 2012, 04:27:49 PM »
I sat down last night, liquid paper in hand, and re-drew the front end on the Vocalizer on paper. It basically gives you the TP front end now, with the unknown being the resistor and cap after the buffer. The 100n caps, 47K, and 120K resistors after the fuzz pot might need to be adjusted as well, but it should provide a much better, smoother fuzz/distortion this way. Of course, until I bread board it, it's just conjecture. But, I figured drawing it up was a good start. Besides, I'm leaving Sunday to go roast my ass in Cuba for a week, so I won't have time to play with this right now.

If anyone wants to fool around with this, here it is;



Should provide some interesting results.
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pinkjimiphoton

Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #262 on: February 10, 2012, 05:35:05 PM »
does look interesting...but i think i'm gonna take the cowboy way this time and sit back and see what develops bro.
 

too many other projects!! ;)
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digi2t

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Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #263 on: February 11, 2012, 07:27:58 PM »
Well.... I had some time to kill today, and I couldn't help myself. I threw this sucker on the bread board.

WOW!!!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: It's just a damn shame that the camera is packed away, because my description below just doesn't do this write up justice.

What a difference. I decided to use an LM324 instead of the RC4136, since the LM is more widely available and cheaper. The CA3080 stays, as does the 22K dual gang. I did use a 5.1v zener, instead of the 4.7v. In this circuit, I'm getting exactly 5.0v as Vref. I'm using an AC128 tranny for the switching end of things.

Insofar as the unknowns between pins 4 and 9, I used a 500K trimmer, and tried different caps. In the end, anything between 220K and 470K works well. In this case 390K sounds optimal, along with a 100n cap. It gave me the best balance, and the best YOY when dialing between 0 and 10 on the fuzz dial.

I would use a 10K pot instead of the 3.9K resistor, between pins 2 and 6 on the CA3080. It's great having that frequency adjustment handy. So is the 1K pot, instead of the 390 ohm on the way out, to allow balancing the volume with other pedals.

Now to the meat n' taters...
The fuzz/distortion is fantastic compared to the original Vocalizer layout. Just day and friggin' night. Much richer and smoother, and it really pushes the YOY well. On the clipping side of things, while the 1M resistor is fine, it can be up'd all the way to a 2.2M, which gives a bit harder edge to the drive. I even tried a third diode, for an assymetrical clip, and it sounds great. Personally, I tend to prefer assym clipping, and just changing between sym and assym doesn't affect the output level, while it does change the character of the YOY somewhat. A nice little mod would be a sym/assym switch, allowing selection of one, or the other. One other choice to be made would be the 1uF cap to ground, below the clipping diodes. A 2.2uF could go here as well, but I find the fuzz/distortion a tad buzzier with the 1uF, while the 2.2uF is touch mellower. This is a "flavor to taste" thing.

The only other thing is the 10K fuzz pot. At 10K, some of the fuzz still bleeds in to the circuit with it set at minimum. A 50K cleans things up quite a bit, while a 100K really isolates the buffer from the fuzz side. With 100K, at 0, it gets pretty clean. The YOY is still there, but cleaner, and mellower. I suppose if someone wanted to run it with another dirt pedal, being able to isolate the fuzz side of this circuit would be a good thing.
So, I put it to the test.
With my WEM Project V Fuzz going into it, with a 100K pot set at 0, the fuzz from the WEM's fuzz ran through the buffer unimpeded, while the circuit worked it's YOY magic beautifully. Dialing up the circuit fuzz along with it further distorts the signal, but dialing it down again isolates the circuit fuzz, leaving the WEM tone alone. But let me tell you, the reconfigured front end really helps the filter end work it's magic on any dirt coming in, just like the Talking Pedal. The WEM's fuzz (already pretty raunchy) YOY'd, sounded down right mean and throaty :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:. In the end, this is another "flavor to taste" thing, whether you use a 10K, 25K, 50K, or 100K pot.

So there you have it. This sucker kicks the original circuit into next week, and back again... a few times over.

While I'm away, I'm going to think of a new name for this circuit, something like the "Talk-a-lizer", or the "Vocal-er"  :icon_lol: When I get back, I'm doing a new vero.

Cheers,
Dino

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Ronan

Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #264 on: February 11, 2012, 09:03:37 PM »
Its great to have a win now and then Dino! Hopefully I'll do some breadboard experiments on using the CA3080 as a variable resistance and turn up with something enlightening, or not. :)

digi2t

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Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #265 on: February 11, 2012, 09:51:45 PM »
Its great to have a win now and then Dino! Hopefully I'll do some breadboard experiments on using the CA3080 as a variable resistance and turn up with something enlightening, or not. :)

I'll be interested to see what you dig up when I get back.

Another little mod to the schematic; I canceled the two 100n caps after the #2 pole of the fuzz pot, and inserted a single non-polar 5uF/20v tantalum cap between the pole, and the junction point. This emulates the TP to a further degree, but I find that the YOY is enhanced somewhat, especially with the fuzz turned down. I also tried the same cap in place of the 2.2uF electro on the output, but I found that I lost a tad too much top end, so the 2.2uF stays. I've had these 5uF caps kicking around for a while, now one has found a home.  :icon_mrgreen:

I'm going to plug this schematic into Paint, and try to clean it up. Here we go;

« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 10:56:50 PM by digi2t »
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paulyy

Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #266 on: February 12, 2012, 07:44:23 AM »
This sounds like some great ideas Dino. I'v been messing with this pedal for awhile since you mailed it back and it sounds good but was never crazy about how it would never really clean up when you turned the fuzz all the way down. I will try these mods when I get the chance. Have fun in Cuba :icon_mrgreen:

digi2t

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Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #267 on: February 21, 2012, 11:34:31 AM »
Hi guys, I'm back!

OK, I took yesterday to re-orientate myself here, and I've made a short clip of what I put on the bread board. To my ears, it sounds much fuller, or throatier (call it what you will) than the original Vocalizer circuit. I also find that it sounds more consistant over the whole range of the fretboard, whereas the original seems to lose some of the YOY effect in the high registers. Anyway, you be the judge...



As mentioned in the video, only difference here is the third diode that I added for assymetrical clipping. Also, the 3.9K resistor is being emulated by a trimmer (though I didn't play with it here), and there's no volume pot or 390 ohm resistor, I'm going direct out. Everything else is as drawn.

As paully mentions, either way, it never completely cleans up with the 10K pot at minimum, unless you back off the guitars volume a tad. This improves somewhat if you use a bigger pot, but personally, this whole thing really shines with dirt IMHO. I would go with the 10K, and the guitar volume in a pinch.

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pinkjimiphoton

Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #268 on: February 21, 2012, 12:03:19 PM »
wow, that sounds great dino...let me know when the vero's worked up, maybe time to re-do my vocalizer.
this sounds killer!

also, ian sent me a board for the talking pedal, and i bought a diphongizer from mad bean...soon we can compare all.

but still, to this day, i think my fav so far is the mouthmeistor!
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digi2t

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Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #269 on: February 21, 2012, 01:11:35 PM »
Going to look at the Vocalizer vero, and see if I can shift some things around. Might be easy to reconfigure things a bit.

Working on it.  :icon_mrgreen:
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digi2t

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Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #270 on: February 21, 2012, 09:10:31 PM »
Alright, here we go. The "Talk-a-lizer". Updated schematic, which reflects the vero.



And, the vero. Luckily, I had done an alternate IC vero, and it was a close match for this schematic. Just watch the IC orientation.



I did another experiment, and tried a TL074 IC, in place of the LM324. Well... I was flabbergasted at how much cleaner the circuit got when you turn the fuzz down to zero. I think the LM324 was distorting the clean signal on the buffer side. I think the RC4136 does the same thing, explaining (maybe) why the Vocalizer never completely cleans up with the fuzz at 0. So, most definately go with the TL074 on this one, along with the 10K fuzz pot.

The 5uF/20V tantalum cap on the vero reflets what I'm using, which is a non-polar. I left enough room on the vero though, to allow for a different cut or jumper arrangement for a smaller 4.7uF polar tantalum, which will work as well. I tested this on the bread board, put the positive side of the cap towards the fuzz pot pole 2.

Also added are the volume, frequency pots mod, and there is a place to add a third clipping diode (D7) option. If you want to get the mostest, you could add a switch, to switch between sym/assym clipping. There is no appreciable volume difference between the two, so the Mark Hammer clipping volume mod won't be needed here.

Enjoy guys!!
Dino
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pinkjimiphoton

Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #271 on: February 21, 2012, 09:49:10 PM »
looks great!!! i guess i know what i'll be doing soon. ;)
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pinkjimiphoton

Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #272 on: March 03, 2012, 12:28:51 PM »
bro, a vocalizer has turned up on the other forum

http://fsb.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=13235&p=183674#p183674

you'll have to fix the link...i've requested gut shots, bom and sound or video clips
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digi2t

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Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #273 on: March 03, 2012, 04:38:59 PM »
bro, a vocalizer has turned up on the other forum

http://fsb.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=13235&p=183674#p183674

you'll have to fix the link...i've requested gut shots, bom and sound or video clips

Thanks bro! I posted, requesting sound or video. There is none on the net. As for the schem and layout, I think we've got that in the bag.
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pinkjimiphoton

Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #274 on: March 03, 2012, 07:31:48 PM »
i wanna hear the original tho, so we can see how close we got.

i'm wondering if the original being not true bypass if it was a little warmer sounding...from the pic, was definitely not tb, may have made it sound a bit different.
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pinkjimiphoton

Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #275 on: March 25, 2012, 06:24:15 PM »
btw, fwiw....

i tried the vocalizer the other day straight into a mixer...VIOLA!!..


err,,, voila?


TOTALLY different animal...the yoy, the fuzz ...i mean, the FUZZ even sounded great.

so my suggestion is put dirt before it if necessary, and run it into a clean amp. completely changes the whole nature of the beast.

YMMV, but for me, it was an eye opener.
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digi2t

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Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #276 on: March 25, 2012, 07:11:27 PM »
Good to know bro. Now that I've got the Ampeg back on line, I'm going to try it.

I'm still pretty impressed with the Talkalizer though. Especially the way it cleans up when you dial off the fuzz. Totally different beast.
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Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #277 on: March 25, 2012, 07:54:03 PM »
the talkalizer's on the list bro....

first i gotta finish the talking pedal and the diphonizer...

and the ludwig.. ;)

but FIRST, the mondo monster power supply from hELL
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digi2t

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Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #278 on: March 25, 2012, 08:48:02 PM »
I'm having visions of National Lampoons "Christmas Vacation".

You, plugging it in... and the nuclear power plant down the road having to throw another reactor on line.  :icon_twisted:
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pinkjimiphoton

Re: Colorsound Vocalizer vero
« Reply #279 on: March 26, 2012, 10:28:23 AM »
heh heh heh....


EXCELLENT...

:D
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