Check my layout please? ( etching twice sucks ).

[buildafriend]

Alright men, chew me up please.
...
How would you improve this layout?

If these prototypes come out good and sell I will order a run of professional PCB's with pre made holes for PCB mounting.

So for those of you who have not been following along at home, let me summarize:

Hi, I designed this layout for yet another Muff-- you know, the one shown in this schematic that I didn't draw? My Muff design is different: I plan on trying to sell my version.

My plan doesn't stop there, though. I'm also going to try to convince a bunch of people to help me-- for free-- so I have to put in very little actual work. Heck, I won't even label the components-- these people are smart enough to figure it out themselves.

I sure hope this sells, so I can raise enough money to get professionally manufactured boards. Coming soon-- can you check my new layout before I order my professionally manufactured boards?

I used to think R.G. was just being cynical. Now I join in the cynicism.

Good luck with your garden. The most satisfying harvest is the one that comes after a long, laborious growing season.

Mike

Mike, you should find a new place to be mean to optimistic beginners.

[.Mike]

Hah! If you look at my posts, you will see that the overwhelming majority are helpful, and I specifically go out of my way to assist new builders.

What you are looking for is free verification of your for-profit project. Even if someone was inclined to help you make money, you aren't making it easy on us.

As a result, you haven't received much help. Instead, you get responses like:

It's a little difficult, if not impossible, not check it without component values or offboard leads labeled 

Where are the inputs/outputs?  Which controls are which?  Is there an opposite side?  Because it looks like a lot of components terminate at non-connections.

We need component names!

Once I wrote a book on PCB layout. It goes through an important first step that you missed.

How will you mount this in a box?

Oh, and when will the store be on line?

Oh, and when will the store be on line?

Oh, and when will the store be on line?

Give it plenty of water and sunshine! 

Instead of responding to your PM, I will just say that I think my post was helpful. It-- like many all the posts I quoted-- lets your intentions known to the helpful, friendly folks around here without requiring them to read the whole topic.

Don't take it the wrong way, man. Most of the help that goes on around here, as I am sure you know, is for personal projects. People who want to build specifically to profit can't possibly expect the same willingness to share the work without a willingness to share the wealth. That's the wall you've hit here, and I'm just the latest person to try to tell you. 

And I'm having a great day, thanks for asking. Looking forward to a nice, restful sleep, and a productive day tomorrow.

Mike

[Govmnt_Lacky]

^+1

Yeah...... What he said! 

[frequencycentral]

[slacker]

How would you improve this layout?

I'd make it match the schematic

Check Q2 and Q3

[R.G.]

Mike, you should find a new place to be mean to optimistic beginners.

Actually, Mike is very protective of beginners, even in the face of my cynicism.

I have seen so very many people try to use the free help here to get in on what they perceive as the gravy train of money from being an instant boutique guru. I'm not opposed to helping someone who is in business with a problem; there are many of the boutique pedal makers who have had my help either publicly or privately for free.

However, every so often, someone pops in here with the attitude that they'll just pump the forum for how to do this stuff, then get on line and make some money without having to do the necessary learning and skill development. This is offensive to the people who have done the homework first.

People with some experience in reading forums often go look at the other posts someone makes if they get any hint of a question being odd. In your case there are these:
August 17: "What is a virtual ground connection? Is it hypothetical or does it need to be a connection?"
August 16: "Simply put, what does "Vb" stand for in this schematic? Is it the gain pot?"
August 16: "I want to prototype it but I just need 2 little things cleared up; What are the small upward pointing arrows representing on the top of IC pin 8 and on top of R4? and what are those little pads that say Vb on them supposed to be doing? I have noted that there is no variable resistor listed that would be the gain pot. Is vB supposed to be connected to the gain pot?"
June 15: "I would rather make a few bucks for the build than batter him with questions and technical advice. "

You'll want to search for "sustain punch" and "Jeff Doucette" (note: not the actor) for some background. He was a high school student who discovered the effects forums, pumped the forums for info, then instantly started referring to himself in the plural "we" and selling pedals from his instant-guru web site. It left a lasting bad taste in the DIY community's mouth around a decade ago.

[askwho69]

He just like Angelo777 who wants an info but never give a schematic because he want to sell the pedal! hahaha

[buildafriend]

So you are offended because I am not learning certain things? Go ahead.. teach me. 

You are offended because I want to make small amounts of money after being a poor musician for my entire life? I don't owe you money. It's kind of funny that you feel entitled to anything for this, go be a teacher at a tech school if that is what you want. You best bet I am going to take full advantage of learning everything I can for free. I went to school for audio engineering, and I went to 2 year school for technology. I interned, I've cloned, and I've toured, I've tracked, I've repaired friends amps, and I've always lent a helping hand. You don't know anything about how communal I am. I always help everyone as much as possible. It's called having a good optimistic nature. Fuzz is a good seller, its something that people buy. I don't personally care for tremelo, compression, phasers, wahs, or octave pedals, and I don't have to! Currently there is no passion there. 

We have this place, to help and be optimistic to each other. You are failing to do that, I do not see how your points even come close to relating to the title of this post.

If you ever want me to check a layout for you, I would be glad to.

Obviously people can check the layout because someone just did. It's not a crime to post without designators. In fact, if you literally cant check things that way you might not have the appropriate spacial understanding of things to be designing layouts. Or are you a strip board guy? What have you done? I am curious now.

[buildafriend]

How would you improve this layout?

I'd make it match the schematic

Check Q2 and Q3

Hm I see whats wrong with q2, but one looks alright to me...

[R.G.]

So you are offended because I am not learning certain things?

I'm not offended - just disappointed in the attitude.

I think you might be interested in what you'd find out with a little reading. Try http://www.geofex.com and a search on my posts here for a start.

[cpm]

Obviously people can check the layout because someone just did. It's not a crime to post without designators. In fact, if you literally cant check things that way you might not have the appropriate spacial understanding of things to be designing layouts. Or are you a strip board guy? What have you done? I am curious now.

yeah, anyway... who are those folks like Mark Hammer and R.G., what a prepotent guys...

[deadastronaut]

He just like Angelo777 who wants an info but never give a schematic because he want to sell the pedal! hahaha

ha ha, yeah i remember that/him....that was funny....we never did get to see/hear whatever it was.....

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=84752.0

[buildafriend]

So you are offended because I am not learning certain things?

I'm not offended - just disappointed in the attitude.

I think you might be interested in what you'd find out with a little reading. Try http://www.geofex.com and a search on my posts here for a start.

I will read. Truce?

[tiges_ tendres]

So you are offended because I am not learning certain things? Go ahead.. teach me. 

You are offended because I want to make small amounts of money after being a poor musician for my entire life? I don't owe you money. It's kind of funny that you feel entitled to anything for this, go be a teacher at a tech school if that is what you want. You best bet I am going to take full advantage of learning everything I can for free. I went to school for audio engineering, and I went to 2 year school for technology. I interned, I've cloned, and I've toured, I've tracked, I've repaired friends amps, and I've always lent a helping hand. You don't know anything about how communal I am. I always help everyone as much as possible. It's called having a good optimistic nature. Fuzz is a good seller, its something that people buy. I don't personally care for tremelo, compression, phasers, wahs, or octave pedals, and I don't have to! Currently there is no passion there. 

We have this place, to help and be optimistic to each other. You are failing to do that, I do not see how your points even come close to relating to the title of this post.

If you ever want me to check a layout for you, I would be glad to.

Obviously people can check the layout because someone just did. It's not a crime to post without designators. In fact, if you literally cant check things that way you might not have the appropriate spacial understanding of things to be designing layouts. Or are you a strip board guy? What have you done? I am curious now.

Wow.  Just wow.

Here is why when you post a layout you should post the values on it:

If all the routing is correct, but all of the resistors and caps are the wrong values, the pedal isn't going to work.  People wont buy pedals that don't work.  You want to sell them right?

Also, it's assumed that if you have the balls to sell a pedal, you shouldn't need to ask for help in checking a layout. 

What have you done for THIS community?  You only have to look at the recent Ludwig Phase Synthesizer threads to see that people here are more than willing to pitch in and help each other figure something unknown out. 

Q) What do you think is different between those Phase Synthesizer threads and this one?

A) Your attitude.

[Perrow]

First, your attitude leaves a lot to be desired. Many of the guys that have posted in this thread are the exact guys I hope post in the threads I start. A general rule could be to stay humble when guys with more than, say, 1000 posts tells you what they need to help you better.

Second, my technique for verifying layouts is to print both the layout and the schematic, then walk them through component by component, leg by leg, connection by connection, slowly, twice. Then repeat for component values.

[boogietone]

So you are offended because I am not learning certain things? Go ahead.. teach me. 

Nope. Not offended. I won't speak for anyone except myself, but there is no offense even in wanting to make a buck. But, when someone responds to the very valid point that they did not provide commonly included and really necessary information (like values/designations on a PCB layout so that it can be matched to a schematic) with the attitude that the other person should be smart enough to just print it out and use a highlighter to mark traces, expect to get some push back. Follow up that with comments where the advice given is essentially disregarded and this is what will happen. Every. Time. Remember that pretty much everyone on this forum has to make their own buck as well at a day job that has generally nothing to do with guitar pedals. For someone to ask a question and not provide sufficient information to allow someone else to be able to efficiently give an answer is a good way to get no answer at all.

[slacker]

Hm I see whats wrong with q2, but one looks alright to me...

Same error on both, look at the transistor ends of the 12k resistors.

To be honest, if I wanted to sell some boutique Big Muffs I'd save myself the time and effort of drawing and etching a layout and just buy the boards off General Guitar Gadgets. They're well made, look professional, are guaranteed to work first time, will be cheaper than making them yourself and best of all we can avoid all the blooming flower shenanigans 

[Earthscum]

+1 to slacker's comment. If you would stop for a minute and look around, you'll realize there are no less than 3 sites offering BMP boards for sale.

And on stopping for a moment... how in the world did you figure you can make any kind of living selling pedals, especially clones?!? Buddy, if you had any REAL skill in any of the areas you boasted about, you wouldn't be here begging for help making a buck in an area you obviously have no clue what you're getting into.

let me tell you what I learned well before I built my first BMP: How to bias a transistor.

Even before that, I learned what a Vb is. Grounding. What those little arrows are. I don't think you've even demostrated that you understand Ohm's Law, yet you think you're going to make money building circuits?

And one last question... what happens when one comes back not working? I can answer that... you'll be back here, attitude in hand, begging us to all help you debug this so you don't lose the guy as a customer. We'll refer you to the "debugging thread", and you'll throw a fit and accuse us of being hypocrites "you pretend to be helpful, but then you act like this towards those that are asking!!"

You're asking for food, people are offering to show you how to GROW YOUR OWN FOOD, but you refuse. And you give nothing back except attitude.

Just my opinion, of course. Take it or leave it.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

And one last question... what happens when one comes back not working?

Huh 

What are you talking about? THAT CAN'T HAPPEN!! IT WILL WORK ALL THE TIME.... EVERYTIME! 

[jrod]

Hey buildafriend,

What's up man? Hey, listen, I am a poor musician and have been all my life. I am unable to gig right now because I don't have a fuzz box. When you get your pedals built will you send me one for free? I'd really appreciate it, man. I mean you don't think you are entitled to anything for building these do you?

I am going to take advantage of all the free sh*t I can get. I am really looking forward to my new free fuzz box from you, buildafriend.  

Thanks bro!