Would anyone be able to tell....?

[Mark Hammer]

If you took two copies of the same "classic" distortion pedal, built with standard component selection techniques (i.e., grab another resistor/capacitor/chip from the bin), and packaged them in different enclosures so people *thought* they were different pedals, and then did optimal A/B comparison testing.....

Would the average user think they were playing two different designs or the same kind of pedal?  Would they be able to accurately depict what and WHY they thought one was "better" than the other?

Conversely, if you took two clones of the same basic design - one a stock commercial pedal and the other an exotic boo-teek version of same - and stuck them in the SAME kind of enclosure so that folks thought they were just two copies of the same pedal, and did the same kind of A/B comparison, would the boo-teek one reliably come out ahead?  Would testers know what it was they liked about one over the other?  I.e., without knowing pedigree would they be able to reliably and consistently across testers detect the same characteristics?

Is this the stuff legends are made of?  :wink:

Or is this something we simply don't want to know?

[Samuel]

Not sure - but I remember the trick I got taught long ago - if you're recording and the engineer asks you to dial back your tone pot a bit, just place your hand over it, wait a second and say "how's that?"

[ErikMiller]

I'd say that in the case of the different enclosures, most people would "hear" a difference.

Nothing wrong with that; people pay in differences of thousands of dollars for their guitars, automobiles, etc. to be functionally equivalent but look different.

Especially when it comes to creative pursuits, such as playing music, the look and feel of one's gear is an important part of the inspiration.

In the case of the boutique construction techniques vs. mass-produced in the same enclosures, I would predict an audible difference in many cases, depending on the circuit. Especially if it were something that's notoriously touchy, like a Fuzz Face or other distorting type.

If you made the test 10 of the mass-produced vs. 10 of the exotic, the differences would become even more apparent.

The thing is, though, since such things are so subject to taste, some might like the sound of some of the mass-produced ones BETTER than the boutiques.

As a purveyor of artisan effects myself, I have given much thought to the question of why anyone should spend more money to get my stuff than they would pay for a Boss pedal. There are many reasons, not all of which are true for all boutique manufacturers.

[Elektrojänis]

Not sure - but I remember the trick I got taught long ago - if you're recording and the engineer asks you to dial back your tone pot a bit, just place your hand over it, wait a second and say "how's that?"

I think that has been used the other way around too...

[Samuel]

I think that has been used the other way around too...

It's been pulled on me a few times for sure

[petemoore]

Just to really throw 'em off, 'wire' in a dummy chip or transistor...
 so the ckt [electronic wise] is exact duplicate, but the look of the outside AND the inside are different...[??]

[brett]

There's already a common version of this test.  Ask some old-timers whether they like the TS808 or the TS9 better.  We know that technically the only difference is in the 2 output resistors, which makes an imperceptable difference in sound.

But having different names for the two pedals sets up an expectation of differences (well TS9 and TS808 are 799 TSs different, right? :wink: ).

Anyway, last time I heard this comparison (by a so-called expert), he said that TS808s were too "bright" and "thin" in comparison to a TS9.  :!:  100% imaginary difference in my opinion.

cheers

[brett]

PS there's examples of all sorts of biases, "false" knowledge and faulty decisionmaking listed in excellent books by Russo and Shoemaker.  One example that I found surprising is that in a study of surgeons offered two alternative procedures, they greatly prefered one with a 99.2% survival rate compared to another with a 0.8% death rate.  Probably the same thinking applies to foods that are advertised 98% fat-free instead of 2%fat.  People (even well-educated surgeons) are impressed by large numbers, maybe??

[csj]

deleted

[Marcus Dahl]

myself can say that the average bar club guitar player can't tell the difference. I say that because my job used to be in a guitar store. There are the exceptions, but everybody has an image of what the want to hear. Note that I said image. Some use that image as in an actual audible sound and others confuse that image with what the actually see instead of hear. Most male, and I'm not being prejudice, are visually stimulated. Most guitar players are male. So yes the visually if an average guitar player looks at a TS9, and believes that that is the Holy Grail of tone, then that is what he is going to pick. Now because Nashville does have just as many, if not a little more than the average guitar player, I would believe that most would be able to tell if it is the same or different. The true test would to be a blind test.

Most of what I said is not based on fact, but observation. The only fact that was brought to the front is that men are visually stimulated. :shock:

[aron]

>If you took two copies of the same "classic" distortion pedal, built with standard component selection techniques

I would think the pedals would sound different just from tolerance/component differences. The case would add another dimension.

>Would the average user think they were playing two different designs or the same kind of pedal?

They would probably say they sound similar, but that x pedal sounds better than y.

>Would they be able to accurately depict what and WHY they thought one was "better" than the other?

Yes, I think they would be able to explain it in vague terms.

>SAME kind of enclosure so that folks thought they were just two copies of the same pedal, and did the same kind of A/B comparison, would the boo-teek one reliably come out ahead?

Don't know about this. Depends on the design obviously.

>Would testers know what it was they liked about one over the other? I.e., without knowing pedigree would they be able to reliably and consistently across testers detect the same characteristics?

Yes, I believe so.

I can tell differences between copies of my own pedals quite easily.

Aron

[Hal]

i thought the TS9 and TS808 had different op-amps, too ? ?

well, my thoughts on this - maybe.  I don't think that most people would be able to tell a differance.  i don't think I could tell the differance...I mean, there are some commercial pedals that just sound _bad_. And some that just don't sound great.  I was about to buy a boss Super Chorus new, when I saw a CE-2 used for $50.  I tried it out and fell in love.  It was the sound i was looking for.  Now, sure they're not even remotely the same circuit, but some consider any bucket-brigade chorus elite, boo-teek worthy stuff.  So...I dunno too much about distortions, I use my amp's ususally....but chorus, yes.  

a better quesion would be if people can tell the difference between true-bypass and non-true bypass commercial pedals...

[sfr]

I'm not sure, but I often swap different distortion circuit into my Fazz Face, (a lot of room so I don't have to worry so much about getting wire lengths right or making everything fit nice if I want to gig with a circuit I just finished) and I can tell you, they all sound a lot better stuffed inside that iconic blue circle.  

[ErikMiller]

For my part, I wouldn't be selling my pedals if I didn't sincerely believe that I had something to offer that people couldn't get somewhere else.

Even though a Crucible Fuzz schematic would look rather familiar to anyone who's seen a Fuzz Face schematic, I've established that I can't just mod a FF and make it sound like a Crucible Fuzz.

The reason for this is layout, both of the PCB and the wires. I don't claim to understand it completely, but I used to lay out RF circuits. The process has guidelines, but it can be trial-and-error.

With high gain distorting devices, we're taking electronic components and deliberately operating them outside their intended specifications. At that point, anything is possible.

For all we know, two PCB traces run next to each other could be causing an oscillation that cannot be heard, but may affect frequencies that we CAN hear. And it still might not show up on an oscilloscope.

So don't discount the effects of layout. It often looks to me as if we completely ignore it, assuming that all you have to do is tinkertoy all the parts together in the right order and it'll sound the same.

Not the case, in my personal and professional experience, and the more that excessive gain is a part of the unit's sound, the more layout is going to be a factor.

[Lonehdrider]

A average player 'may' be able to hear subtle differences, in my opinion it depends on they're ear. Some can't even hear if its out of tune let alone a small nuance in distortion/booster tone. I also think its rather sad that alot of boxes are sold by virtue of what steve van whoeveritis might be playing on his latest alblum. Put two players on the exact same guitar with the same setup/amp etc and they'll be a difference just from the way the player frets, attacks and they're touch. I can play through a tube screamer, but it doesn't make me sound like Stevie Ray Vaughnn. Sure you can get close, but you won't ever (opinion) get the exact same sound. So, not to get totally off topic, as I say depends on the ear. Likewise, the power of suggestion is something to behold, I've made changes I was sure changed my tone and in fact it didn't really, I just wanted to believe it did, ah the minds a terrible thing to waste hehe...


Regards,

Lone

[Ansil]

i dont' think so perhaps if so it woudl be vaguely.  i have done a similar taste test. i have put a clone box out there with real boss guts, and boss guts with a crappy misbiased fuzz and people want the boss brand name.  but i have also put out a boss in the hammond case and put my custom ds386 or the hm386 in a real boss case, and have sold them all day long like that.

[ErikMiller]

....the power of suggestion is something to behold, I've made changes I was sure changed my tone and in fact it didn't really, I just wanted to believe it did, ah the minds a terrible thing to waste hehe...

I am unusual in that I don't believe that the placebo effect is "cheating."

If someone plunks down $200 for a good-looking widget, plugs their guitar into it, and is inspired by its appearance and price to play better, they've gotten every cent worth.

I put a lot of thought and a lot of work into making my pedals look pleasing, and that's surely part of what I'm selling.

[Mark Hammer]

Interesting replies so far.

I asked the question largely because while there are controls of a sort built into the patent application process (i.e., is this a sufficiently different idea to warrant ownership protection as intellectual property?), there is no industry-wide body or process for establishing detectable differences between products all claiming to do the same task differently or better.  You can say, or I can say, or when the new issue of Guitar Player gets delivered to the newsstand downstairs at work this morning THEY can say, that pedal X has qualities P, Q, and R which are somehow better (or worse) than pedal Y.

But is that so?  *ARE* they?

Do they actually do it differently or better, or is it often just packaging, advertising claims, or mistaken inferences from users/reviewers based on variations in component tolerances?  The absence of any standardized testing of devices of the same type leaves this up in the air.

Certainly, in the case of the instruments themselves (and I leave completely electronic ones out of this discussion) we are accustomed to sample-to-sample variation.  Many of us here know we've picked up bargain-basement copies that were absolute killer, and supposed top-o-the-line originals that seemed a little wanting in hard to define ways.  We accept that there WILL be natural variations in instruments because of things like wood and the way that necks can feel a little different or that pickups can be wound.  When it comes to pedals, though, we often tend to act as if a model is a model is a model, with zero variation, and then turn around and act as if little things make a HUGE difference.

Isn't it ironic that issues of the Big Muff Pi get revered in many circles, yet at the same time there is copious discussion of how throughout the 70's E-H used whatever caps/values or transistors they could get their hands on cheap this week.  

A couple years back, Gilles Caron, Mike Irwin, and I went to see a local blues player who Gilles was fond of.  The guy had killer tone.  I went up to him after and said "You must have had to go through a bunch of Tube Screamers to find one that nice", and he replied "Nah, I just went and bought one stock" I.e., he went to a music store and bought a new, off-the shelf TS-9 at regular retail prices, *not* an obscure issue with a known pedigree.

Odd, truly odd.

[WGTP]

That is why Op amps, caps, etc. are so hard to evaluate. :twisted: