Author Topic: The Worlsd smallest flangers....  (Read 67909 times)

edd29

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2010, 10:43:56 AM »
SOLDERMAN.

   this is what Im waiting for! thanks for sharing.

gigimarga

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2010, 05:30:51 PM »
Hello solderman,

I hope that in the next week I will get the PCBs for this fabulous ADA Flanger (I will have eternal gratitude for you and all the wonderful people which worked on ADA Flanger!) and I have some (maybe stupid) questions:

1. Do these instructions http://moosapotamus.net/IDEAS/ADAflanger/ADA_MN3007/ADA%20Flanger%20Clone%20Build%20Instructions%20PCB%20rev5%20MN3007%20Jan2010.pdf made by moosapotamus are the proper one to your PCBs (there are more versions on his site)?

2. If the answer to question no.1 is YES go to questions no. 3, else go to question no. 4.

3. a) In the instructiuons, C38 is listed as a 2uF electro, but the Mouser code seems to be one of a 2.2uF electro. Which is the correct value?
   b) The LT1054 it's very expensive here, and MAX 1044 can't be found. Can I use ICL7660 instead?
   c) What type of LM7815 have you used in your clone: the little one (TO92) or the big one (like an IRFxxxx)?
   d) C36 is listed as 22-33uF electro. How to choose between these two values?
   e) Some values of the resistors I can't find here (250R, 14K, 1.3M). Are them critical (in this case I will combine 2 resistors to get them...but I hate this!) or I can approximate them (220/240R, 13/15K and 1.2/1.5M)?

4. The DIP switches must be something like that: http://www.syscomelco.ro/ProdusDetaliu.asp?ID=1930 (I never used DIP switches before...)?

5. For the safeness of my only MN3007: if I plan to use only the MN3007 (very hard to get a MN3207 here), I must to use jumpers for the green connections and nothing for the blue ones?

6. DIP 1 is for switching between 9V/15V, I suppose. Which are the differences between the two versions? Is there a serious reason to keep the DIP or I can use a simple jumper for one of the versions?

7. You said: "By me Added caps and resistors have got a number higher than that on the original BOM." Which components have you added and what are their values?

Best regards and many thanks,
Radu
   

« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 05:32:24 PM by gigimarga »

starekase502

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2010, 08:55:46 PM »
sorry for the newb question but could a mn3204 be used in place of the mn3207 on the subewave. 

solderman

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2010, 11:45:30 AM »
Hello solderman,

I hope that in the next week I will get the PCBs for this fabulous ADA Flanger (I will have eternal gratitude for you and all the wonderful people which worked on ADA Flanger!) and I have some (maybe stupid) questions:

1. Do these instructions http://moosapotamus.net/IDEAS/ADAflanger/ADA_MN3007/ADA%20Flanger%20Clone%20Build%20Instructions%20PCB%20rev5%20MN3007%20Jan2010.pdf made by moosapotamus are the proper one to your PCBs (there are more versions on his site)?

YES

2. If the answer to question no.1 is YES go to questions no. 3, else go to question no. 4.

3. a) In the instructiuons, C38 is listed as a 2uF electro, but the Mouser code seems to be one of a 2.2uF electro. Which is the correct value? Dont Know but 2,2 will probably work
   b) The LT1054 it's very expensive here, and MAX 1044 can't be found. Can I use ICL7660 instead? YES but omit the jusmper pin 1-8 se moosapotamus PDF for PSU alternative  
  c) What type of LM7815 have you used in your clone: the little one (TO92) or the big one (like an IRFxxxx)? The big but that's cause I had one in stock
   d) C36 is listed as 22-33uF electro. How to choose between these two values? Se moosapotamus PDF
   e) Some values of the resistors I can't find here (250R, 14K, 1.3M). Are them critical (in this case I will combine 2 resistors to get them...but I hate this!) or I can approximate them (220/240R, 13/15K and 1.2/1.5M)? Don't know but usualy 10% off is OK

4. The DIP switches must be something like that: http://www.syscomelco.ro/ProdusDetaliu.asp?ID=1930 (I never used DIP switches before...)? or use jumpers instead

5. For the safeness of my only MN3007: if I plan to use only the MN3007 (very hard to get a MN3207 here), I must to use jumpers for the green connections and nothing for the blue ones? Then omit eveterything that you don't need, See the schematci

6. DIP 1 is for switching between 9V/15V, I suppose. Which are the differences between the two versions? Is there a serious reason to keep the DIP or I can use a simple jumper for one of the versions? >As you only need one option jumper it

7. You said: "By me Added caps and resistors have got a number higher than that on the original BOM." Which components have you added and what are their values? Cant'remeber but it will be tha ones with numres higher  than the original BOM

I have not built and verifyed one yet. It's only half finished. All work no play :-)

Best regards and many thanks,
Radu
  


« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 11:47:21 AM by solderman »
The only bad sounding stomp box is an unbuilt stomp box. ;-)
//Take Care and build with passion

www.soldersound.com
xSolderman@soldersound.com (exlude x to mail)

gigimarga

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2010, 01:49:16 PM »
Thx a lot solderman!

solderman

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2010, 09:24:03 AM »
Hi all

I found time to finish my ADA last week. Unfortunately it does not work. I have spent a lot of hors trouble shooting it to find out why it does not work. I have checked my layout dozens of times and the same with solder bridges and correct components in correct place. But found no obvious reason why it won’t work. My frustration has now reached a critical level so I thought that it was best to reach for help from the “fellowship of the stomp boxes”

Before I post voltage readings and such I would like to know the answer to some questions to help me get to understand if I have made a layout error or if it is a building error. As far as this I am pretty sure that it is the LFO that is the main problem.

At the moment I am using the MN3007 at +15V.

I have checked all basics,  that GND is 0V at all places it suppose to be and that I have 14-15V at V+ and ½  (around 7V) at Vb. I have also followed “moosapotamus” checklist in the PDF. I have also probed the circuit with my signal generator as source.

Q1. I have a good signal at pin 3 of the BBD.  If the LFO is working what should I hear if I probe pin 7-8 and what should I hear if the LFO is not working?

Q2. As I have divided the total circuit in two hlavs, LFO and Audio Can I test the Audio part By inserting any old LFO I have as long as it delivers a sine wave and has a common GND etc or what specs does it have to meet? I was thinking of bread boarding the LFO part of a John Hollis Zombie chorus or maybe Ultra flanger together to test with.

Q3
Connected with a signal source the circuit delivers dry signal on Out.  When I probe all the signal currying op-amps I also have signal (some times weak some times stronger) on all OP-amp OUT pins. One thing that puzzles me is that I have a good signal at viper of T6/R73 and a weak signal at the other side of R73 but no signal at Pin 9 of IC2c. But a strong signal at  pin 8 of IC2c (pins referring to the schematics’ not to the build) . This seams wrong to me. In my layout IC2c is a dual OP-Amp and the 2:nd half of that Op-Amp is IC2c. As I see it should not matter that Op-amps used are not physically contained in the same chip as the schematic says as long as the schematics is kept correct and GND and V/Vb is consistent. Am I way out here??

Thank’s for answers

Here it is

« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 09:44:02 AM by solderman »
The only bad sounding stomp box is an unbuilt stomp box. ;-)
//Take Care and build with passion

www.soldersound.com
xSolderman@soldersound.com (exlude x to mail)

oldschoolanalog

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2010, 07:33:21 PM »
>As far as this I am pretty sure that it is the LFO that is the main problem.<
First check the LFO. Set your DMM to DCV; probe output pin of the LFO. If you get a rising & falling V that changes speed when you change the rate pot setting the LFO is working.
Next, take a break for a day or two.
I'm serious.
When frustration reaches "critical mass" nothing good could come of that.
I have some ideas for your other Q's but first you need to verify if it is in fact the LFO that's the problem.
Next, what other test equipment do you have? f counter? 'Scope? Not critical but it would help to know.
All the Best!
Mystery lounge. No tables, chairs or waiters here. In fact, we're all quite alone.

gigimarga

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2010, 01:45:58 AM »
I'm sorry to hear that it didn't work :(
I hope to receive the PCBs for it this week and I will try to build as soon as possible (maybe this could help you).
Anyway, what's the 2x4 DIP for?

solderman

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2010, 01:17:59 PM »
>As far as this I am pretty sure that it is the LFO that is the main problem.<
First check the LFO. Set your DMM to DCV; probe output pin of the LFO. If you get a rising & falling V that changes speed when you change the rate pot setting the LFO is working.
Next, take a break for a day or two.
I'm serious.
When frustration reaches "critical mass" nothing good could come of that.
I have some ideas for your other Q's but first you need to verify if it is in fact the LFO that's the problem.
Next, what other test equipment do you have? f counter? 'Scope? Not critical but it would help to know.
All the Best!
Thanks’ for the supportive words.
Yes I have a good pulsing LFO at OUT  (IC4b on the schematics). I actually had to dig deep to find my old analog volt meter since a DMM has a hard time showing that wind screen wiper effect.

Unfortunately my DMM has no frequency function and I do not own a scope all though I wish I did.

I can hear a squeal and a pulsing noise in pace with the LFO from pin 2 on the BDD. The same from pin 6 but about twice the frequency. Both shows 7,02V. When probed, the signal is loud and clear at Pin 3. But at pin 7-8 there is only a week distorted signal very much like a wrongly biased Fuzz Face and a week high frequency noise. Shouldn’t there be some kind of raw flanging sound here. The signal I get is no where near a flanging sound.  I tested the MN3007 in my Small Clone and it works perfect so there is nothing wrong with the BBD.

Voltage at the BDD

1=14,23
2=7,02
3=9,68
4=1,00
5=0,00
6=7,03
7=8,81
8=8,81


 Any ideas?

The only bad sounding stomp box is an unbuilt stomp box. ;-)
//Take Care and build with passion

www.soldersound.com
xSolderman@soldersound.com (exlude x to mail)

solderman

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2010, 01:22:06 PM »
I'm sorry to hear that it didn't work :(
I hope to receive the PCBs for it this week and I will try to build as soon as possible (maybe this could help you).
Anyway, what's the 2x4 DIP for?

I assume you mean the one on the audio PCB that has 1&3 in ON position. That is to shange place between the 14K(R71)  and 1K(R70) resistor when using MN3007 or MN3207
The only bad sounding stomp box is an unbuilt stomp box. ;-)
//Take Care and build with passion

www.soldersound.com
xSolderman@soldersound.com (exlude x to mail)

gigimarga

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2010, 01:40:34 PM »
I'm sorry to hear that it didn't work :(
I hope to receive the PCBs for it this week and I will try to build as soon as possible (maybe this could help you).
Anyway, what's the 2x4 DIP for?

I assume you mean the one on the audio PCB that has 1&3 in ON position. That is to shange place between the 14K(R71)  and 1K(R70) resistor when using MN3007 or MN3207

Yes...thx a lot and good luck!

oldschoolanalog

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2010, 02:54:08 PM »
It sounds like a BBD bias issue. I just took some quick V readings from my moose rev5 (MN3007) and the only differences were pin3 measured 8.37V and pins 7&8 were 5.97V. All the other pins were within ~.1V when compared w/yours. Try biasing as per Charlie's instructions (page7):
http://moosapotamus.net/IDEAS/ADAflanger/ADA_MN3007/ADA%20Flanger%20Clone%20Build%20Instructions%20PCB%20rev5%20MN3007%20Jan2010.pdf
I'll probe mine w/a signal generator later and let you know what I get.
Stay Cool. :icon_cool:
Mystery lounge. No tables, chairs or waiters here. In fact, we're all quite alone.

solderman

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2010, 09:50:19 AM »
I have played around with the T1 bias and I have a good pulsing sound on pin7-8 on the BBD much like the one on my working Small Clone and the speed pot effects the pulsing.
I think the problem is around IC2c. I have a good pulsing sound on the pin 8 end of R34 (10K) but some strange noise at the other end of that resistor. Is this the expected behavior? My conclusion is that its not. I think that I shuld have a signal here. This leads me to believe that the error is some ware in the “Threshold” part.
As I understand it, the dry signal is sent in to the “Threshold” trough C16 and its level is then monitored by IC3a&b and its surrounding components. When the level has reached the level determined by the threshold pot, the resistance of Q1 gets higher and lowers the total resistance to let more Vb true to R34/R36 and alter the bias and the sound.
If I am correct I should have some kind of audio signal at the R34-R36 junction. Or am I out in the ….??

To test my theory and to trouble shoot this, I will try to lift the end of R34 connected to R36 from the PCB and do the same with R42 the end connected to IC1c and R39 and then connect the lifted part of R34 to the lifted part of R42. This way I will disconnect the threshold and the “enhance” regeneration part. And hopfolly have some kind of flanging sound. am I out in the ….here as well??
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 10:17:05 AM by solderman »
The only bad sounding stomp box is an unbuilt stomp box. ;-)
//Take Care and build with passion

www.soldersound.com
xSolderman@soldersound.com (exlude x to mail)

solderman

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2010, 02:52:21 PM »
YES
I have flanging. Well at least a very bad sounding chorus or vibrato. But never the less it’s that unmistakably BDD sound.

I lifted and connected the resistors as described above and it worked as I suspected. Now I know that the error is in the “threshold” or “enhance” part.
Time to isolate one at the time
To be continued…    

Edit:
YES
I Put the resistors back in and cut the trace from Q1 to the R34/R36/R37 junction and... Flanging at the output
Can it be the Q1. Its a 2N3819 and others have used it ??? Better check the layout, components, solder bridges or bad joints for the 100's time. But now i have a limited area to focus at and it "almost" works.
Now its sounds like a flanger all though a bad sounding one. Guess i have to trim it to sound good. T1 are simpel by ear, T2 and T6 are level type so ear is OK here as well.   T3,4 and 5 is harder to set by ear since I don't know what to lisen for.

BTW can some one that have a working circuit tell me what the threshold contribute with to the circut sound wise or other wise??

« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 04:15:23 PM by solderman »
The only bad sounding stomp box is an unbuilt stomp box. ;-)
//Take Care and build with passion

www.soldersound.com
xSolderman@soldersound.com (exlude x to mail)

gigimarga

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2010, 04:14:28 PM »
.................................................
YES
I Put the resistors back in and cut the trace from Q1 to the R34/R36/R37 junction and... Flanging at the output
Can it be the Q1. Its a 2N3819 and others have used it ??? Better check the layout, components, solder bridges or bad joints for the 100's time. But now it "almost" works.
Now its sounds like a flanger all though a bad sounding one. Guess i have to trim it to sound good. T1 are simpel by ear, T2 and T6 are level type so ear is OK here as well.   T3,4 and 5 is harder to set by ear since I don't know what to lisen for.

BTW can some one that have a working circuit tell me what the threshold contribute with to the circut sound wise or other wise??

Glad to hear that it's working now!
You're a fabulous man, solderman... :-*


oldschoolanalog

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2010, 04:42:50 PM »
About the Threshold control...
You have to decide if you want to build that part of the circuit for voltage controlled flanging...
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=74367.40
Replies 46 & 47.
Or, as a noise gate. Replies 52 & 53.
The VC flanging is very cool but is more difficult to set up.
The noise gate is simple to set up and works like a charm.
Your call.
Maybe try removing Q1 & R35 and see how it sounds without that part of the circuit in play. Then experiment with the threshold section after you have it sounding good. edit: Just realized that is what you did. Oops! :icon_redface:
All the Best!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 04:48:07 PM by oldschoolanalog »
Mystery lounge. No tables, chairs or waiters here. In fact, we're all quite alone.

stringsthings

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2010, 09:57:38 PM »
YES
I have flanging..... it’s that unmistakably BDD sound.

I lifted and connected the resistors as described above and it worked as I suspected. Now I know that the error is in the “threshold” or “enhance” part.
Time to isolate one at the time
To be continued…    

Edit:
YES
I Put the resistors back in and cut the trace from Q1 to the R34/R36/R37 junction and... Flanging at the output
Can it be the Q1. Its a 2N3819 and others have used it ??? Better check the layout, components, solder bridges or bad joints for the 100's time. But now i have a limited area to focus at and it "almost" works.
Now its sounds like a flanger ......



excellent job at trouble shooting !! give yourself lots of credit for getting the project to work ....  flangers can be a real PITA ...

and your work on the first two flangers was nothing short of total awesome !

solderman

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2010, 01:52:48 PM »
Thanks’ for the kind words. They are a big help and inspires me to go on. I will not quit until the threshold part also works. And I have made a couple of errors in the layout that is NOT corrected. So its not verified even if it “almost” works. The layout warnings are;

-The threshold part has some error. Cut the trace between Q1 and R36/37 and the rest will work.
-The the D9 diode on the PSU is ( or was ) turned wrong on the pic on page 3 . It should have the catod to 18V
- The speed, Range and Manual pot has lug 1&3 reversed. This is only a real problem and has to be fixed on speed since it’s a  rev log. The others work but  backwards.
- There is a no pad for the wire for the Vb to the Enhance pot on the Audio PCB  

Here is a crappy sound sample recorded Tele bridge>ADA>POD 2.0 Clean preamp>mixer>Soundcard.

http://solderman.fatabur.se/ada/ADA.mp3

Dave, thanks for the link. Besides the info in it, it gave me an idée.
Since I have mad the AD modular I will take this to even a further extent. I will;

- Do a layout for the LFO part of John Hollis Ultra flanger. It’s less complex and might work well with the ADA Audio part.
- I will brake out the threshold part so it can be built with voltage or noise gate or not used at all.
- I will make a layout for the Guyatone flanger Audio part but instead of a 3102 I will do it so it  can use the ADA or Ultra Flanger LFO part. AND the threshold part AND an odd/even switch.

Then it will be a very modular flanger. I think I will call it LEGO or Swatch flanger.  build all the parts and put them together to suite your taste.  ;D
The only bad sounding stomp box is an unbuilt stomp box. ;-)
//Take Care and build with passion

www.soldersound.com
xSolderman@soldersound.com (exlude x to mail)

oldschoolanalog

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2010, 02:50:43 PM »
Re: Threshold section.
Make sure C17 & C15 are connected to Ground. Not Vb.
Set it up as a noise gate first. This has been verified working in all builds previous to the VC idea. Use B10k for the pot (B100k was suggested for VC) and a J201 for the FET. The J201 has been used successfully for the noise gate function since moose V1. Loads of documentation on that.
I admire your wanting to do all the cool "modular" ideas you mentioned. However, I must respectfully suggest you should get this working stock before taking things to the next level. That way you will have a better understanding & point of reference.
Just $.02 opinion from a $.02 guy...  :icon_lol:
Cheers!
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 05:12:42 PM by oldschoolanalog »
Mystery lounge. No tables, chairs or waiters here. In fact, we're all quite alone.

12Bass

Re: The Worlsd smallest flangers....
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2010, 08:41:35 PM »
From solderman's sample, it sounds like the clock rate needs to be at least doubled to get into proper flanging zone.  As it is, it is more in the chorus/double-tracking range.  Glad you've got it working!
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan