Author Topic: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO  (Read 328220 times)

Jasonmatthew911

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Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #800 on: May 17, 2013, 05:07:52 PM »
Ok, so if I try an H11F1 Photo FET, where would each leg go and would this result in less volume loss and more killswitch chop?...I'm assuming that legs 3 & 5 aren't connected, so I would use the Anode and Cathode legs the same way you connected the N Mosfet and then just use 1 of the Output Term. legs or both?...If it's not too much trouble, do you think you could do another quick drawing with the H11F1 connected?...Thanks again

here you go...



You might get away with less than 20k for that top resistor (the 'on' resistance of the HF11 is quoted as about 200hms, so that ought to yield approx 100:1 attenuation)...you'd need to experiment to suit your own ears/situation (ideally, you want it as low as you can get away with).

I don't ever dabble with the 555 (I'm an MCU kind of guy & use PICs to generate square waves when needed)...so the 330R series limiting resistor was just a stab in the dark ...but it'll should get you up & away.


Hey, I finally got around to trying the H11F1...Basically there is no volume drop, and it has a very intense chop, but it has a much louder clicking sound than the VTL5C3 Vactrol...

On another note I ended up buying a Mad Doctor Stutter by IdiotBox since it was $99...When I opened it up, I noticed that it had a VTL5C1 with a regular 555, and an L78L05 to run on 5V...I also noticed that the input was connected to one leg of the LDR, and the output to the other leg, but there was no resistor going to GND...Which I had to add a 10K resistor to GND in order for the Chop effect to affect other effects connected before it....Finally I compared side by side with my breadboarded VTL5C3, 555 running on 9V Vs. the Mad Doctor Stutter which is a VTL5C1, 555/L78L05 running on 5V....And with mine you can clearly hear volume loss, whereas with the Mad Docter Stutter (VTL5C1, 555, L78L05/5V combo) I don't feel any signal loss at all.....Anyone have any idea why that is?...Is there much difference with using a VTL5C3 or VTL5C1?...Would the 5V Vs. 9V make a difference here?....The Mad Doc Stutter doesn't have the 10K resistor or any going to GND on the input or output and it seems to work just fine after other effects, plus it has no perceivable volume loss....Can anyone explain this to me?...Thanks

Jasonmatthew911

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Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #801 on: May 17, 2013, 06:35:36 PM »
I just re-tested my breadboarded circuit, this time without the 10K resistor on the output going to GND...Without that resistor there is no perceivable volume drop, and my chopping does chop effects connected before it, it just sounds more like a light Tremolo chop, not so intense...I'd like it to sound more intense, practically shutting the signal off and on....I also tried running my curcuit on 5V by using an LM7805 I had around, and this didn't affect the intensity of the chop either....All this with the VTL5C3...I'm starting to think that maybe the VTL5C1 could make a difference, if not some resistor values?.....Anyone here know what I can do to make my signal chopping more intense?...The H11F1 would've been perfect if it wasn't for the clicking, it clicks/pops a lot more than the LDR/LED Vactrols....I guess I'd like to know if the Vactrols could make a difference before I go and order a VTL5C1, cuz they're not that cheap?

Gurner

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #802 on: May 17, 2013, 07:47:27 PM »
when you say "without the 10k resistor" I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying   ....what 10k resistor?

Also re the ticking...personally, I only dabbled with the H11F1  briefly it was extremely quiet (drive my a PIC MCU)...are you sure the ticking isn't the 555? (which are notorious, unless implemented well)

Did you try a higher value of resistor (for the one I labelled 20k? in my hand scrawl)

Jasonmatthew911

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Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #803 on: May 18, 2013, 12:42:44 AM »
when you say "without the 10k resistor" I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying   ....what 10k resistor?

Also re the ticking...personally, I only dabbled with the H11F1  briefly it was extremely quiet (drive my a PIC MCU)...are you sure the ticking isn't the 555? (which are notorious, unless implemented well)

Did you try a higher value of resistor (for the one I labelled 20k? in my hand scrawl)


I only tried 20K and 10K for the 20K? of the H11F1...Should I try something like 100K there?...I don't think it's the 555 ticking, because I used the same 555 CMOS with the VTL5C3 and it doesn't tick like it does with the H11F1...It would be great if I could do this with the H11F1, but I would need to figure out how to get rid of the louder ticking sounds....

The 10K resistor I'm talking about was the one I originally had to implement from output to GND for my chopping to be more intense after other effect pedals, but a 10K also attenuates the signal a bit...Later I found that 100K attenuated the signal a little less, but the chops don't feel as intense...

By any chance, do you know what the main difference is between the VTL5C3 and the VTL5C1?

Gurner

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #804 on: May 18, 2013, 08:42:08 AM »

I only tried 20K and 10K for the 20K? of the H11F1...Should I try something like 100K there?...I don't think it's the 555 ticking, because I used the same 555 CMOS with the VTL5C3 and it doesn't tick like it does with the H11F1...It would be great if I could do this with the H11F1, but I would need to figure out how to get rid of the louder ticking sounds....

So just to make sure I'm understanding...you are saying that there's...

1. No tremolo effect
2. Not much tremolo effect

The strength of tremolo effect all depends on the lowest resistance that the H11F1 becomes (ie when gated on)....in combination with that 20k resistor. Ideally you need to find out the 'on' state resistance of the H11F1 ...you could do this quite easily by say applying say 1.5V battery at the input (vs a guitar signal), then manually gate the H11F1 on & off & noting down the junction voltage down for each scneario...



It may well be that the H11F1 is not being gated on sufficiently....is your gating voltage sufficently high? Have you tried taking the value of the 330R down (which was just a starter) ...this will ensure the H11F1 is gated on stronger (which will lower its resistance)...you could also try taking the value of the 20k resistor up (it was a guess-timate baesed on the H11F1's datasheet spec which has its 'on' resistance stated as 200 ohms)

« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 09:32:41 AM by Gurner »

Jasonmatthew911

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Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #805 on: May 18, 2013, 10:13:27 PM »

I only tried 20K and 10K for the 20K? of the H11F1...Should I try something like 100K there?...I don't think it's the 555 ticking, because I used the same 555 CMOS with the VTL5C3 and it doesn't tick like it does with the H11F1...It would be great if I could do this with the H11F1, but I would need to figure out how to get rid of the louder ticking sounds....

So just to make sure I'm understanding...you are saying that there's...

1. No tremolo effect
2. Not much tremolo effect

The strength of tremolo effect all depends on the lowest resistance that the H11F1 becomes (ie when gated on)....in combination with that 20k resistor. Ideally you need to find out the 'on' state resistance of the H11F1 ...you could do this quite easily by say applying say 1.5V battery at the input (vs a guitar signal), then manually gate the H11F1 on & off & noting down the junction voltage down for each scneario...



It may well be that the H11F1 is not being gated on sufficiently....is your gating voltage sufficently high? Have you tried taking the value of the 330R down (which was just a starter) ...this will ensure the H11F1 is gated on stronger (which will lower its resistance)...you could also try taking the value of the 20k resistor up (it was a guess-timate baesed on the H11F1's datasheet spec which has its 'on' resistance stated as 200 ohms)



I'm saying with my VTL5C3 my Tremolo effect is noticeable, but it's not that intense or as loud as the Mad Doc Tremolo, which consists of a VTL5C1, a 555, Four 1K resistors, L78L05 with .01uf cap for 5V operation, a 10uf Cap, a 100K Linear Rate Pot, and a 100K Linear Ratio Pot, and that's it...With just those parts it doesn't really have any perceivable volume loss, and the on/off chops are very intense, which is what I've been trying to get with the VTL5C3, but haven't been able to.

I did notice in the VTL datasheets, that the VTL5C1 has a 100db dynamic Range and 50M off resistance, whereas the VTL5C3 only has 75db Dynamic range and 10M off resistance....By what I'm hearing, I'm really starting to think that the VTL5C1 is what will make the difference for the chops to be more intense and slightly louder...I've tried a bunch of different values, but in the end there is probably nothing wrong with my circuit, just that it's not as intense as I'd like it to be...But the VTL5C1 in the Mad Doctor Stutter that only has a few parts as stated above seems to have the more intense ON/OFF that I'm looking for....

Don't you think that the VTL5C1 can make the difference since it has 25db more dynamic range than the VTL5C3, and it seems to sound more intense in my comparisons?

I've given up on the H11F1 because I've tried a bunch of different values, but still can't get rid of the ticking...There just seems to be less ticking issues using the VTL Vactrols...And with the VTL5C1, volume loss doesn't seem to be an issue.

Has anyone else here tried both VTL5C1  and VTL5C3 in the Tiny Trem cicuit, notice any differences?

markeebee

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #806 on: May 19, 2013, 11:48:34 AM »
I thought it would be interesting to use this circuit instead of the oscillator part of the Vibracaster, so that instead of wiggling the signal to ground it wiggles the second cathode (pin 8) of the valve.

Bugger me.  It works quite well.  No ticking to report.  Which is weird because I'm running it at 12v - I put a 10k trimmer between the 12V and pin 1 of the 555 and I expected to have to drop it quite a lot as Rob mentioned earlier in this thread.  But it seems to work perfectly well with the trimmer turned fully up.  The other weird thing is that the first 20% of the trimmer rotation slows the rate of the wiggle, the next 20% reduces the chop, and the rest removes the wiggle as you might expect.

Also, I used a 1kB rate pot in series with a 470R resistor, otherwise most of the range of wiggle was unuseable.

Hallmar

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #807 on: May 29, 2013, 07:22:10 AM »
How does the buffered version work with Distortion?
Honey, let's sell the children, move to Zanzibar and start taking Opium, rectaly.

Jdansti

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #808 on: June 04, 2013, 02:25:22 AM »
At the risk of being accused of double posting, after a request on another thread, I'm providing my Pulsinator build docs here since this thread inspired it.   Thanks to Rob and everyone else who's contributed to this.

I was in a big rush when I did this project, trying to meet the deadline on Thanksgiving day while doing family stuff. As such, I had to make some last minute changes. When I looked at my files last night, I couldn't find the very last change, so I took the last version I had, compared it to the actual build, and revised the PCB and layout art as shown below. (I hope it's right!  If anyone sees any errors, please let me know).

Here are some tips:

1) I replaced D4 with a jumper. I don't recall exactly why, but I think that it helped keep the effect really choppy in rotary switch position #1.

2) To keep the 555 timer from ticking, you need a big cap connected very close to Pin 8. I learned this from Jon Patton (Midwayfair) very near the deadline, so I modified the PCB after it was etched to accommodate the cap. The problem is that there's not much room next to the 555 for a gigantic cap, so I had to mount it off-board. The problem with that is now I had long wires connecting the cap to the board!  I might have been able to get by with a 1000μF cap mounted directly next to the chip, but since I didn't have room and had to mount it off board, I had to increase the value to 4700μF.

I've moved C10 to a location on the PCB that should give you more room. See the last two images below.  I haven't physically tried the version with the new cap location, so you should probably print out the layout and test your fit on paper before etching.

3) Re the LED/LDR combo, I just butt the LED and LDR together inside a piece of heat shrink tubing. Make sure you don't allow stray light to hit the LDR during testing or after it's boxed up.

4) You can use a CMOS version of the 555, but I tried both versions and found no difference.

5) You might want to breadboard this puppy before commiting to a PCB.

6) If you decide that you like just one of the smoothing filter settings, you could hard-wire it and skip the rotary switch.

7) You could replace the VR2 trimmer with a fixed resistor as all it does is determine the brightness if the rate indicator LED.

8 )  See the schematic for the functions of the other pots.

 I welcome comments and suggestions.










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prabuchresno

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #809 on: September 29, 2013, 01:06:06 PM »
cool nice one art... ;)


@jason , so is it behaving ''choppy'' now?...after your distortion?

Yes...Works great after the distortion now, chops are intense...I like!....That's what was missing, to connect 1 LDR leg to input and the other LDR leg to the output with the 10K resistor to GND...You should update this to make the TT usable after other effects....Great simple circuit.

Hi Jason, thx for your explanation of Art's picture. I've already change the schematic like yours, its cool. But the problem is if I turn it off, all effect in the chain is dead (I put this tremolo just before amp), so I have to always turn it on, fortunately in max position there is no pulse. Do you have any sugestion to fix this problem? thx

Drewmeyer

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #810 on: November 07, 2013, 07:13:28 PM »
So I'm looking to build the very original version of this tiny tremolo and just had a few questions about the vero layout (sorry if these were answered somewhere else throughout the thread, but I don't have time to look through 41 pages). First, how are the LEDs oriented? On the vero layout I can only 1 place where the 9v is attached. Is this the black or red wire from a battery snap? And where would the other wire go to complete the circuit?

deadastronaut

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #811 on: November 08, 2013, 03:41:59 AM »
@drew:

you want this one..

all leds have + above..

9v red wire..

ground = black wire ( goes to bottom row right side of the cut ..)

http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/chickpea/ts555cnvero.gif.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1


watch those cuts under IC, and 2 jumpers (blue)  there is a blue jumper under the IC  from 2-6....

rob.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 03:45:00 AM by deadastronaut »
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Drewmeyer

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #812 on: November 08, 2013, 11:07:51 PM »
@drew:

you want this one..

all leds have + above..

9v red wire..

ground = black wire ( goes to bottom row right side of the cut ..)

http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/chickpea/ts555cnvero.gif.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1


watch those cuts under IC, and 2 jumpers (blue)  there is a blue jumper under the IC  from 2-6....

rob.

Oh awesome, thanks! This really became a pretty cool little tremolo pedal. One problem, though. I got the led to turn on, but it won't blink. What should I check that could be wrong?

deadastronaut

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #813 on: November 09, 2013, 03:07:14 PM »
if you have tremolo then at least the led facing the ldr should be blinking...

do you get tremolo?..

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Drewmeyer

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #814 on: November 09, 2013, 05:54:09 PM »
if you have tremolo then at least the led facing the ldr should be blinking...

do you get tremolo?..


Well actually I haven't put in the ldr yet. I just made the blinking led circuit to make sure it worked correct before putting in the ldr. One thing to note. I didn't have a 4.7k pot so I replaced it with a 4.7k resistor, thinking I could get a sort of fixed speed, and now the leds blink one time and then remain off. Is that incorrect to sub the pot for a resistor, and could that be my problem.

deadastronaut

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #815 on: November 10, 2013, 04:14:38 AM »
you will need a pot, otherwise you may as well just have used  a flashing led.   :)

have you got a breadboard?..to experiment with
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Drewmeyer

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #816 on: November 14, 2013, 07:52:51 PM »
you will need a pot, otherwise you may as well just have used  a flashing led.   :)

have you got a breadboard?..to experiment with

Ah, well I see why it doesn't work then. I can't seem to find any 4.7K pots. Would a similar value like 5k work in its place?

garcho

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #817 on: November 14, 2013, 09:06:05 PM »
^ Absolutely.

Read this about the basics of potentiometers. (Dano/Beavis Audio)

Then read this about 'taper'.  (R.G./GEO)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 09:10:04 PM by garcho »
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Drewmeyer

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #818 on: November 14, 2013, 09:47:35 PM »
^ Absolutely.

Read this about the basics of potentiometers. (Dano/Beavis Audio)

Then read this about 'taper'.  (R.G./GEO)
Thanks, super informative! One thing though, why does a pot work while a resistor does not? It seems like they would be doing the same job in this case.

yurumbel

Re: tiny tremoloOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
« Reply #819 on: December 11, 2013, 07:01:53 AM »
DEADASTRONAUT:
I really like your project "A trem, a wah and a tremwah", I tried to do, but I not sure about the type and values of the pots, can you help me, please? best regards!