In the last fourteen years on the net, I've seen a lot of forums go sliding below the always-present level of underlying internet garbage as the tide of posts on "What's the best...?", "What's the worst...?", "Who's the best/worst/most/least..." rises. It's happened enough that seeing it makes my knee jerk like I hear Pavlov ringing a bell (to mix a few metaphors).

I don't know whether this is a cause or an effect. That's one way of saying that I don't know whether there is a slide can be reversed or whether this kind of posting is just a marker that pops up on the way down, and the slide is already irreversable. Or none of the above.

The rise of this kind of posting could indicate one of several things:
(1) most of the important stuff's been said, and the yada-yada fills in
(2) population shifts:
   (a) original population moves out for one reason or another
   (b) discovery of the forum by less-interested, less involved populations
   (c) irresistable "genetic drift" as people turn over one by one
(3) timeliness and state of maturity of the forum subject matter.

There are probably others.

What usually happens is when the blather level gets to a certain point, the providers of the serious forum content leave for less blathersome places on the net. There was a time when alt.guitar, rec.music.guitar, etc. actually had some useful discussion on them. They're sewers now, and have been for a long time.

I hope it's fixable. This one has stayed focused, interesting and usable for longer than the others.

To those of you who post the questions about "Who/what is the best/worst/most/least...?", I'm not trying to take a shot at you, or imply that you're ruining the place. It's entirely possible that posts like that are not causes at all. It's just that I see a pattern that I've seen before, and it bothers me.

Yes, I'm well aware that discussing your favorite/most hated/greatest/least/etc./etc. with your forum buddies is a valid and interesting thing to do. No dispute, and no implications.

Yes, I'm easily capable of ignoring posts that are titled that way, but as the percentage of titles that I auto-ignore rises, I start to recognize the pattern.

Yes, I'm aware this was discussed before, and the concensus was that a certain percentage of off-topic stuff was not harmful. I'm just wondering if it corresponds to Mark Twain's observation that "Quitting smoking is not hard to do. I've done it a thousand times."

We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum.

R.G.'s post is easily the most thoughtful post on forum etiquette I've read in a long time.  I know that many of us want to talk to other guitarists about their favorite players, music, etc, but O/T posts screw up the signal to noise ratio and drive away people who want to talk electronics.  

No one should have their feelings hurt, but we need to maintain a "business only" attitude so we can stay on target with why were all here.  If someone really wanted to, they could start a sister forum for all those who want to talk music instead of gear.

DIY stomp boxes:  it's why we're here.

travis

Disclaimer: I've only been around for about a year, so I don't pretend to speak as if I knew the long-term history of the forums. Some of you guys have ten times as many posts as I do, so apologies if things weren't like this in the good ol' days
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Sometimes OT topics are a nice diversion, but I agree 100% that when they grow to constitute the majority of posts, the forum degrades into a waste of time. In the case of Aron's forum, I've noticed that these type of topics are "bursty"... one thread will cause someone to start a related one, etc, people post to them for a little while, and then they usually die simultaneously once everyone's had a good laugh or gotten each others' opinions. Still, if I remember the thread post times correctly, this recent wave's topics were all posted in the last 24 hours...  one's even up to 80 replies. That's probably tantamount to a Klon Centaur Schem posting.

I think that they'll go away within a few days, but if not, maybe it's time to fight fire with fire and create threads in the vein of "Not OT - What's the most underrated opamp?"

Also, not to be self-glorifying, but the nature of this forum attracts a crowd that's generally more intelligent, focused, and goal-oriented (building the next stompbox or amp) than most others. As soon as someone completes a build and posts pictures, or a new schematic is posted, then discussion should go back to normal. You're right with (1) that if there's nothing new to discuss, we're left with Q/A on exiting builds (not necessarily bad) and OT postings.

That's it, it's the RunoffGroove guys' fault for putting an end to their amp emulation series!  :wink:

I think that for these OT posts you need to keep comments brief. Nobody want's to read half a page of why you think Fred Bloggs is such an under-rated guitarist. Just say "Fred Bloggs is good" and leave it at that.

You have to write stuff that people will actually have the time and patience to read. RG is so popular here because everything that he says is WELL WORTH reading.

Personaly, when I see "IMHO" I stop reading. I'm only interested in the facts, and actual personal experiences.

I agree. I haven't been here a year and I see it. Seems like it started with the new year. Alot of flame threads ushered in the new year, followed by humorous threads. Then many OT threads. Even this type of thread, has been popping up with more frequency.

Even the On-Topic threads are changing. Begginers will always ask the same questions. No problem, the answers should get better, more refined. But they don't. We're all guilty of the above now and again. It's still a good forum, and it will work itself out. If it doesn't, there will be a new one, and people will move on. Darwin always prevails.

you can always send the guys here:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=29,
to find even more readers for their (off-)topics...

Hmmm... Good point R.G.

You know guys, I'm not adversed to an off-topic forum, as long as it's civil, I don't mind. I just don't want it to be the "I don't agree with you forum and I hate you forum" that creates hard feelings that come into this one.

For me, I like constructive OT threads, but I agree, at some point they become a burden.

I've been a bit disappointed in the number of new and interesting (to me)forum topics for a few weeks now.  Maybe summer does something to people in the north.  (well, obviously it does...).  

Maybe we've scouted out 90% of the old schematics and we're running out of new ground?  What are the stompbox challenges out there?  Are they still meaningful, or have we climbed our Mt Everests?

Okay.

So, what is the best recorded guitar tone from the 70s?

























We did return to our regularly scheduled forum, didn't we?

Quote from: brettMaybe we've scouted out 90% of the old schematics and we're running out of new ground? What are the stompbox challenges out there? Are they still meaningful, or have we climbed our Mt Everests?

No way! Mass production has just made it stale. It reflects the whole of the popular music industry. CRAP!

Same with those multi-effects units. To me they all sound the same. CRAP!

But, they're cheap and something about there design effects the subconcious of the abundant 15 year old yuppies and their Beyonce wannabe girlfriends. (It must be tough being dellusional at 15 years old... but at least they can all relate to each other.  :shock: )

Music has not progressed far in the last decade. Think of how Stanley Kubrik saw this era and ask yourself why we aren't there yet!!!!

I was expecting King Crimson to come into their "world domination" phase by now... but it's still wierdos like me who are their only fans.  

Apparently, playing bass is fasionable nowadays (I saw it in a shoe shop window, so it must be true!). So WTF are all the Les Claypools, Tony Levins and Stanley Clarks?!?!?

We need world peace. Too many distractions at the moment.

i have not been around here long, i'm still fresh. i have found this forum and its inhabitants a refreshing breath of air in the overpowering amount of sludge that i usualy encounter on the net.
the quick answers, everyone being helpful and friendly has re-ignited my enthousiasm for soldering up a couple of my own. i thank you a lot for being here and doing this.
you know, i've browsed harmony central and all the effects sites for so long now and i've always looked up a bit to the JDs and the RGs and the arons and the ZVEXes... i think it's a great oppurtunity to be able to benefit from all that experience. i sure hope that this forum will stay its ground.
i have been trying to participate as much as i can, see the beginner's forum. i am inexperienced and new and that's why it's easy for me to relate to the other newbies around here. i think it's a great sign that the more experienced users also still have an eye out for the new guy. remarkable!


i am an administrator for a forum that has been run into the ground more than once. too big, too bloated, about 1 topic in 100 is on-topic. it gets to me. used to be great as well. used to be fun, loads of nice people, friendly and helpful. i guess it's just the internet tidal wave.
i do not know how or why a forum goes down. i wish i did. the admin team of my board has tried most anything to keep the slime away or at bay, at least, but we never really succeeded in keeping it from turning to waste. a shame, really.


i think lots of it has to do with the attitude of both older and newer users. if, for example, every time you go into the beginner's forum, you find the same questions over and over again, and i mean ALL the time, no-one is going to answer them. if the person asking is lucky, he will get a "search the forum, dude" but that's it. this is a knife that cuts both ways. the new users have to research their question (how to ask questions) and the old users have to put up with a certain amount of overlap. maybe i'm just stating the obvious here.
let's hope the scales don't tip!

Given the hype and the prices that are the basis of the guitar effects business, newbies are almost bound to be attracted here by the mistaken promise of being able to copy a commercial pedal for a fraction of the price. They want one shot straight to the pedal that they can't afford, but are cautious - hence they are almost bound to ask "Which is the best distortion pedal?" before embarking on their first project. For those who have not experimented long enough to recognize the ignorance (no insult) of that question, it's quite an intelligent starting point until we manage to disabuse them of the notion of "best...", and alerts us to the fact that somebody out there needs to be educated quickly.

On the other hand, raising topics such as valve amps, guitar mods, home-built guitars and favourite guitarists are all relevant and of interest to me. If enough people mention a guitarist I've never really listened to, I'm inclined to go out and find a recording.

About half the threads on this forum, I never read. The titles cause me to think that they don't fall in my area of interest. Most of the polls are lame ducks to me, so I don't (or can't) vote on them. But I do like to know how fellow guitarists' minds work, so keep the threads coming, and let me choose.  

;lkj

I agree with Travissk. They seem to come in spurts and then die out. No harm done.

I actually enjoy them because you hear about stuff that you normally wouldn't. I mean, when are all my metal friends going to say "hey, check out this bluegrass dude..."?

And I agree with Aron that as long as they don't degrade into namecalling, they are fine. I think the slide that R.G. refers to isn't really the topic but rather the response.

It seems that everyone here posts intelligent responses. The slide can be stopped. It takes two to tango. If everyone ignores the first inflamitory response they won't last long.

-Joe Hart

QuoteMaybe no one needs a fuzz schematic this week...

:shock:

Time stood still, a creepy feeling came over me...and I understood that it *wasn't* normal to want a new one EVERY week... :wink:

[Apologies for having a larf in an interesting thread.  REALLY, 99% of my posts are technical stuff.]

A solution found by other forums is to have a "by the watercooler" section where you can post all your bullsh*t and best ofs and whatevers leaving the main forum for the real subjects.
Aharon

Here's what I want to know:  What's the best "What's the best 'What's the best' thread" ?

That is, of all the commentaries on "What's the best?" threads that you've seen, which one is REALLY the best? :wink:

Sometimes, when I run into people who've visited Niagara Falls, I pull their leg by asking them if they saw the Famous Wax Museum Wax Museum, the one that has was replicas of wax museums (if you've been to Niagara Falls, you'll get the joke).

Eminent developmental psychologist K. Warner Schaie (whom I can claim to have seen in his pajamas; it was a conference and a late night fire alarm sent everyone into the hotel lobby, don't ask) proposed a model of human intellectual development in the late 1970's where he proposed that information gathering strategies varied across life stages.  In childhood, we gather information almost in a nondiscriminating passive way, almost like a dust mop - because it's there.  In early adulthood, we seek and gather information for the purposes of being sociosexually competitive; i.e., information that will put us ahead of others in some manner (hence the preponderance of gossip magazines and shows aimed at young adults).  In mid-adulthood, during the parental and career years, we gather information that serves our immediate practical needs, and tend to ignore other information.  Finally, during our later adult years, we tend to be much more discriminating in our information seeking, often approaching new information with the attitude "Why do I need to know this?".

The internet, and forums in particular, seem to be oriented towards those individuals in the second category, with a modicum of input/activity from those in the third.  Hence its content.

A guy goes to a music store and starts looking at the racks full of guitars.
Ater a while he asks the guy next to him which one does he think is the best? to which the guy replies:I've heard the red ones play really good!.
Aharon

PS:You can transpose that to cars,skates or anything else and feel free to use any colour you like to make your point.

;lkj

The OT posts aren't always totally off the mark, and everyone's interested in different things. Forums aren't available for every topic, so there's bound to be some overlap. I just read what I want and skip the rest.

If 85 people reply to a post, then someone must be interested in it. The nice thing about this forum is that all 85 posts are neatly tucked away under one heading, so it's really not a big deal. It won't become a sewer. It's gotten better overall, with more users/ideas and almost instant help with problems. Thanks Aron!

-Joe