Author Topic: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help  (Read 10730 times)

rocket8810

Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« on: May 21, 2014, 04:37:44 PM »
I've been working on building a wow-fuzz based on the perfboard layout from sinner that I got from turretboard.org. I know it should work, as it has been verified, but no matter what I've done I can't get the wah section to work. The fuzz section is perfect, but when the wah pot is turned it doesn't do anything.

So to make a long story short, I built this like 6months ago I'm tired of trying to debug the perf layout. I actually put a posting up to get help to debug it here, and I did everything I could to figure it out, but nothing got it working. So I got to thinking since I do my builds on stripboard, I want to redo the entire circuit on stripboard. I recently started drawing my own layouts, and was hoping someone could take a look at what I did to see if what I did matches the schematic, and the perfboard layout before I build it or if someone could help me out and make a good stripboard layout.

Since the wah section is the same as the colorsound wow-wah, I looked to find a stripboard layout to use, but haven't found anything.

FYI, the only thing that I've done that deviates from the actual wah section is the inductor I'm using as 600mH rather than 800mh, as I can't find one with that high on an inductance. Thanks in advance guys, I really hope to finally build this, been dying to finally have a working wow-fuzz.

Schematic:


Stripboard Layout:


Perfboard Layout:

duck_arse

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2014, 09:34:42 AM »
if I might be so bold as to suggest a look at the pinout in this datasheet ...........

http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet/fairchild/BC184L.pdf

.........

rocket8810

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2014, 11:31:26 AM »
I'll take a look at the transistor pinout again. In the schematic is it BCE, rather than CBE? Cause I've been having issues lately switching B for C. Is that the only thing glaringly wrong with the layouts? Btw, thanks duck

edit: I checked the schematic and the layout to make sure that B, C, and E of the transistors are done correctly and connections are correct, but the transistor pinout is actually BCE. So in order to use these layouts the legs of the transistors will need to be twisted. I'm going to try to make changes to the layouts to mimic the pinout of the transistor. I also made a few corrections to the layout, as there were some problems with the wah section, and was able to shrink the layout a bit. Not sure if the corrections made were all the mistakes.


« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 07:09:53 PM by rocket8810 »

duck_arse

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2014, 09:01:57 AM »
if you have a real, honest to goodness, marked-as-such, BC184L transistor, it will be, according to the fairchild datasheet, B-C-E, flat down, pins pointing to you. the circuit diagrams shows no component orientation, that is part of the translation needed whilst doing layouts.



^ this layout only vaguely indicates the transistor connections, not it's orientation as there is no flat shown. AND THE PIN SEQUENCE DOES NOT MATCH THE DATASHEET. C-B-E is wrong.

so, follow the circuit diagram with respect to the layout, and see if the transistor base is in the right place. you've done this. if you need to bend your transistor leads to make the layout correctly match the circuit, either change the transistors to match the layout, or change the layout to match the transistors. you're doing this. there is no need to bend the leads, you'll only confuse yourself.

is the second posted layout the corrected one, with b-c-e layout? if it is, get back into the layout program, and DRAW the transistor shape, so we know our curved from our flat AND mark the pads with little e's, b's and c's, so there will be no confusions, ever again. do the same for the fuzz section, after checking the datasheet and connections again.

rocket8810

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2014, 09:42:19 AM »
I do have honest to goodness bc184l transistors as well as bc184lc's both from Fairchild. I built the layout according to how the transistor is on the schematic, not the transistor pinout. On the schematic the collector is on top of the base, which is why the layout reflects this. In the notes below I put the pinout for the transistors, as they are both in the same orientation. So to make the pinout on the layout match the pinout of the transistors, ie. not have to bend the transistor legs when you insert them into the board. The second version of the layout is still in the CBE orientation, I'm working to find an easy way to change the layout to a BCE pinout without having  to basically redo the whole layout.

duck_arse

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2014, 09:55:30 AM »
the schematic, any schematic, only shows the arangement electronics-wise. it should not be used as a mechanical guide, there is no mechanical information provided. the part numbers lead you to a datasheet, with the correct pinouts shown. you then need to transfer the mechanical info from the datasheet to the pcb layout. the layout provides ONLY mecanical data, nothing about what's insides the parts, or what they do in the circuit.

you won't (shouldn't) need to redo the whole layout. just concentrate on the three lines for each transistor, they should only need to be moved by one or two rows, this way or that. keep at it.

rocket8810

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2014, 11:27:54 AM »
That does make sense to look at the transistor pinout while looking at the schematic, and building the layout  *smacks forehead*. I had just been concentrating on learning and figuring out how to create my own layouts that I didn't think about that. I'll mess around with the layout when I get home from work to get the pinout on the layout matching the resistor. If that's the only mistake then I should be good to go on the build and anyone else can use it if they want. Glad to be moving away from being a noob, no matter how slow. Thanks for the help duck, and the guidance I want to learn rather then just have someone do it for me.

joegagan

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2014, 01:18:50 PM »
zach, interesting. i also asked thru ebay, do you have the nylon hoop for the pot? when i prep the 100k lin pots for colorsound i cut the shaft to 5/16" and put a knurl on it so the hoop grabs it better.

for the sake of general info on this thread, i have found that most colorsounds ( both inductor and inductorless ) use a 100k lin , just as the layouts and schem above show, and are set to sweep from approx 45k to 100k. when setting the nylon hoop, be careful that the over-run to actuate the switch does not stress the pot past it's internal stop. it should run right up to the  pot stop when switch is at depressed position.

this is a very cool build, looking forward to the progress! :icon_twisted: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_idea: :icon_exclaim: :icon_eek: :icon_cool:

rocket8810

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2014, 06:08:26 PM »
Well I tried to rearrange the layout for the actual pinout of the transistors, and it looks like it matches properly. Once I went to make the changes, and keep all the resistors flat it became a complete redo.

V3:


V4:


Not too happy with the layouts now, I just feel like they're messy and bigger then they could be. They just seem........ugly. :-[

duck_arse

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2014, 11:31:23 AM »
pm sent - looks like you're well on the way ......

rocket8810

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2014, 07:49:05 PM »
Thanks to the help of Duck, I've been working to clean up both layouts, keep all resistors flat, and keep the size of the boards down. I think I've finally figured it out with the proper transistor pinout, rather than the "CBE" seen in the schematic.

A couple of notes: I changed the pinout for the inductor, since I had one custom El Rad style made for me by Joe, rather than use the halo I had. Also, the trimmer is 47k in the D*A*M reissue, which I may use instead of the 5k. Also, as of now this has not been verified yet.



I'm going to try building the boards to verify them sometime next week. But, in the meantime, if someone with a better set of eyes could just check both of them out for me to make sure I didn't miss something stupid compared to the schematic i would really appreciate. Once built I will post verification so anyone can build one of their own.

I think I found a way for me to check my layouts very accurately, by tracing the connections on the schematic in different colors, then doing the same on the layout to make sure that things line up the way the should, and check for missed connections/missing cuts. Ignore the layouts above, I know there are errors in each of them.

Gratuitous shots of the colorsound enclosure that will receive the completed effect.






joegagan

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2014, 04:32:38 AM »
looking good! i didn't check your layouts, but mechanically i like this. looks like the pot is a nice fit!

there is something just cool about those big bad enclosures.

rocket8810

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2014, 10:39:56 PM »
totally agree joe. i really wish i could get more of them for a good price, or at least have someone make them. i like the beefiness of them and i feel like you get much more sweep from them compared to the typical crybaby. i do have the dimensions and cad drawing of the box so maybe someone and i can reproduce them as a wah enclosure alternative. btw, joe i got the inductor, do i use the two long pins or the two short pins, or do i use one long and one short when i connect it to the board.

joegagan

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2014, 12:00:19 AM »
Oh, i possibly missed putting the little pinout sheet in the box. There are two redundant pins, the two long are connected and the two short are connected. Use one of each.

rocket8810

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2014, 12:38:16 AM »
it was there, but i just want to make sure before i cut anything. i want this to go off as good as possible, and prevent as many stupid human errors as i can. so to be clear i use 1 long and 1 short, right?

joegagan

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2014, 01:19:53 AM »
correct!
sorry i don't have time to dig into your layouts and that, but i think you are asking the right questions, the guys here are great.

agree about the colorsound type enclosures. you can get a korea made knockoff  wah under several brands, tronix, cactus, coron, RMS, excel, maybe others. some have the nylon hoop and some have a regular rack and spur gear.

i have one, it sounds damn close to a 90s RI colorsound inductorless, except the pot is cheap and has weird taper: ( note the nice caps)



duck_arse

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2014, 06:52:50 AM »
looking at the original lehrberg schem ^, the fuzz section input cap shows "0.1nF" . I woulda thort 100pF was way too small in front of a fuzzface circuit. anyone got a verified value here?

on the V5 wah layout, your bottom inductor connection is short to the "wah 2". a cut is missing (?) under the 470k.

as for trimpots, I find it best to get one, and dry-fit it into a bit of vero, then a transistor or a cap, whichever is going near and causing size probs, next to, just to see what the clearances are like. I usually get it wrong, or stupidly change it later, but ..... and you need to think about how you will access any trimmer as to whether you vertical or horizontal it.

rocket8810

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2014, 03:32:21 PM »
good catch duck, there should be a cut before under that 470k.  i thought i had one there, but must have moved it or something. i told you i thought i would miss something stupid  :icon_redface:.

as for the fuzz input cap, according to the schematic it should be .1nF, but in the perfboard layout from sinner, it's actually 100nF input ad 100nF output, so i'll probably use those values, cause i completely agree that .1nF is just way too low, and will probably make it too thin and treblely sounding for my taste.

also, comparing the schematic to the perfboard layout there i noticed that there are a few differences in the wah section too. in the schematic there is a 10uF cap parallel to 100k to ground, in the perf layout its 4.7uF. and there is also a 470r resistor that connects the 100k/10uF to ground that connects to 470k that goes to the base of Q2.

now i'm not which is correct, the schematic or the perfboard layout. i also checked to find the schematic i had and looked just at the wah section, which is no different from the regular colorsound wah, and its the same that's in the schematic i posted earlier except it loos like the 470k from collector Q1 to base Q2, is connected to the 470k .22uF junction on the same row as the inductor.

Here it is from  fuzzcentral
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 03:56:48 PM by rocket8810 »

rocket8810

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2014, 03:59:50 PM »
so i went searching the bowels of the internet, and DIYSB threads and i think the schematic that i originally posted was thought to be correct, but is not. the wah section should look like the one from fuzzcentral. here is the "verified" schematic for the wow-fuzz.



here's the thread, http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=56208.0, where i found the corrected schematic.

so i went back and modified the V5 layout to mimic missing link. since this is the first wah i've build does that change make sense that connection should be there?

here is the new layout, V6, corrected to match the corrected schematic, it's still unverified.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 04:06:44 PM by rocket8810 »

duck_arse

Re: Colorsound Wow-Fuzz Layout Help
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2014, 10:15:56 AM »
when in doubt .....
http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/wahpedl/wahped.htm
you will have read this page many times by now, of course.



tell me again, what do you need me for? did any of the waybackers note the fuzz cap value? it might be worth posting a redrawn and corrected circuit diagram, with your completed layouts, in a new thread, when the time comes. I'll look your latest tomorrow.