Author Topic: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?  (Read 42641 times)

Electric Warrior

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2009, 10:21:53 AM »
No gating problems here. I believe the hfes are around 70, 70, 90.
Got ten OC75s and swapped them around until I found a combination that I liked :)

jrod

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2009, 10:24:03 AM »
No gating problems here. I believe the hfes are around 70, 70, 90.

Thanks...I'll check my bias again!

liquids

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2009, 10:56:39 AM »
and a rather common supro amp...
and his distant mic'ing techniques. distance equals depth!

Time affects all memories, so take this with that in mind...

I remember an article from well over a decade ago, when I was a teenager, a time  when I read the guitar magazines I collected nearly every day, over and over.  There was little music in my house growing up.  I had little to no idea who Zeppelin or Page were at the time, actually, I only knew from the magazines that stairway was a famous rock song, which I'd probably never even heard at the time (!)...however I read an article with Page saying that a lot of his recorded tones were, similarly, about 'good micing technique.'  Sometimes it was the sound of two mics on the same amp, for example.  My impression was that he was mostly against mixer board EQing of the guitar tone all together.   He was very enthusiastic about micing the amp from the rear, saying outside of some phase reversal, if needed, mic positioning was the best EQ.   I remember it vividly, because it made a strong impression on me, and seemed very creative to me at the time even if it's now old hat.   I've used that advise as a springboard for my own tastes and findings.

I watched the dvd this weekend.   I was startled at how 'atonal' that fuzz sound pedal he used was, when he was talking about getting a fuzz pedal (whatever it was), and how it sounded on it's own playing some of those riffs, compared to a clean sound.  

Likewise, I think he takes the award for most ridiculous 'guitar faces'!   ;D
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 10:58:13 AM by liquids »
Breadboard it!

Electric Warrior

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2009, 11:16:27 AM »
 My impression was that he was mostly against mixer board EQing of the guitar tone all together.   He was very enthusiastic about micing the amp from the rear, saying outside of some phase reversal, if needed, mic positioning was the best EQ.   I remember it vividly, because it made a strong impression on me, and seemed very creative to me at the time even if it's now old hat.   I've used that advise as a springboard for my own tastes and findings.

It's an excellent advice. I wouldn't call it creative, though. It's just good audio engineering.

bigchasbroon

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2009, 01:26:36 PM »

I also read somewhere that Mayer has re-issued a replica of the Tonbender he made for Page anyone know about that?

You probably guessed by now I have been a big Zep fan since puberty.
dunno about a mayer TB but theres just been a Gary Hurst mk1 reissue seems abit pricey, ive got a magazine article somewhere where it tells you the Ge trannies that are in it ill try dig it out.
http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/guitars/round-up-8-great-fuzz-pedals-225950/4


Electric Warrior

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2009, 01:52:14 PM »
One OC75 and two 2G381.
And here's the Mayer pedal: http://....org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17&hilit=page+1+roger+mayer

Quackzed

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2009, 03:46:36 PM »
clips, clips...
doot-da-do-da-do...
sha-boom-sha-boom boom. :icon_mrgreen:
nothing says forever like a solid block of liquid nails!!!

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2009, 10:40:08 PM »
OK here are some Voltage readings ,remember I changed a couple of resistors (read the previous posts)as well as bypassing the 2k7 with a 1uf cap.
BATTERY 9.3v > 100R > 9.0v
Q1 2n3904   C 8.39v                    Q2 2n2222  C 2.26v           Q3 2n5088  C 4.52v
                    B   .73v                                      B .69v                              B 2.26v
                    E 0                                            E 70.2mv                          E 1.65v

Sound Clips - These were recorded with a Hamer Durango (American Standard Strat clone) PU sw in second position (bridge+middle)
                    into the TBMKII > into my modded (complete rebuild all new components with Hammond OT)(not my high gain EVJ)
                    Valve Jr with the 12" Lady Luck  > MXL 990 large diaphram condensor mic >Tascam US144 > Reaper DAW
                    For fairness no EQ ,FX,or compression just the dry tracks. The mic was 12" out dead center.

The amp's volume was at 9 o'clock, The TB volume at 30% Attack just a hair from max and the Fuzz set to 4.5v
The sustain switch was off for the Zep clip, In the sustain switch demo I just turned it on and off several times.
 (please excuse my sloppy playing) TonebenderMK_II  =WholeLotta Love/Rover      
                                                       TB_MK_II =SustainSwitch Demo                   http://vibecat.com/brymusfx

So how do my Voltages look ?
Swapping the 47K for a 10k (per Gus) raised the V on Q2's base.
Swapping the Q1 feedback resistor from 470k to 1M (per Gus and Mac) raised the V on the collector
And adding the 1uf cap on a switch to bypass the 2k7 on Q1s emiter (per Mac) didnt affect the voltages but what a differance in sustain!

I didnt record the Fuzz knob turned up ,it raises the voltage on Q3s collector and really increases the volume as it smooths out the fuzz.
Could be useful when more boost is needed.

I am open to any critisism,tips I think its pretty close now. I am real happy with it ,this one is gonna make it off the breadboard for sure !!!,

Is there any way to upload sound clips here? I hate linking all the time.
Thanks again for all the help.-Joe Hart ,EW ,Dragonfly
Especially To RDV,Mac, and Gus or this pedal wouldnt sound half as good as it does now.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 11:32:09 PM by Brymus »
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

mac

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2009, 10:54:09 AM »
Quote
Is there any way to upload sound clips here? I hate linking all the time.
Thanks again for all the help.-Joe Hart ,EW ,Dragonfly
Especially To RDV,Mac, and Gus or this pedal wouldnt sound half as good as it does now.

De nada!
To upload clips and schematics here you need a place in the gallery, ask Aron or Andrew.

mac
mac@mac-pc:~$ sudo apt-get install ECC83 EL84

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2009, 01:13:29 PM »
Again thanks for the help Mac
Is there anything else I can do to get it closer to the Zep tone ? IMO the bass could be a little tighter I tried swapping caps to no avail.
How do the voltages look ?

What did you guys think of the sound clips ?

To answer a question from earlier in the thread RDVs and Dragonfly's versions sound about the same with the values in the schematics.
Dragonfly's has a little less high end from the 22n between Q2 and Q3 and the tone control is a high cut type,which cuts the volume as you cut the high end.
Also the 10uf cap on the attack makes it oscillate at max attack.
For ME or IMO I wouldnt use the tone control it would be at max all the time,and I liked the tone better w/o the 22n cap,YMMV

One thing that suprised me is how quiet this pedal is,no hiss.I totaly recomend it for a good fuzz build.
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2009, 05:10:18 PM »
Eureka !!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
I only tried swapping the coupling caps. :icon_redface:
Just to see what would happen I started swapping the "attack" cap... :icon_rolleyes:
Changing the 4u7 "attack" cap to a 2u2 was the answer even a 1uf sounds tight but I like the 2u2 best. :icon_mrgreen:
I will put them on a switch, this pedal has become super versatile now.I freakin LOVE it.
I wont be able to record any clips today hopefully tommorow, I will demonstrate the difference,but its a really simple circuit to try on your breadboard.
I am gonna gut my current FF and box it in that,its that good IMO

I am guessing since no -one is commenting on the soundclips, everyone is just being polite and not saying anything...
Which is odd as the few people who have heard live were in awe at how close it is to my target sound.
Maybe they were just being polite too. :icon_redface:
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 05:14:20 PM by Brymus »
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Electric Warrior

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2009, 06:21:13 PM »
I think it sounds very trebly and buzzy. the germanium version is a fair bit thicker and smoother sounding.

Tony Forestiere

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2009, 06:42:07 PM »
Quote
I think it sounds very trebly and buzzy.
I tend to agree, but we don't know if the recording method has a play in the sound. I would like to wait for the new clips changing the "attack" caps.  :icon_wink:
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Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2009, 08:06:50 PM »
Quote
I think it sounds very trebly and buzzy.
I tend to agree, but we don't know if the recording method has a play in the sound. I would like to wait for the new clips changing the "attack" caps.  :icon_wink:
1)Thanks I assumed Ge would be smoother,Dragonfl's is less trebly. I assume all Si Fuzz types to be a bit "buzzy"
which is why I asked for help with this to get a more Ge type sound.
2)Recording...partly my EVJ is set up for my Jackson's HBs    my Hamer's single coils are pretty bright in comparision.
Through my Crate its dark W/O turning up the treble on the amp.
3) the attack cap mod makes it even more trebly  :-\
of course this is just IMO which is why I asked for feedback.
4) I agree to some extent with both comments,thanx

 any one else care to comment ?

You can say it sounds like poo in your opinion because....of X and Y and I wont be offended, I rather value the opinoins here.

Now if you were to say "it sounds like ran over dog crap and you suck"  that would be different altogether
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

liquids

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2009, 10:06:07 PM »
1)Thanks I assumed Ge would be smoother,Dragonfl's is less trebly. I assume all Si Fuzz types to be a bit "buzzy"
which is why I asked for help with this to get a more Ge type sound.


Many options that come to mind....here are three
1) - what value pulldown resistor are you using, if any?  If you have one, try making it a 100k pot instead, on the breadboard.  If not, add one and try it.  this will lowering the input impedance, which will will load the pickups and make it a darker and less 'direct' sounding.  Part of that ge fuzz sound is poor input impedance characteristics.  Few if any silicon transistors have such poor input impedances as the GEs, but this can sort of simulate that effect.      If you do this,  It will have nicer cleanup with the volume knob...but you will loose some apparent gain, as well, from 100k down...try that.

2) Put a small value cap across one, two, or all the collector resistors...this will reduce some high end, though it isn't very controllable beyond picking different values.  And trying all the options could drive you mad, but it should smooth the high end and sound less buzzy.

3) Add a low pass tone control...believe it or not, something active might be what your after, even...

« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 10:09:04 PM by liquids »
Breadboard it!

Quackzed

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2010, 04:12:01 PM »
it definately has that loose yet edgy vibe to it. very pagey though it does sound  a tad harsh, that pull down/ impedence idea is good and it sounds like you have gain to spare on that build. i'd try it and don't dismiss it as 'dulling ' till you can step away and evaluate it with fresh ears.

nothing says forever like a solid block of liquid nails!!!

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2010, 06:35:52 PM »
1)Thanks I assumed Ge would be smoother,Dragonfl's is less trebly. I assume all Si Fuzz types to be a bit "buzzy"
which is why I asked for help with this to get a more Ge type sound.


Many options that come to mind....here are three
1) - what value pulldown resistor are you using, if any?  If you have one, try making it a 100k pot instead, on the breadboard.  If not, add one and try it.  this will lowering the input impedance, which will will load the pickups and make it a darker and less 'direct' sounding.  Part of that ge fuzz sound is poor input impedance characteristics.  Few if any silicon transistors have such poor input impedances as the GEs, but this can sort of simulate that effect.      If you do this,  It will have nicer cleanup with the volume knob...but you will loose some apparent gain, as well, from 100k down...try that.

2) Put a small value cap across one, two, or all the collector resistors...this will reduce some high end, though it isn't very controllable beyond picking different values.  And trying all the options could drive you mad, but it should smooth the high end and sound less buzzy.

3) Add a low pass tone control...believe it or not, something active might be what your after, even...


Thanx,
1)I have a 1meg pull  down resistor as per both schematics,I will try that - I like the way it works in my Omega.
2) whats the difference between that and what Dragonfly did by putting it between the two collectors  Q2>Q3 ?
3) Again would you recommend something different from the one Dragonfly did ?

Quackezd  thanx  :icon_cool: :icon_cool:
Excellent advice,I forget that most times,and your right once I am used to the way something sounds the immediate result of a change sounds different then when I approach it fresh,as hearing it for the first time with out a referance sound still fresh in my head.

I now have some stuff to try out,thanx and please any other thoughts are more than welcome.

From the feedback I am getting now I can see why Dragonfly modded his the way he did. Very Educational indeed !
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

Quackzed

Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2010, 09:06:30 PM »
i had built one a while back, using rdv's schematic for npn silicon trannies and really dug it. but after letting a fellow zep fan 'borrow it' indefinately  :D. and not having the heart to separate him from it, i think it's time i built another.
if you try any of the tweaks  mentioned i'd love to hear your opinion. i think i'll socket the transistors and try that fuzz cap change you mentioned, see if it tightens it up a bit.
as well as an impedence trimmer.
 :icon_cool:


nothing says forever like a solid block of liquid nails!!!

Brymus

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2010, 03:53:45 AM »
Quackezd
The impedance trimmer didn't seem to do much tone wise until it was bleeding a significant amount of signal to ground.
Which could be better done set up as a divider than a resistor.
The cap across the collector only smoothed it when applied to Q2,it actually seemed to have the opposite effect when applied to Q3s collector  :icon_eek:.
Adding a 22n across Q2's collector and upping the 22n between Q2 and Q3 per dragonfly's build to 47n indeed tamed most the high end and made the pedal more "wooly" and a fair bit smoother but still "buzzy" underneath IMO .
IDK if there is a way to get the buzzy sound out of a Si tonebender.
Still its a great pedal,one just cant expect it to sound like a Ge build I guess.

Have you breadboarded it yet what did you find,hear?
I'm no EE or even a tech,just a monkey with a soldering iron that can read,and follow instructions. ;D
My now defunct band http://www.facebook.com/TheZedLeppelinExperience

GibsonGM

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Re: "It Might Get Loud" Pages Tonebender?
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2010, 08:48:18 AM »
Brymus, I enjoyed your clips! Esp. the tone in "The Rover".  I can see this as a nice fuzz build for getting some of the 'vibe' of the early 70's as opposed to late 60's; going to try one myself.   I saw the movie last night, came upstairs and figured out Kashmir after not having tried for 20 years (I'm 38...), lol.  10 mins. later and it's on my set list (just had to see Jimmy doing the descending riff, ha ha).  It was GREAT to see those guys flubbing up, raw sound w/o engineering and all.  Very inspirational!

I think if it was used with a Marshall and large cab, you'd find it to have a bit fuller tone!  With some more tweaking I believe the Si 'buzz' might be able to be mitigated some more. Will have to play around with that.
Then again, there's always going back to the Ge model if one desires!!

~Mike
MXR Dist +, TS9/808, Easyvibe, Big Muff Pi, Blues Breaker, Guv'nor.  MOSFace, MOS Boost,  BJT boosts - LPB-2, buffers, Phuncgnosis, FF, Orange Sunshine & others, Bazz Fuss, Tonemender, Little Gem, Orange Squeezer, Ruby Tuby, filters, octaves, trems...