Author Topic: Way Huge pcb...  (Read 60407 times)

smoguzbenjamin

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #140 on: February 18, 2004, 12:08:50 PM »
Why aren't they available anymore? Honestly if there is enough demand for a matched FET array wouldn't someone out there wanna produce one? :?
I don't like Holland. Nobody has the transistors I want.

Fret Wire

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #141 on: February 18, 2004, 12:16:11 PM »
Quote from: Mark Hammer
Matched JFET arrays such as the AM9711 (I think that's the number) were used for several phasers long ago, such as the first Ross phasers.  We'd still be using them or their equivalents....IF they were available.  Sadly, they aren't.


Thanks for the info Mark. What a shame, that would have been nice.  :cry:
Fret Wire
(Keyser Soze)

moosapotamus

Re: way huge pcb
« Reply #142 on: February 18, 2004, 01:04:55 PM »
Quote from: rhinson
...i'd like to see someone use this transistor array idea on something that i don't think is out there yet on anyone's free site--the univox superfuzz...

 8)  8)  8)

~ Charlie
moosapotamus.net
"I tend to like anything that I think sounds good."

Mr.Huge

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #143 on: February 18, 2004, 01:21:56 PM »
Thanks to everyone for they’re support. I really like the community here. I wish something like this were around when I started building. You cats rule.

However, I really get tired of the people who whine about vintage pedal prices and then say the pedal sucks. I don’t get that. If you don’t like Way Huge (or any other brand) pedals and think they’re just stupid clones don’t buy one. What the @#$% do I care, I don’t get the money.
I thought this forum was to help people build pedals… Not throw down insults and talk shit about pedals you can’t afford. That’s just a waist of everyone’s time. I don’t write posts to slag other people or pedals. That doesn’t further the knowledge pool or help anyone.

Here’s a little scenario:
I’d like to buy an original Tycobrahe Octavia, but I’m not willing to pay $800.00 for one.
I think they kick ass…
Could I build a clone?
Of course.
Will I?
Probably.
Will mine sound as good?
Yes, probably better.
Will I still want an original?
YES!
Why?
Because, Jeff Beck and Mike Landau used them.
So when I look at my pedal board I’d rather see an original just because of the connection with the players I admire. My Octavia will sound great and I will be totally happy with the tone.

Any way…

If my memory serves me, I think there are only a total of around 4000 Way Huge pedals (for the whole line). That’s nothing in the grand scheme of pedals.

I used the quad array because:
1)   It has 4 perfectly matched transistors
2)   I would have consistency from one pedal to another
3)   It tends to be quieter than 4 discrete transistors
4)   It was only one part to stuff

One of my main design objectives was to have consistency in the pedals. So, all Pickles or Llamas would sound the same.
I used the quad array on the first Aqua-Puss, but found that all the traces going to and from the array created cross talk and made the early AP-1’s a bit darker and nosier.

The original Retail price of a Swollen Pickle (from 1995-1999) was $180.00. It would sell for about $120 - $180.

Cheers,
-Mr. Huge

PS: My apologies to Jack and RG for mixing them up.

Give me a break; I’m a @#$%ing guitar player!
BEN:   Mos Eisley Spaceport. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

LUKE:   But I was going into Toshi Station to pick up some power converters...

VADER:   I find your lack of faith disturbing.

AL

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #144 on: February 18, 2004, 01:57:03 PM »
I'd just like to put in my 2 cents and say thanks to Mr. Huge for his generous attitude and information.  This is one of the most informative and fun threads I've ever read.  And while it may be easy to clone a BMP in 2004, the information that is now taken for granted wasn't readily available (to my knowlege) in 1995.  So thanks again and please stick around.

AL

aron

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #145 on: February 18, 2004, 02:27:56 PM »
There are several VERY GOOD points in here:


Quote
Will I still want an original?
YES!


So true. For most of us, if someone were to give us an original or offer it to us at an affordable price, most of us would go for it. Having the original is fun.

Quote
1) It has 4 perfectly matched transistors
2) I would have consistency from one pedal to another
3) It tends to be quieter than 4 discrete transistors
4) It was only one part to stuff


These points are so important. I know most of you that have built more than one copy of a pedal know that there are variations. Sometimes more than we care to admit. Having consistency when selling a commercial product is pretty important. Even for giving/making pedals for friends.


Quote
Thanks to everyone for they’re support. I really like the community here.


We hope it stays this way.

Thanks,

Aron

R.G.

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #146 on: February 18, 2004, 02:30:32 PM »
Quote
i'd like to see someone use this transistor array idea on something that i don't think is out there yet on anyone's free site--the univox superfuzz.

The univox superfuzz does fit with an array solution better than the BMP. The two octave generator transistors could actually benefit from being matched. The CA30xx arrays are better for this than the MPQ arrays because there is one more transistor and two of them are internally connected for a differential pair.

The GEO layout for the Superfuzz is or will soon be on General Guitar Gadgets, I believe.

Quote
Honestly if there is enough demand for a matched FET array wouldn't someone out there wanna produce one?

The problem there is the definition of "enough". A semiconductor house won't even talk to you about making a run of IC's unless you can show them enough volumes to justify the time and money. That typically means a substantial fraction of a million dollars to produce the first wafer with working parts on it. After the first wafer, each additional part is cheap, but you have to sell enough for the sales to more than cover that up-front investment.

The low return on "jellybean ICs" like opamps is one reason that many semiconductor makers have backed out of that part of the market, preferring to focus their $10B fab lines on ICs worth 10's or 100's of $.

If every person who reads this forum bought 100 jfet arrays, that still might not constitute enough volume to put a part into production.

The watchword in designing effects is to use parts intended for something else (and that some other niche has paid the freight to get and keep in the market) and then to cleverly abuse them in ways that please us. There are simply not enough of us, and MBA disease is too rampant.

The matched JFET arrays Mark referrs to were originally intended for use as analog switch arrays before CMOS did a better job. So we no longer have them to (ab) use as matched linear variable resistors.

Quote
And while it may be easy to clone a BMP in 2004, the information that is now taken for granted wasn't readily available (to my knowlege) in 1995.

I believe that my schemo for the BMP was up on Leper's Schematics archive, the first effects schematics site, in '95. But your point is correct. There are a whole generation of effects builders who have grown up with easily available cloning information. We as humans tend to think that whatever we find in a new situation is what has always existed, and that's not always - or even often - true.
R.G.

In response to the questions in the forum - PCB Layout for Musical Effects is available from The Book Patch. Search "PCB Layout" and it ought to appear.

D Wagner

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #147 on: February 18, 2004, 02:51:04 PM »
I just gotta chime in here....

First, thanks Mr. Huge for contributing to such a cool thread, and being so gracious to allow the fruits of your hard labor to be put on public display and dissected.

I know it must have been a hard road to get all of your pedals from concept to (breadboard, to testing, to prototype, to) the final result.  I was working on exactly the same thing as the WH Swollen Pickle, but apparently using the wrong transistor array.  I thought I was being innovative and breaking new ground...... A day late, and a dollar short. :(

To all of the WH nay sayers and detractors: back off!  Who can argue with a well constructed, great sounding pedal that people still covet for one reason or another?  

$500 for a WH pedal on E-Bay?  So what?  Some people have more $$ than common sense.  It may be a good value to them.  I wouldn't spend the money for a classic Strat, because I think that the prices are inflated.   It is all about supply and demand.

Thanks to everyone for such an entertaining and educational thread.  That's what this DIY stuff is about!

Derek

aron

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #148 on: February 18, 2004, 03:09:22 PM »
Quote
There are a whole generation of effects builders who have grown up with easily available cloning information. We as humans tend to think that whatever we find in a new situation is what has always existed, and that's not always - or even often - true.


Yes. Thanks to you, Jack,Justin,Jamie, Mark,tboy and many others that I have not mentioned that really helped me out in the beginning. It wasn't that long ago I tell you.

Discovering the information people freely gave was incredible.

Somicide

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #149 on: February 18, 2004, 03:17:55 PM »
I haven't put a word into this thread, mainly because I still have trouble with components (just ask downweverything about my onslaught of cap questions), but I'd like to say that I am eternally grateful for this community, and the readily available knowledge.  It lets the slow and uneducated such as myself catch up a lot quicker than trial and error would allow.  I've thoroughly enjoyed this discussion, despite a lack of understanding at points.  Thanks Mr. Huge for keeping it lively!
Peace 'n Love

MR COFFEE

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #150 on: February 18, 2004, 03:40:15 PM »
Jeorge and All,

Lighten up, people! I guess we need some more Emoticons. Anyone hear of tongue 'n cheek :?:  

 :o :oops: I didn't mean to sound sharp or trash Jeorge or Way Huge FX.  

I'm not saying Jeorge is a bad guy or putting him down. He seems like a quite decent human being to me AFAIK, and I really respect the fact he was able to start and run a small company and make a living selling FX boxes. That is no small accomplishment. And I agree Jeorge has helped people here in the past and contributed to the DIY community. I think it's cool he shared his reasons for using the quad array in his last post rather than leave newbies wondering. OK? Hear the respect, guys?

I'm just a tad frustrated and ribbing him about all the secretiveness and territoriality about posting the values of his tone control tweak and bobbletrox posting a reverse-engineered PCB layout. Sure it's your copyright, Jeorge, but what friggin' difference does it make? It's a pcb layout, not a Picasso! It's 3-5 hours work for a DIY'er. I'm not trying to take anyone's rights away, I'm just ribbing Jeorge for making an issue of his "rights" when I can't see how it makes the slightest bit of a difference to him at this point in time. I'm not flaming him for it.

I was attempting to rib Jeorge a bit about selling off some old stock of 'pickles at astronomical prices as a way of saying, "What's the big deal, Jeorge? Why the protectiveness? It's not like you're ZVEX who is still making a living by selling 'em. Do you imagine it helps you some way to keep the 'Pickle surrounded in murky unobtanium? What's the investment? I thought you were into sharing and contributing to the info base around here?"

Thanks to Jack and the other folks around here who helped reverse-engineer the 'Pickle, the "trade secret" is out that Jeorge copied Mike Matthews' (then defunct - it's 80's, not 90's) BigMuffPi circuit to start with, tweaked it and called it a really clever phallic name (I'd say even better than the Zvex Super Hard On), did the manufacturing and marketing thing, and made a go of it. Good for Jeorge. I'm happy for him. I'm sure a lot of other folks around here have dreams of doing something similar with their hobby. No sour grapes here :)  I had heard the name and always wondered what it was, probably like the 500 other people following this thread.

But now that the secret is out, I just don't get why Jeorge is so reluctant to claim credit and share what creative tweaking he did to the tone circuit like other folks do day-in-and-day-out around here? If it ain't ego getting in the way, I'm stumped. Or maybe he is selling that pickle over on ebay... (I'm just kidding, Jeorge, OK? I'm picking. I believe you when you say it's not money in your pocket anymore).

And if that sounds like "attacking" Jeorge to folks around here, well, sorry folks. I'm not feeling hostile toward anyone, trying to put Jeorge down, or laughing at him.  I don't mean it or see it that way. I'm just prodding him to think it through and get over it. <Eagles reference> Chiding, perhaps. Of course, I've never had any twinge of ego , myself :lol:  (I'm kidding people, get it?) Anyone else around here able to laugh at our humanity and think it's kosher to nudge each other when "the Dark side" <enter scary music> leads us to be overly possessive and witholding? Of course, I've never had any struggles with that in myself :lol:  

Personally, I think it would be much cooler and a lot more interesting if Jeorge would simple share the tone control values he used so we ALL could breadboard it and listen, maybe A-B it with the EH design - and it might spark some cool NEW tweaks/variations of tone controls. Build the craft, boys.

Jeorge, I wasn't slagging, I'm not slagging and I can't slag your 'Pickle because I've never heard it. I've never seen or played through one, and I for one sure don't plan to plunk down the $600 vintage price to see what I think of one. And yes, I don't think any fuzz box is worth $600 or any guitar is worth $20,000, but I'm not whining that what you charged was too high when you were in business or that vintage prices should be different. I really don't care. It's amazing what people can read into written text.

I've heard opinions that the 'Pickle is "great" and "has the best tone control they've ever heard", and I've heard people say it is "the worst BMP clone they've ever heard, go buy a Creamy-you-know-what." I don't have an opinion.

I value the opinions of people around here whose perceptions are less heavily influenced by marketing hype, high-priced "musical legends", interpersonal BS, and I'd really like to have a chance to hear their take on your mod. And I'd like to play with it on my breadboard so I could form my own opinion about it. If it don't happen, I think we'll all live.

Jeorge, it's entirely up to you..., well, unless, I suppose, Jack or someone decides to post a parts list without your blessings.

On the "rights" business:
I've sold some lucrative and pricey clones and custom tweaks over the years, and it puts money in my pocket. I support the "rights" of people who are willing to pay big bucks for music FX to impress clients that they should patronize their studio because they have such-and-such "vintage" or "custom-built/tweaked clone" piece of equipment in their "arsenal". (That metaphor cracks me up, too. Let's hear it for testosterone and pseudo-military bragging :lol:) It sorta makes business sense for them. I support people right to buy them for whatever purely emotional reasons they buy them (like Jeorge suggests, because some guitar hero had one).

I also think people have a "right" to feel ripped off when they buy something they have never heard, like say, ... a VOX Valvetone, based on advertising, hype, artist endorsements, etc., only to find out it is virtually identical in sound and circuitry to the Tube Screamer they've already got. Especially if they paid "vintage prices" for it. (Now people are going to think that's sour grapes about VOX, too, right? I can't win :cry:  ) (I'm kidding people. OK?)

Rights are a balance IMHO, and I'm in favor of candor and openness. The law doesn't require it, and people "have their rights". Just expressing my opinion.

And I like Jeorge's (and other's) sharing spirit around here a lot better than t'other.

BTW, I thought I heard he was working at Digitech. Sorry if that's in error and offends someone somehow...

To quote Jeorge, "Give me a break, I'm a guitar player!"
Bart

aron

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #151 on: February 18, 2004, 04:10:25 PM »
Quote
about posting the values of his tone control tweak and bobbletrox posting a reverse-engineered PCB layout.


Bart,

I can't speak for Jeorge, but from what I gather is that he doesn't mind if WE reverse his circuit and create our own PCB layout and schematic and post it here. Just don't use his.

It's as simple as that.

Quote
It's 3-5 hours work for a DIY'er.


OK, then anyone of us is free to devote this time to creating one.

Quote
I suppose, Jack or someone decides to post a parts list without your blessings.


As far as I know, it has been OK for Jack to post a reversed originally drawn schematic for this pedal for a long time.

You can PM Jeorge and Jack to ask them directly.

Quote
only to find out it is virtually identical in sound and circuitry to the Tube Screamer they've already got.


Does it sound identical? I know it's close circuitry-wise for sure.

Quote
I thought I heard he was working at Digitech. Sorry if that's in error and offends someone somehow...


It's an error, but doesn't offend me. I've worked with both companies before.

In the end, I think it's more than fair that Jeorge said that we can post a schematic of his pedal(s) as long as we reverse it oursleves and draw the schematics and layout ourselves.

Peter Snowberg

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #152 on: February 18, 2004, 05:06:55 PM »
Quote from: MR COFFEE
Jeorge and All,

Lighten up, people! I guess we need some more Emoticons. Anyone hear of tongue 'n cheek :?:  

 :o :oops: I didn't mean to sound sharp or trash Jeorge or Way Huge FX.  

If you go back and read your post, I for one don't see any tongue-in-cheek in there. Just a lot of accusations and misconceptions.  :roll:

-Peter
Eschew paradigm obfuscation

troubledtom

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #153 on: February 18, 2004, 05:24:20 PM »
i've talked to Jeorge 2 times on the phone and he was nothing short of being a helpful and cool gent.
             - tom

Mr.Huge

Alright all ready!
« Reply #154 on: February 18, 2004, 05:49:13 PM »
Don’t ever say I’m not charitable!
I prefer that people do the research them selves.
Here ya go Mr. Coffee, now go get a doughnut and relax.
-Mr. Huge

http://www.wayhuge.com/tonecontrol.pdf
BEN:   Mos Eisley Spaceport. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

LUKE:   But I was going into Toshi Station to pick up some power converters...

VADER:   I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Hal

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #155 on: February 18, 2004, 06:06:17 PM »
ok, back on topic (kinda), what about the transistor array makes the SP sound better than any BMP?  Is it just that the hFE's are matched, or what?

MR COFFEE

Thanks for sharing
« Reply #156 on: February 18, 2004, 06:49:14 PM »
Jeorge,

Thanks for sharing. And you are truly a charitable person.  :D
Bart

mnats

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #157 on: February 18, 2004, 07:08:22 PM »
Quote from: bobbletrox
Crud, there don't seem to be any distos in Australia with LM394s or NTE2321s.   :?


LM394CH: Woolworths...uh, Dick Smith stock number Z 6083

There were a bunch of them at my local store the last time I looked though that was a few months ago. If you can't get them I'll check again locally for you...

bobbletrox

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #158 on: February 18, 2004, 07:20:57 PM »
Whoa...Dick Smith have them?  They don't show up on their website  :?

I'll have to check out my local store...which location did you see them in?  I might be able to get them ordered in or something.

Thanks for the heads-up!

idlefaction

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #159 on: February 18, 2004, 08:21:59 PM »
thanks jeorge  :)

what kind of research did you do to end up with those values, out of interest?  it's been years since i played a SP, but i remember turning that tone knob and liking every single sound the whole way round.  at the time i remember thinking, 'man, whoever designed this must have done a lot of work getting it to sound this good the whole way round!'

or maybe you just threw some stuff in you liked, and it happened to nail all the sounds i like...   :P
Darren
NZ